RE: Estradiol + Cortisol + Thyroid (nne + )

[Guest guest]

2)If you are feeling a bit bored, and would like to

amuse yourself by watching a doctor explode/implode

before your very eyes, spattering the walls with body

fluids (his OR yours) in a clinical setting...

just go to a cardiologist and tell him you are taking

4 grains of Armour.

No fair Trick or Treating!! Carolyn

You are too funny Carolyn,

Yes I was doing just that armour and additional T3. It gave me a very clear

brain!

I have felt a lot less shaky eliminating extra cytomel entirely, and now I

know the T3 in the armour is still too much. I have the book you mentioned,

and will get it out. I appreciate your time and efforts to again, tell me

what it in the very same books I have in my extensive library.

Back when I switched to armour 2 years ago, I was on .075synthroid. I wanted

armour,and got 1 grain. For the first time in my life, my feet we warn. I

was loving it. Then after a year of that, my TSH was 3.6 and the doc put me

on 2 grains. I liked the 2 grains, but my adrenals took a hit, so finding

several thyroid lists, realized it was too big a jump, I started with the

cortef. I should have gone up more slowly, as my new doc would have had me

do, but the old doc said armour wouldn't even work. My old doc didn't like

the suppressed TSH, and said I would get Osteoporosis so I had a bone scan.

It came out like a 25 year old, and I am 49.

Meanwhile I find a holistic doc, who knows about armour, and bio-identicals,

and does lots of testing, and writes for most things requested. Except the

wiley protocol, he was smart enough to not let me go there.

So the last time I see him, and we spoke of the shakiness, he said, you take

many things that could make you shaky, Start a spread sheet, and track your

doses, and how you are feeling.

So the bottom line I believe for me is this... All the various things that

made me shaky and " think " I am going to have a heart attack despite, low

weight, cholesterol, BP, and having done regular exercising my entire life,

and now, not even an apple shape.... Is that these are all the things that

oppose E!

So since now I have experienced the great feeling that comes with enough E,

the clear mind can come from that, and the excess t3 Is not necessary at

all. In fact, I it was very easy to get right off of, because I knew it was

messing with my E!

So the contraindications sheet is the most important paper I have read

lately, (thank you for sending it) along with this group.

Thanks again,

nne

[Guest guest]

Caroline, if your endo put you on 50 mcg Levoxyl and 5 mcg Cytomel BID, she put you on a ratio of of 20% T3 - much like the 22% in Armour. You may find that a 10% ratio is more to your liking. 10 mcg of Cytomel is approximately equal to 40 mcg of T4. Additionally, you are not getting the other "Ts" nor are you getting any calcitonin. When the thyroid fails, production of calcitonin stops.

I think Arem has the right idea about people needing T3. I think he's cracked about Armour. Armour is consistent from batch to batch. It is USP certified and approved by FDA.

I have a friend who was on Synthroid for 17 years. She was a therapist and exercise instructor prior to her thyroid failing. She got to where she'd sit on her front porch and cry because she didn't have the energy for anything else. Throughout this time, her TSH was "perfect." She was on the verge of seeking disability when she found Armour. Her whole world opened up. She's now a vibrant "go-all-the-time" doer. If you look on the Synthroid website, in the section for doctors, it openly advertises that Synthroid is to control the TSH. It says, "Synthroid - A Consistent Partner in TSH Control." No mention is made of healing people or eliminating symptoms.

My DDIL was ill all her life. When she was a baby, she'd sleep 20 hours and didn't eat unless someone woke her up. As a child, she remembers sitting on the couch, too weak to get up. When her mother took her to the docs, they'd test her for mono and pronounce her "lazy." In college, she'd go sleep in her truck between classes. She was given every anti-depressant with no positive result. Her TSH was always "normal." She lived with us for a month before she and my son got married. Immediately, I diagnosed her with hypothyroidism. She wore layer-upon-layer of clothing at night and had every blanket/quilt she could find. She got the PROPER thyroid tests. Her TSH was perfect but her T3 was way below the normal range and T4 was at the bottom of the normal range. She went on Armour and went on to become a near-pro triathlete. Lazy? I don't think so. I've never in my life seen such a determined young woman. TSH has never been an accurate measurement for her.

