Guest guest Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Kaivey, This is the best post I have ever read from you. It reminds me of material I read in The Mindfulness Solution about vulnerability. It took a lot of courage to write and that alone should tell you something about yourself. At my job last year we went through a reorganization, and I took another role. For a time I remained in my old role, but like you, I did not feel comfortable with it. Many times it is not you at all, but the role and the things around it. We live in a fast-paced society that can be quite cruel to ordinary persons, and careless about their concerns. On a practical level, I'm not sure you would be successful in a management position until you get the better of your depression. On the other hand, you never know: if your depression largely stems from rumination, doing work that engages you might discourage the rumination and prove therapeutic. I think it's important to learn to accept things (arguably) beyond your control, such as the other fellow moving up in the ranks (I used arguably because there are things you can do that will influence all of that, but that's influence, not control), but acceptance is a hard thing to practice for many of us and remaining where you are will likely leave you frustrated. You also seem to have the pain of lost love and lost opportunities. When I took my new role, I shared my concerns about my depression with my manager. Later my reporting structure changed, and so I shared my struggles with my department's director and even the CIO, to whom I now report. I took many days off, and to their credit, while they sometimes wished I would have been more focused, they were very understanding. Recently I have managed to tackle my rumination successfully so that my depression is gone, though I still struggle with the usual anxieties any of us seem to. I had told all of them that I was not interested in a management role because I did not feel temperamentally suited to it because of my depression, but that has changed and I've shared that change of heart with them, as well. I think we're all holding our breaths over the economy. But, and I do not in any way mean to sound cavalier (because I am also a nervous homeowner), there are always options for us, such as buying a less expensive home, having room mates to help with the mortgage (my daughter does this), or moving into an apartment. I think taking the management training position would be a stretch, and quite challenging, so I think you should seriously consider it. No one on the list can put you on the hook or take you off - only you can do that - but we can support whatever decision you do make, and even if you elect to do nothing, the fact that you wrote this cool e-mail reflects ACT in practice, as far as I'm concerned. Cheers, Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Hey, thanks Neil, that's really nice. Just recently my depression went for a few hours after a holiday and I felt so different but the stress of work and exhaustion brought the whole thing back again. I can see that when the depression is not there how much easier everything is and how light and care free the world becomes. So I do actually feel this job is beyond me at the moment. What I want is less work so I can spend more time learning to play the guitar and keyboards but my manager has always loads of work so I could end up with even more to do. My stress levels have been high recently and some days at work things can get realy weird indeed. All of a sudden I can't think or understand the electronic diagrams or figure out what I'm doing. Everything goes inside out and looks strange and I can imagine the ambulance coming as I'm going into a complete breakdown. But I work throught it and survive. It would be terrifying to go throught this in a management position. Thanks for your support Neil. Kaivey > > Kaivey, > > This is the best post I have ever read from you. It reminds me of > material I read in The Mindfulness Solution about vulnerability. It > took a lot of courage to write and that alone should tell you something > about yourself. > > At my job last year we went through a reorganization, and I took another > role. For a time I remained in my old role, but like you, I did not > feel comfortable with it. Many times it is not you at all, but the role > and the things around it. We live in a fast-paced society that can be > quite cruel to ordinary persons, and careless about their concerns. > > On a practical level, I'm not sure you would be successful in a > management position until you get the better of your depression. On the > other hand, you never know: if your depression largely stems from > rumination, doing work that engages you might discourage the rumination > and prove therapeutic. I think it's important to learn to accept things > (arguably) beyond your control, such as the other fellow moving up in > the ranks (I used arguably because there are things you can do that will > influence all of that, but that's influence, not control), but > acceptance is a hard thing to practice for many of us and remaining > where you are will likely leave you frustrated. You also seem to have > the pain of lost love and lost opportunities. > > When I took my new role, I shared my concerns about my depression with > my manager. Later my reporting structure changed, and so I shared my > struggles with my department's director and even the CIO, to whom I now > report. I took many days off, and to their credit, while they sometimes > wished I would have been more focused, they were very understanding. > Recently I have managed to tackle my rumination successfully so that my > depression is gone, though I still struggle with the usual anxieties any > of us seem to. I had told all of them that I was not interested in a > management role because I did not feel temperamentally suited to it > because of my depression, but that has changed and I've shared that > change of heart with them, as well. > > I think we're all holding our breaths over the economy. But, and I do > not in any way mean to sound cavalier (because I am also a nervous > homeowner), there are always options for us, such as buying a less > expensive home, having room mates to help with the mortgage (my daughter > does this), or moving