Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

[Guest guest]

, you raise some very good issues that concern me as well.

I would like to comment on them, yet I'm finding your post very

difficult to read due to the absence of paragraph breaks.

Typically I find myself deleting these sort of posts unread, as they

take far too much time and energy. But you bring up such great ideas

that I hesitate to do that here.

Could you please re-format your post in a more reader-friendly manner,

then resend it?

Many thanks,

~CJ

wrote:

>

> I am wondering or pondering on how difficult it is to really define AS

> when personality plays such a huge part in human ways of behaviour,

> regardless of the wiring...I can see definite common patterns in what is

> called AS, but think it may be dangerous or erroneous for us NT's to

> attribute many aspects of behaviour, exclusively to AS...I don't see a

> direct connection with AS and abuse of any sort..there are nasty NTs

> everywhere as well. It seems to me that " Ongoing Traumatic

> Relationship Syndrome " , or at least the circumstances that may cause a

> person to fit that experience is not limited to AS or autism or anything

> in particular, other than personalities and their particular

> development...or the combination of two personalities relating to each

> other. I haven't always thought this way, but it seems to me that the

> most distressing situations usually arise when there are expectations or

> a need to change the other person. If a partner cannot or will not give

> us what we need, can we not accept that fact and based upon our idea of

> how we want to live our life, make a sound decision to either live with

> that or let it go? And does that not apply to any partnership, AS or

> not? Could it not be, that what we often think of as love, is some kind

> of emotional dependance? And, if we can recognize that, maybe we need

> to work on ourselves first to overcome a dependance, and begin to just

> enjoy what there is to enjoy...obviously, if the relationship is hell,

> overcoming the dependance would also help us, by giving us the freedom

> and confidence to move on...After taking care of my dying grandmother

> who was in a vegetative state for the last 7 months of her life, I

> experienced a new way of being with an individual I loved dearly but was

> completely unable to be in my world . The experience was a priviledge.

> After her death, I began to question everything I had perceived before

> and started on a sort of quest for truth and understanding of humans,

> relationships and culture. I developed a very close friendship with my

> boyfriend's father, who I now realize is AS. He's in his 80's and

> trains horses...he's given me a new perspective on horse training, but

> more importantly a new way to look at life, love and people. Many would

> often ask me what is so special about the relationship...I came to the

> conclusion that it was the first time in my life that anyone had

> accepted me for who I am, and I have been able to do the

> same...therefore, any time we spend together is always sincere and

> joyful...often disagreeing with each other on methods, or ideas, but

> still being able to be in the moment and never measuring or keeping

> notes on who gives what...When the friendship developed, I began to

> examine my other relationships and my whole perspective

> changed...although i am very happy with my communicative, emotionally

> sensitive and expressive NT ways, I found that a good chunk of the

> " feeling " (NT) world of people I knew were emotionally needy and

> insecure and often manipulate, or demand, etc... in order to compensate

> for it, which doesn't seem to have much to do with loving someone...Very

> difficult to have a sincere or healthy relationship of any sort when

> that exists and it's so common! I don't want to generalize on

> anything,...there are all sorts of people out there... I just think

> many of these issues are over simplified by being labeled one thing, or

> another. My boyfriend and I have the same type of honest relationship

> but obviously more involved...I didn't know anything about AS a few

> months ago but just found my boyfriend and his father to be very special

> people, with different personalities, but very " peculiar " traits common

> to both...and being around them is liberating for me...I can just be me,

> and enjoy them, being them. There is love and honesty. Most NT's I know

> would not be able to stand either of them, even as friends, because they

> could not fill many typical expectations, as their concept of friendship

> (NT) has a different base... " I give you this, you give me that..if you

> don't give me what I expect or hope for, I am dissappointed " the

> struggles begin... They don't work that way..it's more like " I give you

> this because I want to, and there is no need for you to return anything "

> and that works both ways! If the personalities fit, and there is common

> ground, then it just flows. Our partners NT or AS don't have to be our

> everything..life is awfully short to spend it in a struggle trying to

> achieve that, which seems to me is neither healthy, nor reasonable, nor

> reachable...I can see THAT struggle causing a real trauma! There is a

> whole world out there to help fill in the gaps! I hope I have not

> offended anyone...not my intention. I don't question that there is

> suffering that can cause trauma in relationships, but I think blaming AS

> as the source is too simple for such a complex mix of components as

> exists in human relationships and emotions.

[Guest guest]

I am wondering or pondering on how difficult it is to really define AS when personality plays such a huge part in human ways of behaviour, regardless of the wiring...I can see definite common patterns in what is called AS, but think it may be dangerous or erroneous for us NT's to attribute many aspects of behaviour, exclusively to AS...I don't see a direct connection with AS and abuse of any sort..there are nasty NTs everywhere as well.   It seems to me that "Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome", or at least the circumstances that may cause a person to fit that experience is not limited to AS or autism or anything in particular, other than personalities and their particular development...or

the combination of two personalities relating to each other.  I haven't always thought this way, but it seems to me that the most distressing situations usually arise when there are expectations or a need to change the other person.  If a partner cannot or will not give us what we need, can we not accept that fact and based upon our idea of how we want to live our life, make a sound decision to either live with that or let it go?  And does that not apply to any partnership, AS or not?  Could it not be, that what we often think of as love, is some kind of emotional dependance?  And, if we can recognize that, maybe we need to work on ourselves first to overcome a dependance, and begin to just enjoy what there is to enjoy...obviously, if the relationship is hell, overcoming the dependance would also help us, by giving us the freedom and confidence to move on...After taking care of my dying grandmother who was in a vegetative state for the last 7

