Re: Using 3 Estradots at Once!

[Guest guest]

Research does not support the reliability of saliva tests for ascertaining estradiol levels.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of rosette_ohara

started Oestrogel from Masters 9 months ago. I thought it would be more like endogenous estrogen, but was horrified recently when I sent off some saliva tests and discovered that my estradiol level was way above physiologic levels.

..

[Guest guest]

God what a nightmare! I know. I feel the SAME way. NONE of my

friends are having any problems like this. SOME have hot flashes but

nothing else to speak of. It just sucks! I'm scared of too high

doses of E too. I get all kinds of tumors in my body as it is!

I don't like ORAL - so forget that! So the Oestrogel didn't work

either? It didn't do a thing for me. It didn't work! What are you

doing to do now?

>

> When I first began this descent into hell called menopause 11

years ago, I tried Estraderm

> patches. The strongest one did not help me, so I added the half-

strength, and I was still

> having horrible hot flushes, migraines, etc., etc. Then I went to

oral for 10 years and was

> OK, but started Oestrogel from Masters 9 months ago. I thought it

would be more like

> endogenous estrogen, but was horrified recently when I sent off

some saliva tests and

> discovered that my estradiol level was way above physiologic

levels. Aeron Labs mentions

> on their website that this happens in some cream/gel users because

the SHBG gets

> overwhelmed by the sudden large dose in the skin, and the excess

goes into the salivary

> glands. I think it also goes into the sweat glands, as I was

suffering underarm gland

> swelling.

>

> I just didn't feel like this was a good idea to have these super-

high estrogen levels

> anywhere in my body, so I decided to try the patch again. I put on

TWO of the highest dose

> (100 mcg) Estradots yesterday morning, and it STILL wasn't enough.

I started having a bit

> of a migraine that never got better or worse, so I added the

smallest dot, which is a 25

> mcg. So far, that has gotten me through 36 hours, but I think the

dots are about to wear

> off as my face is getting a wee bit flushed now. I'm hoping that

these 3 patches will last at

> least 2 days, as it is going to be expensive to wear 3 at once.

I'll do another salivary test in

> a month to see if the estradiol level has declined to normal after

I am sure of my dose.

>

> The female hormone system is so complex that it drives me crazy. I

am so envious of

> women like my sister who never had any problems during adolescence

OR menopause. I

> remember when I was 11 (50 years ago!), I couldn't wait to get my

period so I could be

> " grown-up " like my friends. At 12 I started my lifetime of

hormonal suffering with cramps

> every month that were the equivalent of labor pains. No NSAIDs or

birth control pills back

> then. Girls with cramps were thought to be resisting growing up

and offered no pain relief

> because it was " all in our heads " .

>

[Guest guest]

<Research does not support the reliability of saliva tests for ascertaining estradiol levels> Please tell me where I can read about this, since I'm doing very well at age 55 on saliva-tested levels for estradiol, progesterone and testosterone. And I'm using creams for each of these and having no problems whatsoever. I've been using them for five years. Virginia

[Guest guest]

A couple of studies are posted below your message. If you are doing fine with your regimen, then that is good.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Virginia Speaks

<Research does not support the reliability of saliva tests for ascertaining estradiol levels>

Please tell me where I can read about this, since I'm doing very well at age 55 on saliva-tested levels for estradiol, progesterone and testosterone. And I'm using creams for each of these and having no problems whatsoever. I've been using them for five years.

.. ________________________________________________

Maturitas. 2002 Jan 30;41(1):1-6.

Caution on the use of saliva measurements to monitor absorption of progesterone from transdermal creams in postmenopausal women. JG, McGill H, Patton VM, Elder PA.Steroid and Immunobiochemistry Laboratory, Canterbury Health Laboratories, P.O. Box 151, Christchurch, New Zealand. john.lewis@...OBJECTIVES: To determine the levels of progesterone in plasma, red cells and saliva as well as pregnanediol-3-glucuronide excretion in postmenopausal women using transdermal progesterone creams. METHODS: A double-blind placebo controlled study was carried out using 24 postmenopausal women. Creams (placebo, 20 or 40 mg progesterone/g) were applied twice daily for 3 weeks followed by 1 week without before a further 3-week treatment. Morning samples were collected at 0, 1, 3, 4, 7 and 8 weeks for analysis. RESULTS: There were small increases in plasma progesterone levels and pregnanediol-3-glucuronide excretion compared to the placebo group and red cell progesterone levels never exceeded plasma levels during progesterone cream use. Saliva progesterone levels were very high and variable in the progesterone cream groups compared to the placebo group and presented a paradox to the usual relationship observed between plasma and saliva progesterone in premenopausal women. CONCLUSION: The absorption of progesterone from transdermal creams is low and we caution against the use of saliva measurements to monitor progesterone absorption. The low systemic absorption of progesterone may not be due to peripheral conversion by 5 alpha-reductase(s). We also conclude that the low level of progesterone associated with red cells suggests they are not important in the delivery of progesterone to target tissues.

