What is your optimal free T3 level?

[Guest guest]

For those who have been on Armour a while: have you found an optimal

lab number for your free T3? i.e. a place where you feel good,

and/or a place where you don't?

Also, has anybody found a website which lists what a NON-thyroid-

diseased person's free T4 and free T3 are??

Janie

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

Well, I know I definately do not feel well when my Free T3 is at 0.8,

which is the lowest on the lab range of 0.8 to 1.8. I don't know

what my Free T3 is when I'm feeling good . . . yet. I will be

getting my lab work done mid-April. I felt pretty good last December

when my TSH was at 0.28 (0.4 to 5.5), but I didn't have my FT3 and

FT4 tested at that time. Of course, my idiot PA made me drop my dose

of Armour once she saw my TSH at 0.28. That is why my numbers

dropped and I started to feel bad again. I started back on 1 grain

of Armour in February, and am starting to feel better, though I'm

having a hard time with PMS. One week prior to getting my cycle, I

get extremely irritable. Would you contribute that to having an

adrenal problem?

Anyway, that is about all I can tell you. I haven't come across any

websites that have what a non-thyroid diseased person's FT3 and FT4

are. Sorry.

Zina

> For those who have been on Armour a while: have you found an

optimal

> lab number for your free T3? i.e. a place where you feel good,

> and/or a place where you don't?

>

> Also, has anybody found a website which lists what a NON-thyroid-

> diseased person's free T4 and free T3 are??

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

I forgot that you were the one whose doc reduced your dose based on

your TSH alone. STUPID!!! I'm not sure that PMS would be a result of

adrenals, but it definitely can be a result of a non-optimal amount

of T3. When I first made the switch to Armour, I was on way too

little for too long. Thus, when I had a period---Zowie!! What a

miserable one. Felt really bad. It's all such a delicate balance.

I had another lab done recently, and my free T3 had " dropped " to 3.7

from a high of 4.5 last November (range: 2.3 - 4.2). hmmmm. It could

be the estrogen I am taking, which I am decreasing in a week when my

new jar comes in. I also notice that I got a bit tired this weekend

after working 4 days in a row. Couldn't decide if it was my estrogen

level, or the lowered T3. 3.7 is not that low, but maybe I do better

on a higher amount. After I decrease the estrogen, I will see what

happens.

Janie

p.s. Still hoping someone can produce an article stating what a non-

diseased-thyroid person's free T3 and free T4 are!

[Guest guest]

>

> p.s. Still hoping someone can produce an article stating what a non-

> diseased-thyroid person's free T3 and free T4 are!

Janie...

Still looking, but Shoman's site says:

And reporting in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism earlier

in 2002, Danish researchers summarized an interesting study that looked at

the monthly thyroid levels -- T4, T3, free T4 index, and TSH -- of 16

healthy men with over a period of 12 months. What they found was that each

of the individuals had different variations of their thyroid function,

around unique levels - or " set points. " Each person had his own individual

thyroid function and normal level, and people tended to fluctute slightly

within their own range. These findings led the researchers to conclude that

a thyroid test result within a laboratory's reference limits - or " normal

range " -- is not necessarily normal for a particular individual. In fact,

the researchers also concluded that the distinction between subclinical and

overt thyroid disease (abnormal serum TSH and abnormal T4 and/or T3) is

somewhat arbitrary, because the patient's normal set point for T4 and T3

within the laboratory reference range is actually illustrative and needs to

be taken into account.

[Guest guest]

Janie, I wonder if you will like decreased estrogen? I think you might miss

it but you try it and see. I think maybe T3 went down because of the

testosterone addition. I think (theory) that high T3 means it isn't being

utilized efficiently, can't hook up with other buddy hormones.

Gracia

on a higher amount. After I decrease the estrogen, I will see what

happens.

Janie

p.s. Still hoping someone can produce an article stating what a non-

diseased-thyroid person's free T3 and free T4 are!

