Re: Rumination and Dissociation

[Guest guest]

> The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine

> (February issue), and on page 66, it said " Contain Your

> Rumination.... Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15

> minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and

> you'll soon get bored of it and move on. "

I've come across this before - I suspect it's a CBT technique. I've

also seen it suggested as a way to control worry, which is very

much like rumination.

I wonder how well it would really work. In my case, worry and

rumination predominate when some event (e.g. perceived or real

rejection, failure, etc.) has trigged my stories and I am locked

into heavy-duty fusion. With me fusion spreads like wildfire in a

dry forest - I am dubious that I could restrict such deeply rutted

and contagious thoughts to " 15 minutes a day. "

I like to look at rumination and worry stories as containing

the seeds of values somewhere inside them. Each story as a complete

narrative tends to be very rigid, but if I look closely I can find

the stuff of which it is made - personal history with moments of

pain or loss, and moments of longing or connection too.

has done a lot of interesting work with rumination and

worry. He has a self-help ACT book coming out in May of this year,

" Things Might Go Terribly, Horribly Wrong: A Guide to Life

Liberated from Anxiety. " I bet there will be some neat exercises in

that book.

--Randy

[Guest guest]

Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that time each day. Bill> To: ACT_for_the_Public > Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000> Subject: Rumination and Dissociation> > hi all> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said "Contain Your Rumination.... Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?> > Tom> > > > ------------------------------------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links> > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/> > <*> Your email settings:> Individual Email | Traditional> > <*> To change settings online go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join> (Yahoo! ID required)> > <*> To change settings via email:> ACT_for_the_Public-digest > ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured > > <*>

[Guest guest]

This reminds me of all the anger management suggestions I've been given over the

years. All punching a pillow did for me was make me more angry!

Barbara

>

>

> Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT

would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead

with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing

(thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I

would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a

valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that

time each day.

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I was chatting today with a friend about the experience of ruminating, worrying, getting caught up in thoughts.

One thing to note on rumination and dissociation is that they are cues for defusion. See page 86 of GOOYMAITL. See the second half of the page under "When To Use Defusion". They write "Because fusion is everywhere, all the time, applied to everything, and unstoppable, we don't notice it. Here are some cues that will show you when you are fused with your thoughts." What follows is a list of cues/signs of fusion. I think the ACT idea here is that you want to practice noticing and recognizing these cues and make them cues to apply ACT skills--starting with defusion.. What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking about how to defend myself from this problem".

Right now I am working on connecting these experiences with my values i.e. recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination. In other words, I'm trying to gauge the value involved in ruminating and the values involved in the content of the rumination.

Anyone think this is ACT-inconsistent or have suggestions?

Okistuch

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public >Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 4:04:48 PMSubject: RE: Rumination and Dissociation

Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that time each day. Bill> To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com> From: thc2000cayahoo (DOT) com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000> Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation> > hi all> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I

tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today

magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said "Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?> > Tom> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych ology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri beyahoogroups (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

T, Perhaps you'd find page 86 in GOOYMAITYL helpful at the section "When To Use Defusion". Another possibly useful reading would be p.162 "Values and Failing" and p. 160 "Pain and Values" in GOOYM. Also, "Values Are Not In The Future" on p.161.

Okistuch

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 12:35:54 PMSubject: Rumination and Dissociation

hi alli've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to

spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said "Contain Your Rumination.. ... Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?Tom

[Guest guest]

You seem to be using the word value differently than ACT uses it. A value is a direction in which you want to take your life and is often stated as a verb, i.e. I value being a loving father; I value being a helpful friend. I value being a good and thoughtful ruminator is probably not a direction in which you want to take your life so I wouldn't spend much time on "recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination." Sounds like more rumination to me.What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am

arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking

about how to defend myself from this problem".I think that what you are describing is your observing self at work - noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing your thoughts. I think it's okay to do this but you must quickly move on defusing from those ruminative thoughts by using some of the exercises - milk, milk, milk, milk; silly voices; thanking your mind; ........ The purpose of all of these techniques is to stop taking your thoughts seriously. Try boiling your un-useful thought down to one word and then add add the prefix "sch_to it" - rumination schrumination, or laptop schmaptop, or panic schmanic. Something funny to break the cycle of importance you are placing on the thought. I stumbled into this and it works for me.BillTo: ACT_for_the_Public From: okisutch@...Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:35:37 -0800Subject: Re: Rumination and Dissociation

Hi All,

I was chatting today with a friend about the experience of ruminating, worrying, getting caught up in thoughts.