Climacteric. 2000 Sep;3(3):155-60.

Comment in:

· Climacteric. 2000 Sep;3(3):153-4.Effect of sequential transdermal progesterone cream on endometrium, bleeding pattern, and plasma progesterone and salivary progesterone levels in postmenopausal women.Wren BG, McFarland K, L, O'Shea P, Sufi S, Gross B, Eden JA.Sydney Menopause Centre, Royal Hospital for Women, Barker Street, Randwick, New South Wales 2031, Australia.BACKGROUND: Transdermal progesterone is being used in some countries as a purported treatment for menopausal symptoms, either alone or prescribed in conjunction with estrogen, but little information exists regarding the biological activity and effectiveness of this method of delivery of progesterone in protecting the endometrium from excess proliferation. This study was designed to evaluate the use of sequential transdermal progesterone. End-points evaluated included endometrial cellular response and bleeding pattern as well as plasma hormone levels and salivary progesterone estimations. METHOD: Twenty-seven postmenopausal women were treated with continuous transdermal estrogen (28-day cycle) and a cream containing 16, 32 or 64 mg of progesterone in each 4-cm extrusion from a tube of Pro-Feme administered daily in a sequential (days 15-28 of cycle) regimen. Blood and endometrial samples were analyzed for progesterone response prior to therapy, after the first 14 days of unopposed transdermal estrogen and following 14 days of transdermal progesterone. Saliva samples were taken during the last 14 days of the 84-day study, when the final progesterone cream therapy was being applied. RESULTS: Hormone assay indicated that physiological levels of estradiol were achieved, but progesterone levels were insufficient to induce any detectable change in the endometrium. Only one patient experienced bleeding during the study period. Levels of salivary progesterone were so variable as to be considered completely unreliable in determining the potential influence on biological activity. INTERPRETATION: Pro-Feme transdermal progesterone administered in a 16-, 32- or 64-mg daily dose for 14 days in a sequential regimen does not appear to be effective in inducing a secretory change in a proliferative endometrium. Salivary progesterone levels were not of value in managing the therapy of postmenopausal women.

[Guest guest]

Has anyone her heard about covering the dots with Tegraderm for more "bang" from the dot, so to speak? I was reading about it over at Hystersisters.

The fish are biting.

Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, that is " Tegaderm " , not Tegraderm. It's a wound adhesive

covering that " breathes " .

>

> Has anyone her heard about covering the dots with Tegraderm for more

" bang " from the dot, so to speak? I was reading about it over at

Hystersisters.

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> The fish are biting.

> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

>

[Guest guest]

>

I've been doing the Vivelle Dot E patch for over a year now and have

found it best to stager them. This means putting them on at even time

intervals. And also leaving the old ones one for 4 days. At any given

time I have 5 on. I put them below the bikini line and place them in a

clock wise manner to know which one is the oldest each time. I use to

write a number on them to keep track, but now this clockwise manner

seems to work. The absorption, according to the insert, is 10% higher

if placed on the backside. I didn't have luck with them staying

adhered as well back there from fabric friction, etc.

Eileen

> 5:52 am (PST)

> Rosette,

>

> How are you doing with the dots? Are you still on the first 2? Where

> did you

> apply them? The directions said on the belly. I thought someone said

> the

> butt was best. I am beginning the patch experiment also. I hope they

> will do

> the trick. I have tried everything else. What about adding P? Will

> you add

> an additional patch then? I am looking for any ideas for finding my

> correct

> dose. I only bought the 100mcg patches, but your idea sounded great.

