Re: Not So Good Morning (P problems again)

[Guest guest]

know we have been through the whole P overdosing thing yes, but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

, you are not alone, I know what you mean, P seems to reactivate all the stored P???

We sound crazy, BUT I am living it too. I am still getting P effects every time I do any heavy excersise. I would consider it just thyroid, but P should help that......and my symptoms improve with more E. One blessing for me is I have no uterus. BUT YOU ARE NOT ALONE with the P thing.

[Guest guest]

, from much research, I really do suggest trying

the different delivery system of the vaginal Crinone

4% (Prochieve 4%). Although there is some systemic

distribution, it is CONSIDERABLY less than cream,

orals, sublinguals, etc. (Even factoring in that we

are all trying to get rid of an overload of P in our

fat....,the vaginal method is going to be the most

effect to target tissues yet least toxic systemically)

I will be getting the Crinone Rx from my doc tomorrow,

and expect to then be able to begin the journey to

recovery from WP, even if it takes a year!! :)Carolyn

--- wrote:

> Hi all, I can't believe this, and I don't want to

> believe it, but it

> happens every time. Every time I apply ANY amount

> of P cream to this

> body, I get either a migraine headache,

> arthritis-like back pain. Yes I

> thought it was my imagination. I got some new P

> cream at 20 mg instead

> of 50 per line. Like clockwork, the morning after I

> applied it

> (Sunday) I can't stand up straight. My lower back

> feels like someone

> stabbed me there - all kinked up. Now I have to go

> to my osteopath to

> have it worked on. This is insane. Am I crazy?

> This happened when I

> applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May)

> and since then, it

> happens every time.

> I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P

> cream to me is

> poison. I know we have been through the whole P

> overdosing thing yes,

> but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

Yahoo! for Good

Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

[Guest guest]

Am I crazy? This happened when I

> applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since

then, it

> happens every time.

> I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me is

> poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing thing

yes,

> but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

>

>

To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with P...we

all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount of P

we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned almost

immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or ANY

P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found was

to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you

obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for

you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good to

have then when you do become able to use P again.

I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves while

using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously you

sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It is

HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is also

going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we began

before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately, there

will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened to

every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try to

stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

[Guest guest]

Why do you keep applying P cream?

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Hi all, I can't believe this, and I don't want to believe it, but it happens every time. Every time I apply ANY amount of P cream to this body, I get either a migraine headache, arthritis-like back pain. Yes I thought it was my imagination. I got some new P cream at 20 mg instead of 50 per line. Like clockwork, the morning after I applied it (Sunday) I can't stand up straight. My lower back feels like someone stabbed me there - all kinked up. Now I have to go to my osteopath to have it worked on. This is insane. Am I crazy? This happened when I applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since then, it happens every time. I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me is poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing thing yes, but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

[Guest guest]

So I finally concluded (for now - LOL) that I do not have enough P in

me. A little bit of P only made it feel worse.

>

As convoluted as it sounds, I have to agree....let's face it we are

going into uncharted territory here...a little was not good, but

finally I went to 100mg P BID to stop my periods and breakthru bleeding

once and for all and it was not too bad. Now i have lowered my P diose

to 40 mg a day

[Guest guest]

Thanks - but how do we get our DOCTORS to believe us?? My

doctor looks at me like I'm nuts when I tell him I get that pain! If

it wasn't happening to me, I wouldn't believe it either frankly!

>

> In a message dated 9/19/2005 7:18:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> merryr@u... writes:

>

> know we have been through the whole P overdosing thing yes,

> but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

>

>

>

>

>

> , you are not alone, I know what you mean, P seems to

reactivate all the

> stored P???

> We sound crazy, BUT I am living it too. I am still getting P

effects every

> time I do any heavy excersise. I would consider it just thyroid,

but P should

> help that......and my symptoms improve with more E. One blessing

for me is I

> have no uterus. BUT YOU ARE NOT ALONE with the P thing.