into an apartment. > > I think taking the management training position would be a stretch, and > quite challenging, so I think you should seriously consider it. No one > on the list can put you on the hook or take you off - only you can do > that - but we can support whatever decision you do make, and even if you > elect to do nothing, the fact that you wrote this cool e-mail reflects > ACT in practice, as far as I'm concerned. > > Cheers, > > Neil > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 -- Kaivey wrote: > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me > off the hook. Kaivey, I can't let you off the hook - first, because so much of what you say reminds me of my own suffering these days, meaning that I seem to be on a similar hook; and second, because I think it is cool that you have this scary opportunity to learn management skills. That does not mean I think you should or shouldn't do it. Only that the choice you are faced with seems to me to be both scary AND cool. Some days I seem to remember that the verbally constructed future is not the same as whatever the real future may turn out to be. Other days I decide it's all bunk and the future will be awful. And still other days I remember to be present. I don't have time to write any more just now, but you have asked some great questions, not just for yourself but all of us. --Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Hi Kaivey, could you take it one step at a time and just do the training? Even doing the training would give you opportunities to grow as an employee and a person. Say you finish the training and a position comes up you should be able to say 'no' if you don't want to do it. Also, having the training in addition to years of experience under your belt you might have a better chance finding a new job if you wanted to. Maybe as a manager of a much smaller team? I think going from not being a manager to managing 100 people is unrealistic, that's huge for anyone. keep us posted on how you go. > > Sorry this is long. > > This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown? > > A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job. > > Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear. > > Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears. > > I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. > > I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. > > With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people. > > From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. > > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook. > > Kaivey > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Hi Kaivey, Sounds like a tough choice. No answers for you, but a few thoughts: 1. A key element of ACT is learning to discriminate ‘advancing’ from ‘retreating’: there is generally far more vitality in advancing towards something important and meaningful than in retreating from something scary or difficult or painful. 2. You don’t have to take the new job in order to ‘advance’. If you stay in your current job, ask yourself, what can you do there that is advancing? For example, you mentioned how you would like to be more assertive, and more focussed at work – so what small steps can you take to advance in either or both of those directions? 3. Whether you choose to stay in your current job or take the new job, you will have fear and anxiety. Whichever choice you make, your mind will almost undoubtedly say ‘You made the wrong choice’. If you stay, you’ll have the fear of missing out. If you take the new one, you’ll have the fear of being unable to cope. Thus either way you choose, plenty of opportunity to practice defusion and expansion – and to simultaneously advance in valued directions. 4. Keep in mind there is no perfect solution to this situation. If there was one obvious answer, it wouldn’t be a dilemma in the first place. (To quote Bernard Shaw, ‘For every difficult situation, there is an answer that is simple, clear and wrong.’) However, the problem-solving machine doesn’t like to admit this; it will wear itself out trying to come up with ‘the right answer’, and if you’re not careful, it’s easy to spend the whole day wandering around lost in the psychological smog of ‘what should I do?’. A strategy that may be helpful is to put aside a short period each day where you do nothing but actively reflect on the issue, weighing up the pros and cons – and for the rest of the day, defuse form the story. (Eg say to yourself, ‘Thanks mind, there’s the “difficult choice story” again ... and having unhooked yourself, engage fully in whatever you are doing in that moment.) 5. Above all, be compassionate towards yourself, while you go through this. It is a tough situation, and it will bring up a lot of pain, whichever way you go. So be kind and caring to yourself, and do your best to unhook from all the ways your mind will try to beat you up over this. All the best, Cheers, Russ www.actmadesimple.com www.act-with-love.com www.thehappinesstrap.com www.actmindfully.com.au From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of Birgit Sent: Monday, 12 April 2010 8:55 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: A Dilemma Hi Kaivey, could you take it one step at a time and just do the training? Even doing the training would give you opportunities to grow as an employee and a person. Say you finish the training and a position comes up you should be able to say 'no' if you don't want to do it. Also, having the training in addition to years of experience under your belt you might have a better chance finding a new job if you wanted to. Maybe as a manager of a much smaller team? I think going from not being a manager to managing 100 people is unrealistic, that's huge for anyone. keep us posted on how you go. > > Sorry this is long. > > This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown? > > A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job. > > Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear. > > Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears. > > I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. > > I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. > > With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people. > > From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. > > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook. > > Kaivey > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Hey again Kaivey - I am posting again because so much of what you said resonated for me. Among the many wise things Russ just wrote was this: > Whichever choice you make, your mind will > almost undoubtedly say 'You made the wrong > choice'. I want to add that part of the allure of such thoughts is that the mind tells us that it is important to " understand " things. This is the pull of plausibility that can keep us locked into despair. Our culture gives us an enormous amount of reinforcement for defining who we are in terms of our success or failure at making money, increasing our status, etc. It is like invisible air pollution - these messages are always there in our social environment and most of us have incorporated them into parts of our automatic thinking. So when we experience a thought like " I made the wrong choice, " or " I am a failure, " we get the reinforcement of agreeing with the zillions of similar thoughts, not only in our head but in the heads of those around us. Even an expression of sympathy from someone who cares for us can sometimes be reinforcing of this view. It is like the logic a totalitarian regime uses in repressing its citizens: the fact you are in jail means you are guilty, because if you weren't guilty, you wouldn't be in jail. Right? I have found I can also look at this sort of stuckness with the chessboard metaphor. When I do I find a pattern that can take several hours from start to finish. It goes like this: 1) I start out aligning myself with the white pieces, in the form of " hopeful " thoughts ( " I really should take that job, I might learn something " ). 2) Naturally I try to evaluate these thoughts ( " But will it really work out? What if it produces too much stress? " ) so as to see if such thoughts are " true. " Actually, though, by now I am not even thinking in terms of " thoughts, " but in terms of the supposed " future " that these thoughts " refer to. " 3) My attempts at " truth-finding " lead me into a tangle of rules and worries, and I end up fusing with the black pieces on the board ( " It won't work out, I have to give up, I really am a total failure, " etc.). So - what to do about this? One thing that has been helpful for me is to spend a little more time outside the loop, so that I can more easily recognize when I am about to buy into this " hopeful > evaluation > hopeless " pattern of thought. In other words, I try and work on defusing skills each day. I find it helpful to remember that defusing is not " working on thoughts " (as if thoughts were the problem) nor is it " facing thoughts " (as if we must get ourselves in line, dammit). I like Russ's suggestions about defusion in the moment ( " There's that 'difficult choice' story again " ). And I also favor keeping up a formal mindfulness practice, even if just for a few minutes each day - especially on days when my mind tells me I don't have time for it. Plus I try and remember that since thinking hasn't gotten me all that far, I can experiment with " doing " instead. It has to do with what Okisutch posted a while back (message 7849) - here is part of that post: " When I have a feeling or a mood that is connected with thoughts like 'I can't go to that party " or " I feel too anxious today, I'll stay home,' I view this as an opportunity to learn through experience that my moods don't dictate what I can do or what will happen if I do some thing that the thoughts related to the mood suggest I cannot do. This learning has really loosened up the grasp of my moods on my behavior. I have a lot more choices now, I feel. This includes feeling like I don't want to learn something, and then learning it. " --Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 sorry this one is so short...when i have this many ideas going on as problems...i say: just come back to the present where life is actually at. DO it as much as you can. you can do it through activity or pausing in different ways...connecting with one breath for example. where there was no life, there will be some real life...which is what you need. BEFORE you solve all of these apparent problems. looks foolish or pointless to the mind. come back to life itself FIRST. then, your mind will function better...you can "see" what to do. i am not the Buddha, but he suggested it...so did Jesus and so does ACT. regards, jason To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Sun, April 11, 2010 7:27:15 AMSubject: A Dilemma Sorry this is long.This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown?A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job.Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear.Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears.I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people.From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook.Kaivey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Kaivey, Here is the big question: Does this move you in the direction of one of your values? If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter. If it DOES, then you have a choice. 1.) Do you listen to the word machine and give up before you start. 2.) Do you move towards a more vital life, no matter if you are depressed, anxious, tired, scared, Blah Blah Blah. Greg > > Sorry this is long. > > This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown? > > A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job. > > Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear. > > Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears. > > I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. > > I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. > > With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people. > > From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. > > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook. > > Kaivey > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Sounds like your depression is there in-part due to limiting yourself based on the anxiety you experience. A couple questions to ponder: What would you do if you didn't experience anxiety/depression? If this was someone else writing this, what advice would you give them? > > Sorry this is