>

> I don't know whether wearing 2 at a time, or changing it each day

> would give

> me a better result. One is not enough at this point.

>

> Thanks, nne

[Guest guest]

Using 5 dots at once at various stages of absorption would REALLY confuse me,

Eileen!

Have you tried just using a stronger dose? Like I said in my last post, I think

if you use a

strong enough dose to begin with, you may find that it lasts the whole 3 & 1/2

days.

nne, I don't think you can figure out your dose in one week. I am still

working out my

right dose 10 days later, though I am very close now. I think it helps to start

out with

MORE than you think you need, and then titrate downwards until sore breast

symptoms, if

any, are gone. That way you won't have to suffer the really bad deficiency

symptoms while

you are working out your best dose. It also helps to have all the dose sizes on

hand while

you are discovering exactly what you need. I bought one box of each size,

knowing that I

can always combine them and there will be no wasted ones.

Once I find the right dose, I will buy the Master's Estradot boxes that have 24

per package,

assuming my correct dose turns out to be 150 mcg like I think it will. When you

buy in that

quantity, the price drops from about $3 to $2 per patch. At 4 total patches per

week, that

would only be $32 a month. That's almost as cheap as the co-pay on my

prescription

insurance. ----Rosette

>

> Eileen,

>

> So in reality you are using 5 patches worth per day, in various stages of

> absorption. Is that right? Did you have a hard time convincing your doctor?

> Do they know you leave the old ones on? I have an appointment with mine in a

> week, and wanted to have my dose figured out ahead of time. I know he will

> fight the insurance company if need be, and I want to ask for the highest

> amount I can get. I figure I can always use less. I haven't added any P in

> yet, so I am sure I will need more dots at that time also. So far I am

> feeling better with the dots than I have with all the other E means. I have

> been struggling with this for 2 years. I've tried it all, and this is the

> best.

>

> Thanks for your help,

>

> nne

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosette,

When I ordered the last time, I was

ordering gel, and thought I would try 1 box of 8 dots. Then you posted about

your dotting idea, so I tried the dots before the gel. Now I like the dots but don’t

have many until my next order arrives. I also have a lot of unopened gel.

I looked at the boxes of 24, but they were

a different name. Are you sure they are the same thing?

Thanks for the ideas!

nne

nne, I don't think you can figure out your dose

in one week. I am still working out my

right dose 10 days later, though I am very close now. I think it helps to start

out with

MORE than you think you needOnce I find the right dose I will buy the Master's

Estradot boxes that have 24 per package,

assuming my correct dose turns out to be 150 mcg like I think it will. When you

buy in that

quantity, the price drops from about $3 to $2 per patch. At 4 total patches per

week, that

would only be $32 a month. That's almost as cheap as the co-pay on my

prescription

insurance. ----Rosette

[Guest guest]

>

Rosette:

It's fairly simple actually. I simply put on a new patch each morning.

And the .1 IS the strongest V Dot you can get. This is where I am. I

simply take off the oldest one each morning and put on a new one. For

me it seems there is little left in a patch after 3 or 4 days but I

keep it there for whatever it gives. My main goal is to keep steady

levels and a new one each morning assures this. I have NO low E

periods any more at all. I did when I was using gel to boost my patch.

My E stays over 300, closer to 350 and then some with this protocol

Eileen.

>

>

> Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:08 am (PST)

> Using 5 dots at once at various stages of absorption would REALLY

> confuse me, Eileen!

> Have you tried just using a stronger dose? Like I said in my last

> post, I think if you use a

> strong enough dose to begin with, you may find that it lasts the

> whole 3 & 1/2 days.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for tipping me off that the boxes of 24 are not Estradots, but

Estraderms. I know from experience that different manufacturers'

products can give you different results, even though they claim the

strength is the same. I haven't used Estraderms in 11 years but

remember that the patches were big and uncomfortable back then. Even

the 100 + 50 sizes worn at the same time left me with major menopause

symptoms. Does anybody use Estraderm? If so, could you tell me the

size of the patches and how comfortable they are? I will just try one

box of 8 Estraderms until I see how they compare to these wonderful

Estradots.

I have decreased to a 100 mcg plus 50 mcg and am doing fine. Next I

will try decreasing to a 100 mcg plus 25 mcg. I noticed something on

the label of the individual patches (not on the boxes) which I had

not seen before. They give the equivalent mg. estradiol, and I guess

this is the oral equivalent. I will list the equivalents here for

those who have taken oral, know their proper dose, and would like to

switch to the Estradots.

