Re: Re: Not So Good Morning (P problems again)

[Guest guest]

My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to hurt me to use more. I'll just get FATTER!

OMG.............. no wonder you feel like cr*p.........54E........what are you using for E, WHERE is you E????? STMB, need at least 90-100 to build bones and feel well:)) L

[Guest guest]

,

I have been having bad low back pains too, as well as sore knees and break through bleeding. I had reduced my E and P as much as possible.

Finally I got so disgusted this weekend that in the AM I squirted 2 lines of old P cream (50mg) on my wrist and applied 3 drops of P with DMSO on my pelvis (because also was starting to get cramping) and on my knees. That helped. I did the same thing last night and this morning and the low back pain is starting to go away, no cramping, no breakthrough bleeding. So I finally concluded (for now - LOL) that I do not have enough P in me. A little bit of P only made it feel worse.

I also have to say that the only bad reaction I got from high WP/P was itching, and I did not stay on the high levels for long. I did not get migraines or arthritic pains. So I do not know what is best for you, but just thought I would tell you what I am trying. I will let you know if it continues to work.

Madeleen

astrodiana wrote:

Am I crazy? This happened when I > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since then, it > happens every time. > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me is > poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing thing yes, > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me! > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with P...we all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount of P we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned almost immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or ANY P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found was to use enough E to

mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good to have then when you do become able to use P again.I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves while using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously you sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It is HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is also going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we began before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately, there will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened to every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try to stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Guest guest]

astrodiana wrote:

....a little was not good, but finally I went to 100mg P BID to stop my periods and breakthru bleeding once and for all and it was not too bad. Now i have lowered my P dose to 40 mg a day

Thanks . I was hoping my post would ring a bell for someone else too!

I did not mention that I have had to up my thyroid supplementation too (low back pain is also associated with low thyroid. I am now at 2 grains a day, but may need to add another grain soon. I really think Hertoghe (The Hormone Solution) has it right, you just cannot focus on only the two hormones E and P. And he says SMALL amounts for the various hormones only! I am now in my second read of his book with renewed interest!

Madeleen__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

Fatter is way better than not happy. Do you have STBH? I have been suffering from depression and anxiety again for the last week. So, I have been doing a lot of reading in her book. She states (I can't remember what page) that you MUST have your E levels up to optimum for your P to work.I think this is where it really went wrong for me on the WP. My E levels never got up there no matter how much I used and I just kept putting on P. (Not to mention how high the amounts were) Get your E up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just did my blood and my E was 79. No wonder I feel like s**t. That was with .1mg Climara patch and that's was with 4-6 mgs of E over that last week before the test. And supposedly good clean stuff from Bill Altmiller. I got to figure out why my E isn't going up.

Liz

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:08 AMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

No Madeleen - I did 50 mgs of P for 20 days in August so I had enough P in me!! But along with it came a migraine every week so that I called in sick from work and for me to to do that, I have to be ill! And I was completely debilitated - couldn't get out of bed - it was horrible. No I don't need to UP my P. I need to up my E if anything. My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to hurt me to use more. I'll just get FATTER!> Am I crazy? This happened when I > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since > then, it > > happens every time. > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me is > > poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing thing > yes, > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me! > > > > > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with P...we > all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount of P > we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned almost > immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or ANY > P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found was > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good to > have then when you do become able to use P again.> > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves while > using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously you > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It is > HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is also > going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we began > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately, there > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened to > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try to > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .> > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** > > > >

[Guest guest]

...Well........

1)is he a trained gynocologist?

2)does he understand how a supraphysiologic dose of

progesterone, especially taken over a long time, (by

definition, a " pharmacological " dosing rather than a

" physiological " dosing) causes the P to accumulate in

toxic doses in the female fat depots? Is he aware of

this metabolic fact?

3)if not, is he willing to consult with a compounding

pharmacist, who will hopefully educate him in this??

4)is he aware that only 45mg of P taken vaginally is

enough to " do the trick " ???

5)is he aware that 3-4mg of E is on the high end??

Love, Carolyn

--- wrote:

> How can my doctor help me with balancing when he

> doesn't know what

> happened to my system after Wiley? He tells me to

> take 75 mg a day

> if I'm taking 3 mg of E a day. So he'll tell me 100

> mg a day if I

> take 4. I already know what he'll tell me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley

> days

> > > (May) and since

> > > > then, it

> > > > > happens every time.

> > > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel.