[Guest guest]

> Janie, I wonder if you will like decreased estrogen? I think

you might miss it but you try it and see. I think maybe T3 went

down because of the testosterone addition. I think (theory) that

high T3 means it isn't being utilized efficiently, can't hook up

with other buddy hormones.

> Gracia

Well, I " think " it was the estrogen amount that was causing me to

have soreness you-know-where at different points in my cycle. But

she is not decreasing it be half, I noticed. Just 25%. I'll let you

know.

We need to find out if your theory is correct about my T3 dropping

because of the added Testosterone. I also note that I felt tired

after working 4 days last week, and still do. hmmmm. Can't figure

out if it's my female hormones, or if I need more testosterone, OR

(and this is a good one) if my body is simply adjusting to getting a

LOT more energy demands. haha That would be a good one!!

Janie

[Guest guest]

>What they found was that each of the individuals had different

>variations of their thyroid function, around unique levels -

>or " set points. " Each person had his own individual thyroid

>function and normal level, and people tended to fluctute slightly

>within their own range. These findings led the researchers to

>conclude that a thyroid test result within a laboratory's reference

>limits - or " normal range " -- is not necessarily normal for a

>particular individual.

Now that is interesting. Wonder what OUR set points/ranges are???

And boy does THAT info throw lab ranges out the window!!!!!!!!

Especially the ridiculous TSH!! Nothing worse than hearing someone

being taken off their Armour, or having it lowered, because their

TSH was " low " (Zina).

Janie

[Guest guest]

Thought you'd like to know, I just learned how they do it, and gals, they

cheat. They cheat really really bad. The numbers mean nothing, I do not know

why we waste our time and money. A free T3 and Free t4 is nothing more than

some math and a guess based on your totals. If you think you are getting the

gold standard, you are wrong. When you get them done, its math. Read on:

Direct measurement of free T4: Since free thyroid hormones are available to

peripheral tissues, directly measuring serum free T4 avoids the pitfalls of

interpreting total T4 levels, which are influenced by the level of the

binding proteins. Thus, serum free T4 levels more accurately diagnose true

thyroid function than total T4. Direct measurement of serum free T4 level is

most accurately assessed by equilibrium dialysis, which is time-consuming,

expensive, technically demanding, and unavailable in most commercial

laboratories. This method separates bound from free hormone. The gold

standard for measuring serum free T4 is overnight equilibrium dialysis of

serum containing 125I-T4; the percentage of free T4 is calculated by

determining the total counts in the dialysate divided by the total 125I-T4

added to the serum multiplied by the total T4 concentration. A simplified

version is available in kit form; free T4 is measured in the dialysate by

immunoassay.

Indirect estimation of free T4: These measurements are readily available,

are simpler, and compare extremely well with the methods for measuring

direct free T4 mentioned above. Index methods require two independent tests,

one measuring total serum T4 and the other measuring thyroid hormone-binding

ratio or T3 resin uptake. The free T4 index is then calculated using the

total T4 and the TBG level, the thyroid hormone-binding ratio, or T3 resin

uptake. The index is directly proportional to the free T4 level. Immunoassay

methods are standardized against a direct measurement of free T4 by

equilibrium dialysis, thus results are reported in absolute units (ng/dL or

pmol/L). The two most commonly used methods are a two-step and a one-step

immunoassay method using a T4 analog. These assays are not completely free

of the influence of binding proteins or substances in serum that may result

in false increases or decreases in the free T4 levels.

Measurement of total serum T3 and free T3: Since T3 is tightly bound to TBG

(although 10 times less than T4) but not to transthyretin, total serum T3

levels measured by the same methods described above for total T4 will be

influenced by alterations in the serum TBG level and by drugs that affect

binding to TBG. Free T3 levels in the serum are measured by the same direct

and indirect methods described above for T4.