She's now due in November with her first child. When she was early pregnant, I insisted she up her Armour. Of course, everyone started freaking because her TSH got too low. Mind you, her FT3 and FT4 were falling as happens to hypo pregos in early pregnancy. Once her baby started producing thyroid on her own, DDIL started getting hyper feelings and cut back on her Armour. This baby will likely be born with normal intelligence because DDIL got ENOUGH thyroid med when the brain was developing.

These stories are all to illustrate that dependence on the almighty TSH has made many women sick, sometimes for most of their lives. DDIL has only had six healthy years out of her total of 29. So sad.

In terms of working with a doctor on thyroid meds, forget it. For me, I'm better than any I've been to. Had I not done my own research and learned what I need/can tolerate, I'd be dead by now. Only those who haven't done their homework should depend on the (often limited) knowledge of their docs. Endos are notoriously stupid about thyroid, especially if they specialize in diabetes. I expect that since I've doubled my E gel, I will need more T4. I've been taking 93 mcg/day. I'll probably need to increase that to 100 mcg (or more).

I think nne is getting too much T3 if she's taking Cytomel + Armour. nne, what do your FT3 and FT4 tests say? DDIL's doc tried to add Cytomel to her Armour because she knew DDIL needed more thyroid but she was trying not to lower the almighty TSH. Stupid. The added Cytomel nearly drove DDIL nuts.

Screech!!!! (That's the sound of my soapbox sliding back under my desk.) I only offer this stuff in the interest of promoting health and wellbeing. In no way am I trying to be disagreeable.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of carolyn egannne...are you taking both cytomel and Armour??If so...the amount of T3 is probably too much, or, atleast, you may not know how much you are actuallygetting, i.e., from the "hidden" amount in Armour,plus the "augmentation" that may be occuring from theCytomel in addition to the Armour.. and that mayexplain the "shaky" side effects, even more than lowE. Remember - T3 is a BRAIN hormone. Big time.Which, by the way...like with everything else with awoman, you need to get your E levels up to prime andenable the metabolism of everything else!!My endo put me on 50mcg Levoxyl, once in morning one hour beforebreakfast.5mcg Cytomel, at same time in morning with Levoxyl.5mcg Cytomel, at 2:00 afternoon between meals.I had a TSH of nearly 5, and apparently she thoughtthis to be a good starting dose with that reading.(Levoxyl tablet can also be cut in half = 25mcg)As per "weaning" off the Armour, I will again refer tothe classic thyroid book, "THE THYROID SOLUTION"by Ridha Arem, MD. An absolute "must read" for anyonesuffering from thryroid imbalances!! Even though I am becoming of the opinion that by thetime a medical book is written and published it isalready out of date (1999 on this one..)There IS agreat deal of information there, vital connectionsbetween stress and thyroid imbalances, interactionsand contraindications, support of proper diet,etc.etc.As an aside, Chapter 9 is an especially interestingread, and almost amusingly similar to characteristicsinherent in some of the (adult)ADD personality typesof afflictions of hostile temperament. There is, ofcourse, a biological connection. Perhaps Dr. Arem hadnot yet heard of the work of Dr. Amen.But, I digress....I've no doubt, however, that anyone struggling withthyroid issues, who can take the time to read thisbook, may also get an occasional "a-ha" moment of the"V-8" type in the "aw-geeez-I-coulda-donna----"ANYWAY..let me quote to you (w/parenthesis mine) from Chapter 17: Verse "Switching from the (Dessicated)Hormone to the T4/T3 Protocol"; pp 289-290(yeah, I know...Sunday services are not untiltommorrow..!!) "The trend of switching patients treated withdesiccated thyroid (that is, Armour thyroid) to thesynthetic (bioidentical) levothyroxine T4 (togetherwith the synthetic bioidentical triiodthyronine T3 toavoid variability (I'm just a' quotin' here, Val!!)in thyroid hormone levels has continued over theyears." Kaufman, Bross, Kennedy, "Thyroid Hormone Use:Trends in the United States from 1960 -1988"Study published in THYROID 1 (1991): 285-91Dr Arem continues: "Patients who have taken desiccatedthyroid for a long time, however, often resist beingswitched....(IF they are put on only T4 with noT3)...patients treated with desiccated thryroid who gothrough periods of high T3 levels in the brain for along time could theoretically experience A WITHDRAWALSYNDROME once the desiccated thyroid is stopped and (if only) replaced with T4, levothyroxine. In suchpatients, if one uses the comgination of levothyroxine(T4) and a small amount of T3 delivered in two divideddoses, symptoms of brain hypothyroidism - includingtiredness, exhaustion, and depression - often resolve.This approach has allowed me to successfully switchmany patients from desiccated thyroid to the(human)bioidentical synthetic thyroid.""A few of my patients, for reasons that have remainedunclear to me (fast forward to 2005 for more currentunderstanding), either have refused to be switched orhave tried my protocol for a few weeks and then askedto go back to the desiccated thyroid. Some of thesepeople strongly believe that the "natural" (to pigs)hormones are better than the (human bioidentical)synthetic ones. In such patients, quite often, reliefof symptoms is achieved at the expense of haviing alow TSH and a significant rise of T3 levels forseveral hours after taking the pill. This rise in T3causes a mental boost in many patients but can alsoproduce heart problems and bone loss." -R. Arem MDADDENDUM: 1)All docs say: never ever discontinue, increase ordecrease, your thyroid Rx on your own. Always consultand work with a good endocrinologist. A GP doc is NOwhere near educated or specialized enough in themultiple complex issues of balancing the endocrinesystem. Any idiot can up or down "grains" over thephone, in verbal a sashaying of symptoms. Many of thesymptoms can be symptiomatic of another disease orimbalance!!2)If you are feeling a bit bored, and would like toamuse yourself by watching a doctor explode/implodebefore your very eyes, spattering the walls with bodyfluids (his OR yours) in a clinical setting...just go to a cardiologist and tell him you are taking4 grains of Armour. No fair Trick or Treating!! Carolyn--- nne Skoog wrote:> Soooooo....I am told to take regular T4 and one/half> of my T3 in the morning one hour before breakfast,> and> then take the other half of my alloted T3 either one> hour before lunch, or (what I do) take it at about> 2:00 in afternoon, an hour both ways distant from> eating. (If my amount of T3 was to be increased, I> would be told to take the third T3 at 5:00 pm, one> hour before dinner.) Also, the importance of taking> at> the same time every day was made clear.> > Carolyn,> So how do I back track, and go from armour to t4> with 10% t3? I have> cytomel, but no synthroid, and I take 4 grains of> armour, which is probably> not being absorbed since I am taking it with food. > > Another fine mess I find myself in...> nne> > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