One thing to note on rumination and dissociation is that they are cues for defusion. See page 86 of GOOYMAITL. See the second half of the page under "When To Use Defusion". They write "Because fusion is everywhere, all the time, applied to everything, and unstoppable, we don't notice it. Here are some cues that will show you when you are fused with your thoughts." What follows is a list of cues/signs of fusion. I think the ACT idea here is that you want to practice noticing and recognizing these cues and make them cues to apply ACT skills--starting with defusion.. What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking about how to defend myself from this problem".

Right now I am working on connecting these experiences with my values i.e. recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination. In other words, I'm trying to gauge the value involved in ruminating and the values involved in the content of the rumination.

Anyone think this is ACT-inconsistent or have suggestions?

Okistuch

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public >Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 4:04:48 PMSubject: RE: Rumination and Dissociation

Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that time each day. Bill> To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com> From: thc2000cayahoo (DOT) com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000> Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation> > hi all> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I

tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today

magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said "Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?> > Tom> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych ology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri beyahoogroups (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

I have this similar problem when I'm trying to solve a work-related problem. Decision-making is inherently sort of dissociative. You think about possible outcomes of each choice. I go over and over it again trying to come up with a solution. It feels like rumination, and I get frustrated when no option seems to work, which seems to happen like 90 percent of the time. But obviously I value making good decisions about my work. Sometimes to avoid ruminating I'll pick the best option I can think up in a short time span, but those ideas rarely serve me in the long run. I would like to be able to make decisions without ruminating for weeks, years, whatever. Can ACT help with that?-AnneSubject: RE: Rumination and DissociationTo: "ACT_for_the_Public" <act_for_the_public >Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 6:00 PM

You seem to be using the word value differently than ACT uses it. A value is a direction in which you want to take your life and is often stated as a verb, i.e. I value being a loving father; I value being a helpful friend. I value being a good and thoughtful ruminator is probably not a direction in which you want to take your life so I wouldn't spend much time on "recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination." Sounds like more rumination to me.What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am

arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking

about how to defend myself from this problem".I think that what you are describing is your observing self at work - noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing your thoughts. I think it's okay to do this but you must quickly move on defusing from those ruminative thoughts by using some of the exercises - milk, milk, milk, milk; silly voices; thanking your mind; ........ The purpose of all of these techniques is to stop taking your thoughts seriously. Try boiling your un-useful thought down to one word and then add add the prefix "sch_to it" - rumination schrumination, or laptop schmaptop, or panic schmanic. Something funny to break the cycle of importance you are placing on the thought. I stumbled into this and it works for me.BillTo: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.comFrom: okisutchyahoo (DOT) comDate: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:35:37 -0800Subject: Re: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and

Dissociation

Hi All,

I was chatting today with a friend about the experience of ruminating, worrying, getting caught up in thoughts.

One thing to note on rumination and dissociation is that they are cues for defusion. See page 86 of GOOYMAITL. See the second half of the page under "When To Use Defusion". They write "Because fusion is everywhere, all the time, applied to everything, and unstoppable, we don't notice it. Here are some cues that will show you when you are fused with your thoughts." What follows is a list of cues/signs of fusion. I think the ACT idea here is that you want to practice noticing and recognizing these cues and make them cues to apply ACT skills--starting with defusion.. What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking about how to defend myself from this problem".

Right now I am working on connecting these experiences with my values i.e. recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination. In other words, I'm trying to gauge the value involved in ruminating and the values involved in the content of the rumination.

Anyone think this is ACT-inconsistent or have suggestions?