months of her life, I experienced a new way of being with an individual I loved dearly but was completely unable to be in my world .  The experience was a priviledge.  After her death, I began to question everything I had perceived before and started on a sort of quest for truth and understanding of humans, relationships and culture.   I developed a very close friendship with my boyfriend's father, who I now realize is AS.  He's in his 80's and trains horses...he's given me a new perspective on horse training, but more importantly a new way to look at life, love and people.  Many would often ask me what is so special about the relationship...I came to the conclusion that it was the first time in my life that anyone had accepted me for who I am, and I have been able to do the same...therefore, any time we spend together is always  sincere and joyful...often disagreeing with each other on methods, or ideas, but still being able to be in the moment

and never measuring or keeping notes on who gives what...When the friendship developed, I began to examine my other relationships and my whole perspective changed...although i am very happy with my communicative, emotionally sensitive and expressive NT ways, I found that a good chunk of the "feeling" (NT) world of people I knew were emotionally needy and insecure and often manipulate, or demand, etc... in order to compensate for it, which doesn't seem to have much to do with loving someone...Very difficult to have a sincere or healthy relationship of any sort when that exists and it's so common!  I don't want to generalize on anything,...there are all sorts of people out there... I just think  many of these issues are over simplified by being labeled one thing, or another.  My boyfriend  and I have the same type of honest relationship but obviously more involved...I didn't know anything about AS a few months ago but just found my boyfriend and his

father to be very special people, with different personalities, but very "peculiar" traits common to both...and being around them is liberating for me...I can just be me, and enjoy them, being them. There is love and honesty.  Most NT's I know would not be able to stand either of them, even as friends, because they could not fill many typical expectations, as their concept of friendship (NT) has a different base..."I give you this, you give me that..if you don't give me what I expect or hope for, I am dissappointed" the struggles begin... They don't work that way..it's more like "I give you this because I want to, and there is no need for you to return anything" and that works both ways! If the personalities fit, and there is common ground, then it just flows.  Our partners NT or AS don't have to be our everything..life is awfully short to spend it in a struggle trying to achieve that, which seems to me is neither healthy, nor reasonable, nor

reachable...I can see THAT struggle causing a real trauma!  There is a whole world out there to help fill in the gaps! I hope I have not offended anyone...not my intention.  I don't question that there is suffering that can cause trauma in relationships, but I think blaming AS as the source is too simple for such a complex mix of components as exists in human relationships and emotions.  De: Newland Para: aspires-relationships Enviado: sáb,20 febrero, 2010 14:47Asunto: Blog: OTRS: Ongoing

Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

 

AACK! Yet another instance of Invention masquerading as Discovery."Magical Thinking". A diversion *away* from real understanding.- Bill, dx AS; ...sputter

 

Bill

 

Can you expand on your thinking?  I am wondering when some like me speaks we come from a place of feelings and emotions.  Does not always make our preceptions correct but just a way of expressing how "we" feel in the moment.

 

"Magical Thinking". A diversion *away* from real understanding. 

 

What is your perception on REAL understanding?  What does it look like to you?  What part of the post are you commenting on?  Your addressing the subject from an AS perspective and a NS perspective might be different as our brains are wired dirrently.

 

Just respectfully curious.

 

[Guest guest]

CJ,Sorry about the confusing format.Here it is again. Hope it's readable!I am wondering or pondering on how difficult it is to really define AS when personality plays such a huge part in human ways of behaviour, regardless of the wiring. I can see definite common patterns in what is called AS, but think it may be dangerous or erroneous for us NT's to attribute many aspects of behaviour, exclusively to AS.  I don't see a direct connection with AS and abuse of any sort. There are nasty NTs everywhere as well.   It seems to me that "Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome", or at least the circumstances that may cause a person to fit that experience is not limited to AS or autism or anything in particular, other than

personalities and their particular development, or the combination of two personalities relating to each other.  I haven't always thought this way, but it seems to me that the most distressing situations usually arise when there are expectations or a need to change the other person.  If a partner cannot or will not give us what we need, can we not accept that fact and based upon our idea of how we want to live our life, make a sound decision to either live with that or let it go?  And does that not apply to any partnership, AS or not?  Could it not be, that what we often think of as love, is some kind of emotional dependance?  And, if we can recognize that, maybe we need to work on ourselves first to overcome a dependance, and begin to just enjoy what there is to enjoy. Obviously, if the relationship is hell, overcoming the dependance would also help us, by giving us the freedom and confidence to move

on.After taking care of my dying grandmother who was in a vegetative state for the last 7 months of her life, I experienced a new way of being with an individual I loved dearly but was completely unable to be in my world .  The experience was a priviledge.  After her death, I began to question everything I had perceived before and started on a sort of quest for truth and understanding of humans, relationships and culture.   I developed a very close friendship with my boyfriend's father, who I now realize is AS.  He's in his 80's and trains horses. He's given me a new perspective on horse training, but more importantly a new way to look at life, love and people.  Many would often ask me what is so special about the relationship. I came to the conclusion that it was the first time in my life that anyone had accepted me for who I am, and I have been able to do the same...therefore, any time we spend