25 mcg Estradot= 0.39 mg. estradiol per 24 hours; 37.5 mcg

Estradot= 0.585 mg. estradiol per 24 hours; 50 mcg Estradot= 0.78 mg.

estradiol per 24 hours; 75 mcg Estradot= 1.17 mg. estradiol per 24

hours; 100 mcg Estradot= 1.56 mg. estradiol per 24 hours.

Since I took 2 mg. estradiol per day of Estrace (oral), I can see why

the strongest patch did not work for me. I would need at least a 100

mcg and a 25 mcg patch at the same time to equal 1.95 mg. oral

estradiol. I think I will be able to drop to exactly that dose next

time I change my patches.

I have a lot of unused Oestrogel, too, about 24 boxes! (I'm always

afraid I will be unable to get estrogen in the future, and since it

is so essential to me, I stock up!) However, I will never use the gel

again since discovering that the excess estrogen was being stored in

my sweat glands. My underarm swelling and pain has gone down

significantly since stopping the Oestrogel. And why use mg. amounts

when you can use mcg. amounts and have it released slowly and

continuously the way our bodies did it when we were young? Besides, I

always worried that I was going to transfer the estrogen to my cat

when I used the gel. I put it on my legs or arms, and my cat is this

compulsive licker. I never had a cat before that licks me every time

I pet her, but it seems like it is something she HAS to do. She will

lick the air when I comb her if she can't get to my arm or leg! ----

Rosette

>

> Hi Rosette,

>

> When I ordered the last time, I was ordering gel, and thought I

would try 1

> box of 8 dots. Then you posted about your dotting idea, so I tried

the dots

> before the gel. Now I like the dots but don't have many until my

next order

> arrives. I also have a lot of unopened gel.

>

>

>

> I looked at the boxes of 24, but they were a different name. Are

you sure

> they are the same thing?

>

> Thanks for the ideas!

>

> nne

[Guest guest]

Whatever works for you is good, Eileen. I did try the Vivelle dots,

and I didn't think they were as comfortable as these Estradots. I

used the strongest (.1), which just didn't do the job. The Vivelle

dots might have worked if I had used a .1 plus a smaller one, though.

I wonder how many women find the .1 is not strong enough and give up

on the dots, saying " Patches just don't work for me. " ? It apparently

never occurs to doctors that some women need more than the .1 dose.It

is a shame they don't have a stronger strength, but the doctors' new

motto is " As little estrogen as possible for as short a time as

possible " . MY motto is " Estrogen forever! " I cannot live without it.--

-Rosette

In rhythmicliving , " Atlanta Girl "

wrote:

> Rosette:

> It's fairly simple actually. I simply put on a new patch each

morning.

> And the .1 IS the strongest V Dot you can get. This is where I

am. I

> simply take off the oldest one each morning and put on a new one.

For

> me it seems there is little left in a patch after 3 or 4 days but I

> keep it there for whatever it gives. My main goal is to keep

steady

> levels and a new one each morning assures this. I have NO low E

> periods any more at all. I did when I was using gel to boost my

patch.

> My E stays over 300, closer to 350 and then some with this

protocol

>

> Eileen.

>

[Guest guest]

This is very interesting Rosette. When I

took oral timed released E, I used 6mg a day. I think I will need the 1 new

patch a day, while leaving the other 4 on. At the moment I am supplementing the

patch with oral until more arrive. It is currently a much smoother ride

than anything I have tried in 2 years. nne

25 mcg Estradot= 0.39 mg. estradiol per 24 hours; 37.5 mcg

Estradot= 0.585 mg. estradiol per 24 hours; 50 mcg Estradot= 0.78 mg.

estradiol per 24 hours; 75 mcg Estradot= 1.17 mg. estradiol per 24

hours; 100 mcg Estradot= 1.56 mg. estradiol per 24 hours.

Since I took 2 mg. estradiol per day of Estrace (oral), I can see why

the strongest patch did not work for me. I would need at least a 100

mcg and a 25 mcg patch at the same time to equal 1.95 mg. oral

estradiol. I think I will be able to drop to exactly that dose next

time I change my patches.