).

Val writes:

I think nne is getting too much T3 if

she's taking Cytomel + Armour. nne, what do your FT3 and FT4 tests

say? DDIL's doc tried to add Cytomel to her Armour because she knew DDIL

needed more thyroid but she was trying not to lower the almighty TSH.

Stupid. The added Cytomel nearly drove DDIL nuts.

Val, I totally

agree with your post.

How did the

extra cytomel drive your DDIL nuts?

 I added extra

cytomel, because I was treating fibro symptoms outlined by the Lowes. I was on

2 1/2 grains armour and 25mcg t3 divided throughout the day. I did pretty well

on that for a year and 1/2.

My T3 was “just”

over the top of the range even with all that t3. T4 was ¾ up and TSH suppressed.

All was well until I made a few adjustments in diet, supplements and E, and my

program went topsy -turvy.

My doc didn’t

care about my TSH, especially with the good bone scan. He also told me you can’t

do any harm with up to 2 grains of armour. He also didn’t care about the T3

because my heart seemed to be in no peril. He had my husband, with heart disease;

go much slower on the armour increases. He has Hashi’s, and according to

my doc, all thyroid tests are invalid, one you have antibodies,  so he has to

monitor himself with the way he feels. I always notice his hypo ness, and have

him increase. He can’t seem to see the puffy eyes, depression, naps, and

low body temperature.

My son even takes

2 grains of armour. Doc doesn’t even want me to re-test him to monitor.  He

said it wasn’t that much, and his body would just make less, if it was. I

use temperature, and behavior to adjust. In the olden days, doctors used many ways

to determine. They could just look at someone and tell. Those are the things my

young doc does too. I guess that is what a holistic doc is, rather than a specialist.

Thanks,

nne

[Guest guest]

She was a nervous wreck and couldn't sleep; getting quite hot. BTW, "nervous wreck" is not a medical term *hehe*

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of nne Skoog

Val writes:

I think nne is getting too much T3 if she's taking Cytomel + Armour. nne, what do your FT3 and FT4 tests say? DDIL's doc tried to add Cytomel to her Armour because she knew DDIL needed more thyroid but she was trying not to lower the almighty TSH. Stupid. The added Cytomel nearly drove DDIL nuts.

Val, I totally agree with your post.

How did the extra cytomel drive your DDIL nuts?