Okistuch

[Guest guest]

i think this sounds helpful. Thanks.Ruminating is a sign that i need to defuse. Spending more time or 15 min every day to wallow can be tricky. My feeling is that I may spend 15 min today, and because it is all very habitual, i may very well find myself spending 20 min next week, and then 30 min the week after, and then find myself ruminating even more so.For me time is wasted in ruminating, so sounds like i need to replace it with something else, as you said.TomSubject: RE: Rumination and DissociationTo: "ACT_for_the_Public"

<act_for_the_public >Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 4:04 PM

Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that time each day. Bill> To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com> From: thc2000cayahoo (DOT) com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000> Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation> > hi all> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I tend to think so much about stuff, i think about

what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said

"Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?> > Tom> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych ology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri beyahoogroups (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

You could make this work, from an ACT perspective, if you gave

it a twist: turn the ‘wallow time’ into a ‘leaves on a stream’ exercise. In other

words, sit down, and for 15 minutes bring up all the thoughts you normally tend

to wallow in, and put them all onto leaves and watch them float on by.

All the best,

Cheers,

Russ

www.actmadesimple.com

www.act-with-love.com

www.thehappinesstrap.com

www.actmindfully.com.au

From: ACT_for_the_Public

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of BILL CAMERON

Sent: Tuesday, 2 February 2010 8:05 AM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: RE: Rumination and Dissociation

Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent.

ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move

ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that

wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more

wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific

action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent

wallowing. Increase that time each day.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> From: thc2000ca@...

> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000

> Subject: Rumination and Dissociation

>

> hi all

>

> i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is

now february!

>

> I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I

tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i

think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about

what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i

think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see

i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time

on this.

>

> One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted

in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i

spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are,

but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people

involved, etc etc.

>

> Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking

about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.

>

> The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February issue),

and on page 66, it said " Contain Your Rumination.... Schedule limited

blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes tw ice per day. You're

compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move

on. "

>

> Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?

>

> Tom

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

>

> If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

> unsubscribe by sending an email to

> ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

>

> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/

>

> <*> Your email settings:

> Individual Email | Traditional

>

> <*> To change settings online go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

> (Yahoo! ID required)

>

> <*> To change settings via email:

> ACT_for_the_Public-digest

> ACT_for_the_Public-fullfeatured

>

> <*>

[Guest guest]

Thats really useful. I'll give that a go. Thanks.

Simone

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tue, 2 February, 2010 1:35:37Subject: Re: Rumination and Dissociation

Hi All,

I was chatting today with a friend about the experience of ruminating, worrying, getting caught up in thoughts.

One thing to note on rumination and dissociation is that they are cues for defusion. See page 86 of GOOYMAITL. See the second half of the page under "When To Use Defusion". They write "Because fusion is everywhere, all the time, applied to everything, and unstoppable, we don't notice it. Here are some cues that will show you when you are fused with your thoughts." What follows is a list of cues/signs of fusion. I think the ACT idea here is that you want to practice noticing and recognizing these cues and make them cues to apply ACT skills--starting with defusion.. What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking about how to defend myself from this problem".

Right now I am working on connecting these experiences with my values i.e. recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination. In other words, I'm trying to gauge the value involved in ruminating and the values involved in the content of the rumination.

Anyone think this is ACT-inconsistent or have suggestions?

Okistuch

From: BILL CAMERON <wcameromsn (DOT) com>To: ACT_for_the_ Public <act_for_the_ public@yahoogrou ps.com>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 4:04:48 PMSubject: RE: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation

Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that time each day. Bill> To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com> From: thc2000cayahoo (DOT) com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000> Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation> > hi all> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination -

whereby I tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology

Today magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said "Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?> > Tom> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych ology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri beyahoogroups (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

I agree that scheduling time to wallow in

negative thoughts is not a worthwhile use of time.

However, I have found something similar useful

while in the ongoing stages of grieving.

When my boyfriend of ten years died suddenly, I was overwhelmed with

grief the first week or so—understandably. But even as the weeks and months went

on, I found myself thinking of little else and every moment was full of pain. I decided to schedule 15 minutes a day

to sit consciously with the pain and allow myself to feel it deeply. Then for the rest of the day, I would

devote myself to other activities and when my mind went back to grieving

thoughts, I told myself to return to those thoughts at the next scheduled time. Very soon I was getting on with my life

in a healthy way.

Helena

From: ACT_for_the_Public

[mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On

Behalf Of BILL CAMERON

Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010

7:05 PM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: RE:

Rumination and Dissociation

Tom -

Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would

have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with

our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing

(thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I

would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards

a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase

that time each day.

Bill

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> From: thc2000ca@...

> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000

> Subject: Rumination and Dissociation

>

> hi all

>

> i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is

now february!