> But

> > > that P cream to me

> > > is

> > > > > poison. I know we have been through the

> whole P

> > > overdosing

> > > thing

> > > > yes,

> > > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL

> > > overloaded with

> > > P...we

> > > > all went thru the thing where, if we applied

> even

> > > a tiny amount of

> > > P

> > > > we felt like hell again and the troublesome

> > > symptoms returned

> > > almost

> > > > immediately. I think you will have problems

> with

> > > vaginal gel or

> > > ANY

> > > > P until you get more of it out of your system.

> One

> > > way we found

> > > was

> > > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P,

> other

> > > than that, you

> > > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the

> crinone

> > > works for

> > > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any

> > > better. It is good to

> > > > have then when you do become able to use P

> again.

> > > >

> > > > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT

> hurting

> > > ourselves while

> > > > using E and no P until our P levels normalized

> > > again - obviously

> > > you

> > > > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to

> hear

> > > this . It is

> > > > HELL. I can only think that anyone else

> getting

> > > off the WP is

> > > also

> > > > going to go thru months of hell trying to get

> back

> > > to where we

> > > began

> > > > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff.

> And,

> > > unfortunately,

> > > there

> > > > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P.

> It

> > > has happened to

> > > > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it

> for a

> > > while and try

> > > to

> > > > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________

> > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

> > http://mail.yahoo.com

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

LOL LOL !!

There is a story about the HEE HAW CLINIC (named after

the TV sitcom of the same name..) wherein the patient

comes in for his clinic appointment, and, raising his

arm, says to the doctor... " Doc, it hurts when I do

this.. "

And the doctor knocks his arm down and retorts, " Well,

then...STOP DOING THAT!! "

Kinda amazing that many of us, while still getting

nasty side effects that are as those of high P levels

of PMS and 3rd trimester of pregnancy, are STILL

continuing to bathe ourselves in creams of high P.

Hello??? HEE HAW Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > Well now I think I'm going to go up to 4 mg a day

> of E. See how

> that

> > works. The thing that gets me is WHY is there

> nothing to PROVE

> that

> > we have this overload in us? Yes this is the

> same old problem

> that

> > Laurel and all of you were tackling months ago. I

> just thought I'd

> > be fine because I only did 1 and 1/2 months of

> Wiley. So I imagine

> > it's worse for the women who did more months!

> Okay I'll keep you

> > posted.

> >

> >

> >

>

> - we did something no doctor has seen

> before...how many dimwits

> use thousands of mgs of P two weeks out of each

> month? and keep

> applying iot while they are drying out, not

> sleeping, eating like

> there is no tomorrow, getting buddha bellies,

> hurting, getting kidney

> pain, and feeling horrible? WHY would there be a

> test to look for

> this?? (It would seem we need a sanity test for

> actually doing this

> to ourselves)!! LOL - the thing is, we all had

> such similar

> experiences, symptoms, and the same things coming

> back the minute we

> would touch P again - that it seems we are

> definitely ALL feeling it

> (or have felt it).

>

> I agree that if we use more E when we stop the P,

> that should help

> oppose the P and mobilize it rather than having it

> sit there, stored.

> It DID work that way for many of us. If you were

> zto stop or go very

> low dose on BOTH at once, you would not be able to

> function. Use E

> to lower P seems like good advice.

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of beth

And supposedly good clean stuff from Bill Altmiller. I got to figure out why my E isn't going up.

Liz

[Guest guest]

wrote:

Well I guess if I get breakthrough bleeding, I'll know that I don't have enough P. And you never got the pain from P did you?

NO, I never got pain from P while on WP, just severe itching with high doses, which was bad enough! I don't think I built up too much P in my system in the 4 months I did WP like others did. But I am not very fond of P - makes me a bit dull and the E is so luringly wonderful. The breakthrough bleeding and low back pain was a warning sign for me to up my P (or lower my E, but that brought on too many joint pains, so that is not an option).

I do not know what delivery system is the best. I tried a low dose OO/P in a cap in the vagina, but got too dry and uncomfortable. I think if I would consider anything else, perhaps an IUD, but am reluctant. I know Sammie likes it and swears by it!

I am trying a concert of hormones first to see if I have any better luck. Like you, still looking for that sweet spot (as Nui always says)! Maybe some day I will be perfect???? Just kidding. LOLOL

Madeleen

> > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as medical advice.** > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a plan, !! And one that SHOULD be

able to be used, with such common sense intuition, by

good docs as well....when we can find them!!!

Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > ...be sure to have your doc balance that

> amount of

> > E with the P (or actually to balance the E with

> the

> > amount of P you are taking and that amount should

> not

> > give you a lot of negative side effects. That will

> > mean that the amount of P you are taking, and the

> FORM

> > OF DELIVERY you are taking it in, is right for

> you.