[Guest guest]

Val,

Well that sounds

very familiar. I kept telling my husband, I felt like I was going to jump out

of my skin, and I thought I was having a nervous breakdown.

I kept thinking

it was adrenal failure or something, but cortef made it worse. It has

been too much T3 all along. I also couldn’t sleep, and very hot. All

symptoms of low E for me. The E and T3 are antagonists no doubt. I also

had a lot of sagging skin starting with the T3 and cortef use. I always read

that sagging skin was from no GH. Well after doing GH, and no improvements whatsoever,

I realize the skin issue is lack of E. And that t3 cortef T and GH, are all E antagonists.

Therefore all the things I was doing to reduce E, have been my problem all

along. That is what I thought, but I was afraid to do enough E to compensate, until

recently. I finally get it. Balance is key, and not changing too many things at

once, like I usually do…LOL.

Thanks,

nne

She was a nervous wreck and couldn't

sleep; getting quite hot. BTW, " nervous wreck " is not a medical

term *hehe*

[Guest guest]

It takes patience ... Changing too much at once leaves one muddle-headed. I keep a record on an Excel spreadsheet.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of nne Skoog

and not changing too many things at once, like I usually do…LOL.

[Guest guest]

Just like my

smart young doc told me to do!

Taurus, aren’t

known for patience BTW. We bulls can get into trouble barging in!

Thanks,

nne

It takes patience ... Changing too

much at once leaves one muddle-headed. I keep a record on an Excel

spreadsheet.

Val

[Guest guest]

Val writes:

She's now due in November with her first

child. When she was early pregnant, I insisted she up her

Armour. Of course, everyone started freaking because her TSH got too

low. Mind you, her FT3 and FT4 were falling as happens to hypo

pregos in early pregnancy. Once her baby started producing thyroid on her

own, DDIL started getting hyper feelings and cut back on her Armour. This

baby will likely be born with normal intelligence because DDIL got ENOUGH

thyroid med when the brain was developing.

BRAVO VAL,

I’m sure

she will not have an autistic child like I did, due to under treated hypo! I

was on synthroid at that time with a TSH around 4. Always presented as just

right!.....wrong. Who knew what the Free’s were, since they wouldn’t

check them, and I didn’t know enough to insist….live and learn….

nne

[Guest guest]

VAl...life experience is sacred!! Thank you!!!

Carolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> Caroline, if your endo put you on 50 mcg Levoxyl and

> 5 mcg Cytomel BID, she

> put you on a ratio of of 20% T3 - much like the 22%

> in Armour. You may find

> that a 10% ratio is more to your liking. 10 mcg of

> Cytomel is approximately

> equal to 40 mcg of T4. Additionally, you are not

> getting the other " Ts " nor

> are you getting any calcitonin. When the thyroid

> fails, production of

> calcitonin stops.

>

> I think Arem has the right idea about people needing

> T3. I think he's

> cracked about Armour. Armour is consistent from

> batch to batch. It is USP

> certified and approved by FDA.

>

> I have a friend who was on Synthroid for 17 years.

> She was a therapist and

> exercise instructor prior to her thyroid failing.

> She got to where she'd

> sit on her front porch and cry because she didn't

> have the energy for

> anything else. Throughout this time, her TSH was

> " perfect. " She was on the

> verge of seeking disability when she found Armour.

> Her whole world opened

> up. She's now a vibrant " go-all-the-time " doer. If

> you look on the

> Synthroid website, in the section for doctors, it

> openly advertises that

> Synthroid is to control the TSH. It says,

> " Synthroid - A Consistent Partner

> in TSH Control. " No mention is made of healing

> people or eliminating

> symptoms.

>

> My DDIL was ill all her life. When she was a baby,

> she'd sleep 20 hours and

> didn't eat unless someone woke her up. As a child,

> she remembers sitting on

> the couch, too weak to get up. When her mother took

> her to the docs, they'd

> test her for mono and pronounce her " lazy. " In

> college, she'd go sleep in

> her truck between classes. She was given every

> anti-depressant with no

> positive result. Her TSH was always " normal. " She

> lived with us for a

> month before she and my son got married.

> Immediately, I diagnosed her with

> hypothyroidism. She wore layer-upon-layer of

> clothing at night and had

> every blanket/quilt she could find. She got the

> PROPER thyroid tests. Her

> TSH was perfect but her T3 was way below the normal

> range and T4 was at the

> bottom of the normal range. She went on Armour and

> went on to become a

> near-pro triathlete. Lazy? I don't think so. I've

> never in my life seen

> such a determined young woman. TSH has never been

> an accurate measurement

> for her.