>

> I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I

tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i

think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about

what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i

think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see

i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time

on this.

>

> One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted

in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i

spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are,

but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people

involved, etc etc.

>

> Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking

about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.

>

> The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February issue),

and on page 66, it said " Contain Your Rumination.... Schedule limited

blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're

compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move

on. "

>

> Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?

>

> Tom

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

>

> If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

> unsubscribe by sending an email to

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[Guest guest]

> You could make this work, from an ACT perspective, if you

> gave it a twist: turn the 'wallow time' into a 'leaves on a

> stream' exercise. In other words, sit down, and for 15

> minutes bring up all the thoughts you normally tend to

> wallow in, and put them all onto leaves and watch them float

> on by.

Neat idea. I would like to suggest what I hope is a clarification

rather than a quibble.

If we retain the original exercise's instruction of " Work with

these thoughts for 15 minutes twice a day, " we might also retain,

without realizing it, the expectation that this sort of work is in

the service of " compartmentalizing, " and that it will reduce the

frequency of ruminative thoughts at other times during the day.

So " Leaves on a stream " is good - if we also leave out this notion

of " compartmentalizing. " We can do any exercise 15 minutes a day,

we just don't want to bring along any baggage of " and then your

rumination will stop showing up and bothering you. "

For an exercise that really points up how different ACT is from the

" 15 minutes a day keeps your worried thoughts away " expectation,

there is the " Key Worries " exercise as described on p. 87 of " The

Worry Trap, " by Chad LeJeune:

As Chad describes it, you take your housekeys, and to each you

assign a particular " key " worry thought. Then, he says, " As you go

through your day, every time you use one of these keys, allow

yourself to think the thought that goes with that key . . . Notice

that you are bigger than all of these thoughts and feelings, " etc.

Note the " as you go through your day. " No compartmentalizing there.

--Randy

[Guest guest]

> I decided to schedule 15 minutes a day to sit consciously

> with the pain and allow myself to feel it deeply. Then for

> the rest of the day, I would devote myself to other

> activities and when my mind went back to grieving thoughts,

> I told myself to return to those thoughts at the next

> scheduled time.

I am hazy about what is " officially " ACT or not, but to me what you

say sounds really neat and very different from the " wallowing "

strategy we have been talking about.

The " wallowing " strategy from Psychology Today, as I understand it,

is in the service of controlling rumination and " making it go

away. "

Whereas your strategy seems to have been more like " My thoughts and

feelings of grief are valid and important for me to feel, and I

will return to them and feel them deeply at X hour of each day, so

that I can also get through other daily activities that are

important to me. "

The two strategies are superficially similar, except that your

approach seems to move subtly in the direction of acceptance.

A small shift in context seems to make a big difference.

I am reminded too that making a special time for mourning is an

ancient tradition and still a good one.

--R.

[Guest guest]

Great idea. I was about to suggest using 15 minutes a day to sing my reoccuring

fused thoughs into giggles.

Barbara S.

>

> You could make this work, from an ACT perspective, if you gave it a twist:

> turn the 'wallow time' into a 'leaves on a stream' exercise. In other words,

> sit down, and for 15 minutes bring up all the thoughts you normally tend to

> wallow in, and put them all onto leaves and watch them float on by.

>

> All the best,

>

> Cheers,

>

> Russ

>

>

>

> www.actmadesimple.com

>

> www.act-with-love.com

>

> www.thehappinesstrap.com

>

> www.actmindfully.com.au

>

>

>

> From: ACT_for_the_Public

> [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of BILL CAMERON

> Sent: Tuesday, 2 February 2010 8:05 AM

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> Subject: RE: Rumination and Dissociation

>

>

>

>

>

> Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent.

> ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move

> ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that

> wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more

> wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific

> action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent

> wallowing. Increase that time each day.

>

> Bill

>

> > To: ACT_for_the_Public

> > From: thc2000ca@...

> > Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000

> > Subject: Rumination and Dissociation

> >

> > hi all

> >

> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is

> now february!

> >

> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby I

> tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about,

> i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think

> about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda

> sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as

> you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend

> alot of time on this.

> >

> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted

> in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did

> i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they

> are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the

> people involved, etc etc.

> >

> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking

> about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.

> >

> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February issue),

> and on page 66, it said " Contain Your Rumination.... Schedule limited blocks

> of time to wallow - say 15 minutes tw ice per day. You're compartmentalizing

> your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on. "

> >

> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?