[Guest guest]

Oh don't worry I'm doing that Carolyn! But I'm still scared to use

even THAT? What did we do to ourselves??

>

> > Hi all, I can't believe this, and I don't want to

> > believe it, but it

> > happens every time. Every time I apply ANY amount

> > of P cream to this

> > body, I get either a migraine headache,

> > arthritis-like back pain. Yes I

> > thought it was my imagination. I got some new P

> > cream at 20 mg instead

> > of 50 per line. Like clockwork, the morning after I

> > applied it

> > (Sunday) I can't stand up straight. My lower back

> > feels like someone

> > stabbed me there - all kinked up. Now I have to go

> > to my osteopath to

> > have it worked on. This is insane. Am I crazy?

> > This happened when I

> > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May)

> > and since then, it

> > happens every time.

> > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P

> > cream to me is

> > poison. I know we have been through the whole P

> > overdosing thing yes,

> > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> ______________________________________________________

> Yahoo! for Good

> Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

[Guest guest]

Well now I think I'm going to go up to 4 mg a day of E. See how that

works. The thing that gets me is WHY is there nothing to PROVE that

we have this overload in us? Yes this is the same old problem that

Laurel and all of you were tackling months ago. I just thought I'd

be fine because I only did 1 and 1/2 months of Wiley. So I imagine

it's worse for the women who did more months! Okay I'll keep you

posted.

> Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since

> then, it

> > happens every time.

> > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me

is

> > poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing

thing

> yes,

> > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> >

> >

>

> To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with

P...we

> all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount of

P

> we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned

almost

> immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or

ANY

> P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found

was

> to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you

> obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for

> you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good to

> have then when you do become able to use P again.

>

> I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves while

> using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously

you

> sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It is

> HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is

also

> going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we

began

> before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately,

there

> will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened to

> every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try

to

> stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

>

[Guest guest]

I've been off of it for the past 20 days, so I thought I might try a

20mg cream now and see if that would affect me the same. IT DID!!!

No one would believe that it feels like the muscles in my back are

PULLED -- like pinched nerves!! (Not applying anymore now!)

> Why do you keep applying P cream?

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

>

>

> Hi all, I can't believe this, and I don't want to believe it,

but it

> happens every time. Every time I apply ANY amount of P cream to

this

> body, I get either a migraine headache, arthritis-like back

pain. Yes I

> thought it was my imagination. I got some new P cream at 20 mg

instead

> of 50 per line. Like clockwork, the morning after I applied it

> (Sunday) I can't stand up straight. My lower back feels like

someone

> stabbed me there - all kinked up. Now I have to go to my

osteopath to

> have it worked on. This is insane. Am I crazy? This happened

when I

> applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since

then, it

> happens every time.

> I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me

is

> poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing

thing yes,

> but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

[Guest guest]

No Madeleen - I did 50 mgs of P for 20 days in August so I had

enough P in me!! But along with it came a migraine every week so

that I called in sick from work and for me to to do that, I have to

be ill! And I was completely debilitated - couldn't get out of bed -

it was horrible. No I don't need to UP my P. I need to up my E if

anything. My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to hurt me to use

more. I'll just get FATTER!

> Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since

> then, it

> > happens every time.

> > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me

is

> > poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing

thing

> yes,

> > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> >

> >

>

> To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with

P...we

> all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount of

P

> we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned

almost

> immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or

ANY

> P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found

was

> to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you

> obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for

> you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good to

> have then when you do become able to use P again.

>

> I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves while

> using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously

you

> sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It is

> HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is

also

> going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we

began

> before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately,

there

> will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened to

> every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try

to

> stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

>

>

>

>

>

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

intended as medical advice.**

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh boy -- I never get low back pain but today YES. In fact, I just

got back from getting a shot in the area. OOOOWWWW did that hurt!!

