Re: Back to Doc's

[Guest guest]

Carol,

Are you taking an Iodine supplement such as Iodoral? Check out www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine and see how iodine works to quiet the hormone receptors in the breasts, reduce swelling and pain. Lynn R. and Madeleen can speak to this. It can get rid of the pain in 24 hrs to a couple of weeks.

Somebody said their doctor changed the ratio in BiEst from 20% Estradiol/ 80% Estriol to a BiEst with 50% of each so there was more estradiol. I think Dr. M may have wanted to see how you did at the lowest possible dose.

If you tell him your complaints, he will probably oblige. --Lynne

To recap, Dr. M. prescribed 2.5 compounded bi-est with the progesterone daily. No cycling. The good things are my bloating belly has been reduced and I have been sleeping better. On the minus side I woke up this morning and noticed my breasts, mostly my nipples were quite sore

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Carol,

>

> Are you taking an Iodine supplement such as Iodoral? Check out

> _www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine_

(http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine) and see

> how iodine works to quiet the hormone receptors in the breasts,

reduce

> swelling and pain. Lynn R. and Madeleen can speak to this. It can

get rid of the

> pain in 24 hrs to a couple of weeks.

>

> Somebody said their doctor changed the ratio in BiEst from 20%

Estradiol/

> 80% Estriol to a BiEst with 50% of each so there was more

estradiol. I think

> Dr. M may have wanted to see how you did at the lowest possible

dose.

>

> If you tell him your complaints, he will probably oblige. --Lynne

>

>No Lynn I am not taking an iodine supplement. I can ask him about

changing the dosage but I'm also concerned about taking the hormones

orally as well. The general opinion unless I am wrong is that pills

are not the way to go and that transdermal is a better option

bypassing the liver. I don't know what I'll do if I don't get my sex

drive back soon. My boyfriend is most patient but he is starting to

take it all personally. And did I mention the itching?

My forearms are itching like crazy for about a month now, since I

went off the patch....I had high hopes for him as a new Doctor, now

I'm beginning to wonder. Why would he want me to take the capsules

if transdermal delivery is better?

[Guest guest]

This was something I was reading today. The drinking thing is

something that I had never read before

The majority of women take their HRT in pill form by mouth (oral

HRT). While very convenient, this results in changes in the

metabolism of estrogen that can be harmful. The reason for this is

called the " first pass effect. " When any substance is ingested, it

is absorbed by the intestines and then the whole dose hits the liver

immediately. This does not mimic what occurs naturally when the

ovaries are releasing estrogen into the circulation gradually all

day and then it gradually goes through the liver. When a large

amount of estrogen hits the liver at once, the processing of the

estrogen changes the metabolism of the liver and results in a number

of deleterious effects:

Increase in clotting factors, hence the warnings on the box that

women who smoke and older women may have an increase in blood clots

in the veins of the legs that can then cause a potentially fatal

pulmonary embolism.

Increase in the carrier molecule of the sex hormones called 'sex

hormone binding globulin,' which can result in too-tight binding of

testosterone and thus symptoms of a low testosterone level--

decreased libido, vaginal dryness, and thinner bones. Dr. io

Lobo, a nationally known researcher in estrogen replacement therapy

has said, " The fastest way to make a woman androgen deficient is to

put her on oral estrogen replacement therapy. "

The metabolism of fats and protein is changed which results in the

loss of lean muscle and increase in fat. These often counter

balance each other to cause no change in weight, but an undesirable

body composition.

When a woman drinks the equivalent of even just one glass of wine or

other alcohol a day and takes estrogen orally, her level of estrogen

can increase 300% above when she is not drinking. This can cause

levels of estrogen that are higher than are ever experienced in a

normal menstrual cycle. This may be one of the causes of an

increased risk of breast cancer with oral HRT. In contrast,

transdermal estrogen results in only a 30% increase in estrogen

level with alcohol consumption.

An increase in the incidence of gall stones which can lead to the

need for gall bladder removal.

An increase in triglycerides, a form of cholesterol that is a known

risk factor for heart disease.

None of these " side effects " occur with transdermal (through the

skin) ERT because the daily dose is released gradually into the

general circulation, just as when the ovaries are functioning

naturally.

[Guest guest]

Carol,

My doctor recently switched me from triest cream to biest cream. I

was having trouble with the triest wearing off too soon. Yesterday I

had to switch back to triest. With the biest I could not sleep well.

