Re: lastest E labs, back to OOE, may try peanut or cocon...

[Guest guest]

Estrogel.

I did like it at all........went in to fast then was gone. And my husband joke that I could ignite

if some one thew a match, with all that ethanol, LOL.

Maybe one of WIP's gels would work for you????? Maybe you could get an RX for a sample to see??? I do know the pharmacies vary in quality of E, and the way they process it,

Belmar Pharmacy in Dr. Vliets books, and ??Sparkes?? look in the back.....you may need to go shopping . .......there is a weekly shot for estradiol too, ( I don't like shots, but my Dr.has a lady that does a patch and gets a weekly shot...I wish I was more help. The reason the estrogel gets in and so fast is all that ethanol, I was told you can use a lotion over the top of your E is you want it to go in faster, one that has ingredients you're NOT allergic to )

GOOD luck. XOXOX )

[Guest guest]

Well lucky you ! I haven't had luck with OO or Estrogel. Maybe

it's the pharmacy.

>

>

> here is a gel and no alcohol gel from WIP.....haven't tried

it, BUT you

> could. I have ALWAYS gotten really good #'s with OOE, so I'm

retesting with

> the same dose, let ya know, think the key is applying it

often ))

> ...WIP reply follows:

> Thank you for your email.

> The ingredients in our cream base are purified water, isopropyl

myristate,

> TEA-stearate, safflower oil, cetyl and stearyl alcohols,

phenoxyethanol, TEA

> carbomer, methylparaben, and propylparaben. The ingredients in

our

> non-alcohol gel base are distilled water, glycerin, carbopol

resin, and a neutralizer.

> There is no significant difference between these 2 bases in terms

of entry

> time and duration of action. Of course, it is difficult to

predict how each

> individual will absorb topical products so it is possible that

certain

> patients may find noticeable differences in the effects of these

bases. Most

> patients, however, find the bases to be equally effective.

> Please let us know if we may assist further.

> Sincerely,

> Janice Unertl, RPh

> Women’s International Pharmacy

>

>

[Guest guest]

- do you mean use a lotion over the top of E to KEEP it in, not go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just doesn't STAY in. I was getting hot flashes like crazy on that too. Maybe I just needed to apply more

for the estrogel, yes, more, like 2 1/2 to 3 sticks a day>for me , BUT made me to dizzy, and didn't like all that ethanol, L

[Guest guest]

>

> Estrogel.

>

>

> I did like it at all........went in to fast then was gone. And my

husband

> joke that I could ignite

> if some one thew a match, with all that ethanol, LOL.

>

is all that ethanol, I was told you can use a lotion over the top of

your E

> is you want it to go in faster, one that has ingredients you're NOT

allergic

> to )

> GOOD luck. XOXOX )

>

[Guest guest]

I was told you can use a lotion over the top of your E

> is you want it to go in faster, one that has ingredients you're NOT

allergic

> to )

> GOOD luck. XOXOX )

---------------------------------------------

- do you mean use a lotion over the top of E to KEEP it in, not

go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just doesn't STAY in. I was

getting hot flashes like crazy on that too. Maybe I just needed to

apply more.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. Possibly MORE on the EstroGel would seem to be

the first hunch one would have. How much were you

using??

And no, you will not get drunk, or catch on fire, with

the gel base.

Have you had your blood tested in addition to your

" hot flashes " symptoms?? A blood test will tell you

where you are in terms of therapeutic levels.

Until you have your serum level of estradiol checked,

you are just guessing and guessing and guessing.

Recently a woman posted that what her doctor has her

do with the EstraGel is:

1. Apply 3 x day, morning, noon, and evening

2. Apply on stomach in an area no larger than hand.

Supposedly this " holds " the E in for more of a

sustained release type delivery. Since estrogen is not

a lipophilic (fat) hormone, I have been wondering how

this dynamic might work. So, yesterday, I asked my

regular pharmacist to call the Solvay company DIRECTLY

regarding this " tummy " method, which is not in their

instruction insert, but is rather the wrist and inner

arm thing (which I am sure is what they did in their

premarketing clinical trials.)