> > Then your doc will balance it with E.)

> >

> > It is WAY too dangerous to " guess " what amounts of

> E

> > to be taking, and in what ratio balance with P.

> That

> > should always be done with together with your

> doctor!!

> > Good Luck - well, no, it is not luck...it should

> be

> > good medical practice in the proofing!!:)Carolyn

> >

>

> Carolyn - the thing is, our doctors have no idea

> what to do for this

> either! It is uncharted territory. that's why

> women kept having to

> go to Susie to find out what to do if this or that

> happened. And the

> improvement is not going to happen in a couple of

> doses, or a week

> or even a month...it has to do with slowly bringing

> ourselves back to

> where we want to be, and having a plan to do that.

>

> My plan was to stop my periods and to stop

> breakthrough bleeding...so

> this was something the doctor could work with me on.

> But I didn't

> ask him to help me with that until I had gotten the

> excess P out of

> my system and that took about 3-4 months, 3-4 mgs E

> daily, and my

> usual 4 grains of Armour daily.

>

> Now - I don't know if it is different for someone

> who doesn't operate

> by intuition as things happen. I could not think

> this through..I

> just had to go with my gut and get there on my own.

> I do not think my

> doctor or any doctor could have told me " steady as

> you go " day by

> day...I had to take each day as it came and to look

> at how I felt

> from day to day. I think that most of us really

> KNOW, if we tune

> into ourselves if something is a definite bad

> symptom...other than

> that, it's best not to think into it too much and to

> be patient and

> let it play out.

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Damn straight, Liz!! E is needed to prime the

receptors!

Congratulations for having the fortitude and the

tenacity to read STBH. It is solid stuff, and any time

I am tempted to start " guessing " , I open that book as

a med resource, like a medical school book.

AND then relate the info to my doc if she questions

what I am trying to say!! Good checks and balances in

working that gynocological partnership!:)Carolyn

--- beth wrote:

> ,

>

> Fatter is way better than not happy. Do you have

> STBH? I have been

> suffering from depression and anxiety again for the

> last week. So, I have

> been doing a lot of reading in her book. She states

> (I can't remember what

> page) that you MUST have your E levels up to optimum

> for your P to work.I

> think this is where it really went wrong for me on

> the WP. My E levels never

> got up there no matter how much I used and I just

> kept putting on P. (Not to

> mention how high the amounts were) Get your E

> up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I

> just did my blood and my E was 79. No wonder I feel

> like s**t. That was with

> .1mg Climara patch and that's was with 4-6 mgs of E

> over that last week

> before the test. And supposedly good clean stuff

> from Bill Altmiller. I got

> to figure out why my E isn't going up.

>

> Liz

>

> _____

>

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]

> On Behalf Of

> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:08 AM

> To: rhythmicliving

> Subject: Re: Not So " Good Morning "

> (P problems again)

>

>

> No Madeleen - I did 50 mgs of P for 20 days in

> August so I had

> enough P in me!! But along with it came a migraine

> every week so

> that I called in sick from work and for me to to do

> that, I have to

> be ill! And I was completely debilitated - couldn't

> get out of bed -

> it was horrible. No I don't need to UP my P. I

> need to up my E if

> anything. My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to

> hurt me to use

> more. I'll just get FATTER!

>

>

>

>

> > Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days

> (May) and since

> > then, it

> > > happens every time.

> > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But

> that P cream to me

> is

> > > poison. I know we have been through the whole P

> overdosing

> thing

> > yes,

> > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> > >

> > >

> >

> > To me, what this means is that you are STILL

> overloaded with

> P...we

> > all went thru the thing where, if we applied even

> a tiny amount of

> P

> > we felt like hell again and the troublesome

> symptoms returned

> almost

> > immediately. I think you will have problems with

> vaginal gel or

> ANY

> > P until you get more of it out of your system. One

> way we found

> was

> > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other

> than that, you

> > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone

> works for

> > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any

> better. It is good to

> > have then when you do become able to use P again.

> >

> > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting

> ourselves while

> > using E and no P until our P levels normalized

> again - obviously

> you

> > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear

> this . It is

> > HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting

> off the WP is

> also

> > going to go thru months of hell trying to get back

> to where we

> began

> > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And,

> unfortunately,

> there

> > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It

> has happened to

> > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a

> while and try

> to

> > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > click here for our webpage

> http://rhythmicliving.com/

> >

> > **The group conversation is informational in

> nature and is not

> intended as medical advice.**

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I wished I had read STBH first instead of SLM. It would have made sense to me and I might not have done what I did with the WP. As I already had history with P. And believe me I was VERY nervous going in to the WP re:high P's. Didn't seem to bother me the first few months. I'm guessing because I was so low on P since I had virtually had used nothing for 5 years, but then whamo.......... NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to start working with a Naturopath today. She compounds her own stuff and hopefully I can find something that I will actually absorb (and cost less)

Liz V.

