Re: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

April 4, 2010

> Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective.... Would I be

correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you

intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you

said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step

and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not

think it was...?

>

> Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

Not a typical thinker, but as a Mom rearing kids who have to fit in ...

The apology is because you caused someone to feel bad/hurt. There may be more,

but if an action of yours hurt someone, intentionally or accidentally, you

should apologize for causing the hurt.

The wording can differ: " I'm sorry " covers everything but may be too weak for

the situation. " I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you " covers accidents, and " I'm

sorry, I should have realized that doing XYZ would cause hurt " covers a

conscious error on your part. We need to try to read people to judge the proper

level of apology, but it's better to err on the more apologetic side than the

lesser.

I also told my kids that apologies cost very little to say, and go a long ways

in making other people feel better. Sincerity isn't essential, apologies are

part of the lubrication that keeps human society moving smoothly.

It always bugs me to hear NT parents say they want to know how to teach their AS

kids to feel remorse, or apologize with sincerity. Yes, it's nice when we Aspies

can feel remorse, but if we show the proper actions and make amends, does it

really matter if we do it from remorse or because we logically know it's the

appropriate thing to do?

--Liz

------------

The Aspie Parent blog: http://aspergersparent.wordpress.com/

SF, science, and Gifted Ed butons, mugs, and other items at

http://www.zazzle.com/CartesianBear*

Higher Quality Adult & kid shirts at http://www.printfection.com/cartesianbear

April 4, 2010

Hi

My problem as an AS has always been the bit that comes after:

I do something that hurts unintentionally

- This provokes a hurt response

- I apologise

- The apology is not " genuine " enough apparently

- I start to get frustrated/angry, after all I did apologise

.... which is " proof " the apology wasn't genuine

etc. etc.

It's the more complex situations like this where I lose my way.

How do NT's cope?

Tony

>

> Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective.... Would I be

correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you

intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you

said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step

and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not

think it was...?

>

> Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

>

> Jennie AS

>

April 4, 2010

Delyth,I like this reply- it explains something to me. The facts really do not figure into your wanting to help the person feel better-- so your saying you are sorry is addressing the feelings only-- is that right?To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sun,

April 4, 2010 4:18:33 AMSubject: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Yes Jennie... I will always try and apologise if someone is upset as a

result of something I have done/not done, and I never intend to hurt

anyone.

I don't apologise because of their feelings (I'm sorry you feel that

way etc. etc.) - I genuinely feel sorry that I have provoked their

sadness, even if they are being seemingly 'unreasonable' . I don't ever

think I wasn't being hurtful if someone is hurt by my behaviour/words.

I am generally able to accept their perspective and do not feel the

need to argue with them about whether or not it was intentional. What

is important to me is that someone is hurting.

Delyth

April 4, 2010

Jennie,Great question: I need to know this too, and what it means when a typical person apologizes to me for hurting my feelings, and what that apology really means or implies. Thanks for being brave enough to post it.To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 2:30:38 AMSubject: Re: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

I would agree with that Jennie

Lowry

www.brendaandwaynef amilypetservices .com

Owner/Head Trainer Dyno Dogs Performing Dog Team

Founder/Owner Kinder Way Canine Studies

Become a Certified Dog Trainer, Behaviour and Aggression Consultant

NEW!!! Become a Certified Dog /Pet Sitter

NEW!!! Become a Professional Dog Groomer

Professional Dog /Pet Sitter

Professional Dog Groomer

ABTA Certified Trainer

Behavior Consultant

Aggression Consultant

C.A.P.P.D.T

Ontario East Regional Rep C.A.P.P.D.T.

I.P.D.T.A

CKC

CKC CGN Certified Evaluator

ABC Mentor Trainer

From: Jennie Unknown <mossbtweenmetoes@ tds.net>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Sun, April 4, 2010 1:39:19 AMSubject: [aspires-relationsh ips] Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

ï»¿ Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective. ... Would I be correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not think it was...?

Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

Jennie AS

April 4, 2010

Hi Tony, I think that part of this is that the people who are complaining and not being accepting of your apology expect you to get the big picture, and think that you have made whatever error it is many times- because they are putting things in one category and you are thinking of each detail as different-this kind of thing has happened to me. I had a friend who would really get angry at me, and be way out of line with it. I had to learn that her behavior was not right either, and that nothing I did justified her actions. I am learning that when I apologize and say "I am sorry that you feel that way" I may need to identify the feeling and to add a few details to my explanation, and to say a word about how they see it from their side of the table. I think

this works well for me when I have disclosed, because people get that I am trying really hard, but when I have not disclosed, then it can depend on how much I hit the nail on the head as to labeling the actual cause of the other person's distress.I have learned that "Did I offend you?" may not address the issue, because making the other person feel bad may not actually be "offensive" in that sense. A better question might be, "Did I make you feel badly", "Did I put you on the spot", "Did I make you feel awkward?", or another question that is much more specific. Then, I can get actual feedback, and apologize for something that makes sense to both of us.There are people who do not forgive very fast until they feel they have gotten even for whatever the perceived offense is. This is being incredibly rude on their parts, so I have decided, in recent months, to pay off to the fact that the other person needs to take some

responsibility as well. I am still learning where those boundaries lie. C. and Jennie U. and others have spoken about this more effectively than I can. AS and still learning a lot.To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 12:42:07 PMSubject: Re: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi

My problem as an AS has always been the bit that comes after:

I do something that hurts unintentionally

- This provokes a hurt response

- I apologise

- The apology is not "genuine" enough apparently

- I start to get frustrated/angry, after all I did apologise

.... which is "proof" the apology wasn't genuine

etc. etc.

It's the more complex situations like this where I lose my way.

How do NT's cope?

Tony

>

> Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective. ... Would I be correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not think it was...?

>

> Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

>

> Jennie AS

>

April 4, 2010

ï»¿

Hi Jennie,

I will offer my thoughts, though I truly don't know at this point in life whether I'm NT, AS or something in between.

I can't help but think that it both does, and does not matter, whether you intend to hurt someone's feelings, depending upon the outcome that is desired. If the outcome is to respond to the hurt and try to console the person and offer apology, then I would say that intent does not really matter at that moment. If the desired outcome is to avoid the situation recurring in the future, then I think that the intent is relevant, just as the emotional state of the person who is on the receiving end is relevant, to understanding and trying to avoid it happeing again. I have met some people in life who are so insecure and defensive that I believe it hinders their ability to communicate well with others and they may find themselves in constant situations of conflict. And I have met some people in life who are so self-centered and seemingly without any sense of personal responsibility that as long as they didn't mean to hurt another person, that's all that matters to them and the other person should just suck it up. But I think both approaches are out of wack. As an example (and though this is a tiny one, it started us on the road to where we are now): I gained 25 lbs after our daughter was born. My husband was constantly on my case about it, giving me grief, etc. to the point where I didn't even want to be intimate with him because he made me not feel good about my body. He actually said to me that he had married me in part because (he said) I was beautiful and if i gained that weight he was worried I would gain even more and then I would no longer be beautiful. Talk about bluntness : ). Anyway I was crushed, and even though he later apologized and said that he didn't mean to hurt me, he was just trying for me to understand his point of view -- which I frankly did because although this is a sensitive situation in a marriage, most of us would have to admit that we try to look our best when we are dating so why not look our best while we are married too -- his "intent" did not take away my hurt. I have had many times when I have had to say to him, "it isn't what you say -- it's how you say it". And I have patiently worked to understand many things and our relationship vastly improved these later years, much due to my presence and being able to learn so much on this very list. Nevertheless, we are still separating. At least we are now, after 19 years, on the verge of amicably separating -- very hard work, to make it amicable, because for years he was not willing to even consider it and I have a 16 year old daughter I have very much wanted to spare the usual divorce histrionics. So I guess you can say that intent does matter but it doesn't spare pain and unless you also take steps to work on sincere apology for the pain (which my DH was never truly capable of until it was too late-- ironically i find him expressing it all now) there will probably still be a divide that may became and unpassable chasm.

So much for intending to offer a simple answer!

Best,

Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

ï»¿ Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective.... Would I be correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not think it was...?

Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

Jennie AS

April 4, 2010

> I think that part of this is that the people who are complaining and not being

accepting of your apology expect you to get the big picture, and think that you

have made whatever error it is many times- because they are putting things in

one category and you are thinking of each detail as different-this kind of thing

has happened to me. I had a friend who would really get angry at me, and be way

out of line with it. I had to learn that her behavior was not right either, and

that nothing I did justified her actions.

>

> I am learning that when I apologize and say " I am sorry that you feel that

way " I may need to identify the feeling and to add a few details to my

explanation, and to say a word about how they see it from their side of the

table.

Exactly.

There's also a form of apology that is interpreted as an insult, where the

person feels you are not apologizing for your actions, but their reaction to

them. " I'm sorry you feel that way " can be tricky, because a lot of people

interpret that as " I'm sorry you misinterpreted my reasonable action " -- not a

good way to make amends. [And one I get from a lot of tech support cal centers

.... " I'm sorry you can't make our software work " is no apology.]

Never use the word " but " in an apology ... " I'm sorry but I had to do XYZ " is no

apology.

Similarly, watch out for apologies where " you " is the subject of the sentence

.... " I'm sorry you didn't/couldn't/wouldn't see/do things my way " is also no

apology.

The best apology is to:

1. Say the words " I'm sorry "

2. State what you did, as an " I " statement: " I broke your dish "

3. Either offer to make amends " Can I replace it? " or ask if you can make

amends " I'd like to replace it, can you give me the information I need to buy a

new one? " The person will probably refuse the replacement, the more valuable an

item is, the more you should insist on replacing it. But don't ever force the

person to accept your amends.

I always used to have trouble with apologies that couldn't follow this format,

especially with the " I'm sorry " you are supposed to say upon hearing of a death.

After all, I had nothing to do with the death, and there are no amends I can

make. But I realized that " I'm sorry " is also used as a general statement of

sympathy, as in " I'm sorry that something happened to you that saddens you; I

wish there was something I could do to make you feel better. " It would be nice

if the English language had different terms for " I did wrong and want to fix it "

and " I'm expressing solidarity with a person who was wronged by another/the

universe " ... but alas, we only have one phrase to cover both.

--Liz

------------

The Aspie Parent blog: http://aspergersparent.wordpress.com/

SF, science, and Gifted Ed butons, mugs, and other items at

http://www.zazzle.com/CartesianBear*

Higher Quality Adult & kid shirts at http://www.printfection.com/cartesianbear

April 4, 2010

Thanks all for your various responses...

I feel like there needs to be a difference between various things that

happen:

When one actually DID something wrong intentionally:

This I get, it seems obvious, " I'm sorry, I did wrong. "

When one did something wrong unintentionally:

Again, seems obvious, " I'm sorry, I did wrong. " (specifics are always

good in 'I did wrong' apologies)

When someone gets hurt feelings but I did not do wrong just different:

Starts getting a little dicey here for me... They will often insist I

admit to wrong when there was no wrong done. OR they will insist I accept

their view, with no regard for my view. Do I just say, " I'm sorry you're

hurting. " and then walk away if they don't accept that? What does one do if

you have to live with the person? What about the question of " your apology

wasn't genuine " ... I guess I've been on the other side of that as well.

Sometimes I do not believe my husband's apology is real but that is because

he spent years using apologies as a way to get me to shut up about something

he didn't want to deal with (real issues like his abusive family &

protecting our kids) not issues like typical household drama.

I guess another aspect of this is others may not define 'wrong' the same way

I do. Then what? Seems like compromise would be in order but what if the

other person refuses to compromise, or even sit down and define right and

wrong and reach an agreement as to what rules will apply in this particular

relationship....ever...? Again, what if you have to live with the person.

Also it seems like past history has a lot to do with it. If someone has a

reputation of being a certain way then one tends to interpret their actions

based on who they have always been.

On the flip side some people don't take past history into consideration at

all. Regardless of ones good reputation they consistently interpret all your

actions/words from an assumption of wrong intent.

Ok I am just randomly rambling here... Trying to work this out, and just

want to know if I am out to lunch or on the right track.