I will report to the group as soon as she calls me

with what she was told by the Solvay people.

xoxoCarolyn

--- wrote:

> I was told you can use a lotion over the top of

> your E

> > is you want it to go in faster, one that has

> ingredients you're NOT

> allergic

> > to )

> > GOOD luck. XOXOX )

>

> ---------------------------------------------

>

> - do you mean use a lotion over the top of E

> to KEEP it in, not

> go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just

> doesn't STAY in. I was

> getting hot flashes like crazy on that too. Maybe I

> just needed to

> apply more.

>

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Whether it was thedose, or the speed, I'll never know for sure.Carolyn

OH I KNOW, LOLLOLLOL...........I can tolerate alot of E and can use the high dose patch, but the amount of E to gel is off in that estogel..........lots of gel, very LITTLE E ( .

I know the dosing with that gel won't do me, LOLLOL. BUT it may work as a catalist for those that have trouble with the OOE.......they could maybe use a dot or two of the estrogel and their OOE..........just a thought, LOL.

[Guest guest]

So then I decided to go back to Olive Oil E to see if I could stop getting the hot flashes that I had back. Nothing doing. I was using 2 mg drops of OO - only the 2 mg per day. I'm beginning to think I'll do well at 4 mg a day at this point.

, that makes good sense, more OOE AND use it MORE OFTEN ) . You may be a higher E user, also, if your T3 is low you won't see your E as well......)

[Guest guest]

I'm using cream now and so I'll just use more if it isn't absorbed that well!

there ya go...........) L

[Guest guest]

manufacturers suggested" amount = 3.0 mg, should getlevels at and above 90 pg/mL.

Getting ready to test myself on Womens International E cream. I would have had a perfect life if I could have used two Vivelle patches, they were steady and reliable. Unfortunately the insurance and the doctor both bawlked at the idea of double patches.

I think the about estimate is close to what a serum level will be on a transdermal. My experience so far has been about 30 mg serum E to each 1mg dose. Odd all the gurus say transdermal is more powerful, I have not found that.

As an aside note any level over 114 serum is breast stimulating.

Sammie

[Guest guest]

Getting ready to test myself on Womens International E cream.

Sammie, which E cream of theirs are you using?? )

[Guest guest]

In the " For What it's Worth " department...

DIZINESS is one of the listed side effects of

estrogen, but not from the small amount of ethenol in

the gel (unless, of course, you are drinking it!

LOL!!)

And it just may be that the speed of the E going in

may also be a causative factor. When I was on the

patches, on one of the higher doses, on a morning that

I had just put a new patch on, I got so dizzy with

vertigo that I had to be driven home from work. I took

the patch off immediately, but it took about 6 hours

to come down off of the diziness. Whether it was the

dose, or the speed, I'll never know for sure.

Carolyn

--- Nuimom@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/18/2005 9:17:49 AM Pacific

> Standard Time,

> merryr@... writes:

>

>

> - do you mean use a lotion over the top of E

> to KEEP it in, not

> go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just

> doesn't STAY in. I was

> getting hot flashes like crazy on that too. Maybe I

> just needed to

> apply more

> for the estrogel, yes, more, like 2 1/2 to 3 sticks

> a day>for me , BUT made

> me to dizzy, and didn't like all that ethanol, L

>

__________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Carolyn - my Estrogel directions says to apply to the upper inner

thigh area and inner arms. What's with this tummy thing? First of

all, I was tested mid-August and it after I used my Estrogel one

hour before. I was using 1.5 mg a day of Estrogel. My Estradiol

level came back at 54 and I was BARELY using any progesterone.

So then I decided to go back to Olive Oil E to see if I could stop

getting the hot flashes that I had back. Nothing doing. I was

using 2 mg drops of OO - only the 2 mg per day. I'm beginning to

think I'll do well at 4 mg a day at this point. The only time I

didn't get hot flashes was post-Wiley. Pre-Wiley I had flashes all

the way up to applying 5 mg a day of E cream.