together is always  sincere and joyful, often disagreeing with each other on methods, or ideas, but still being able to be in the moment and never measuring or keeping notes on who gives what. When the friendship developed, I began to examine my other relationships and my whole perspective changed. Although I am very happy with my communicative, emotionally sensitive and expressive NT ways, I found that a good chunk of the "feeling" (NT) world of people I knew were emotionally needy and insecure and often manipulate, or demand, etc... in order to compensate for it, which doesn't seem to have much to do with loving someone. It's very difficult to have a sincere or healthy relationship of any sort when that exists and it's so common!  I don't want to generalize on anything.  There are all sorts of people out there.  I just think  many of these issues are over simplified by being labeled one thing, or another.  My boyfriend

 and I have the same type of honest relationship but obviously more involved.I didn't know anything about AS a few months ago but just found my boyfriend and his father to be very special people, with different personalities, but very "peculiar" traits common to both. Being around them is liberating for me. I can just be me, and enjoy them, being them. There is love and honesty.  Most NT's I know would not be able to stand either of them, even as friends, because they could not fill many typical expectations, as their concept of friendship (NT) has a different base..."I give you this, you give me that..if you don't give me what I expect or hope for, I am dissappointed" the struggles begin... My boyfriend and his father don't work that way. It's more like "I give you this because I want to, and there is no need for you to return anything". That works both ways! If the personalities fit, and there is

common ground, then it just flows! Our partners NT or AS don't have to be our everything..life is awfully short to spend it in a struggle trying to achieve that, which seems to me is neither healthy, nor reasonable, nor reachable. I can see THAT struggle causing a real trauma!  There is a whole world out there to help fill in the gaps! I hope I have not offended anyone...not my intention.  I don't question that there is suffering that can cause trauma in relationships, but I think blaming AS as the source is too simple for such a complex mix of components as exists in human relationships and emotions.  De: CJ Para: aspires-relationships Enviado: sáb,20 febrero, 2010 19:09Asunto: Re: Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

 

, you raise some very good issues that concern me as well.

I would like to comment on them, yet I'm finding your post very

difficult to read due to the absence of paragraph breaks.

Typically I find myself deleting these sort of posts unread, as they

take far too much time and energy. But you bring up such great ideas

that I hesitate to do that here.

Could you please re-format your post in a more reader-friendly manner,

then resend it?

Many thanks,

~CJ

wrote:

>

> I am wondering or pondering on how difficult it is to really define AS

> when personality plays such a huge part in human ways of behaviour,

> regardless of the wiring...I can see definite common patterns in what is

> called AS, but think it may be dangerous or erroneous for us NT's to

> attribute many aspects of behaviour, exclusively to AS...I don't see a

> direct connection with AS and abuse of any sort..there are nasty NTs

> everywhere as well. It seems to me that "Ongoing Traumatic

> Relationship Syndrome", or at least the circumstances that may cause a

> person to fit that experience is not limited to AS or autism or anything

> in particular, other than personalities and their particular

> development. ..or the combination of two personalities relating to each

> other. I haven't always thought this way, but it seems to me that the

> most distressing situations usually arise when there are expectations or

> a need to change the other person. If a partner cannot or will not give

> us what we need, can we not accept that fact and based upon our idea of

> how we want to live our life, make a sound decision to either live with

> that or let it go? And does that not apply to any partnership, AS or

> not? Could it not be, that what we often think of as love, is some kind

> of emotional dependance? And, if we can recognize that, maybe we need

> to work on ourselves first to overcome a dependance, and begin to just

> enjoy what there is to enjoy...obviously, if the relationship is hell,

> overcoming the dependance would also help us, by giving us the freedom

> and confidence to move on...After taking care of my dying grandmother

> who was in a vegetative state for the last 7 months of her life, I

> experienced a new way of being with an individual I loved dearly but was

> completely unable to be in my world . The experience was a priviledge.

> After her death, I began to question everything I had perceived before

> and started on a sort of quest for truth and understanding of humans,

> relationships and culture. I developed a very close friendship with my

> boyfriend's father, who I now realize is AS. He's in his 80's and

> trains horses...he' s given me a new perspective on horse training, but

> more importantly a new way to look at life, love and people. Many would

> often ask me what is so special about the relationship. ..I came to the

> conclusion that it was the first time in my life that anyone had

> accepted me for who I am, and I have been able to do the

> same...therefore, any time we spend together is always sincere and

> joyful...often disagreeing with each other on methods, or ideas, but

> still being able to be in the moment and never measuring or keeping

> notes on who gives what...When the friendship developed, I began to

> examine my other relationships and my whole perspective

> changed...although i am very happy with my communicative, emotionally

> sensitive and expressive NT ways, I found that a good chunk of the

> "feeling" (NT) world of people I knew were emotionally needy and

> insecure and often manipulate, or demand, etc... in order to compensate

> for it, which doesn't seem to have much to do with loving someone...Very

> difficult to have a sincere or healthy relationship of any sort when

> that exists and it's so common! I don't want to generalize on

> anything,... there are all sorts of people out there... I just think

> many of these issues are over simplified by being labeled one thing, or

> another. My boyfriend and I have the same type of honest relationship

> but obviously more involved...I didn't know anything about AS a few

> months ago but just found my boyfriend and his father to be very special

> people, with different personalities, but very "peculiar" traits common

> to both...and being around them is liberating for me...I can just be me,

> and enjoy them, being them. There is love and honesty. Most NT's I know

> would not be able to stand either of them, even as friends, because they

> could not fill many typical expectations, as their concept of friendship

> (NT) has a different base..."I give you this, you give me that..if you

> don't give me what I expect or hope for, I am dissappointed" the

> struggles begin... They don't work that way..it's more like "I give you

> this because I want to, and there is no need for you to return anything"