long. > > This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown? > > A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job. > > Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear. > > Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears. > > I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. > > I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. > > With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people. > > From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. > > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook. > > Kaivey > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Thanks for all the replies everyone. I have read them all but there is a lot to digest and so I will re-read them and comment later. Things seemed to go wrong again today, or perhaps it was a minor incident magnified by my mind, but I felt I had made a bad mistake at work but really I was just unlucky. I then became full of my usual remorse, guilt, and self blame, and the managent wasn't happy either. But I think the real problem is my lack of confidence/ assertiveness, and that I can be intimidated too easily. Russ mentioned 'self compassion' but there is absolutely none of that in my world. I came home from work this evening and fell into a restless sleep but I dreamt I was being tortured by gansters and when I woke up I felt the world was completetely hostile and friendless. It was at that point that I felt I had totally broken down. Still, I don't have a depressed mood, which is good, only extreme fear, which is almost just as bad. I have Cheri Huber's book next to me - which I haven't read yet - called 'The key, and The Name Of The Game is Willingness. I think the only way out is through and so I shall have to willingly suffer some more, and problably a lot more yet. Although this is a really horrible experience I have a hunch this could be a turning point. Right now all the things I have run away from all my life are out of the box dangling right in front of me and they are just as terrifying as the electric shock and the caustic acid of the gansters. I shall just have to be mindful and try to work things through and start slowly putting things back together. I don't know how this appears from the ACT point of view because there is an enormous struggle going on there. Thanks again, Kaivey > > Sorry this is long. > > This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown? > > A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job. > > Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear. > > Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears. > > I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. > > I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. > > With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people. > > From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. > > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook. > > Kaivey > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2010 Report Share Posted April 12, 2010 Kaivey, look no further to signs of your own courage and strength than your own path...you have handled every moment of your life thus far, it is only an illusion that you cannot handle the next... Remember, the " problem " is only in thought...when you are present, you are free keep us updated, and thank you for sharing such intimate moments best, vc > > > > Sorry this is long. > > > > This might be something that many people here using ACT have come up against. From an ACT point of view, should we always face our fears and go forward or are there times when the anxiety might be too painful and damaging and that we would be stupid to take on such fear which might cause a breakdown? > > > > A few years back I applied for a managers job but didn't get it but I think I wasn't up to it anyway. I would have had no staff below me but I would have been involved with design in a very high profile position working with different companies. I can't make decisions due to chronic depression and I also have no confidence so I would have been very stressed by this job. > > > > Recently my anxiety has been very high as I am getting older and so I'm getting the midlife crises. I didn't marry the girl I wanted, have a family I hopod for, and despite being very highly qualified, I just stayed on the shop floor doing a job I'm bored with and hate. I do loads of hours at work because I bought my house late in life because I couldn't motivate myself or I couldn't face the anxiety of moving. But I eventually went for it and it was hell. But I also made a big mistake: my mortgage was far too big and I had no momey and this was very disressing and caused me no end of fear. > > > > Just recently a young boy started at my work place as a filling clark but within a few months he became a manager. He knows nothing about the building trade but previously he had run a restaurent and had a very good management qualification. Many of us were taking back by it and I have found it hard to cope with too. I have recieved a couple of disciplines from him due to my forgetfulness and this is hard for me to swallow. It makes me feel such a failure to have not moved up the ladder and not take on my fears. > > > > I recently got a letter from my company who have noticed my qualifications and asked me if I would like to train as a manager for the next 18 months. Theres no guaranteed job at the end but they want people already trained as managers for when they need them. This type of manager is different from the last one I went for and I will be in charge of about a hundred people on a building site. > > > > I now find myself consumed by fear. I'm fed up with the overtime I do and fed up with doing a very difficult job on the shop floor. I'm an electronics engineer and everything is controlled by computers nowadays and the faults are maddening and difficult to put right and I'm always stressed by it. I fear I'm slow and not up to it but really the problem is I am not very good at being assertive with the management by telling them I can't really do all this amount of work all the time. But the management job scares me too because of my nervous illness- but wow, to not have to work those Saturdays anymore and have weekends off. > > > > With 30 years of chronic depression and low self esteem