My doctor doesn't want to test me again until I'm on ONE method of

application for at least a month.

__________________________________________________________

>

> > I was told you can use a lotion over the top of

> > your E

> > > is you want it to go in faster, one that has

> > ingredients you're NOT

> > allergic

> > > to )

> > > GOOD luck. XOXOX )

> >

> > ---------------------------------------------

> >

> > - do you mean use a lotion over the top of E

> > to KEEP it in, not

> > go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just

> > doesn't STAY in. I was

> > getting hot flashes like crazy on that too. Maybe I

> > just needed to

> > apply more.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________

> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

> http://mail.yahoo.com

>

[Guest guest]

Hmm dizzy? I never had that problem. It made me NUTSY. Wound up!

>

> In a message dated 10/18/2005 9:17:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> merryr@u... writes:

>

>

> - do you mean use a lotion over the top of E to KEEP it in,

not

> go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just doesn't STAY in.

I was

> getting hot flashes like crazy on that too. Maybe I just needed

to

> apply more

> for the estrogel, yes, more, like 2 1/2 to 3 sticks a day>for me ,

BUT made

> me to dizzy, and didn't like all that ethanol, L

>

[Guest guest]

: Too much trouble!! I want things EASY

>

> I know the dosing with that gel won't do me, LOLLOL. BUT it may work

as a

> catalist for those that have trouble with the OOE.......they could

maybe use a

> dot or two of the estrogel and their OOE..........just a thought,

LOL.

>

[Guest guest]

My doctor didn't tell me what my T3 level was - I don't think he

took that test. My TSH he said was fine so I don't think it's

thyroid. I'm using cream now and so I'll just use more if it isn't

absorbed that well!

>

>

> In a message dated 10/18/2005 12:59:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> merryr@u... writes:

>

> So then I decided to go back to Olive Oil E to see if I could

stop

> getting the hot flashes that I had back. Nothing doing. I was

> using 2 mg drops of OO - only the 2 mg per day. I'm beginning to

> think I'll do well at 4 mg a day at this point.

>

>

> , that makes good sense, more OOE AND use it MORE

OFTEN ) . You may

> be a higher E user, also, if your T3 is low you won't see your E

as

> well......)

>

[Guest guest]

Makes sense, ! Neither did I find the OO E to

work, nor the E cream. And I am also thinking, from

others I have heard as well, that the 1.5mg day of

EstroGel was premarket tested to produce " safe " serum

numbers of around 50 pg/mL, plus or minus. One of the

doctors I had gone to this spring insisted he would

not allow me to go over 50 pg/mL. Was no use arguing

with him, so I " fired " him and found another.

But I am thinking that anyone who does " only " 1.5mg of

the gel/day is then going to get only about 50 pg/mL,

and will need to take a bit more gel, say, to add

another squirt of the .75mg amount for a total of

2.25mg day, or maybe even 4 squirts a day, for a total

of 3.0mg day. That should do it, I would think.

As for the " tummy " thing...I dunno. I know one of our

members does that, and another member who posted about

her doctor having her do 3 squirts/day ALSO told her

to do the " tummy " thing. Like I said, I am waiting to

hear from my pharmacist who is calling the Solvay

company direct...I'll let you guys know as soon as she

calls me back!

--- wrote:

> Carolyn - my Estrogel directions says to apply to

> the upper inner

> thigh area and inner arms. What's with this tummy

> thing? First of

> all, I was tested mid-August and it after I used my

> Estrogel one

> hour before. I was using 1.5 mg a day of Estrogel.

> My Estradiol

> level came back at 54 and I was BARELY using any

> progesterone.

>

> So then I decided to go back to Olive Oil E to see

> if I could stop

> getting the hot flashes that I had back. Nothing

> doing. I was

> using 2 mg drops of OO - only the 2 mg per day. I'm

> beginning to

> think I'll do well at 4 mg a day at this point.