> and that works both ways! If the personalities fit, and there is common

> ground, then it just flows. Our partners NT or AS don't have to be our

> everything.. life is awfully short to spend it in a struggle trying to

> achieve that, which seems to me is neither healthy, nor reasonable, nor

> reachable... I can see THAT struggle causing a real trauma! There is a

> whole world out there to help fill in the gaps! I hope I have not

> offended anyone...not my intention. I don't question that there is

> suffering that can cause trauma in relationships, but I think blaming AS

> as the source is too simple for such a complex mix of components as

> exists in human relationships and emotions.

[Guest guest]

Newland wrote:

>

> /AACK! Yet another instance of Invention masquerading as Discovery.

>

> " Magical Thinking " . A diversion *away* from real understanding.

>

> - Bill, dx AS; ...sputter/

>

> Bill

>

> Can you expand on your thinking? I am wondering when some like me

> speaks we come from a place of feelings and emotions. Does not always

> make our preceptions correct but just a way of expressing how " we " feel

> in the moment.

Sure; we all do that. But why talk or express *anything*, if the person

you're talking *to* isn't on the same page? Can't *really* understand

what you're trying to say?

The blog in question introduces " OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship

Syndrome " , which has no standing in the mental-health field. It goes on

to equate it " aka Cassandra Phenomenon " with " Cassandra Affective

Deprivation Disorder(CADD) " . *That* is pure invention, as contentious a

notion among professionals as can be.

It's behavior " in reaction to... " , pure and simple.

The *behaviors*, and the *very real feelings* they betray, are very,

very real. No question; no doubt. But it's *not* a " disorder " ; it does

*not* require " treatment " ,

That said, " OTRS " *also* is not a " disorder " ; it does not require

" treatment " .

What has been gained by claiming otherwise?

Apart, that is, from the money and notoriety gained by some

" professionals " ...

>

> / " Magical Thinking " . A diversion *away* from real understanding. /

One aspect of magical thinking: The belief that *naming* something is

the same as *understanding* it.

We use the terms " autism " , " AS " , and " Asperger's " so freely and

" knowledgeably " - as though by speaking or writing the names we're

imparting knowledge and understanding of IT.

But we do *not* understand IT. It's " magical thinking " to believe

otherwise.

" CADD " is even worse.

>

> What is your perception on REAL understanding? What does it look like

> to you?

You have real understanding of (whatever) when you can manipulate

(whatever) to your advantage. When you've mastered it.

If you try to manipulate it, and fail, your understanding of

(whatever) is incomplete at best. Or you don't have it at all; your

" mastery " is fraudulent.

It " looks like " the busted washing machine which *works* again, after

you apply your electro-mechanical " understanding " to its innards.

> What part of the post are you commenting on?

Your " post " - none of it. The *blog* cited - all of it.

> Your addressing the subject from an AS perspective

No! Absolutely not!

My comments arose from a lifetime's *professional* perspective. That of

one who's entire long career was based on using a trained, *skeptical*

minds-eye when judging claims and evidence.

The blog's content simply doesn't hold up under even modest scrutiny.

Neither do any of the comments.

> and a NS perspective might be

> different as our brains are wired dirrently.

Sure, they might be. But different perspectives still can't make silk

purses out of sows' ears.

>

> Just respectfully curious.

I know. I take no offense; ...hope I've given none.

- Bill, dx AS; ...not dumb, AS or not.

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

, thanks for your comment. I don’t know your age, but as a man in his 60s with AS, I must say that you are very wise in your remarks.

As we are all part of the “spectrum” of humanity and we all know that what makes a rainbow so fantastically beautiful is yes, a “spectrum” ….

You comment is timely for me: I read something today that disturbs me. In a recent interview with one of most famous and successful AS folks on the planet, Temple Grandin, in the Wall Street Journal (20 Feb 1020), she says that the American Psychological Association is recommending scrapping the Asperger term for just Autism Spectral Disorder in it’s new diagnosis “bible”. I find it so disappointing that the very industry trying to help “those on the spectrum” continues to tighten the noose with new and more severe labels. Once again, it appears to me that those who want to be in charge, desire to put us in another box! In this case, it’s not a nice box. AS used to be noted as a “High Functioning Syndrome” … now it’s proposed to be a “Disorder”. As someone very comfortable with the AS label, I don’t see it as a “disorder”… it’s just a different way to think and see the world! I see this effort as another effort to separate folks who are AS into a box and away from the rest of the world … and I believe away from RELATIONSHIPS. Seems to me that labels can be barriers to relationships … am I off base here?