would becoming a manager be a stupid thing to do as I will certainly suffer considerably but I might get used to it so perhaps I should risk it. I'm no good at confrontation and I feal quite nervous in front of people. > > > > From an ACT point of view perhaps my problem is feeling bad about my lack of achievemt in life and perhaps I should work on these thoughts instead. Or, from an ACT point of view, perhaps I should face the anxiety and go for it. I won't actually become a manager and so I don't have to take the job in the end if I don't like it so I can't loose. But boy oh boy, I don't think I can handle anymore suffering at the moment. I've been through the wringer recenltly and I have never felt so much fear but I have taken this on even though my body has been destroyed, i.e, if I don't sleep at all at night I will still go to work and just throw myself into it even though I can't think clearly and I crave to rest. Right now my fear is high and I feal absolutely wrecthed. > > > > What do you think? I guess I'm hoping someone will let me off the hook. > > > > Kaivey > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2010 Report Share Posted April 16, 2010 Hi kaivey here is rather a long answer To answer your first question, sometimes the things that are scariest are the ones that seem to have a nugget of our values at their centre. Maybe its not wise to rush and tackle them head on, but take small steps, because our own experience (at least mine!) shows how if we get caught up in avoidance then our world just gets smaller and smaller, and the lack of meaning can make the smaller space emptier. I also have a dilemma, with some similarities to yours. For some years I have been going to a centre. They decided a while ago that they wanted to close it at the weekends, and just have it staffed during the week. They wanted it to be run by volunteers at the weekend and they ran a training course. When they came up with the idea I knew that no way did I want to be the one with the responsibility of being in charge, and also worried about the 'them and us' culture, being seen as 'going over to the dark side of management'. I also suspected that the other people who go to the centre would just run rings around me! About 3 or 4 years ago I did have a short attempt at co-facilitating a group there, and that used to make me feel ill afterwards and I gave up before the end of my 2 month commitment (I did that as part of pattern smashing from GOOYM & ILY). When the time came, they didnt proceed as planned with their grand launch because they didnt have enough volunteers, though those that completed the training trained shadowed the staff and then opened on their own once. In january they announced that they would close at weekends (starting the following weekend!), and would re-run the training course soon (eventually it began end of february). This was more the type of pressure I was expecting, the unstated if you want the service you have to do it yourself. I still didnt feel that I wanted to be a volunteer, but had found that the loss of the centre as a safe place to go at the weekend has had quite an impact on me, and it must also have impacted on others, so to me its important that its provided. Possibly here at the back of my mind, though I didnt think of it till today when I was trying to write this down, several years back when I had an opportunity to do a training course, someone else noticed I had turned it into a 'big decision' which lots of other things might or might not follow on from. She said why not try not making a decision, just turn up the first day and then see what I thought? Having talked it over with someone, I thought maybe I could do the training and then see, without making a commitment. So I spoke to them and they said the training mostly revolved around assertiveness, which I had done with them before, they thought I could do it, and my informal chat turned out to be my informal interview and acceptance on the training course (with the proviso that if it was popular and someone who was commited to being a volunteer wanted my place they would throw me off). I have now completed the training, theyre not making people apply now, and that everyone who has completed (8 out of 17) has been accepted. My 'get out of it by not applying' has disappeared. The manager will have a chat with each of us to see if we are ready yet, and will decide who starts first when they launch in May! So now I have what they deem to be enough appropriate assertiveness skills, but I dont want to be a volunteer, I have to decide if the service is important enough for me to take a turn in providing it. Am I more worried about making a commitment, or being in charge? I cant answer that. I did have a random corridor conversation with one of the other trainee volunteers, who I didnt know before the training started, and I told him that I didnt think I would actually do the volunteering, he expressed the opinion that he thought that would be a loss, which I thought was really nice of him - and it was genuine I could tell he wasnt just saying it for the sake of it. I guess it took me slightly by surprise too, to be thought of as someone who was contributing to the team of trainee volunteers,because I had just been 'showing up'. In your situation, because I seem to find it easier to make big decisions by sidling up to them, I would be tempted to follow birgit's idea, write back and say I was interested in doing the training, could I make an appointment of 15 minutes or so to discuss it in more detail? Then in that meeting I might say that I felt I needed more assertiveness skills in order to have what I said taken seriously, and would that be the sort of thing included in the training? What else would they cover? Then I might decide that a bit more assertiveness could be good, and just give the training a try. BUt then maybe thats not really facing the issues that matter to you. I think I have about 2 or 3 weeks to decide good luck j > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2010 Report Share Posted April 17, 2010 Sounds like you have made quite a leap forward, J. and I reckon you are going to make a succes of it. As for assertiveness training in my company I don't think so, they would expect me to be a bruiser to start with. I found out