> The only time I

> didn't get hot flashes was post-Wiley. Pre-Wiley I

> had flashes all

> the way up to applying 5 mg a day of E cream.

>

> My doctor doesn't want to test me again until I'm on

> ONE method of

> application for at least a month.

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________________

>

>

> >

> > > I was told you can use a lotion over the top of

>

> > > your E

> > > > is you want it to go in faster, one that has

> > > ingredients you're NOT

> > > allergic

> > > > to )

> > > > GOOD luck. XOXOX )

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------------------

> > >

> > > - do you mean use a lotion over the top of

> E

> > > to KEEP it in, not

> > > go in faster! It goes in fast enough ! It just

> > > doesn't STAY in. I was

> > > getting hot flashes like crazy on that too.

> Maybe I

> > > just needed to

> > > apply more.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________

> > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

> > http://mail.yahoo.com

> >

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Yeah...same with the other new FDA approved product

called Estrasorb. I think that both the EstroGel and

the Estrasorb, the only two 17-beta estradiol

transdermal products FDA approved, other than the

time-tested patch, has very low E:base ratio, most

likely because the companies did not want to risk

lawsuits and to get past the FDA. HOWEVER...one can

always take more of the gel....twice the

" manufacturers suggested " amount = 3.0 mg, should get

levels at and above 90 pg/mL.

Actually, the patch would seem, at first glance, to

have a very low ratio of estradiol to patch base, as

well. We reformed WPers are so used to having our

cream compounded in massive amounts, that the patch

and gel numbers look quite WIMPY to us!!! However, it

is the delivery system that counts - does it get it in

with the effectiveness of a nuclear blast??? The patch

does pack a " PoW " !!!

We can still titrate the FDA products to symptoms and

serum - especially if the gel can be gotten from

overseas at breathtakingly low prices!!!

Or...do the Mediterranean Diet and slippery-slather on

the OO. Which, from what I have heard, goes south

pretty fast.

Carolyn

--- Nuimom@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 10/18/2005 12:06:32 PM Pacific

> Standard Time,

> satoristar3@... writes:

>

> Whether it was the

> dose, or the speed, I'll never know for sure.

> Carolyn

>

>

>

> OH I KNOW, LOLLOLLOL...........I can tolerate alot

> of E and can use the high

> dose patch, but the amount of E to gel is off in

> that estogel..........lots

> of gel, very LITTLE E ( .

> I know the dosing with that gel won't do me, LOLLOL.

> BUT it may work as a

> catalist for those that have trouble with the

> OOE.......they could maybe use a

> dot or two of the estrogel and their

> OOE..........just a thought, LOL.

>

__________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Sammie....

Thanks for the +114 pg/mL = breast tenderness FYI.

Also liked the math you've worked out of

1 mg E = 30 pg/mL serum E level.

Sounds pretty solid. That would mean that 4 unit doses

of EstroGel at .75mg per dose = 3 mg total day of E

would be expected to achieve about 90 pg/mL serum

level.

Thanks! I will report in to this RL lab at end of

month! The patch still sounds as if it is one of the

best delivery systems. And it must be about 20 years

on the market now! Carolyn

--- Sami4ESP@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/18/2005 2:38:58 PM Mountain

> Standard Time,

> satoristar3@... writes:

> manufacturers suggested " amount = 3.0 mg, should get

> levels at and above 90 pg/mL.

> Getting ready to test myself on Womens International

> E cream. I would have

> had a perfect life if I could have used two Vivelle

> patches, they were steady

> and reliable. Unfortunately the insurance and the

> doctor both bawlked at the

> idea of double patches.

> I think the about estimate is close to what a

> serum level will be on a

> transdermal. My experience so far has been about 30

> mg serum E to each 1mg dose.

> Odd all the gurus say transdermal is more powerful,

> I have not found that.