As you discuss , it’s all about relationships. What a terrible world it would be if everyone saw the world the same way! Boring for sure I would think. In every NT – NT relationships, both parties must adjust or the relationship will die. It can be simple things such as just picking up socks or keeping the toilet seat down. It works when people want it to work and are committed to do whatever it takes to make it work. For AS-NTs, it’s the same principal. For me an AS person in a relationship, it’s about learning what it takes to be social, to listen more, and meeting a partner in the middle (and not be so absolute about everything). For an NT person such as my wife, it’s can be a teaching moment … hey, NTs generally know how to act in social settings, so pass it onto your partner who needs to learn! And what an experience to learn from each other.

For me, it boils down to understanding and understanding comes with dialog … both parties listening to each other. I must admit that I continue to learn much from my NT wife and continue to be amazed at the ability she has to talk to anybody. She has taught me a lot. I have taught her as well … how to create, how to patent ideas, how to be even be a nerd … HA HA. It’s just plain fun somehow.

Thanks again,

BGRuefer, friends call me “Beda”

[Guest guest]

Newland wrote:

>

> Bill:

>

> Thanks for your comments and insight. Bottom line. If AS is a cultural

> differnece one has a choice to embrace it or say no to it.

>

[ snip ]

Yup. In principle anyway. By why make it Black & White - Either/Or? Why

not embrace and use the strengths from *both* sides?

>

> The difference in AS and NT is similar as are brains are wired

> differently and we have different belief systems. While we can

> appreciate the differences in others it is not an absolute that the

> other side should change their life for ours.

I'd not go so far as to say *belief* system. There is no belief system

*inherent* to AS or NT, ...wouldn't you say?

In any case brains are *very* plastic, quite changeable. That's what

happens when we grow up, NT *and* AS.

>

> We just need to find others that share our belief sytem that we are

> compaitable with. Neither side should force the other one to live in

> THEIR world.

Of course! Or to borrow from my Catholic youth: AMEN!

Still it needn't be the one or the other. It *can* be both.

I've known dozens of cross-cultural or/and inter-racial couples. The

ones appearing to me as the most successful (longest term?) are those

who've managed to *blend*, not cut off each others' heritage.

Many are the *most interesting* of all my friends.

- Bill, dx AS; ...blended. Or is that MixMastered?

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> CJ,

> Sorry about the confusing format.

> Here it is again. Hope it's readable!

>

>

> I am wondering or pondering on how difficult it is to really define AS

> when personality plays such a huge part in human ways of behaviour,

> regardless of the wiring. I can see definite common patterns in what is

> called AS, but think it may be dangerous or erroneous for us NT's to

> attribute many aspects of behaviour, exclusively to AS.

[ snip marvelous, *marvelous* words (for brevity) ]

>

> Most NT's I know would not be able to stand either of them, even as

> friends, because they could not fill many typical expectations, as their

> concept of friendship (NT) has a different base... " I give you this, you

> give me that..if you don't give me what I expect or hope for, I am

> dissappointed " the struggles begin... My boyfriend and his father don't

> work that way. It's more like " I give you this because I want to, and

> there is no need for you to return anything " . That works both ways! If

> the personalities fit, and there is common ground, then it just flows!

Perceptive!! You're one smart lady.

>

> Â Our partners NT or AS don't have to be our everything..life is awfully

> short to spend it in a struggle trying to achieve that, which seems to

> me is neither healthy, nor reasonable, nor reachable. I can see THAT

> struggle causing a real trauma! Â There is a whole world out there to

> help fill in the gaps!Â

> I hope I have not offended anyone...not my intention. Â I don't question

> that there is suffering that can cause trauma in relationships, but I

> think blaming AS as the source is too simple for such a complex mix of

> components as exists in human relationships and emotions. Â

Amen.

Really *nice* post, . One for the books! ...Archives. ?

- Bill, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

We've had this discussion before... so you know I am with Bill in disliking this.

..

Whether you call it "Cassandra', "OTRS" or something else, it's just to me unscientific bunk. Any time that people in a relationship don't relate or communicate well the less assertive party can always be "traumatized" by that experience. It's part of life. Ascribing it to NT/AS relationships as though that is a unique circumstance does way more harm than good... and classifying the less assertive party as the "victim" and hence suffering from a "syndrome" caused by the other party, to me really is lame. Please understand that I am not saying these issues are not real... I am saying that calling them a new "syndrome", and singling out their existence in AS/NT couples, and borrowing from Greek Mythology saying that the experiencer is "not believed" is just silly, victimizing, false and doesn't do anything constructive to bridge the gap between different ways of thinking in a constructive and positive light. It is a tearer-down rather than a builder, if you know what I mean.

Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

Any comments on this blog?

http://query-otrs.blogspot.com/

Have a GREAT day or evening....

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I greatly respect your opinion too. And that is all we both have is opinions--there is no right or wrong. But you asked for our thoughts, and I can't resist piping up when it comes to Cassandra, or other IMHO attempt to create a "new" disorder by slapping on a label, when I think the issues are better approached another way. I don't have the same broad brush disdain for all classification issues that you might think. Just this one, which I strongly believe is the tail wagging the dog.

Best,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I agree with this completely. I can understand that some people feel as if they are hurt because they are not being validated when they express their feelings, and that is already a human condition that we can all face as people. I think that the "cure" is to find people who can validate those feelings, and to help a person learn to express them, and help a person find an outlet for that. I feel that people have made this a big deal because they felt that it was the best way to be heard, but it feels all wrong to me: all people need this.