> >

> > Tom

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

> >

> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

> > unsubscribe by sending an email to

> > ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bill. Good stuff.

To: ACT_for_the_Public <act_for_the_public >Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 6:00:28 PMSubject: RE: Rumination and Dissociation

You seem to be using the word value differently than ACT uses it. A value is a direction in which you want to take your life and is often stated as a verb, i.e. I value being a loving father; I value being a helpful friend. I value being a good and thoughtful ruminator is probably not a direction in which you want to take your life so I wouldn't spend much time on "recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination." Sounds like more rumination to me.What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking about how to defend myself from this problem".I think that what you are describing is your observing self at work - noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing your thoughts. I think it's okay to do this but you must quickly move on

defusing from those ruminative thoughts by using some of the exercises - milk, milk, milk, milk; silly voices; thanking your mind; ........ The purpose of all of these techniques is to stop taking your thoughts seriously. Try boiling your un-useful thought down to one word and then add add the prefix "sch_to it" - rumination schrumination, or laptop schmaptop, or panic schmanic. Something funny to break the cycle of importance you are placing on the thought. I stumbled into this and it works for me.Bill

To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.comFrom: okisutchyahoo (DOT) comDate: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:35:37 -0800Subject: Re: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation

Hi All,

I was chatting today with a friend about the experience of ruminating, worrying, getting caught up in thoughts.

One thing to note on rumination and dissociation is that they are cues for defusion. See page 86 of GOOYMAITL. See the second half of the page under "When To Use Defusion". They write "Because fusion is everywhere, all the time, applied to everything, and unstoppable, we don't notice it. Here are some cues that will show you when you are fused with your thoughts." What follows is a list of cues/signs of fusion. I think the ACT idea here is that you want to practice noticing and recognizing these cues and make them cues to apply ACT skills--starting with defusion.. What I do first is start describing the rumination process, "I am arguing with myself about how to treat so and so" and "I am thinking about how to defend myself from this problem".

Right now I am working on connecting these experiences with my values i.e. recognizng the values at stake in 1) the process of rumination itself as a process and 2) the content of the rumination. In other words, I'm trying to gauge the value involved in ruminating and the values involved in the content of the rumination.

Anyone think this is ACT-inconsistent or have suggestions?

Okistuch

From: BILL CAMERON <wcameromsn (DOT) com>To: ACT_for_the_ Public <act_for_the_ public@yahoogrou ps.com>Sent: Mon, February 1, 2010 4:04:48 PMSubject: RE: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT consistent. ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and move ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is that wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes more wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for specific action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent wallowing. Increase that time each day. Bill> To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com> From: thc2000cayahoo (DOT) com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000> Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation> > hi all> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it is now february!> > I've been doing some readings and have come

up w Rumination - whereby I tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all about, i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i think about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get kinda sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc, as you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly spend alot of time on this.> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are distracted in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated (did i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as they are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w the people involved, etc etc.> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time thinking about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.> > The other day, I picked up

the Psychology Today magazine (February issue), and on page 66, it said "Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule limited blocks of time to wallow - say 15 minutes twice per day. You're compartmentalizing your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on."> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?> > Tom> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych ology.org> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri beyahoogroups (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

I have Mindfullness for Two and it is a very intimate book, like a chat

around a camp fire. is quite open about his own suffering (without

mentioning details) and I was very moved by the section on human

suffering, so much so I almost wrote a post on it. Like say's,

this is a book for professionals so look out for his new book written

for the rest of us. It is unusual for a professional book because it is

so laid back and intimate. But it is still pretty heavy stuff and I'm

still reading it.

I'm reading a number of books at the moment, including the The CBT

Practioners Guide to ACT. If ever there was a book written that was an

antidepressant between the covers this is it. It's very pretty, despite

its plain cover, and has these wacky cartoons running all the way

through it. I adore it and when I read it I feel happy.