I was waking up frequently in the night and had trouble getting back

to sleep. Also, my skin cold flash sensations were much worse with

the biest. If I took enough biest to get rid of my symptoms I could

feel it in my breasts. I feel much better on triest than biest.

Yesterday I could not take it anymore and switched back to triest.

Last night I finally slept well again. I have an appointment with my

doctor on Monday and I hope to persuade him to give me estradiol in

olive oil for topical use. He mentioned at my previous appointment

switching me to 50/50 biest but my RX was for 20/80 biest. Maybe the

50/50 biest would work better for me but at this point I do not want

to take the chance anymore and just want plain estradiol. I never

felt good when I was pregnant, my breasts were always sore and I had

trouble sleeping. My thoughts are that the pregnancy estrogen estriol

in biest affects my breasts and sleep now just like it did when I was

pregnant. I know that there is estriol in triest too, but the ratio

or the estrone component makes it work much better for me. Hopefully

the plain estradiol will work even better.

Kathy

> >

> >

> > Carol,

> >

> > Are you taking an Iodine supplement such as Iodoral? Check out

> > _www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine_

> (http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine) and see

> > how iodine works to quiet the hormone receptors in the breasts,

> reduce

> > swelling and pain. Lynn R. and Madeleen can speak to this. It can

> get rid of the

> > pain in 24 hrs to a couple of weeks.

> >

> > Somebody said their doctor changed the ratio in BiEst from 20%

> Estradiol/

> > 80% Estriol to a BiEst with 50% of each so there was more

> estradiol. I think

> > Dr. M may have wanted to see how you did at the lowest possible

> dose.

> >

> > If you tell him your complaints, he will probably oblige. --Lynne

> >

> >No Lynn I am not taking an iodine supplement. I can ask him about

> changing the dosage but I'm also concerned about taking the hormones

> orally as well. The general opinion unless I am wrong is that pills

> are not the way to go and that transdermal is a better option

> bypassing the liver. I don't know what I'll do if I don't get my sex

> drive back soon. My boyfriend is most patient but he is starting to

> take it all personally. And did I mention the itching?

> My forearms are itching like crazy for about a month now, since I

> went off the patch....I had high hopes for him as a new Doctor, now

> I'm beginning to wonder. Why would he want me to take the capsules

> if transdermal delivery is better?

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Carol, I had forgotten you were on oral hormones and had radically downgraded your estradiol dosage when you stopped the patch.

Oh, dear, I didn't think most bioidentical-literate docs used oral anymore. Uzzi Reiss, MD writes about orals and how they screw up SHBG. I think Dr. M's rationale is that the oral is more standardized---- but it doesn't matter if it's standardized if it's not getting into your body.

No wonder you are feeling so crummy.

The patch seems to give a really predictable blood level of E from the experience of this group.

(When my E is low, my legs itch something fierce--just like your arms. What the heck is that?)

You don't know me, but please consider the iodine information. In my opinion, It is one of the most revolutionary discoveries to come along for total body hormone balance.

Lynne

Carol writes:

No Lynn I am not taking an iodine supplement. I can ask him about changing the dosage but I'm also concerned about taking the hormones orally as well. The general opinion unless I am wrong is that pills are not the way to go and that transdermal is a better option bypassing the liver. I don't know what I'll do if I don't get my sex drive back soon. My boyfriend is most patient but he is starting to take it all personally. And did I mention the itching?My forearms are itching like crazy for about a month now, since I went off the patch....I had high hopes for him as a new Doctor, now I'm beginning to wonder. Why would he want me to take the capsules if transdermal delivery is better?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Sorry, Carol, I had forgotten you were on oral hormones and had

radically

> downgraded your estradiol dosage when you stopped the patch.

>

> Oh, dear, I didn't think most bioidentical-literate docs used oral

anymore.

> Uzzi Reiss, MD writes about orals and how they screw up SHBG. I

think Dr. M's

> rationale is that the oral is more standardized---- but it doesn't

matter if

> it's standardized if it's not getting into your body.

> No wonder you are feeling so crummy.

>

> The patch seems to give a really predictable blood level of E from

the

> experience of this group.

>

> (When my E is low, my legs itch something fierce--just like your

arms. What

> the heck is that?)

>

> You don't know me, but please consider the iodine information. In

my

> opinion, It is one of the most revolutionary discoveries to come

along for total

> body hormone balance.