All the best,

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 10:39:44 AMSubject: Re: Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

Hi ,

I greatly respect your opinion too. And that is all we both have is opinions--there is no right or wrong. But you asked for our thoughts, and I can't resist piping up when it comes to Cassandra, or other IMHO attempt to create a "new" disorder by slapping on a label, when I think the issues are better approached another way. I don't have the same broad brush disdain for all classification issues that you might think. Just this one, which I strongly believe is the tail wagging the dog.

Best,

[Guest guest]

One of the reasons I need to be part of this community and I need to find a

therapist who truly understands what it is like to be a wife of a hubby with

aspergers is because NO ONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS. I've been told by by best friend

to " suck it up, all men are like this, what's my problem, deal with " etc !!!! I

need to be with people who understand my struggles while I struggle to

understand hubby's struggles.

Professionals who don't have a keen understanding of Aspergers are useless. Our

family doctor's reaction was " wow that's great, what's your special talent ? "

....<sigh> I believe the majority of professionals are clueless and that's why

this community and specialists who understand are invaluable to NT's of aspie

partners

hugs

brenda

> >

> w

>

> > Any comments on this blog?

> >

> > http://query-otrs.blogspot.com/

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I would encourage education and understanding, joining groups like this one, without feeling compelled to say that the sufferer is afflicted with a syndrome particular to "mixed" relationships where the NT is the victim. That is what the makers of Cassandra do, to my estimation. It has the unfortunate byproduct of encouraging the NT halves of an NT/AS relationship (if such is ever proven) to suspect themselves of suffering from the same syndrome and to seek solidarity with others who are "NT" and feeling victimized.

All of the Cassandra language refers to emotional deprivation and trauma as a result of an NT's having an AS spouse or partner who leaves them "emotionally deprived." There are an awful lot of relationships where the spouses could say that and it has nothing to do with AS, it is the result of poor communication, an abusive or mentally ill spouse, a bad relationship, with no necessary correlation to AS. Maxine Aston seems to have unwittingly recalled the days of the refrigerator mother theory, only she makes it the refrigerator spouse (usually husband.) But I think there are many situations where an AS spouse could be the victim just as easily, of manipulation, hysteria, and bullying from a partner who is needier and cries a lot louder seeking validation, or is a bully. But that is not what is coming through with Cassandra -- it emphasizes AS/NT in cases where there is absolutely no certainty that such is the case; it searches for victims, and assumes automatically that those victims are the NTs (and assumes certain behaviors about "NT"s in the process).

And all this talk about "not being believed"??? I loved Greek mythology and calling this Cassandra, I find offensive. Cassandra was afflicted with the gift of prophecy. Her victims today, are not. First of all, who are "they" talking to, and who is not believing them? I think that is way overstated. All these people saying they "suffer twice"... once by being victims of the relationship, and a second time because "no one believes them". What is not to believe? If it is to strangers, why are they airing their dirty laundry to members of the public? If it is to friends and family, maybe they need new friends (you can't pick your family <g>). And if it is therapists who are not believing, either it isn't a good therapist, or there is perhaps something in their own demeanor and behavior they are not seeing that makes their own dx and credibilities, suspect.

I spent a year giving free legal advice to domestic violence victims in my county, years ago, all of whom were women, until I happen to ask and was told the very political views of this particular organization were that by their very definition, only women could be domestic violence victims, because women they said, were the lesser empowered group. As a result only women got the free lawyers, help, etc. That is still going on in my county today only because no one has the interest and resources to challenge it, but it is not particularly fair to many men. I had a case where there were cross criminal charges, I represented the man, both parties dropped the charges against each other, they were the exact same charge, only the Wife gets free legal counsel and an "escort" to court every case while the husband has to pay me. (Fortunately for me he's not unhappy about that <g>).

Once you put yourself in the tiny box of this particular victim class -- no matter who you are -- you have just given up much of your responsibility for your own wellbeing and actions and given someone else too much power over you. It's like when someone is not feeling well, and they go on the computer with some of their symptoms and the next thing you know they have convinced themselves they are suffering from XYZ malady. I would agree that many people walk around with a form of post-traumatic stress and depression as a result of bad relationships traumatic events, domestic violence. What most of the Cassandra folks complain of is of feeling unloved and being bullied, and when they try to tell people about it they are looked at as though they have two heads. But that often happens in any abusive relationship where the sufferer is embarrassed and quiet about it and the acts happen in private. It really has nothing to do with AS, it has to do with behaviors. It doesn't add a layer of help, to me, to call it Cassandra. But I don't see where a "Cassandra" diagnosis helps anyone do ANYTHING constructive -- and it isn't like the Cassandra folks are saying -- "hey, he may be bullying to you, but he doesn't mean it, and it isn't his fault, so understand and love him anyway" -- they are saying "hey Honey, you're a victim. Get help and (usually) get out!!"

My approach would be to help someone understand the many complexities of AS (and it is a spectrum which the Cassandra folks almost never seem to recognize) and help someone help themselves out of the relationship, if it is not a relationship that can work for them. Don't create another phenomenon which is a stereotype in and of itself, an application of post traumatic stress disorder to one particular group, and then put it out there for a bunch of people to start their "Me Too"s.

Oh, boy. I have gotten a bit long winded, here. Aren't you sorry you asked?? <g>

Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

:

I totally agree and it would be nice to live in a world with no labels and I can certainly see your point that is shared by many. How do "you" think this issue would be better served?