[Guest guest]

This was the link to the way they do the tests...sorry I forgot to post it

before

http://www.tclonline.com/for_doc/Thyroid_4_doc.htm

[Guest guest]

SEe what happens? You send me on a quest for information and I find more

than we bargained for. OK...so now we know know the tests are

useless...everyone is different, we all have our own healthy points (or

SHOULD) and that the tests are done by using some math and there is all

sorts of room for human error-not to mention its an esitmation based on your

frees vs. some stuff the T3 binds to. Thats just great. TSH makes no

flipping difference. I wonder if they grade cortisol on a curve? We all know

my last hemoglobin was WAY wrong. Do the doctors even know how these tests

are preformed...they don't even know, do they? They have NO CLUE that they

are making clinical absolute statements like " You are euthyroid " based on

stuff that doesn't mean jack!

Also, I was reading the thyroid secretes about 1 mcg per lb of bodyweight of

hormone per day. That is how they came up with " take one little .125 of

levoxyl every day and be healthy " . OK...now, I weigh a little under 100 lbs.

so, technically, I should be getting about 88 to 90 mcg of hormone per day.

I am getting .05 of T4. Which means, since my T4 levels are so normal (if we

believed the useless test) that my thyroid must still be finctioning by

about 1/2 on its own to make up the rest. Which means I was only getting

about 1/2 my T3 before, which means that now that its is supressed, I am

getting even less. Sigh. And guess what? Thats all of us who have been on

T4! So, now, we are going to have to pretend this is 1899 and just medicate

based on symptoms, cause we know even though over 100 years have passed,

they think they know more about thyroid but indeed they know less.

yeah, is on a rampage. I am SO done.

[Guest guest]

Okay.. I'm gonna throw a fit here...

1 mcg of T4 ($ynthroid) per pound of body weight per day? Did I

understand that correctly?

So.. my gland got nuked to non existence.. and the largest dose I ever

got was 200 mcg... and I haven't been that weight since high school... I

was holding at 277 all the years that I was lifting weights with a body

fat of 20 to 21% When I went hyper I dropped as low as 220.... when they

finally got me stable and supposedly had my blood levels where they were

supposed to be and my dose correct (200 mcg) my weight held at 311. Still

on a dose ($ynthroid) of 200 mcg.

According to the info that you just found.. I felt like shit for all

those years.. not only from being on a synthetic, but because I was UNDER

DOSED by some 30%?

Does anyone know if it's possible to get hold of records going back as

far as 13 years? Now I want to see what they were testing me for and what

my numbers were.. did they just give me the largest dose available? (A

pharmacist once told me that 200 mcg was the largest $ynthroid tablet

available)

Topper ()

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Thyroid_Support_Group/

http://toppertwo.tripod.com

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:15:36 -0500 " Jobes "

writes:

> SEe what happens? You send me on a quest for information and I find

> more

> than we bargained for. OK...so now we know know the tests are

> useless...everyone is different, we all have our own healthy points

> (or

> SHOULD) and that the tests are done by using some math and there is

> all

> sorts of room for human error-not to mention its an esitmation based

> on your

> frees vs. some stuff the T3 binds to. Thats just great. TSH makes

> no

> flipping difference. I wonder if they grade cortisol on a curve? We

> all know

> my last hemoglobin was WAY wrong. Do the doctors even know how these

> tests

> are preformed...they don't even know, do they? They have NO CLUE

> that they

> are making clinical absolute statements like " You are euthyroid "

> based on

> stuff that doesn't mean jack!

>

> Also, I was reading the thyroid secretes about 1 mcg per lb of

> bodyweight of

> hormone per day. That is how they came up with " take one little .125

> of

> levoxyl every day and be healthy " . OK...now, I weigh a little under

> 100 lbs.

> so, technically, I should be getting about 88 to 90 mcg of hormone

> per day.