Everyone keep rambling... it's an interesting topic, even if I am still in

the dark. LOL

Jennie AS

April 4, 2010

> When someone gets hurt feelings but I did not do wrong just different:

> Starts getting a little dicey here for me... They will often insist I

> admit to wrong when there was no wrong done. OR they will insist I accept

> their view, with no regard for my view. Do I just say, " I'm sorry you're

> hurting. " and then walk away if they don't accept that?

Not, " I'm sorry you're hurting " , as this can be interpreted as you have nothing

to do with their hurt -- and you do, even if you did nothing wrong. Better to

say " I'm sorry I hurt you. "

If you feel your apology won't be accepted, you can try " I'm sorry I hurt you.

I'm not sure what I did that hurt; can you help me understand? " Again, you are

not blaming them for getting hurt, you aren't agreeing to their view, you are

just asking for explanation, with the intent that when you understand (not

necessarily agree with) their viewpoint, you will be able to avoid hurting them

in the same way again.

Make sense?

> What does one do if you have to live with the person?

I hink people who live together have to be more flexible. We (everyone, spectrum

and NT) sometimes forget the social niceties when we live together, and we

should be more tolerant with those we live with. Of course, should doesn't mean

everyone does.

> What about the question of " your apology

> wasn't genuine " ... I guess I've been on the other side of that as well.

> Sometimes I do not believe my husband's apology is real...

I have problems with " genuine " , as I said above. With kids, I honestly don't

care, as long as they learn the correct form. But with adults ... it's tough to

understand if the apology is sincere, done because it is required, done to just

get the other person to go away, or manipulative. I can handle the first two,

but not the last two.

> I guess another aspect of this is others may not define 'wrong' the same way

> I do. Then what? Seems like compromise would be in order but what if the

> other person refuses to compromise, or even sit down and define right and

> wrong and reach an agreement as to what rules will apply in this particular

> relationship....ever...? Again, what if you have to live with the person.

There's a difference between apologies for doing wrong and for hurting the other

person. It's easy to apologize for hurting, but doing wrong needs a lot more:

- understanding what the wrong thing is

- agreement that it is wrong, not just different

- understanding how the wrong thing affected the other person negatively

- the apology -- feeling remorse for doing wrong

- understanding what amends/change is expected of you

- your agreement that this is something you should change

- figuring out how to make such a change

- conveying to the other that you really want to change and will try to do so.

That's a lot to pack into one apology -- too much, in my opinion! Especially if

you aren't sure what you did that the other sees as wrong ... I'd start with an

apology for hurt, and a follow-up question asking them to explain the wrong and

what they would have liked to see happen instead.

Past history is important ... but that moves out of apology territory and into

the " deep understanding of each other and where our sensitive spots are "

territory.

--Liz

------------

The Aspie Parent blog: http://aspergersparent.wordpress.com/

SF, science, and Gifted Ed butons, mugs, and other items at

http://www.zazzle.com/CartesianBear*

Higher Quality Adult & kid shirts at http://www.printfection.com/cartesianbear

April 5, 2010

It seems there are really two dialogs happening on this topic (both extremely

interesting!!).

The first is the use of the term " Im sorry " as an expression of

sympathy/empathy/compassion. We NT's do this ALOT:

Im sorry for your loss

Im sorry you lost your job

Im sorry youre feeling sad today

Im sorry you cant get the lawn mower to work

Im sorry your boyfriend dumped you

We are in no way claimiing any responsibility for the issue, only expressing

what, if said literally would be:

" I wish this difficult thing wasnt happening to you. "

When I use this expression with my Aspie he always responds:

" Its okay, it isnt your fault. " Because he has taken the words Im sorry to mean

that I am feeling somehow responsible for whatever it is.

The second dialog seems to be about how and when to offer an apology.

I have learned something very important about my Aspie. He has had so many

negative experiences that he has a absolute knee jerk response if anyone

expresses anything resembling displeasure. This stems from fear that the

situation will escalate into anger directed towards him. He will always

immediately go into triage mode and offer a very robotic " apology " that goes

like this:

" I am sorry to have upset you, please accept my apology. "

Some people who dont know him may consider this an insincere apology and become

even more upset. In a literal sense it is insincere - he hasnt even thought

about the content of what was said to him, he is only trying to avoid trouble

with the person.