Best as always.

Hi ,

I greatly respect your opinion too. And that is all we both have is opinions--there is no right or wrong. But you asked for our thoughts, and I can't resist piping up when it comes to Cassandra, or other IMHO attempt to create a "new" disorder by slapping on a label, when I think the issues are better approached another way. I don't have the same broad brush disdain for all classification issues that you might think. Just this one, which I strongly believe is the tail wagging the dog.

Best,

[Guest guest]



Hi ,

I hear you and agree -- you are so right, all people need to find a way to be heard.

The curse of Cassandra was that she was afflicted with the gift of prophecy -- to be able to see exactly what would happen in the future -- and to simultaneously suffer the curse of not having anyone believe her. It was something that was done to her by another of the Gods. The Cassandra Phenomenon people only took the last part -- the 'not being believed' -- and forgot that the reason not being believed was such a curse, was because the original Cassandra could foresee horrible events which would occur and which, if she'd been believed, she could get others to help her prevent. It was not about being believed for the sake of being believed. In the case of the modern day Cassandra Phenomenom, there really is no "right". The sufferers may be completely wrong. It is simply about being validated, being heard as you say, which is important -- but the labeling isn't. The need to be heard is universal.

Hi ,

I agree with this completely. I can understand that some people feel as if they are hurt because they are not being validated when they express their feelings, and that is already a human condition that we can all face as people. I think that the "cure" is to find people who can validate those feelings, and to help a person learn to express them, and help a person find an outlet for that. I feel that people have made this a big deal because they felt that it was the best way to be heard, but it feels all wrong to me: all people need this.

All the best,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I loved this part of what you wrote, about Greek mythology. I could not agree more with the contrasts you have mentioned, many of which I did not see till I read your wonderful post. Cassandra was also not even complaining about anything, bur prophesying- and she was certainly not even in relationship with Apollo at the time- that was why he put the curse on her, to cancel out the gift- a Greek divine version of taking back the ring, in a way? So, getting out of the relationship was really not her issue, either. Finally, I am sure that Apollo was not an AS, but kind of wonder about Cassandra: after all, if an NT were not being believed, it would seem that she would simply tell it some other way, indirectly: "Oh I think that horse is really ugly- I am going to move away, because I am embarrased to even think it is in my back yard! -- or something like that- or even, "Hey Neighbors, let's get together outside

the walls for a picnic- I know a great place on a faraway island where we can all go for the weekend"- to get them out of the area, and save someone- after all, she knew she would not be believed! Alternatively, she could have sabotaged the whole thing by punching a couple of military people on her side, and running under the horse and opening it, having lead them nearby so that they would have beeen able to see it without having to believe her! Instead, she had a major meltdown and was completely ineffective- and having done that myself, I feel a certain kinship with her and always have. To me, being played by people and then not being believed about it was common enough for me before I learned about being AS.

Now, I am learning to try to hear everyone when they talk of feelings, so that I can let them know I believe them- and it is nice that some people are reaching out to me right back.

You are so right that Cassandra was not even talking about herself, but trying to save her country. It is not even in the same category.

All the best,

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:39:25 PMSubject: Re: Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

 Hi ,

I hear you and agree -- you are so right, all people need to find a way to be heard.

The curse of Cassandra was that she was afflicted with the gift of prophecy -- to be able to see exactly what would happen in the future -- and to simultaneously suffer the curse of not having anyone believe her. It was something that was done to her by another of the Gods. The Cassandra Phenomenon people only took the last part -- the 'not being believed' -- and forgot that the reason not being believed was such a curse, was because the original Cassandra could foresee horrible events which would occur and which, if she'd been believed, she could get others to help her prevent. It was not about being believed for the sake of being believed. In the case of the modern day Cassandra Phenomenom, there really is no "right". The sufferers may be completely wrong. It is simply about being validated, being heard as you say, which is important -- but the labeling isn't. The need to be heard is universal.

Hi ,

I agree with this completely. I can understand that some people feel as if they are hurt because they are not being validated when they express their feelings, and that is already a human condition that we can all face as people. I think that the "cure" is to find people who can validate those feelings, and to help a person learn to express them, and help a person find an outlet for that. I feel that people have made this a big deal because they felt that it was the best way to be heard, but it feels all wrong to me: all people need this.

All the best,

[Guest guest]



:

Thanks! You make some valid points. I would be happy to take all labels off the table and just talk about the behavior.

Like the term ASPIES, Cassandra is a label "some" partners indentify with. I am guessing here and would have to check with FAAAS who coined this phrase that the prophesy was that most people think you have totally lost your mind as no one could have Autism can be married let alone parent a child or go to college. lol

Most Cassandra groups if there are ones concentrate of making their relationships work and meeting the needs of the NS/NT partner, not in convincing them to "get out" of the relationship just like AS groups counsel on the needs of the AS partner in a mixed relationship.

I think those "with" AS probably experience Cassandra more than NT's as many folks have an outdated belief system on what autism is. People still look at me funny when I say, I think my ex has AS or he is a self dx. person with AS.

Just my 2 cents worth as usual.