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of carolyn eganSent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:59 AMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: RE: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

Damn straight, Liz!! E is needed to prime thereceptors!Congratulations for having the fortitude and thetenacity to read STBH. It is solid stuff, and any timeI am tempted to start "guessing", I open that book asa med resource, like a medical school book.AND then relate the info to my doc if she questionswhat I am trying to say!! Good checks and balances inworking that gynocological partnership!:)Carolyn--- beth wrote:> ,> > Fatter is way better than not happy. Do you have> STBH? I have been> suffering from depression and anxiety again for the> last week. So, I have> been doing a lot of reading in her book. She states> (I can't remember what> page) that you MUST have your E levels up to optimum> for your P to work.I> think this is where it really went wrong for me on> the WP. My E levels never> got up there no matter how much I used and I just> kept putting on P. (Not to> mention how high the amounts were) Get your E> up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I> just did my blood and my E was 79. No wonder I feel> like s**t. That was with> .1mg Climara patch and that's was with 4-6 mgs of E> over that last week> before the test. And supposedly good clean stuff> from Bill Altmiller. I got> to figure out why my E isn't going up.> > Liz> > _____ > > From: rhythmicliving > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]> On Behalf Of > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:08 AM> To: rhythmicliving > Subject: Re: Not So "Good Morning"> (P problems again)> > > No Madeleen - I did 50 mgs of P for 20 days in> August so I had > enough P in me!! But along with it came a migraine> every week so > that I called in sick from work and for me to to do> that, I have to > be ill! And I was completely debilitated - couldn't> get out of bed - > it was horrible. No I don't need to UP my P. I> need to up my E if > anything. My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to> hurt me to use > more. I'll just get FATTER!> > > > > > Am I crazy? This happened when I > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days> (May) and since > > then, it > > > happens every time. > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But> that P cream to me > is > > > poison. I know we have been through the whole P> overdosing > thing > > yes, > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me! > > > > > > > > > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL> overloaded with > P...we > > all went thru the thing where, if we applied even> a tiny amount of > P > > we felt like hell again and the troublesome> symptoms returned > almost > > immediately. I think you will have problems with> vaginal gel or > ANY > > P until you get more of it out of your system. One> way we found > was > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other> than that, you > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone> works for > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any> better. It is good to > > have then when you do become able to use P again.> > > > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting> ourselves while > > using E and no P until our P levels normalized> again - obviously > you > > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear> this . It is > > HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting> off the WP is > also > > going to go thru months of hell trying to get back> to where we > began > > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And,> unfortunately, > there > > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It> has happened to > > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a> while and try > to > > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage> http://rhythmicliving.com/> > > > **The group conversation is informational in> nature and is not > intended as medical advice.** > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

astrodiana wrote:

"there is nothing abnormal here - we will keep an eye on it" then they will prescribe something, and when it is not working, try something else...nothing exceptional about them.

, I agree and since that appears to be the case, I may as well be in charge of experimenting myself! No problem there. I did that when I had breast cancer(other than surgery and radiation, although the radiation has given me nothing but trouble and did not prevent a recurrence).

I was told I would be dead in 5 years if I did not do aggressive chemo and hormone blockers. Never mind. No chemo and tamoxifen for me! And voila I am still alive 14 years later!

I've read and reread my huge stacks of hormone books and as the info gets more and more saturated in my brain, I dare to do something new or different to see if it works better. I don't think anyone here on this list, testing or no testing, experts or no experts, had found the golden wand of BHRT yet. Would like one though! LOL.

Madeleen

Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Guest guest]

I'm beginning to think cream as the numbers hardly ever went up on anyone's cream. Once in a while, I would get something in 200 or 330 even 1 time 400 but never consistent.

Liz V.

Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

Val

[Guest guest]

Remember, I got a reading of 671 on olive oil E!!!!!! when doing WP. Madeleenbeth wrote:

I'm beginning to think cream as the numbers hardly ever went up on anyone's cream. Once in a while, I would get something in 200 or 330 even 1 time 400 but never consistent.

Liz V.

Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

Val

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I second that, Val!!!!!! :)Carolyn

--- Valarie wrote:

> Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of

> beth

>

>

> And supposedly good clean stuff from Bill

> Altmiller. I got to figure out

> why my E isn't going up.