When I present something that has upset me and he offers his immediate apology I

usually say that Im not seeking an apology but am hoping to understand better

his meaniing. Sometimes after he has explained, whatever it was makes perfect

sense and I no longer feel bad. Other times I still feel bad and by this time

he has enough understanding to offer a sincere apology.

>

> > When someone gets hurt feelings but I did not do wrong just different:

> > Starts getting a little dicey here for me... They will often insist I

> > admit to wrong when there was no wrong done. OR they will insist I accept

> > their view, with no regard for my view. Do I just say, " I'm sorry you're

> > hurting. " and then walk away if they don't accept that?

>

> Not, " I'm sorry you're hurting " , as this can be interpreted as you have

nothing to do with their hurt -- and you do, even if you did nothing wrong.

Better to say " I'm sorry I hurt you. "

>

> If you feel your apology won't be accepted, you can try " I'm sorry I hurt you.

I'm not sure what I did that hurt; can you help me understand? " Again, you are

not blaming them for getting hurt, you aren't agreeing to their view, you are

just asking for explanation, with the intent that when you understand (not

necessarily agree with) their viewpoint, you will be able to avoid hurting them

in the same way again.

>

> Make sense?

>

> > What does one do if you have to live with the person?

>

> I hink people who live together have to be more flexible. We (everyone,

spectrum and NT) sometimes forget the social niceties when we live together, and

we should be more tolerant with those we live with. Of course, should doesn't

mean everyone does.

>

> > What about the question of " your apology

> > wasn't genuine " ... I guess I've been on the other side of that as well.

> > Sometimes I do not believe my husband's apology is real...

>

> I have problems with " genuine " , as I said above. With kids, I honestly don't

care, as long as they learn the correct form. But with adults ... it's tough to

understand if the apology is sincere, done because it is required, done to just

get the other person to go away, or manipulative. I can handle the first two,

but not the last two.

>

> > I guess another aspect of this is others may not define 'wrong' the same way

> > I do. Then what? Seems like compromise would be in order but what if the

> > other person refuses to compromise, or even sit down and define right and

> > wrong and reach an agreement as to what rules will apply in this particular

> > relationship....ever...? Again, what if you have to live with the person.

>

> There's a difference between apologies for doing wrong and for hurting the

other person. It's easy to apologize for hurting, but doing wrong needs a lot

more:

> - understanding what the wrong thing is

> - agreement that it is wrong, not just different

> - understanding how the wrong thing affected the other person negatively

> - the apology -- feeling remorse for doing wrong

> - understanding what amends/change is expected of you

> - your agreement that this is something you should change

> - figuring out how to make such a change

> - conveying to the other that you really want to change and will try to do

so.

>

> That's a lot to pack into one apology -- too much, in my opinion! Especially

if you aren't sure what you did that the other sees as wrong ... I'd start with

an apology for hurt, and a follow-up question asking them to explain the wrong

and what they would have liked to see happen instead.

>

> Past history is important ... but that moves out of apology territory and into

the " deep understanding of each other and where our sensitive spots are "

territory.

>

> --Liz

>

> ------------

> The Aspie Parent blog: http://aspergersparent.wordpress.com/

>

> SF, science, and Gifted Ed butons, mugs, and other items at

http://www.zazzle.com/CartesianBear*

> Higher Quality Adult & kid shirts at http://www.printfection.com/cartesianbear

>

April 5, 2010

>

> Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective.... Would I be

correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you

intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you

said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step

and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not

think it was...?

>

> Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

>

> Jennie AS

Of course. AS people get their feelings hurt too.

It is a matter of treating others as you would

have them treat you and taking responsibility for your actions.

Here is a scenario: You have

just bought a new outfit you are very proud of and feel you

look fabulous in. You arrive at the office party

you bought the outfit for. An associate sees you and

approaches you & the group of people you are speaking to

and asks in earnest 'Where did you get that awful get up,

it looks like you threw together scraps from the rummage pile'?