>

> She's now due in November with her first child.

> When she was early

> pregnant, I insisted she up her Armour. Of course,

> everyone started

> freaking because her TSH got too low. Mind you, her

> FT3 and FT4 were

> falling as happens to hypo pregos in early

> pregnancy. Once her baby started

> producing thyroid on her own, DDIL started getting

> hyper feelings and cut

> back on her Armour. This baby will likely be born

> with normal intelligence

> because DDIL got ENOUGH thyroid med when the brain

> was developing.

>

> These stories are all to illustrate that dependence

> on the almighty TSH has

> made many women sick, sometimes for most of their

> lives. DDIL has only had

> six healthy years out of her total of 29. So sad.

>

> In terms of working with a doctor on thyroid meds,

> forget it. For me, I'm

> better than any I've been to. Had I not done my own

> research and learned

> what I need/can tolerate, I'd be dead by now. Only

> those who haven't done

> their homework should depend on the (often limited)

> knowledge of their docs.

> Endos are notoriously stupid about thyroid,

> especially if they specialize in

> diabetes. I expect that since I've doubled my E

> gel, I will need more T4.

> I've been taking 93 mcg/day. I'll probably need to

> increase that to 100 mcg

> (or more).

>

> I think nne is getting too much T3 if she's

> taking Cytomel + Armour.

> nne, what do your FT3 and FT4 tests say?

> DDIL's doc tried to add

> Cytomel to her Armour because she knew DDIL needed

> more thyroid but she was

> trying not to lower the almighty TSH. Stupid. The

> added Cytomel nearly

> drove DDIL nuts.

>

> Screech!!!! (That's the sound of my soapbox sliding

> back under my desk.) I

> only offer this stuff in the interest of promoting

> health and wellbeing. In

> no way am I trying to be disagreeable.

>

> Val

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> carolyn egan

>

>

> nne...are you taking both cytomel and

> Armour??

> If so...the amount of T3 is probably too much, or,

> at

> least, you may not know how much you are actually

> getting, i.e., from the " hidden " amount in Armour,

> plus the " augmentation " that may be occuring from

> the

> Cytomel in addition to the Armour.. and that may

> explain the " shaky " side effects, even more than

> low

> E. Remember - T3 is a BRAIN hormone. Big time.

>

>

> Which, by the way...like with everything else with

> a

> woman, you need to get your E levels up to prime

> and

> enable the metabolism of everything else!!

>

> My endo put me on

> 50mcg Levoxyl, once in morning one hour before

> breakfast.

> 5mcg Cytomel, at same time in morning with

> Levoxyl.

> 5mcg Cytomel, at 2:00 afternoon between meals.

>

> I had a TSH of nearly 5, and apparently she

> thought

> this to be a good starting dose with that reading.

> (Levoxyl tablet can also be cut in half = 25mcg)

>

> As per " weaning " off the Armour, I will again

> refer to

> the classic thyroid book, " THE THYROID SOLUTION "

> by Ridha Arem, MD. An absolute " must read " for

> anyone

> suffering from thryroid imbalances!!

> Even though I am becoming of the opinion that by

> the

> time a medical book is written and published it is

> already out of date (1999 on this one..)There IS a

> great deal of information there, vital connections

> between stress and thyroid imbalances,

> interactions

> and contraindications, support of proper diet,

> etc.etc.

>

> As an aside, Chapter 9 is an especially

> interesting

> read, and almost amusingly similar to

> characteristics

> inherent in some of the (adult)ADD personality

> types

> of afflictions of hostile temperament. There is,

> of

> course, a biological connection. Perhaps Dr. Arem

> had

> not yet heard of the work of Dr. Amen.

> But, I digress....

>

> I've no doubt, however, that anyone struggling

> with

> thyroid issues, who can take the time to read this

> book, may also get an occasional " a-ha " moment of

> the

> " V-8 " type in the " aw-geeez-I-coulda-donna---- "

>

> ANYWAY..let me quote to you (w/parenthesis mine)

> from

> Chapter 17: Verse " Switching from the (Dessicated)

> Hormone to the T4/T3 Protocol " ; pp 289-290

>

> (yeah, I know...Sunday services are not until

> tommorrow..!!)

>

=== message truncated ===

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