> I am getting .05 of T4. Which means, since my T4 levels are so

> normal (if we

> believed the useless test) that my thyroid must still be finctioning

> by

> about 1/2 on its own to make up the rest. Which means I was only

> getting

> about 1/2 my T3 before, which means that now that its is supressed,

> I am

> getting even less. Sigh. And guess what? Thats all of us who have

> been on

> T4! So, now, we are going to have to pretend this is 1899 and just

> medicate

> based on symptoms, cause we know even though over 100 years have

> passed,

> they think they know more about thyroid but indeed they know less.

>

> yeah, is on a rampage. I am SO done.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Also, I was reading the thyroid secretes about 1 mcg per lb of

bodyweight of hormone per day.

1 mcg. of which hormones, I wonder?? All the T's??

> So, now, we are going to have to pretend this is 1899 and just

> medicate based on symptoms, cause we know even though over 100

> years have passed, they think they know more about thyroid but

> indeed they know less.

We would have been put on Armour in 1899 since that is what they had

then, except not called Armour.

Janie

[Guest guest]

topper, I could be wrong, but I will try to find that link again, OK?

And yes, even if the doctor at that office is not practicing, as long as it

is still a docs office they keep the records. The records always exist.

[Guest guest]

> 1 mcg of T4 ($ynthroid) per pound of body weight per day? Did I

> understand that correctly?

>

> So.. my gland got nuked to non existence.. and the largest dose I ever

> got was 200 mcg... and I haven't been that weight since high school...

Topper...OK...while I couldn't find the link (I should have bookmarked it

last night) the synthroid.com web site indicated roughly 1.6 kg -roughly a

pound-of bodyweight to 1 mcg of synth as a dosage guideline. So, yeah, you

were way under-dosed. Not that it would have mattered. My guess is you would

have felt like crap even with more synthroid. I know I still have part of my

thyroid funcational, and the synth still makes me feel like crap.

[Guest guest]

did they just give me the largest dose available? (A

> pharmacist once told me that 200 mcg was the largest $ynthroid tablet

> available)

>

> Topper ()

No, 300 is the biggest dose. They were wrong, unless it has changed. All the

companies make a 300 mcg pill. Besides, you could have taken a 200 mcg and

extra if needed....

[Guest guest]

Thanks, ...

Topper ()

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:14:49 -0500 " Jobes "

writes:

> topper, I could be wrong, but I will try to find that link again,

> OK?

>

> And yes, even if the doctor at that office is not practicing, as

> long as it

> is still a docs office they keep the records. The records always

> exist.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was just spitting mad last night...

So much of the 'bad' that I was feeling all those years I wrote off to

not exercising the way that I used to and to getting older.. then I

learned about Naturals and determined that I was not a good T4 to T3

converter.. and that Naturals were the answer.... and that is probably

true.... but to find out that all those years that I was under dosed...

flat out, don't even need to run any tests... just being all messed up

with and caused all the pain and discomfort and misery....

damn... sorry.. it's just so unfair... I took good care of myself.. it

was the first time I'd ever gone to the doc because I thought something

was wrong with me and didn't know what.. any other time I'd ever seen a

doc was when I needed a penicillin shot or had been in an accident.. they

had no right to ignore me and blow me off like that...

....they wrecked a life....

....so to heck with 'em.. I've found Naturals.. I can self medicate.. I

now have a way to have my blood tested when it comes time to fine tune...

at 45 I still have a lot of years ahead of me... Getting on the proper

dose of good meds.. I can have me back, right? *BIG grin*

I'll get back into lifting weights.. get my gumption back.. and then I'm

gonna be kicking some medical butt around the block!!!!!!!!

Topper ()

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:42:03 -0500 " Jobes "

writes:

>

>

>

> > 1 mcg of T4 ($ynthroid) per pound of body weight per day? Did I

> > understand that correctly?

> >

> > So.. my gland got nuked to non existence.. and the largest dose I

> ever

> > got was 200 mcg... and I haven't been that weight since high

> school...