>

> Liz

>

>

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Yes, I was using 4-6 mgs of E plus .1mg Climara patch (it's estridiol)

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:13 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

Liz -- you were taking 4 -5 mgs of E and still got a 79 level of E? I don't know what the Climara patch is - isn't that synthetic ? > > Am I crazy? This happened when I > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days (May) and since > > then, it > > > happens every time. > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But that P cream to me > is > > > poison. I know we have been through the whole P overdosing > thing > > yes, > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me! > > > > > > > > > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL overloaded with > P...we > > all went thru the thing where, if we applied even a tiny amount of > P > > we felt like hell again and the troublesome symptoms returned > almost > > immediately. I think you will have problems with vaginal gel or > ANY > > P until you get more of it out of your system. One way we found > was > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other than that, you > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone works for > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any better. It is good to > > have then when you do become able to use P again.> > > > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting ourselves while > > using E and no P until our P levels normalized again - obviously > you > > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear this . It is > > HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting off the WP is > also > > going to go thru months of hell trying to get back to where we > began > > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And, unfortunately, > there > > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It has happened to > > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a while and try > to > > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as medical advice.** > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Okay, I think I"m going to try OO. I will see if the NP will make me some in organic OO at 1mg per drop. Yes?

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of MadeleenSent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:13 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: RE: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

Remember, I got a reading of 671 on olive oil E!!!!!! when doing WP. Madeleenbeth wrote:

I'm beginning to think cream as the numbers hardly ever went up on anyone's cream. Once in a while, I would get something in 200 or 330 even 1 time 400 but never consistent.

Liz V.

Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

Val

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Oh, , I know. Yuck!! I've been to so many docs in

the last 15 years of HRT, that I could get a PhD in

" How to Deal with Docs " class 101. And, sorry to say,

that also includes the " heads of states " at Mayo. But

then, there is always more quantity to be had than

quality...in WHATEVER field...so the burden remains

upon us to keep up the good search..or, maybe more

importantly, the good study of self-researching. So

that when we DO find a health practioner that is

halfway of current ed himself/herself, that we can

argue our case to conviction (his/hers, that is LOL).

God knows, we all found out what happened when we

followed, what I call, all the " Pop-Docs " that pepper

the landscape,bookscape,and medscape out there!!

Like Sammie says....we always court danger when we try

to be our own doctors (i.e., without investing our own

intuition together in a partnership with a doctor!!)

But, yeah...there ARE as many Flop-Docs out there as

there are crooked attorneys, predatory priests, and

rapacious financial advisors!!

Which leads us back to the absolute necessity of

keeping ourselves educated!!!! :)Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > ...Well........

> > 1)is he a trained gynocologist?

> >

>

> Methinks Carolyn has an inordinate amount of

> faith in " trained

> gynecologists " ....a gynecologist often does not

> understand bio-

> identical hormones at all...maybe it is different in

> CA, but not here

> in the Midwest. A gynecologist, even the Chief of

> staffs/heads of

> obstetrics and gynecology at some of the leading

> Chicago hospitals I

> have seen will do test after test, and use

> mainstream medcine and tell

> you what every other gyne will tell you - " there is

> nothing abnormal

> here - we will keep an eye on it " then they will

> prescribe something,

> and when it is not working, try something

> else...nothing exceptional

> about them. Honestly I do not think so.

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Right Liz, 1mg/drop! Remember you have to take it more often during the day to keep the levels up! That is the part I had trouble with, because I would forget and then...trouble! So I wear a gel patch now and add OO when needed. But my patch is an 8mg Estraderm patch which lasts me for 2 days. So I figure I am getting 4mg of E a day plus a little more when needed with either OO/E or Oestrogel!

Just to check in with you, I thought you were using Bill Altmeier's cream? which should work equally as well. At least that is what Laurel found. The good part is OO/E is much cheaper!

Madeleenbeth wrote:

Okay, I think I"m going to try OO. I will see if the NP will make me some in organic OO at 1mg per drop. Yes?

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of MadeleenSent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:13 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: RE: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

Remember, I got a reading of 671 on olive oil E!!!!!! when doing WP. Madeleenbeth wrote:

I'm beginning to think cream as the numbers hardly ever went up on anyone's cream. Once in a while, I would get something in 200 or 330 even 1 time 400 but never consistent.

Liz V.

Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

Val

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Oh, jeeeeeepers, ! I think I am going to run into

traffic just to cool off!!! LOL! :)Carolyn

--- wrote:

> The only " yes " is to number 4. Lots of doctors

> don't " buy " the

> old " stored in the fat " theory but they haven't

> worked on guinea

> pigs like us!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > > > Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > > > > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my

> Wiley

> > > days

> > > > > (May) and since

> > > > > > then, it

> > > > > > > happens every time.

> > > > > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel.

>

> > > But

> > > > > that P cream to me

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > poison. I know we have been through the

> > > whole P

> > > > > overdosing

> > > > > thing

> > > > > > yes,

> > > > > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to

> me!

> > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To me, what this means is that you are

> STILL

> > > > > overloaded with

> > > > > P...we

> > > > > > all went thru the thing where, if we

> applied

> > > even

> > > > > a tiny amount of

> > > > > P

> > > > > > we felt like hell again and the

> troublesome

> > > > > symptoms returned

> > > > > almost

> > > > > > immediately. I think you will have

> problems

> > > with

> > > > > vaginal gel or

> > > > > ANY

> > > > > > P until you get more of it out of your

> system.

> > > One

> > > > > way we found

> > > > > was

> > > > > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P,

> > > other

> > > > > than that, you

> > > > > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the

> > > crinone

> > > > > works for

> > > > > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work

> any

> > > > > better. It is good to

> > > > > > have then when you do become able to use P

> > > again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT

> > > hurting

> > > > > ourselves while

> > > > > > using E and no P until our P levels

> normalized

> > > > > again - obviously

> > > > > you

> > > > > > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry

> to

> > > hear

> > > > > this . It is

> > > > > > HELL. I can only think that anyone else

> > > getting

> > > > > off the WP is

> > > > > also

> > > > > > going to go thru months of hell trying to

> get

> > > back

> > > > > to where we

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Mega good luck, Liz!! At least you will have the STBH

as a reference source, and will be able to use that as

a guideline with her!! :)Carolyn

--- beth wrote:

> I wished I had read STBH first instead of SLM. It

> would have made sense to

> me and I might not have done what I did with the WP.

> As I already had

> history with P. And believe me I was VERY nervous

> going in to the WP re:high

> P's. Didn't seem to bother me the first few months.

> I'm guessing because I

> was so low on P since I had virtually had used

> nothing for 5 years, but then

> whamo.......... NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> I'm going to start working with a Naturopath today.

> She compounds her own

> stuff and hopefully I can find something that I will

> actually absorb (and

> cost less)

>

> Liz V.

>

> _____

>

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]

> On Behalf Of carolyn egan

> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:59 AM

> To: rhythmicliving

> Subject: RE: Re: Not So " Good

> Morning " (P problems again)

>

>

> Damn straight, Liz!! E is needed to prime the

> receptors!

> Congratulations for having the fortitude and the

> tenacity to read STBH. It is solid stuff, and any

> time

> I am tempted to start " guessing " , I open that book

> as

> a med resource, like a medical school book.

> AND then relate the info to my doc if she questions

> what I am trying to say!! Good checks and balances

> in

> working that gynocological partnership!:)Carolyn

>

> --- beth wrote:

>

> > ,

> >

> > Fatter is way better than not happy. Do you have

> > STBH? I have been

> > suffering from depression and anxiety again for

> the

> > last week. So, I have

> > been doing a lot of reading in her book. She

> states

> > (I can't remember what

> > page) that you MUST have your E levels up to

> optimum

> > for your P to work.I

> > think this is where it really went wrong for me on

> > the WP. My E levels never

> > got up there no matter how much I used and I just

> > kept putting on P. (Not to

> > mention how high the amounts were) Get your E

> > up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I

> > just did my blood and my E was 79. No wonder I

> feel

> > like s**t. That was with

> > .1mg Climara patch and that's was with 4-6 mgs of

> E

> > over that last week

> > before the test. And supposedly good clean stuff

> > from Bill Altmiller. I got

> > to figure out why my E isn't going up.

> >

> > Liz

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: rhythmicliving

> > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]

> > On Behalf Of

> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:08 AM

> > To: rhythmicliving

> > Subject: Re: Not So " Good

> Morning "

> > (P problems again)

> >

> >

> > No Madeleen - I did 50 mgs of P for 20 days in

> > August so I had

> > enough P in me!! But along with it came a

> migraine

> > every week so

> > that I called in sick from work and for me to to

> do

> > that, I have to

> > be ill! And I was completely debilitated -

> couldn't

> > get out of bed -

> > it was horrible. No I don't need to UP my P. I

> > need to up my E if

> > anything. My estradiol is 54 so it's not going to

> > hurt me to use

> > more. I'll just get FATTER!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Am I crazy? This happened when I

> > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days

> > (May) and since

> > > then, it

> > > > happens every time.

> > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But

> > that P cream to me

> > is

> > > > poison. I know we have been through the whole

> P

> > overdosing

> > thing

> > > yes,

> > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me!

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL

> > overloaded with

> > P...we

> > > all went thru the thing where, if we applied

> even

> > a tiny amount of

> > P

> > > we felt like hell again and the troublesome

> > symptoms returned

> > almost

> > > immediately. I think you will have problems

> with

> > vaginal gel or

> > ANY

> > > P until you get more of it out of your system.

> One

> > way we found

> > was

> > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other

> > than that, you

> > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the

> crinone

> > works for

> > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any

> > better. It is good to

> > > have then when you do become able to use P

> again.

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

WOW, ....you just posted one hell of a good

truth!!!!

Wiley WAS PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENSE!

Most doctors (if not all) simply do not have the

time/energy to look into every " Pop-Psyche HRT " out

there, much less monitor their patients who are,

essentially, self-administrating!!! They barely have

time to get some family-down-time for themselves!!

Wiley is, in all probablity, suffering from more than

a bit of a personality disorder. All of her behaviors

are sounding quite familiar to this Psychology major.

The subversive double-speak, blaming and guilting,

pretzel-dancing, and obtrusive and secretive

behaviors, while simultaneously avoiding taking

ownership, are all quite classic, and which would be

obvious to any psych practicioner.

Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > LOL LOL !!

> >

> > There is a story about the HEE HAW CLINIC (named

> after

> > the TV sitcom of the same name..) wherein the

> patient

> > comes in for his clinic appointment, and, raising

> his

> > arm, says to the doctor... " Doc, it hurts when I do

> > this.. "

> > And the doctor knocks his arm down and retorts,

> " Well,

> > then...STOP DOING THAT!! "

> >

> > Kinda amazing that many of us, while still getting

> > nasty side effects that are as those of high P

> levels

> > of PMS and 3rd trimester of pregnancy, are STILL

> > continuing to bathe ourselves in creams of high P.

> > Hello??? HEE HAW Carolyn

> >

>

>

> I am a person who has always done well on

> progesterone cream. So I

> maintain the positiion that it is not the

> transdermal P - at least

> not for me - that made me ill - it was the HIGH

> DOSES. Now - I know

> there are women who don't do well on P at all, but

> that is not me.

>

>

> Wiley would not publicly answer questions...after

> the meetings, from

> what I understand, she used to take women one by one

> privately and

> say " use more E, use more P, use cortef " etc. When

> asked questions

> on the boards, she stopped coming online...didn't

> want anything in

> writing. She wanted to speak by phone to women with

> questions

> (probably still dose)...this way, there were no

> witnesses that she

> was actually telling women to use more E, use more

> P, in other words,

> practicing medicine without a license.

>

> When asked publicly WHY a woman was having dreadful

> symptoms, Susie

> said " I have ALWAYS told women to see their doctors

> - do this under a

> doctor's care!! HOW STUPID to keep applying more and

> more without a

> dotor telling you to do this!! If you are sick, it

> is because you did

> not go to your doctor and instead decided to self

> treat and to play

> with your doses...ANY diversion from the Wiley

> protocol dosing

> schedule in the book or given by the pharmacy

> instruction is NOT the

> WP!! if you get sick, it is because you did not

> follow the protocol.

> if you aren't following the protocol, I have no idea

> what you are

> doing!! " She and Caren kept saying that no wonder

> women were sick -

> they WERE playing with their doses and not

> consulting a doctor...so

> she has no comment on whatever it is they are doing.

> YET NO DOCTOR

> UNDERSTOOD IT....at least not here in Chicago, or

> out East, in NY,

> and the East coast. They simply prescribed it

> because Susie talked

> to them on the phone, there was a website/ " real-time

> support group "

> (the RL, as Neil put it) and they were confident we

> would have

> support and as time went on they too, busy as they

> are in their

> practices would understand it and see how their

> patients were faring

> on it.

>

> My doc simply capitulated after my many months of

> eating his heart

> out. HE took months befofe prescribing it to

> understand it and he

> warned me that it wasn't a good idea in his mind,

> because it didn't

> make sense to him - he called Dr. Taguchi to confer

> with her about

> it...YES - this can also get doctors into trouble,

> because they are

> not supposed to prescribe something they do not

> understand, something

> which is not " standard of care " ....She had EVERYONE

> by the short

> hairs.

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Madeleen. Yes, I am using Bill's stuff but it doesn't seem to be going in for whatever reason. And if I can get something else to work that costs less (anything would be WAY less) I will be happy.