>

> Lynne

Thanks Lynne

At least I know I am not crazy. I'm dissapointed because I thought

being a former President of ACAM he would be a good choice for a

Doc. I was dissapointed on my first visit that he did not spend

more time with me. He promotes himself as an antiaging Dr. Hey

everyone's promoting themselves now days. I think maybe I need a

higher patch dose, and the P situation was always an issue. What I

don't like about the patch is the bloating it produces in me, to me

that would an indication that the dose was too high, yet blood

levels showed pretty low. But I also on the advice of Larrian G. was

not taking P, except for every 4 months, which got me into trouble

with lining and cycsts. Larrian also said I might be having

difficulty absorbing the patch and might want to supplement with a

nasal spray. I was quick to judge my former Dr. and was put off by

the fact that she was very expensive and always tried to sell me

something, Diets whatever, but so does he... but I must say she

seemed to be more in line with the current opinions on NRT. When he

saw my blood work he said Oh I know Kate, to make matters

worse...think I can save face and go back? She's very difficult to

get to..but beats yet another Dr.... Or should I just tell him I

want to go back on the patch???? What is SHBG? I have Dr. Reiss

book...I shall go back and look. No one else seems to mention the

itching...God it's terrible...

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Sorry, Carol, I had forgotten you were on oral hormones and had

> radically

> > downgraded your estradiol dosage when you stopped the patch.

> >

> Lynn I forgot to ask, I looked at the link but I'm not sure how the

iodine works, the page it about breast cancer?

[Guest guest]

Ahhh..... my Oh So Progressive integrative immunologist, Dr. Roby here

in Austin, wanted to upgrade my V Dot patches ( " get off that crap " )

and put me on biest - ORAL 2.5 mg. Good grief. I was bowled over,

speechless not for long..... not only is it less estrogen, it's oral

and he was taking my 100% E2 protocol that WORKS and replacing it with

mostly estriol. I stopped him dead in his tracks, got a script for

cream, 80% E2 and 20% estriol. Does nothing for me even as I add it TO

my egel at night... as with Kathy it only wakes me up for some reason,

can't go back to sleep. Can't figure this out as I use the same amount

of E2 as before. Estriol might have some sort of receptor priority.

I'm waking up at 4 am and sweating a bit.

The only reason I thought oral estrogen was of any use is when

androgens are high. The SHBG will bring these down.

ag.

> Posted by: " lynnelalala@... " lynnelalala@...   lynnecalling

>

>

> Sorry, Carol, I had forgotten you were on oral hormones and had

> radically

> downgraded your estradiol dosage when you stopped the patch.

>

> Oh, dear, I didn't think most bioidentical-literate docs used oral

> anymore.

> Uzzi Reiss, MD writes about orals and how they screw up SHBG. I think

> Dr. M's

[Guest guest]

> in Austin, wanted to upgrade my V Dot patches ( " get off that crap " )

> and put me on biest - ORAL 2.5 mg. Good grief. I was bowled over,

> speechless not for long..... not only is it less estrogen, it's oral

> and he was taking my 100% E2 protocol that WORKS and replacing it with

> mostly estriol.

---what in the world was his reason for that???? That makes no sense

especially since v patches seem to work so well for many many of us.

I don't know of any women on estriol that get a thing from it but

maybe some relief from v. dryness. I hear it over and over...

" I'm on hormone cream but it's not doing anything "

me-What is it?

" Something called biest or triest...doesn't seem to help at all "

I never thought of estroil actually causing a big problem until you

mentioned it right now. Wonder if it buggers up the estradiol receptors???

Lynn

[Guest guest]

> >>>>> Thanks for the reply Lynn... you and I have had a few words in

> the past about Roby I think. He's very cavalier. He has a set

> protocol and fits most into it. Not saying he is not creative when

> need be or able to be open and daring, but he is uneducated about

> hormones!! Bottom line. He considers v Dot to be synthetic crap. He

> doesn't listen very well. He has a major ego thing going on. I never

> get to find out much of his reasoning behind things as he has a

> repetitious verbal template of concepts. Over and over simplistic.

> His nurse, who is also a hair loss sufferer, mentions to me that she

> needs to talk with me. Doesn't want to discuss it with him. I think

> because he is so overwhelming in his attorney self (was before

> becoming an immunologist). I'm long overdue on here to give my P

> allergy, Roby update.... stay tuned... You have a good idea there

> Lynn with the estriol maybe boogering up the E2 receptors in some way.