> As an aside note any level over 114 serum is

> breast stimulating.

> Sammie

>

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[Guest guest]

Sammie, which E cream of theirs are you using?? )

:

I am using 2mg E combined with 5mg of Estriol in MG/GM cream (whatever that is). With one full dose in AM and one in PM I only had a 55 blood level. I figure I probably have 20 mg just from my own body so I guess 1mg roughly equates to about 30 mg serum level.

I really dont understand how experts can say that creams should be given at half dose of orals for the same blood level. I found creams, patches and any type of transdermal gives a much lower blood level.

Sammie

[Guest guest]

> I am using 2mg E combined with 5mg of Estriol in> MG/GM cream (whatever that

SO, Sammie, you got their reg. safflower cream........2mgs. E2 per scoop, right?( the E3 is just ther, we won't worry about it, LOLLOL)

I would think that 2mgs. BID would not be enough either, I just had another lab done on the OOE with 2mgs. BUT it was after 6+ hours, they were running behind, LOLLOL

anyway we'll see......I was due for my OOE by then, and had only just got back on it the day before. My blood levels will be interesting, usually takes 3-5 days for me to get up my blood levels, BUT who knows. Today is day 4 back on OOE, the juicy mama is back ))))) hang in there girl, we don't all have to do estogel, LOLLOL . )

[Guest guest]

I found creams, patches and any type of transdermal gives a much lower blood level.

Sammie

Sammie, I tested in the 400's on OOE, REMEMBER ))) that was on 4mgs. 3 1/2 hours after

application..........I am going to try and have my Dr. OK a trial of the WIP non-alcohol gel too, that maybe an option for you? I do love my OOE, BUT would be nice to have options.......I can't help it, I do find this fascinating, how the same hormone can be transported and act so different, from person to person. I may get fired from yet another Dr.BUT I'm learning SO MUCH, should just stay with my OOE, but the call of another method that may be better is

calling me to try it and see, hee hee, LOLLOLLOL...........yup, my OOE is kicked in, I know I have my OOE for back up, LOLLOL.......XOXOXO

[Guest guest]

I applied 3mg of E cream this morning and that seems to have done the trick. I haven't had a flash yet all day.

, you may need to do your E, 3 or even 4 times a day to stay even )

[Guest guest]

Sammie, if my memory serves me correctly, it has been

posted many times per the ineffectiveness of cream to

deliver reliable serum levels of E.

Also, from what is clinically shown, the addition of

estriol to BHRT - and then looking for good serum

levels of 17-beta estradiol - is comparable to adding

60% water to 40% gasoline in the auto tank, and then

hoping to get 100% levels of pure gasoline.

Love, Carolyn

--- Sami4ESP@... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/18/2005 3:19:32 PM Mountain

> Standard Time,

> Nuimom@... writes:

> Sammie, which E cream of theirs are you using??

> )

> :

> I am using 2mg E combined with 5mg of Estriol in

> MG/GM cream (whatever that

> is). With one full dose in AM and one in PM I only

> had a 55 blood level. I

> figure I probably have 20 mg just from my own body

> so I guess 1mg roughly

> equates to about 30 mg serum level.

> I really dont understand how experts can say that

> creams should be given

> at half dose of orals for the same blood level. I

> found creams, patches and

> any type of transdermal gives a much lower blood

> level.

> Sammie

>

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[Guest guest]

I know -- I'll apply another 1 mg tonight at bedtime. However, right now I'm getting a little flash.

MARY, if you're flashing your E is REALLY low, I didn't even get flashes with the screwy 35............please take care ) if you felt good this AM with 3mgs.......that maybe a 3xa day deal for you to consider.....really...why are women afraid of E if the are whipping through it?

It is down the toilet by now, LOLLOL...........my new Dr. told me to stay on top of it, like you would pain meds.......not good for us to be up and down, you're reliving per-menopause, (

If you were here, she'd tell ya ......go put on some E for *(*'s sake., LOLLOLLOL