Re: Thoughts can cause suicide if you don't have time to do therapy first!

[Guest guest]

Helena,

I don't know why you seem so upset by what I wrote but it seems my thoughts have had a powerful influence if they have made you unable to talk about it. Though you did:-)

I think you have taken my words literally and distorted what I was saying. I take full responsibility for my reactions to my thoughts when I am in a fit state. Medication can be powerful and produce a process of thinking that is not consistent with ACT. Similarly going without medication can make it difficult to behave in an ACT-consistent way I believe.

Medication affects thinking and it can affect thinking very quickly and leave you in a state where you cannot apply ACT. I say "can affect" not will.

If you look at my original post I deliberately wrote that thoughts could "end up" causing suicide, as thoughts can cause depression.

Louise

It almost sounds as though you are attacking me for not understanding ACT. I'm not sure why.

Subject: Thoughts can cause suicide if you don't have time to do therapy first!To: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 21 February, 2010, 19:09

“Thoughts can cause suicide if you don't have time to do therapy first!â€

This is so wrong that I can’t even talk about it.

Thoughts are not the culprit. If you think that, you have no understanding of ACT.

Helena

[Guest guest]

I apologise, Helena. I thought I had deleted that las sentence as even though I was admitting I felt attacked I thought it unwise to be that honest. As for mean spirited that was not my intention (but maybe it's just comes naturally?) but I really wish to avoid these discussions so am leaving this group. Not ACT, just this group. I deliberately didn't reply to your post before as I thought this might be the result. I have no wish to put anyone down but if that seemms to happen with great regularity then I'd rather practise avoidance.

Louise

Rollo May: "I would define mental health as the capacity to be aware of the gapbetween stimulus and response, together with the capacity to use this gapconstructively." (from The psychological bases of freedom, 1962)

From: Helena Rychener <hbbrcomcast (DOT) net>Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Thoughts can cause suicide if you don't have time to do therapy first!To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.comDate: Sunday, 21 February, 2010, 19:09

“Thoughts can cause suicide if you don't have time to do therapy first!â€

This is so wrong that I can’t even talk about it.

Thoughts are not the culprit. If you think that, you have no understanding of ACT.

Helena

[Guest guest]

Giving thoughts causal status is what our cultureand commonsense encourages. Oddly, inside that system, it becomestrue in a sense. But there is a way to step outside of that system.ACT is about how to do that. Outside of it, thoughts aren't causal

Suppose you were taught how to tie your shoe.At first it was laborious. Make a loop. Loop the other string around the loop.Make a hole. Pull the other string through. Pull both loops tight.Gradually it gets more automatic.

Eventually, after years and years, you do this as one integrated action.But if I did the first part of tying for you, and left you just with the finaltwo loops, you know exactly what to do: pull them tight.

In a sense the two loops now " cause " the pulling, based on a long history ofshoes and tying.Thoughts are like that. Young children have a hard time learning to be controlledby symbols and words, even their own. If you ask why they do things

they can't tell you. If you ask them to do things they have a hard time following theinstructions. Eventually children learn. We (now grown ups) learned. We learned to think and reason and problem solve.

We learned how to  tie the cognitive shoelace.Inside the system we live in normallythoughts are what they say they are. They require a response.

Once there are two cognitive loops there, we know how to pull.One loop: people don't like me. Another loop: I will feel better ifI stay away. Pull the cognitive loops tight: avoid people.

One loop: I feel awful. Life is not worth living.. Another loop: I will feel better if

I'm dead. Pull the cognitive loops tight: suicidal entanglement, attempts, or even

" successful " suicides

Problem is, lots and lots of things can put cognitive loops in front ofour mental hands. Logic will do it. History will do it. Abuse will do it.The TV will do it. An old bald guy can do it. Let me show you.

If the loops CAUSE the pulling we are helpless, and no in control of our life,because we do not control the loops.Imagine a person has this scary thought:I'd be better off _______.....

What just came to mind when you saw the _____? If you thought " dead " welcome to how this cognitive works.In this message I did NOT say (go back and look) " I'd be better off dead. "

But between the pixels on the screen and your history; between the " meaning " of words and the theme of thismessage from an old bald guy many of you have never met, up comes a word.For many of you it was " dead "

And there it is. There's a loop.I'd be better off _______.Now what?When a depressed person see that loop emerge the same question is there to be answered.What ACT teaches is how to let the loop be loops, and to keep our

hands off of them unless it is helpful to the kinds of lives we want to liveto put our hands on them and pull.If we can learn how to do that, thoughts are no longer causal.They were " cause " only inside a social / verbal stream. They were

" causal " only inside a system. We've made the shift to another system.Once there we can act more on the basis of what works for us and for others.That too is a system -- just a lot more vital one. It does not mean we should pull or not -- it means the

issue one of purpose and consequences.*****As I was typing this I saw some social back and forth.With permission: This is the same issue. When we feel offended or think we've been diss'ed that too is yet another

cognitive loop.Shall we pull or not?Well, sloooow it down. Put purpose in the system.The pause that comes from letting go of cognitive causality is our friend.Humaneness and values live inside that gap.

- S C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062hayes@... or stevenchayes@...

Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be): If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page or my blog at the ACBS site:  

http://www.contextualpsychology.org/steven_hayes http://www.contextualpsychology.org/blog/steven_hayes

or you can try my website (not really quite functional yet) stevenchayes.comIf you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at www.contextualpsychology.org

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“Thoughts can cause suicide if you don't have time to do therapy first!”

This is so wrong that I can’t even talk about it.

Thoughts are not the culprit.  If you think that, you have no understanding of ACT.

Helena

[Guest guest]

Crumbs, this list has become so important to me - thanks . Hey, Louise

don't go, you will miss it if you do. Bad feelings are only tempory if you allow

them go by.

Kavy

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