that loads of people got these letters about applying for trainee manager and that I will have to do a interview. I will problably apply but be really surprised - and worried - if I get it. I have found myself feeling competive lately because I think that some w*nker who I work with, who is monstrious when he gets some power, might go for it. He gave me a hard time when he attempted to be the foreman before, but he stopped it because the money wasn't good enough. I'm far more qualified than him. I did 11 years worth of college but doing 18 months more worth of trianing and college courses doesn't excite me at all. I just love playing my guitar when I'm home, or learning the keyboards, so you can see the decision isn't straight forward. I have no intention of going any higher - I just want a cushy life. I jst want to realx and have some fun the last part of my life. The manager job is two positions up so I will be leaping a grade. Still, my manager puts in about 60 hours a week or more and I do 55 hours, and yet I earn't £2000 more than him last year, because I get paid overtime, so going for the post isn't about the money. I think it is about self esteem and that I might have outgrown being on the shop floor after all these years. The pension will be better as well. Thanks for your reply. Kaivey > > > > > > > > > > > Hi kaivey > > here is rather a long answer > > To answer your first question, sometimes the things that are scariest are the ones that seem to have a nugget of our values at their centre. Maybe its not wise to rush and tackle them head on, but take small steps, because our own experience (at least mine!) shows how if we get caught up in avoidance then our world just gets smaller and smaller, and the lack of meaning can make the smaller space emptier. > > I also have a dilemma, with some similarities to yours. > > For some years I have been going to a centre. They decided a while ago that they wanted to close it at the weekends, and just have it staffed during the week. They wanted it to be run by volunteers at the weekend and they ran a training course. When they came up with the idea I knew that no way did I want to be the one with the responsibility of being in charge, and also worried about the 'them and us' culture, being seen as 'going over to the dark side of management'. I also suspected that the other people who go to the centre would just run rings around me! About 3 or 4 years ago I did have a short attempt at co-facilitating a group there, and that used to make me feel ill afterwards and I gave up before the end of my 2 month commitment (I did that as part of pattern smashing from GOOYM & ILY). > > When the time came, they didnt proceed as planned with their grand launch because they didnt have enough volunteers, though those that completed the training trained shadowed the staff and then opened on their own once. > > In january they announced that they would close at weekends (starting the following weekend!), and would re-run the training course soon (eventually it began end of february). This was more the type of pressure I was expecting, the unstated if you want the service you have to do it yourself. I still didnt feel that I wanted to be a volunteer, but had found that the loss of the centre as a safe place to go at the weekend has had quite an impact on me, and it must also have impacted on others, so to me its important that its provided. > > Possibly here at the back of my mind, though I didnt think of it till today when I was trying to write this down, several years back when I had an opportunity to do a training course, someone else noticed I had turned it into a 'big decision' which lots of other things might or might not follow on from. She said why not try not making a decision, just turn up the first day and then see what I thought? > > Having talked it over with someone, I thought maybe I could do the training and then see, without making a commitment. So I spoke to them and they said the training mostly revolved around assertiveness, which I had done with them before, they thought I could do it, and my informal chat turned out to be my informal interview and acceptance on the training course (with the proviso that if it was popular and someone who was commited to being a volunteer wanted my place they would throw me off). > > I have now completed the training, theyre not making people apply now, and that everyone who has completed (8 out of 17) has been accepted. My 'get out of it by not applying' has disappeared. The manager will have a chat with each of us to see if we are ready yet, and will decide who starts first when they launch in May! > > So now I have what they deem to be enough appropriate assertiveness skills, but I dont want to be a volunteer, I have to decide if the service is important enough for me to take a turn in providing it. Am I more worried about making a commitment, or being in charge? I cant answer that. > > I did have a random corridor conversation with one of the other trainee volunteers, who I didnt know before the training started, and I told him that I didnt think I would actually do the volunteering, he expressed the opinion that he thought that would be a loss, which I thought was really nice of him - and it was genuine I could tell he > wasnt just saying it for the sake of it. I guess it took me slightly by surprise too, to be thought of as someone who was contributing to the team of trainee volunteers,because I had just been 'showing up'. > > In your situation, because I seem to find it easier to make big decisions by sidling up to them, I would be tempted to follow birgit's idea, write back and say I was interested in doing the training, could I make an appointment of 15 minutes or so to discuss it in more detail? Then in that meeting I might say that I felt I needed more assertiveness skills in order to have what I said taken seriously, and would that be the sort of thing included in the training? What else would they cover? > Then I might decide that a bit more assertiveness could be good, and just give the training a try. BUt then maybe thats not really facing the issues that matter to you. > > I think I have about 2 or 3 weeks to decide > > good luck > j > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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