I just chatted with a NP and she is ordering an FSH & LH test for me. She uses that to see what the brain is needing. We will see.

Hey, I have P cream if anyone wants it!!!!

Liz

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of MadeleenSent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:40 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: RE: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

Right Liz, 1mg/drop! Remember you have to take it more often during the day to keep the levels up! That is the part I had trouble with, because I would forget and then...trouble! So I wear a gel patch now and add OO when needed. But my patch is an 8mg Estraderm patch which lasts me for 2 days. So I figure I am getting 4mg of E a day plus a little more when needed with either OO/E or Oestrogel!

Just to check in with you, I thought you were using Bill Altmeier's cream? which should work equally as well. At least that is what Laurel found. The good part is OO/E is much cheaper!

Madeleenbeth wrote:

Okay, I think I"m going to try OO. I will see if the NP will make me some in organic OO at 1mg per drop. Yes?

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of MadeleenSent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:13 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: RE: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

Remember, I got a reading of 671 on olive oil E!!!!!! when doing WP. Madeleenbeth wrote:

I'm beginning to think cream as the numbers hardly ever went up on anyone's cream. Once in a while, I would get something in 200 or 330 even 1 time 400 but never consistent.

Liz V.

Cream, or just poor transdermal absorption.

Val

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

I can't understand why you've never gone off P altogether at least for 2-4 weeks, to "get sober" from P-overload, and why you have also rejected a trial of natural, minimal amounts Progesterone-regulating/stimulating herbals like Chasteberry - right ?

Love,

Charlotte

Re: Re: Not So "Good Morning" (P problems again)

...be sure to have your doc balance that amount ofE with the P (or actually to balance the E with theamount of P you are taking and that amount should notgive you a lot of negative side effects. That willmean that the amount of P you are taking, and the FORMOF DELIVERY you are taking it in, is right for you.Then your doc will balance it with E.)It is WAY too dangerous to "guess" what amounts of Eto be taking, and in what ratio balance with P. Thatshould always be done with together with your doctor!!Good Luck - well, no, it is not luck...it should begood medical practice in the proofing!!:)Carolyn--- wrote:> Well now I think I'm going to go up to 4 mg a day of> E. See how that > works. The thing that gets me is WHY is there> nothing to PROVE that > we have this overload in us? Yes this is the same> old problem that > Laurel and all of you were tackling months ago. I> just thought I'd > be fine because I only did 1 and 1/2 months of> Wiley. So I imagine > it's worse for the women who did more months! Okay> I'll keep you > posted. > > > > > > > > Am I crazy? This happened when I > > > applied the Wiley P cream during my Wiley days> (May) and since > > then, it > > > happens every time. > > > I guess my next step is the Crinone gel. But> that P cream to me > is > > > poison. I know we have been through the whole P> overdosing > thing > > yes, > > > but apparently, it is STILL happening to me! > > > > > > > > > > To me, what this means is that you are STILL> overloaded with > P...we > > all went thru the thing where, if we applied even> a tiny amount of > P > > we felt like hell again and the troublesome> symptoms returned > almost > > immediately. I think you will have problems with> vaginal gel or > ANY > > P until you get more of it out of your system. One> way we found > was > > to use enough E to mobilize/oppose the P, other> than that, you > > obviously still can't use any. I HOPE the crinone> works for > > you...but honestly, I doubt it will work any> better. It is good to > > have then when you do become able to use P again.> > > > I came to the conclusion that we were NOT hurting> ourselves while > > using E and no P until our P levels normalized> again - obviously > you > > sill have it lurking in you. I am sorry to hear> this . It is > > HELL. I can only think that anyone else getting> off the WP is > also > > going to go thru months of hell trying to get back> to where we > began > > before we ever did it. It is rough stuff. And,> unfortunately, > there > > will be bleeding while you aren't using the P. It> has happened to > > every one of us with a uterus...so expect it for a> while and try > to > > stay strong!! Keep us posted, .> > > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Well, ...it was damn well worth the saying!!

Ya know...diatrabes are good Rx! LOL:)Carolyn

--- astrodiana wrote:

>

> > WOW, ....you just posted one hell of a good

> > truth!!!!

> >

> > Wiley WAS PRACTICING MEDICINE WITHOUT A LICENSE!

>

>

> hee hee...I do my best stream-of-consciousness

> posting (in order to

> waste time)when I really SHOULD BE walking out the

> door...now and then

> I feel the need to launch a diatribe just to clear

> my mind No real

> point to it, other than I felt like I wanted to say

> it

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________