I'm sitting here in a fetal position at my desk! I took 3 advils. I

just applied another line of E oil to my wrist. I hope it helps me.

I feel like an old lady. My birthday is Saturday ha ha. How I long

for my 20s. Well maybe my 1/2 grain of Armour isn't budging my

thyroid.

> ...a little was not good, but finally I went to 100mg P BID to

stop my periods and breakthru bleeding once and for all and it was

not too bad. Now i have lowered my P dose to 40 mg a day

>

>

> Thanks . I was hoping my post would ring a bell for someone

else too!

>

> I did not mention that I have had to up my thyroid supplementation

too (low back pain is also associated with low thyroid. I am now at

2 grains a day, but may need to add another grain soon. I really

think Hertoghe (The Hormone Solution) has it right, you just cannot

focus on only the two hormones E and P. And he says SMALL amounts

for the various hormones only! I am now in my second read of his

book with renewed interest!

>

> Madeleen

>

>

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

intended as medical advice.**

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm using this OO E from Del Norte. Maybe it expired for all I

know. I got it in May. When I go to my doctor, I'm going to get

new E made up. A cream this time. I think E cream is probably the

best at staying in the system. And I'm a fat blimp too!

>

> In a message dated 9/19/2005 11:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> merryr@u... writes:

>

> My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to hurt me to use

> more. I'll just get FATTER!

>

>

>

>

>

>

> OMG.............. no wonder you feel like

cr*p.........54E........what

> are you using for E, WHERE is you E????? STMB, need at least 90-

100 to build

> bones and feel well:)) L

[Guest guest]

> Well now I think I'm going to go up to 4 mg a day of E. See how

that

> works. The thing that gets me is WHY is there nothing to PROVE

that

> we have this overload in us? Yes this is the same old problem

that

> Laurel and all of you were tackling months ago. I just thought I'd

> be fine because I only did 1 and 1/2 months of Wiley. So I imagine

> it's worse for the women who did more months! Okay I'll keep you

> posted.

>

>

>

- we did something no doctor has seen before...how many dimwits

use thousands of mgs of P two weeks out of each month? and keep

applying iot while they are drying out, not sleeping, eating like

there is no tomorrow, getting buddha bellies, hurting, getting kidney

pain, and feeling horrible? WHY would there be a test to look for

this?? (It would seem we need a sanity test for actually doing this

to ourselves)!! LOL - the thing is, we all had such similar

experiences, symptoms, and the same things coming back the minute we

would touch P again - that it seems we are definitely ALL feeling it

(or have felt it).

I agree that if we use more E when we stop the P, that should help

oppose the P and mobilize it rather than having it sit there, stored.

It DID work that way for many of us. If you were zto stop or go very

low dose on BOTH at once, you would not be able to function. Use E

to lower P seems like good advice.

[Guest guest]

> ...be sure to have your doc balance that amount of

> E with the P (or actually to balance the E with the

> amount of P you are taking and that amount should not

> give you a lot of negative side effects. That will

> mean that the amount of P you are taking, and the FORM

> OF DELIVERY you are taking it in, is right for you.

> Then your doc will balance it with E.)

>

> It is WAY too dangerous to " guess " what amounts of E

> to be taking, and in what ratio balance with P. That

> should always be done with together with your doctor!!

> Good Luck - well, no, it is not luck...it should be

> good medical practice in the proofing!!:)Carolyn

>

Carolyn - the thing is, our doctors have no idea what to do for this

either! It is uncharted territory. that's why women kept having to

go to Susie to find out what to do if this or that happened. And the

improvement is not going to happen in a couple of doses, or a week

or even a month...it has to do with slowly bringing ourselves back to

where we want to be, and having a plan to do that.

My plan was to stop my periods and to stop breakthrough bleeding...so

this was something the doctor could work with me on. But I didn't

ask him to help me with that until I had gotten the excess P out of

my system and that took about 3-4 months, 3-4 mgs E daily, and my

usual 4 grains of Armour daily.