Let's assume the associate meant no harm, but was merely

expressing his honest opinion with no ill intention.

Now let's look at it from your perspective.

You probably feel humiliated in front of the group

you were talking to, your feelings are probably hurt

and you may be considering running from the room

in tears never wanting to return and face these people again.

Would it help if the associate realized his blunder,

apologized and said you look fabulous and that he was only

joking?

In dealing with life it is important to not be so

self focused. If there are others involved then their

perspectives count too.

~K D

April 5, 2010

>

> Ok folks question for you about the non autistic perspective.... Would I be

correct that in hurting someone else's feelings it does not matter if you

intended to hurt their feelings, what matters is that you accept that what you

said was hurtful to them and thus apologize? You could also take it another step

and attempt to understand why what you said was hurtful even though you did not

think it was...?

>

> Just needing clarification from the typical thinkers of the planet. Thanks

>

> Jennie AS

Of course. AS people get their feelings hurt too.

It is a matter of treating others as you would

have them treat you and taking responsibility for your actions.

Here is a scenario: You have

just bought a new outfit you are very proud of and feel you

look fabulous in. You arrive at the office party

you bought the outfit for. An associate sees you and

approaches you & the group of people you are speaking to

and asks in earnest 'Where did you get that awful get up,

it looks like you threw together scraps from the rummage pile'?

Let's assume the associate meant no harm, but was merely

expressing his honest opinion with no ill intention.

Now let's look at it from your perspective.

You probably feel humiliated in front of the group

you were talking to, your feelings are probably hurt

and you may be considering running from the room

in tears never wanting to return and face these people again.

Would it help if the associate realized his blunder,

apologized and said you look fabulous and that he was only

joking?

In dealing with life it is important to not be so

self focused. If there are others involved then their

perspectives count too.

~K D

April 5, 2010

Hi Delyth,This is helpful. Thanks for writing back. I am in a situation where I need to ask what I have done wrong and cannot seem to do it without creating another offense. I have tried to compare one thing to another to explain what I was talking about, and risked giving the appearance of accusing someone of playing favorites (which if the person did, then the person would never be able to say that, so it would be useless). I have reflected on what happened and given my best guess to try to correct things. This is not a situation I can just walk away from (or even want to), but I really think I may need to know more to avoid making the same error. Sometimes, I have had to make a couple of "you" statements just to reference things to ask a

question- but I am trying not to even give the appearance of judging someone- but people seem to be taking it that way.I think my greatest difficulty seems to be having other people hold things about me, and not let me undo it when I said something out of sequence and they took an inference of something from the way my presentation was, and the inference was not correct. How can I increase the probability that someone who is holding something against me of this nature will let it go?One person I know and think very highly believed that I was letting something negative that happened to me awhile back color things I said, and said this to someone else I know (I was there- it was not behind my back). I believe she was incorrect, and so do several other people- but I learned how I got there: the order of my statements gave that appearance. It was an honest error on her part. Now, the other person does not really

respect me anymore. Is there a way to help him see that I am not like that? It has really made me feel badly, since this is someone who used to think highly of me, and I thought highly of him, and he has acted very dismissive of me since that point. Again, this is not someone I can just walk away from easily.Thanks for reading this, even if you haven't got any answers. I know I can't change anyone, but would love to address even a little piece of this.To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sun, April 4, 2010 2:51:40 PMSubject: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi

Yes, I am saying that I address the feelings only first. Once the feelings are sorted, I might go further and discuss the 'reasonableness' or 'rightness' or 'facts' behind those feelings. But it would very much depend on the person and the situation... wish there was an easy answer!

I think Liz's statement about not putting the word 'you' as a subject in the apology is a useful general guideline.

Delyth

April 5, 2010

Hi

Would it be helpful to write to this person and try to rectify the situation that way ? Sometimes when we write things down we have more time to think about how we want to say things.

I hope this gets resolved favorably for you.