I'm also just finished reading Doctoring The Mind, Why Psychiatric Drugs

Fail, by Bentall. This is a book written mainly about psychotics

-although he talks quite a lot about antidepressants as well - Bentall

just blows all the genetic theories right out of the water. Now there

might be a gene involved with manic depression and schizophrenia, say's

Bentall, which may affect about 10% of sufferers by about 2% or 3%. i.e,

virtually nothing. But he predicts that this gene will most likely count

for nothing like all the other so called genes found over the years for

all the other various mental illnesses which also came nothing The

biggest laugh was the short serotonin gene, the later studies showed

that this gene was less likely to produce a depression, the opposite of

previous studies. In fact, short or long, it's makes no difference

because the amount of serotonin has nothing to do with depression.

Depression is not caused by a chemical imbalance.

The last book I am reading is The Genie in your Genes, by Dawson Church.

This is one of those books I would normally hate - new age, EFT, energy

tapping, and that crazy stuff. Energy Tapping is based on meridian

lines which comes from accupunture, but Irvin Kirsch, author of The

Antidepressant Myth, has demonstrated that accupunture is a purely a

placebo effect. It doesn't matter were you put the needles, you can miss

all the meridian lines and the same amount of people get well. Or you

can use pretend needles, that fool everyone and don't penetrate the skin

at all and it makes no difference to the outcome. But 50% of the book is

about gene expression and is hard science. Now even if there were a few

genes that might not be helping you (which is very unlikely) genetic

determinisn is over because your attitude has a big effect on how your

genes behave. You can switch genes on or off, or or just simply

re-arrange them just by altering your attitude or your feelings (well, I

should say accepting and using ACT - or CBT) . So bring on ACT because

happiness and freedom from suffering (in the Buddhist sense) can be

ours.

Kavy

> >>>

> >>> You could make this work, from an ACT perspective, if you gave it

a twist:

> >>> turn the 'wallow time' into a 'leaves on a stream' exercise. In

other words,

> >>> sit down, and for 15 minutes bring up all the thoughts you

normally tend to

> >>> wallow in, and put them all onto leaves and watch them float on

by.

> >>>

> >>> All the best,

> >>>

> >>> Cheers,

> >>>

> >>> Russ

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> www.actmadesimple. com

> >>>

> >>> www.act-with-love.com

> >>>

> >>> www.thehappinesstra p.com

> >>>

> >>> www.actmindfully. com.au

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> From: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com

> >>> [mailto:ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of BILL

CAMERON

> >>> Sent: Tuesday, 2 February 2010 8:05 AM

> >>> To: ACT_for_the_ Public

> >>> Subject: RE: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT

consistent.

> >>> ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about

and move

> >>> ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience

is that

> >>> wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just

promotes more

> >>> wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days

for specific

> >>> action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have

spent

> >>> wallowing. Increase that time each day.

> >>>

> >>> Bill

> >>>

> >>> > To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com

> >>> > From: thc2000ca@ .

> >>> > Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000

> >>> > Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation

> >>> >

> >>> > hi all

> >>> >

> >>> > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and

behold, it is

> >>> now february!

> >>> >

> >>> > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination -

whereby I

> >>> tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is

all about,

> >>> i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?,

i think

> >>> about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i

get kinda

> >>> sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc

etc, as

> >>> you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i

seemingly spend

> >>> alot of time on this.

> >>> >

> >>> > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are

distracted

> >>> in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become

dissociated (did

> >>> i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things

as they

> >>> are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being

present w the

> >>> people involved, etc etc.

> >>> >

> >>> > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time

thinking

> >>> about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.

> >>> >

> >>> > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine

(February issue),

> >>> and on page 66, it said " Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule

limited blocks

> >>> of time to wallow - say 15 minutes tw ice per day. You're

compartmentalizing

> >>> your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on. "

> >>> >

> >>> > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?

> >>> >

> >>> > Tom

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >>> >

> >>> > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych

ology.org

> >>> >

> >>> > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may

> >>> > unsubscribe by sending an email to

> >>> > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri be@! Groups Links

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>>

> >>

> >>

> >

> > G.

> >205 Peabody Building

> >Psychology Department

> >University of Mississippi

> >Oxford, MS 38677

> >

> >

> >fax: Â

> >(do not use during summer)

> >ph: Â

> >

> >

> >academic homepage:

> >www.olemiss. edu/working/ kwilson/kwilson. htm

> >also check out

> >www.onelifellc. com

> >www.mindfulnessfort wo.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And to think I always snubbed my nose at tenure and all it entails..