Now - I don't know if it is different for someone who doesn't operate

by intuition as things happen. I could not think this through..I

just had to go with my gut and get there on my own. I do not think my

doctor or any doctor could have told me " steady as you go " day by

day...I had to take each day as it came and to look at how I felt

from day to day. I think that most of us really KNOW, if we tune

into ourselves if something is a definite bad symptom...other than

that, it's best not to think into it too much and to be patient and

let it play out.

[Guest guest]

> ...Well........

> 1)is he a trained gynocologist?

>

Methinks Carolyn has an inordinate amount of faith in " trained

gynecologists " ....a gynecologist often does not understand bio-

identical hormones at all...maybe it is different in CA, but not here

in the Midwest. A gynecologist, even the Chief of staffs/heads of

obstetrics and gynecology at some of the leading Chicago hospitals I

have seen will do test after test, and use mainstream medcine and tell

you what every other gyne will tell you - " there is nothing abnormal

here - we will keep an eye on it " then they will prescribe something,

and when it is not working, try something else...nothing exceptional

about them. Honestly I do not think so.

[Guest guest]

The only " yes " is to number 4. Lots of doctors don't " buy " the

old " stored in the fat " theory but they haven't worked on guinea

pigs like us!

> > > > > Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > > > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley

> > days

> > > > (May) and since

> > > > > then, it

> > > > > > happens every time.

> > > > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel.

> > But

> > > > that P cream to me

> > > > is

> > > > > > poison. I know we have been through the

> > whole P

> > > > overdosing

> > > > thing

> > > > > yes,

> > > > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL

> > > > overloaded with

> > > > P...we

> > > > > all went thru the thing where, if we applied

> > even

> > > > a tiny amount of

> > > > P

> > > > > we felt like hell again and the troublesome

> > > > symptoms returned

> > > > almost

> > > > > immediately. I think you will have problems

> > with

> > > > vaginal gel or

> > > > ANY

> > > > > P until you get more of it out of your system.

> > One

> > > > way we found

> > > > was

> > > > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P,

> > other

> > > > than that, you

> > > > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the

> > crinone

> > > > works for

> > > > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any

> > > > better. It is good to

> > > > > have then when you do become able to use P

> > again.

> > > > >

> > > > > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT

> > hurting

> > > > ourselves while

> > > > > using E and no P until our P levels normalized

> > > > again - obviously

> > > > you

> > > > > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to

> > hear

> > > > this . It is

> > > > > HELL. I can only think that anyone else

> > getting

> > > > off the WP is

> > > > also

> > > > > going to go thru months of hell trying to get

> > back

> > > > to where we

> > > > began

> > > > > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff.

> > And,

> > > > unfortunately,

> > > > there

> > > > > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P.

> > It

> > > > has happened to

> > > > > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it

> > for a

> > > > while and try

> > > > to

> > > > > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > __________________________________

> > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

> > > http://mail.yahoo.com

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

-- " Methinks " so too! Trained gyno? that means nothing to

me!

> > ...Well........

> > 1)is he a trained gynocologist?

> >

>

> Methinks Carolyn has an inordinate amount of faith in " trained

> gynecologists " ....a gynecologist often does not understand bio-

> identical hormones at all...maybe it is different in CA, but not

here

> in the Midwest. A gynecologist, even the Chief of staffs/heads of

> obstetrics and gynecology at some of the leading Chicago hospitals

I

> have seen will do test after test, and use mainstream medcine and

tell

> you what every other gyne will tell you - " there is nothing

abnormal

> here - we will keep an eye on it " then they will prescribe

something,

> and when it is not working, try something else...nothing

exceptional

> about them. Honestly I do not think so.

>

[Guest guest]

I just can't see how anyone COULDN'T build up too much P on Wiley !

How did you escape? Maybe your body needed it! But that itching is

a horror show too. I know. I get that as well when things aren't

right. Forget IUD. I'm not doing that!