Lowry

www.brendaandwaynefamilypetservices.com

Owner/Head Trainer Dyno Dogs Performing Dog Team

Founder/Owner Kinder Way Canine Studies

Become a Certified Dog Trainer, Behaviour and Aggression Consultant

NEW!!! Become a Certified Dog /Pet Sitter

NEW!!! Become a Professional Dog Groomer

Professional Dog /Pet Sitter

Professional Dog Groomer

ABTA Certified Trainer

Behavior Consultant

Aggression Consultant

C.A.P.P.D.T member

Ontario East Regional Rep C.A.P.P.D.T.

I.P.D.T.A member

CKC member

CKC CGN Certified Evaluator

ABC Mentor Trainer

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:28:15 PMSubject: Re: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi Delyth,This is helpful. Thanks for writing back. I am in a situation where I need to ask what I have done wrong and cannot seem to do it without creating another offense. I have tried to compare one thing to another to explain what I was talking about, and risked giving the appearance of accusing someone of playing favorites (which if the person did, then the person would never be able to say that, so it would be useless). I have reflected on what happened and given my best guess to try to correct things. This is not a situation I can just walk away from (or even want to), but I really think I may need to know more to avoid making the same error. Sometimes, I have had to make a couple of "you" statements just to reference things to ask a question- but I am trying not to even give the appearance of judging someone-

but people seem to be taking it that way.I think my greatest difficulty seems to be having other people hold things about me, and not let me undo it when I said something out of sequence and they took an inference of something from the way my presentation was, and the inference was not correct. How can I increase the probability that someone who is holding something against me of this nature will let it go?One person I know and think very highly believed that I was letting something negative that happened to me awhile back color things I said, and said this to someone else I know (I was there- it was not behind my back). I believe she was incorrect, and so do several other people- but I learned how I got there: the order of my statements gave that appearance. It was an honest error on her part. Now, the other person does not really respect me anymore. Is there a way to help him see that I am not like

that? It has really made me feel badly, since this is someone who used to think highly of me, and I thought highly of him, and he has acted very dismissive of me since that point. Again, this is not someone I can just walk away from easily.Thanks for reading this, even if you haven't got any answers. I know I can't change anyone, but would love to address even a little piece of this.

From: "delythdelythbolt (DOT) com" <delythdelythbolt (DOT) com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Sun, April 4, 2010 2:51:40 PMSubject: [aspires-relationsh ips] Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi

Yes, I am saying that I address the feelings only first. Once the feelings are sorted, I might go further and discuss the 'reasonableness' or 'rightness' or 'facts' behind those feelings. But it would very much depend on the person and the situation... wish there was an easy answer!

I think Liz's statement about not putting the word 'you' as a subject in the apology is a useful general guideline.

Delyth

April 5, 2010

Princess wrote:

> Hi Delyth,

>

> This is helpful. Thanks for writing back. I am in a situation where I

> need to ask what I have done wrong and cannot seem to do it without

> creating another offense. I have tried to compare one thing to another

> to explain what I was talking about, and risked giving the appearance of

> accusing someone of playing favorites (which if the person did, then the

> person would never be able to say that, so it would be useless). I have

> reflected on what happened and given my best guess to try to correct

> things. This is not a situation I can just walk away from (or even want

> to), but I really think I may need to know more to avoid making the same

> error.

[ snip ]

Read Deborah Tannen. Read *all* of her books.

Maybe most relevant to your question at hand:

You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation

Conversational Style: Analyzing Talk among Friends

Google on " Amazon " Deborah Tannen " " , without the outer quotes. Or see:

<http://www.amazon.com/Deborah-Tannen/e/B000AQ3YWU>

NOT " pop " psychology, Tannen's the Real Deal.

Her credentials are impeccable. ...Critical and popular acceptance

awesome (hate that word!). She writes well - hers all are " easy reads "

yet very satisfying and very useful.

> Thanks for reading this, even if you haven't got any answers. I know I

> can't change anyone, but would love to address even a little piece of this.

From Tannen you'll learn how to address more than just little pieces.

- Bill, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

April 5, 2010

My doctor recommended this same author!