>

> Topper...OK...while I couldn't find the link (I should have

> bookmarked it

> last night) the synthroid.com web site indicated roughly 1.6 kg

> -roughly a

> pound-of bodyweight to 1 mcg of synth as a dosage guideline. So,

> yeah, you

> were way under-dosed. Not that it would have mattered. My guess is

> you would

> have felt like crap even with more synthroid. I know I still have

> part of my

> thyroid funcational, and the synth still makes me feel like crap.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Remember, I've not been to a doc or Pharmacy in almost 6 years.. at that

time the Pharmacist said 200 was it.... and yeah.. I had to mix pills in

the past.. but no one ever prescribed more than 200..ever...

I've been able to get the adrenal supplement up to a quarter tab a day..

and my body is handling it just fine... I think it just needed time to

adjust.. I'm gonna be ordering more OTC thyroid this week and upping that

dosage another quarter tab... I feel a gazillion times better than I did

before I found this stuff.. but I want to feel GOOD.. and I don't feel

GOOD yet.... I have a ways to go.. but I think I'm on the right track....

My poor bod is just so beat up and run down from all the abuse.... it

needs time to heal, I think.....

I do know it helps to be able to talk to other folks facing so many of

the same issues that I am.. before I felt like I was all alone and no one

understood.. that makes it way too easy to become depressed and that is

something we do NOT need help achieving! hehehehe

Topper ()

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:49:21 -0500 " Jobes "

writes:

> did they just give me the largest dose available? (A

> > pharmacist once told me that 200 mcg was the largest $ynthroid

> tablet

> > available)

> >

> > Topper ()

>

> No, 300 is the biggest dose. They were wrong, unless it has changed.

> All the

> companies make a 300 mcg pill. Besides, you could have taken a 200

> mcg and

> extra if needed....

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

Thank you so much. I'm hoping that its just too low a dose of Armour

and that the solution will simply be upping my dose. I hate all

this " wait and see " stuff. Grrrrr I get to reading stuff and then

wonder if something else could be wrong with me too.

Yah, a T3 of 3.7 is pretty good (mine was 2.69), but you obviously do

better higher. Do you know as a fact that the estrogen would make

your T3 drop? I'm just curious about these kinds of things.

Take care,

Zina

> I forgot that you were the one whose doc reduced your dose based on

> your TSH alone. STUPID!!! I'm not sure that PMS would be a result

of

> adrenals, but it definitely can be a result of a non-optimal amount

> of T3. When I first made the switch to Armour, I was on way too

> little for too long. Thus, when I had a period---Zowie!! What a

> miserable one. Felt really bad. It's all such a delicate balance.

>

> I had another lab done recently, and my free T3 had " dropped " to

3.7

> from a high of 4.5 last November (range: 2.3 - 4.2). hmmmm. It

could

> be the estrogen I am taking, which I am decreasing in a week when

my

> new jar comes in. I also notice that I got a bit tired this weekend

> after working 4 days in a row. Couldn't decide if it was my

estrogen

> level, or the lowered T3. 3.7 is not that low, but maybe I do

better

> on a higher amount. After I decrease the estrogen, I will see what

> happens.

>

> Janie

>

> p.s. Still hoping someone can produce an article stating what a non-

> diseased-thyroid person's free T3 and free T4 are!

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Where did you get this information?

Zina

> Thought you'd like to know, I just learned how they do it, and

gals, they

> cheat. They cheat really really bad. The numbers mean nothing, I do

not know

> why we waste our time and money. A free T3 and Free t4 is nothing

more than

> some math and a guess based on your totals. If you think you are

getting the

> gold standard, you are wrong. When you get them done, its math.