So glad you've decided to stick around and so glad for all these oddities..can't

wait to get my hands all around this book. Talk about unlikely things

happening..yep..this book and you are both up there on the list.

with big heart,

Terry

> >>> >

> >>> > You could make this work, from an ACT perspective, if you gave it a

twist:

> >>> > turn the 'wallow time' into a 'leaves on a stream' exercise. In other

words,

> >>> > sit down, and for 15 minutes bring up all the thoughts you normally tend

to

> >>> > wallow in, and put them all onto leaves and watch them float on by.

> >>> >

> >>> > All the best,

> >>> >

> >>> > Cheers,

> >>> >

> >>> > Russ

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> > www.actmadesimple. com

> >>> >

> >>> > www.act-with-love.com

> >>> >

> >>> > www.thehappinesstra p.com

> >>> >

> >>> > www.actmindfully. com.au

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> > From: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com

> >>> > [mailto:ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of BILL CAMERON

> >>> > Sent: Tuesday, 2 February 2010 8:05 AM

> >>> > To: ACT_for_the_ Public

> >>> > Subject: RE: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> >

> >>> > Tom - Scheduling time to wallow does not sound especially ACT

consistent.

> >>> > ACT would have us let go of whatever it is we are ruminating about and

move

> >>> > ahead with our hands and feet towards a valued life. My experience is

that

> >>> > wallowing (thinking about) something that is not useful just promotes

more

> >>> > wallowing. I would go about it this way. Make time in your days for

specific

> >>> > action towards a valued goal that replaces the time you would have spent

> >>> > wallowing. Increase that time each day.

> >>> >

> >>> > Bill

> >>> >

> >>> > > To: ACT_for_the_ Public@yahoogrou ps.com

> >>> > > From: thc2000ca@ .

> >>> > > Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:35:54 +0000

> >>> > > Subject: [ACT_for_the_ Public] Rumination and Dissociation

> >>> > >

> >>> > > hi all

> >>> > >

> >>> > > i've been kinda in limbo the past month, and then low and behold, it

is

> >>> > now february!

> >>> > >

> >>> > > I've been doing some readings and have come up w Rumination - whereby

I

> >>> > tend to think so much about stuff, i think about what my life is all

about,

> >>> > i think about my values... am i living in accordance w my values?, i

think

> >>> > about what my ideal life should be and often when i see the gap i get

kinda

> >>> > sad, i think about work and whether or not this is my calling, etc etc,

as

> >>> > you can see i have a habit of rumuniating, in my mind, and i seemingly

spend

> >>> > alot of time on this.

> >>> > >

> >>> > > One of the results of ruminating is dissociation. when you are

distracted

> >>> > in your mind, you tend not to be present, and so you become dissociated

(did

> >>> > i spell that right?), like you're numbed, just going about things as

they

> >>> > are, but not really being there to enjoy the event, not being present w

the

> >>> > people involved, etc etc.

> >>> > >

> >>> > > Rumination and then dissociation, I seem to spend alot of time

thinking

> >>> > about this stuff, to the detriment of living out life itself.

> >>> > >

> >>> > > The other day, I picked up the Psychology Today magazine (February

issue),

> >>> > and on page 66, it said " Contain Your Rumination.. .. Schedule limited

blocks

> >>> > of time to wallow - say 15 minutes tw ice per day. You're

compartmentalizing

> >>> > your grief - and you'll soon get bored of it and move on. "

> >>> > >

> >>> > > Hmmm, maybe i will give this a try?

> >>> > >

> >>> > > Tom

> >>> > >

> >>> > >

> >>> > >

> >>> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >>> > >

> >>> > > For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsych

ology.org

> >>> > >

> >>> > > If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_ Public, you may

> >>> > > unsubscribe by sending an email to

> >>> > > ACT_for_the_ Public-unsubscri be@! Groups Links

> >>> > >

> >>> > >

> >>> > >

> >>> >

> >>>

> >>>

> >>

> >> G.

> >> 205 Peabody Building

> >> Psychology Department

> >> University of Mississippi

> >> Oxford, MS 38677

> >>

> >> fax:

> >> (do not use during summer)

> >> ph:

> >>

> >> academic homepage:

> >> www.olemiss. edu/working/ kwilson/kwilson. htm

> >> also check out

> >> www.onelifellc. com

> >> www.mindfulnessfort wo.com

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>