> Well I guess if I get breakthrough bleeding, I'll know that I

don't have enough P. And you never got the pain from P did you?

>

> NO, I never got pain from P while on WP, just severe itching with

high doses, which was bad enough! I don't think I built up too much

P in my system in the 4 months I did WP like others did. But I am

not very fond of P - makes me a bit dull and the E is so luringly

wonderful. The breakthrough bleeding and low back pain was a

warning sign for me to up my P (or lower my E, but that brought on

too many joint pains, so that is not an option).

>

> I do not know what delivery system is the best. I tried a low dose

OO/P in a cap in the vagina, but got too dry and uncomfortable. I

think if I would consider anything else, perhaps an IUD, but am

reluctant. I know Sammie likes it and swears by it!

>

> I am trying a concert of hormones first to see if I have any

better luck. Like you, still looking for that sweet spot (as Nui

always says)! Maybe some day I will be perfect???? Just kidding.

LOLOL

>

> Madeleen

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

> > >

> > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

> > intended as medical advice.**

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

-- I'm afraid I'm one of those DIMWITS!! So I guess I have

to get myself out of this situation. Henceforth, I am UPPING my E

to 4 mg a day (hear that World?). When I start feeling like a brick

shithouse, then I will DARE to try using P again (but I'll get my

Crinone ready!) As a matter of fact, I went VERY low dose on the P

and E, and you are right, I felt HORRIBLE!

> - we did something no doctor has seen before...how many

dimwits

> use thousands of mgs of P two weeks out of each month? and keep

> applying iot while they are drying out, not sleeping, eating like

> there is no tomorrow, getting buddha bellies, hurting, getting

kidney

> pain, and feeling horrible? WHY would there be a test to look

for

> this?? (It would seem we need a sanity test for actually doing

this

> to ourselves)!! LOL - the thing is, we all had such similar

> experiences, symptoms, and the same things coming back the minute

we

> would touch P again - that it seems we are definitely ALL feeling

it

> (or have felt it).

>

> I agree that if we use more E when we stop the P, that should help

> oppose the P and mobilize it rather than having it sit there,

stored.

> It DID work that way for many of us. If you were zto stop or go

very

> low dose on BOTH at once, you would not be able to function. Use

E

> to lower P seems like good advice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes I think I need new E as well. One of these days, I'll be

writing to you all that I finally got it RIGHT.

> > >

> > > In a message dated 9/19/2005 11:10:36 AM Pacific

> > Standard Time,

> > > merryr@u... writes:

> > >

> > > My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to hurt me

> > to use

> > > more. I'll just get FATTER!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > OMG.............. no wonder you feel like

> > cr*p.........54E........what

> > > are you using for E, WHERE is you E????? STMB,

> > need at least 90-

> > 100 to build

> > > bones and feel well:)) L

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

> LOL LOL !!

>

> There is a story about the HEE HAW CLINIC (named after

> the TV sitcom of the same name..) wherein the patient

> comes in for his clinic appointment, and, raising his

> arm, says to the doctor... " Doc, it hurts when I do

> this.. "

> And the doctor knocks his arm down and retorts, " Well,

> then...STOP DOING THAT!! "

>

> Kinda amazing that many of us, while still getting

> nasty side effects that are as those of high P levels

> of PMS and 3rd trimester of pregnancy, are STILL

> continuing to bathe ourselves in creams of high P.

> Hello??? HEE HAW Carolyn

>

I am a person who has always done well on progesterone cream. So I

maintain the positiion that it is not the transdermal P - at least

not for me - that made me ill - it was the HIGH DOSES. Now - I know

there are women who don't do well on P at all, but that is not me.

Wiley would not publicly answer questions...after the meetings, from

what I understand, she used to take women one by one privately and

say " use more E, use more P, use cortef " etc. When asked questions

on the boards, she stopped coming online...didn't want anything in

writing. She wanted to speak by phone to women with questions

(probably still dose)...this way, there were no witnesses that she

was actually telling women to use more E, use more P, in other words,

practicing medicine without a license.