Read on:

>

> Direct measurement of free T4: Since free thyroid hormones are

available to

> peripheral tissues, directly measuring serum free T4 avoids the

pitfalls of

> interpreting total T4 levels, which are influenced by the level of

the

> binding proteins. Thus, serum free T4 levels more accurately

diagnose true

> thyroid function than total T4. Direct measurement of serum free T4

level is

> most accurately assessed by equilibrium dialysis, which is time-

consuming,

> expensive, technically demanding, and unavailable in most commercial

> laboratories. This method separates bound from free hormone. The

gold

> standard for measuring serum free T4 is overnight equilibrium

dialysis of

> serum containing 125I-T4; the percentage of free T4 is calculated by

> determining the total counts in the dialysate divided by the total

125I-T4

> added to the serum multiplied by the total T4 concentration. A

simplified

> version is available in kit form; free T4 is measured in the

dialysate by

> immunoassay.

>

> Indirect estimation of free T4: These measurements are readily

available,

> are simpler, and compare extremely well with the methods for

measuring

> direct free T4 mentioned above. Index methods require two

independent tests,

> one measuring total serum T4 and the other measuring thyroid

hormone-binding

> ratio or T3 resin uptake. The free T4 index is then calculated

using the

> total T4 and the TBG level, the thyroid hormone-binding ratio, or

T3 resin

> uptake. The index is directly proportional to the free T4 level.

Immunoassay

> methods are standardized against a direct measurement of free T4 by

> equilibrium dialysis, thus results are reported in absolute units

(ng/dL or

> pmol/L). The two most commonly used methods are a two-step and a

one-step

> immunoassay method using a T4 analog. These assays are not

completely free

> of the influence of binding proteins or substances in serum that

may result

> in false increases or decreases in the free T4 levels.

>

> Measurement of total serum T3 and free T3: Since T3 is tightly

bound to TBG

> (although 10 times less than T4) but not to transthyretin, total

serum T3

> levels measured by the same methods described above for total T4

will be

> influenced by alterations in the serum TBG level and by drugs that

affect

> binding to TBG. Free T3 levels in the serum are measured by the

same direct

> and indirect methods described above for T4.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Never mind my previous post then! Thanks.

Zina

> This was the link to the way they do the tests...sorry I forgot to

post it

> before

>

> http://www.tclonline.com/for_doc/Thyroid_4_doc.htm

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

>

> Never mind my previous post then! Thanks.

>

> Zina

Zina, isn't that wild? So much for tests. Once I get my cortisol back I'll

be asking for Armour and dose my damn self based on how I feel.

[Guest guest]

,

I'm certainly not going to go by some stupid numbers on a lab sheet -

never again (I'll test just to see where my numbers are, so I have

something to go by). I'm going by how I feel and I will dose myself

too, just like you, if I have to.

Zina

>

> > Hi ,

> >

> > Never mind my previous post then! Thanks.

> >

> > Zina

>

> Zina, isn't that wild? So much for tests. Once I get my cortisol

back I'll

> be asking for Armour and dose my damn self based on how I feel.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Do you know as a fact that the estrogen would make

> your T3 drop? I'm just curious about these kinds of things.

I am thinking the combination of the estrogen plus the testosterone,

which partly converts to estrogen (isn't that right, Anita?) has

bound a bit more of my free T3, making the lab result lower. Just a

guess. But I'm doing ok, so far!!

Janie Zippy Bubblesniffer

[Guest guest]

Hi Zippy Bubblesniffer (giggle)

What you are saying makes perfect sense. I sure hope I become as

knowledgeable about all this stuff as you are, oh mighty

Bubblesniffer! LOL No, seriously, I really do. I got such a

laugh out the new name thing. I told my husband and we both

laughed. Mr. and Mrs. Gizzardsniffer! LOL

Zina

> > Do you know as a fact that the estrogen would make

> > your T3 drop? I'm just curious about these kinds of things.

>

> I am thinking the combination of the estrogen plus the

testosterone,

> which partly converts to estrogen (isn't that right, Anita?) has

> bound a bit more of my free T3, making the lab result lower. Just a

> guess. But I'm doing ok, so far!!

>

> Janie Zippy Bubblesniffer