> Last night I returned to my Egel and my sleep and p.m. waking

> improved a great deal. I'm considering myself OFF the estriol at this

> point. I find it remarkable that I never lessened my total E2 in the

> form of patches or the Egel and only added the 20/80 estriol/estradiol

> TO what I was using!!! And it dropped my E in terms of low E symptoms

> appearing..... hmmm. ag.

a

> Posted by: " Lynn " lyn122@...   lyn122

>

> Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:34 am (PST)

> > in Austin, wanted to upgrade my V Dot patches ( " get off that crap " )

> > and put me on biest - ORAL 2.5 mg. Good grief. I was bowled over,

> > speechless not for long..... not only is it less estrogen, it's oral

> > and he was taking my 100% E2 protocol that WORKS and replacing it

> with

> > mostly estriol.

>

> ---what in the world was his reason for that???? That makes no sense

> especially since v patches seem to work so well for many many of us.

>

> I don't know of any women on estriol that get a thing from it but

> maybe some relief from v. dryness. I hear it over and over...

>

> " I'm on hormone cream but it's not doing anything "

> me-What is it?

> " Something called biest or triest...doesn't seem to help at all "

>

> I never thought of estroil actually causing a big problem until you

> mentioned it right now. Wonder if it buggers up the estradiol

> receptors???

>

> Lynn

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/growhair/

[Guest guest]

>

> > in Austin, wanted to upgrade my V Dot patches ( " get off that crap " )

> > and put me on biest - ORAL 2.5 mg. Good grief. I was bowled over,

> > speechless not for long..... not only is it less estrogen, it's oral

> > and he was taking my 100% E2 protocol that WORKS and replacing it

with

> > mostly estriol.

>

>

> ---what in the world was his reason for that???? That makes no sense

> especially since v patches seem to work so well for many many of us.

>

> I don't know of any women on estriol that get a thing from it but

> maybe some relief from v. dryness. I hear it over and over...

>

> " I'm on hormone cream but it's not doing anything "

> me-What is it?

> " Something called biest or triest...doesn't seem to help at all "

>

> I never thought of estroil actually causing a big problem until you

> mentioned it right now. Wonder if it buggers up the estradiol

receptors???

>

> Lynn

>

So am I to understand your Dr. did the same thing to you as me? Taking

you off Patch and over to oral Biest? It is interesting and

confusing how everyone is different. After almost 3 weeks back on the

oral bi-est, my flashing has subsided, I seem to be sleeping ok,

itching seems to be subsiding...but the biggest is swelling of belly

that I experienced on patch has subsided....

[Guest guest]

Carol..... yes, Dr. Roby tried to put me on oral biest in place of the

V Dot. I wouldn't do it. The V Dot works great. I was open to adding

estriol TO what I was doing, or in place of my nightly EGel. So you

abdomen swells on the patch??

Eileen

> Posted by: " Carol " NJCarolxx@...   njcarolx

>

> So am I to understand your Dr. did the same thing to you as me? Taking

> you off Patch and over to oral Biest? It is interesting and

> confusing how everyone is different. After almost 3 weeks back on the

> oral bi-est, my flashing has subsided, I seem to be sleeping ok,

> itching seems to be subsiding...but the biggest is swelling of belly

> that I experienced on patch has subsided....

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/growhair/

[Guest guest]

>

> Carol..... yes, Dr. Roby tried to put me on oral biest in place of the

> V Dot. I wouldn't do it. The V Dot works great. I was open to

adding estriol TO what I was doing, or in place of my nightly EGel.

So your > abdomen swells on the patch??

>

>Yes, at times I looked like I was three months along.Hasnt done a lot

for my ego. I used to have a great figure. I was on 0.5 Climara patch

first with P oral, then without. On the advice of Dr. G. The thing I

don't understand is that it would seem to me that maybe I was getting

too much E. But my blood levels were always low. But in using P

vaginally every 3 or 4 months, I developed cycsts and hyperplasia?

Even though I could not get my E blood levels up.

I spoke too soon about the itching. I had a horrible episode today at

work and called Dr. M's. office. His nurse called me back and told me

he said I should stop everything for two weeks and use Benadryl

topical and oral..What the hell should I do, I can't possibly stand

being without anything till December, and I'm going to visit my 90

year old mom in two days... and when I do go in and we decide what

route to take next it will take yet another two weeks to get stabilized.

So you are using the patch and gel? Dam this it getting to be too much

for me, I've had going on three years of it. What a mess.