[Guest guest]

As someone who is diagnosed AS and who has suffered from the symptoms discussed here... I agree with . In my life I'm the AS my husband is .... well he's not AS whatever he is or is not. He appears to be the perfect gentleman nice young man. Friends, family, and acquaintances without fail would/will(?) believe him over me without hesitation. Even a pastor/counselor sent hubby home to tell me I just needed to 'accept' him the way he is. As if he was just a good guy who didn't do things my way. Turned out my husband had lied to the pastor/counselor he admitted this to me. So I blew up and said he needed to go back and tell the guy that he had lied to him so he could get some REAL advice, he went back and the pastor/counselor would NOT believe my husband had lied before, he insisted that my husband was just saying he was lying because I told him to. Hubby has a way of telling the 'truth' while making it look like something else and telling lies and making them look like truth. In the end that little fiasco cost me my friendship with the pastor's wife who of course believed her husband's perception of my husband based off a couple counseling visits versus her 4 year friendship with me. Turns out I wasn't the only person who was burned by this woman (find better friends!!). I found her before I knew about AS and learned about healthy people versus nutty people.

The solution to all of it was to recognize that I ALLOWED my husband to treat me this way. I covered up for him in public which made him look better than he is. I HELPED him give people the impression he was a good guy. So I stopped. I stopped covering for him and just said nothing when he was an idiot. I stopped taking the @$%@ from him at home. I found different friends, I stopped being around family members who also treat me the same way. In short I just stopped giving everyone permission to walk on me. When people say rude things, I stand up to them instead of following what I was taught my whole life and saying nothing. Because of these changes in my behavior the kind of people that are lousy friends don't even want to be around me where as people who will end up being good friends like me.

I have always hated the idea of being a victim so for me it was a simple matter of gaining the awareness that my husband's behavior was not 'normal' or 'acceptable'. Also the fact that he felt the need to behave completely different in public said to me that he himself KNEW it wasn't acceptable behavior. As I pointed out to my husband, a normal woman would have kicked him out and changed the locks long time ago and the only reason things went on as long as they did is because of my AS. It wasn't until learning about AS and then in turn learning about 'typical' and meshing the two (which took a lot of time) that I realized I did not need to take it. He knows that is true because he knows and has now admitted he was being an abusive jerk, regardless of what he may or may not be able to be diagnosed as. In the end no one makes anyone behave badly, not even a diagnosis. (He fits the criteria for two different dx, (he thinks this himself though has not pursued a dx) Now he got the message and he's not behaving that way anymore. It wasn't/isn't easy and it's taking a long time. BUT I'm not 'suffering the Cassandra effect' because I did not allow it to exist in my life. I am NOT a victim, WILL NOT be a victim. It is unacceptable to me.

Anyway, there's a lot of power to just standing up and saying "NO" and/or just not DOING all the time. Perhaps one of the best things that happened to my husband was perhaps the worst thing that happened to me and that is that he pushed with his abusive behaviors until I literally cracked. I was at the point of driving to a hospital and checking myself in because I was afraid I would lose control around the kids. Instead I just stopped doing everything else (stress reduction) and focused on the kids and on stress reducing activities. So my husband had to either live in squalor or do it himself. Fortunately for me I have the ability to just pretend to myself there is no squalor so inspite of the stench in our room, the piles of mud crusted dirty clothes (his), and the thick glaze of crud all over the counters, sinks, bathtubs... Not to mention the rest of the house. Though it stayed in better condition because the girls continued to do their house chores. Had he not picked up the slack I would have just picked up the kids and left on a long extended vacation. I had/have a plan all laid out. That gave/gives me the ability to hold on to my sanity because I knew/know that I could leave, I had somewhere to go. Sometimes you have to put it all on the line. I know this doesn't work for everyone. It worked for me.

I now have a few good friends. I have gotten in contact with my older brother and found out he is a great person. He left home when I was 7 so I never really knew him before. I have become close friends with a cousin I never knew before and who actually believes what I tell her (if I tell her), doesn't assume I am stupid, lying or being a bad wife. I have acquired some local friends over a long period of time. My mother isn't talking to me any more because I told her she needs to apologize for gossiping nasty things about me, my husband, and my kids. Believe or not, it's a nice thing that she's not talking to me. My husband is starting to be a functional decently behaved person who is losing his dependence on his abusive family and no longer feeling the need to live out his childhood in his present day life. He actually planned an anniversary trip for us and brought me to the beach and cooked food the entire time. Wow.

Oh and a side note, brag about my kids.... our three kids stayed home by themselves (my aunt lives nearby and checked in on them) while we went to the beach. The kids took care of the animals, kept the house clean, and did their school (they are homeschooled). My oldest is 13 so she was in charge and got paid for babysitting. She helped my youngest with her school. When we got home the house was clean, dirty dishes in the dishwasher, all the animals healthy and cared for, school was done.... WOW! So impressed with them!

Jennie AS not suffering the "Cassandra" effect any more.

Blog: OTRS: Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome

:

I totally agree and it would be nice to live in a world with no labels and I can certainly see your point that is shared by many. How do "you" think this issue would be better served?

Best as always.

Hi ,

I greatly respect your opinion too. And that is all we both have is opinions--there is no right or wrong. But you asked for our thoughts, and I can't resist piping up when it comes to Cassandra, or other IMHO attempt to create a "new" disorder by slapping on a label, when I think the issues are better approached another way. I don't have the same broad brush disdain for all classification issues that you might think. Just this one, which I strongly believe is the tail wagging the dog.

Best,