When asked publicly WHY a woman was having dreadful symptoms, Susie

said " I have ALWAYS told women to see their doctors - do this under a

doctor's care!! HOW STUPID to keep applying more and more without a

dotor telling you to do this!! If you are sick, it is because you did

not go to your doctor and instead decided to self treat and to play

with your doses...ANY diversion from the Wiley protocol dosing

schedule in the book or given by the pharmacy instruction is NOT the

WP!! if you get sick, it is because you did not follow the protocol.

if you aren't following the protocol, I have no idea what you are

doing!! " She and Caren kept saying that no wonder women were sick -

they WERE playing with their doses and not consulting a doctor...so

she has no comment on whatever it is they are doing. YET NO DOCTOR

UNDERSTOOD IT....at least not here in Chicago, or out East, in NY,

and the East coast. They simply prescribed it because Susie talked

to them on the phone, there was a website/ " real-time support group "

(the RL, as Neil put it) and they were confident we would have

support and as time went on they too, busy as they are in their

practices would understand it and see how their patients were faring

on it.

My doc simply capitulated after my many months of eating his heart

out. HE took months befofe prescribing it to understand it and he

warned me that it wasn't a good idea in his mind, because it didn't

make sense to him - he called Dr. Taguchi to confer with her about

it...YES - this can also get doctors into trouble, because they are

not supposed to prescribe something they do not understand, something

which is not " standard of care " ....She had EVERYONE by the short

hairs.

[Guest guest]

Liz -- you were taking 4 -5 mgs of E and still got a 79 level of E?

I don't know what the Climara patch is - isn't that synthetic ?

> > Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since

> > then, it

> > > happens every time.

> > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to

me

> is

> > > poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing

> thing

> > yes,

> > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with

> P...we

> > all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount

of

> P

> > we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned

> almost

> > immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or

> ANY

> > P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found

> was

> > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you

> > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for

> > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good

to

> > have then when you do become able to use P again.

> >

> > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves

while

> > using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously

> you

> > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It

is

> > HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is

> also

> > going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we

> began

> > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately,

> there

> > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened

to

> > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try

> to

> > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

> >

> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

> intended as medical advice.**

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well apparently, this is happening to me too. But how much over the

day?? I have 2 mg drops! I can't apply 2 mgs 4x a day. And

applying 1 mg at ANY point in the day will NOT be enough! I think

I'm not getting right amounts. I don't think a half a drop equals 1

mg. of E.

>

> In a message dated 9/19/2005 11:31:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> merryr@u... writes:

>

> I'm using this OO E from Del Norte. Maybe it expired for all I

> know. I got it in May. When I go to my doctor, I'm going to get

> new E made up. A cream this time. I think E cream is probably

the

> best at staying in the system. And I'm a fat blimp too!

>

>

>

>

>

> , OOE seems to need 4Xday applications for me. I hope you find

one that

> gets in and lasts longer, I'm still looking.....I seem to suck up

E and then

> it's gone, keep us posted ) .L

[Guest guest]

> WOW, ....you just posted one hell of a good

> truth!!!!

>

> Wiley WAS PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENSE!

hee hee...I do my best stream-of-consciousness posting (in order to

waste time)when I really SHOULD BE walking out the door...now and then

I feel the need to launch a diatribe just to clear my mind No real

point to it, other than I felt like I wanted to say it

[Guest guest]

Yeah but I have a uterus. And my problem was heavy bleeding before I

started any hormone therapy. So I have to be careful not go too high

on the E. I think 4 mg may be my lucky number.

>

>

>

> , I just do 2mgs. 4xday.......and sometimes more for bedtime....I

have

> the 2mgs. per drop OOE from WIP...........goes right in.........4

drops =ed 440

> in my labs 4 hrs after application. L