Re: Question about typical thinking and

hurt feelings

> Princess wrote:

>> Hi Delyth,

>>

>> This is helpful. Thanks for writing back. I am in a situation where I

>> need to ask what I have done wrong and cannot seem to do it without

>> creating another offense. I have tried to compare one thing to another

>> to explain what I was talking about, and risked giving the appearance of

>> accusing someone of playing favorites (which if the person did, then the

>> person would never be able to say that, so it would be useless). I have

>> reflected on what happened and given my best guess to try to correct

>> things. This is not a situation I can just walk away from (or even want

>> to), but I really think I may need to know more to avoid making the same

>> error.

> [ snip ]

>

> Read Deborah Tannen. Read *all* of her books.

April 6, 2010

,Interesting idea. I might try it- I can certainly email the second person. You are right that even though it feels funny to have to wait and not know how something was received, it is kind of better in that I can keep editing till I feel okay with things. I do much better online than I do face-to-face anyway, because when my face screws up when I think of how things feel, nobody is around to look at all the preliminary steps. Thanks,To: aspires-relationships Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 5:10:42 PMSubject: Re: Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi

Would it be helpful to write to this person and try to rectify the situation that way ? Sometimes when we write things down we have more time to think about how we want to say things.

I hope this gets resolved favorably for you.

Lowry

www.brendaandwaynef amilypetservices .com

Owner/Head Trainer Dyno Dogs Performing Dog Team

Founder/Owner Kinder Way Canine Studies

Become a Certified Dog Trainer, Behaviour and Aggression Consultant

NEW!!! Become a Certified Dog /Pet Sitter

NEW!!! Become a Professional Dog Groomer

Professional Dog /Pet Sitter

Professional Dog Groomer

ABTA Certified Trainer

Behavior Consultant

Aggression Consultant

C.A.P.P.D.T member

Ontario East Regional Rep C.A.P.P.D.T.

I.P.D.T.A member

CKC member

CKC CGN Certified Evaluator

ABC Mentor Trainer

From: Princess <creativelywired@ yahoo.com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Mon, April 5, 2010 4:28:15 PMSubject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi Delyth,This is helpful. Thanks for writing back. I am in a situation where I need to ask what I have done wrong and cannot seem to do it without creating another offense. I have tried to compare one thing to another to explain what I was talking about, and risked giving the appearance of accusing someone of playing favorites (which if the person did, then the person would never be able to say that, so it would be useless). I have reflected on what happened and given my best guess to try to correct things. This is not a situation I can just walk away from (or even want to), but I really think I may need to know more to avoid making the same error. Sometimes, I have had to make a couple of "you" statements just to reference things to ask a question- but I am trying not to even give the appearance of judging someone-

but people seem to be taking it that way.I think my greatest difficulty seems to be having other people hold things about me, and not let me undo it when I said something out of sequence and they took an inference of something from the way my presentation was, and the inference was not correct. How can I increase the probability that someone who is holding something against me of this nature will let it go?One person I know and think very highly believed that I was letting something negative that happened to me awhile back color things I said, and said this to someone else I know (I was there- it was not behind my back). I believe she was incorrect, and so do several other people- but I learned how I got there: the order of my statements gave that appearance. It was an honest error on her part. Now, the other person does not really respect me anymore. Is there a way to help him see that I am not like

that? It has really made me feel badly, since this is someone who used to think highly of me, and I thought highly of him, and he has acted very dismissive of me since that point. Again, this is not someone I can just walk away from easily.Thanks for reading this, even if you haven't got any answers. I know I can't change anyone, but would love to address even a little piece of this.

From: "delythdelythbolt (DOT) com" <delythdelythbolt (DOT) com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Sun, April 4, 2010 2:51:40 PMSubject: [aspires-relationsh ips] Question about typical thinking and hurt feelings

Hi

Yes, I am saying that I address the feelings only first. Once the feelings are sorted, I might go further and discuss the 'reasonableness' or 'rightness' or 'facts' behind those feelings. But it would very much depend on the person and the situation... wish there was an easy answer!

I think Liz's statement about not putting the word 'you' as a subject in the apology is a useful general guideline.

Delyth

April 6, 2010

Bill,I have read other things she has written- I did not think of this- Thanks-To: aspires-relationships Sent: Mon, April 5, 2010 5:15:44 PMSubject: Re: Question about

typical thinking and hurt feelings