Re: Newbie with questions/observations

[Guest guest]

You do not have to use high doses to cycle in a rhythm. I cycle with hormones and use low doses. Only Wiley's protocol requires the high doses.

According to research (previously posted) 32% of women using exogenous estrogen and topical progesterone will develop uterine hyperplasia. While topical progesterone may produce high saliva test values, it is not necessarily reaching the uterus. Additionally, some women here have found that topical progesterone builds up in the fat tissues and takes an extended amount of time to be released. Progesterone is an anti-estrogen. If you are still having normal periods, you don't need any progesterone.

I used sublingual tri-est for an extended period of time and never got any estrogen from it. My tests showed no estradiol.

Compounded hormones rarely, if ever, have any scientific testing behind them. The pharmacist who gave me the sublingual tri-est had no scientific data to support what he was dispensing.

I use estriol cream on my face. Estriol in a cream form is not absorbed systemically except through mucus membranes.

Your experience of using estrogen to stop spotting is in line with my experience. Unexplained bleeding should be checked out. Women on estrogen should probably get a yearly vaginal ultrasound.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of acaciamesquite

I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wantedto do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading throughmany posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling issomething that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses. Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book "Screaming tobe Heard" but I have not received it yet. I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that wasmaking it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bumpsensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in mymouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible "normal" resulton my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E32 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) threetimes a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month topicaland vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that Ishould be getting in the mail soon.My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including thedepression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. Mymajor problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the weekbefore TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from theprogesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have beenmanipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without goodresults (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewherethat spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so Iincreased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting. This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting tosee if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triestseems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month itseems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my doseto keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest Ithought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole. After using several triest doses over the course of the day I feltlike myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I amvery concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms(like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I bedosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms? Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is abetter way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesteronedose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is? This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (splitbetween topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginalfor pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11days and see how that works for me.I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help preventwrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone ontheir facial skin for wrinkles?My doctor recommended that I add Indole-3-Carbinol 400mg/day on anempty stomach. Before I started this supplement I used to havetrouble with breast tenderness. Since I started it my breasttenderness went away and has not come back. Does anyone here takeIndole-3-Carbinol?For my receding gums I have been rubbing a small amount of my trieston my gums in the mornings. I usually just swish it around and spitit out after 10 minutes. I believe that my gum recession at my frontlower teeth has improved. I talked to my hygienist about it and shesaid that gums do not grow back. She said that I could have swellingor puffiness in my gums but that is it. Unfortunately I did not takea before and after picture. I discussed this with my doctor and hesaid that it is OK to continue to do what I am doing for my gums andthat he does not know of any study disproving my theory that my gumsare improving with my topical estrogen. Do any of you have gumrecession and have you tried topical estrogen on your gum tissue?My next appointment with my hormone doctor is in April. He is not thecontrolling type and lets me try most anything that I want. He didnot give me any helpful advice about controlling the spotting and Idid not talk to him about using a higher estrogen dose to keep theskin symptoms completely away.

..

[Guest guest]

Welcome Kathy,

I found triest and biest too weak. Actually, the estriol component makes me sleepy. Also, from being on meno lists, I've found most women tend to need to increase their estrogen as they get used to it.

Some people, especially at low doses, need to take it two or three times a day.

As far as breast tenderness goes, iodine deficiency seems to be the prime culprit there if you check the research on www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine It appears that iodine "reorganizes" the estrogen receptors in the breasts.

And yes, fershure, many of us use estradiol in olive oil on our faces. I never use it anywhere else. It gets absorbed into the bloodstream to alleviate meno symptoms fine.

I know I've only addressed a few of your concerns but I'm sure the others will have more to say.

Lynne

Hi,I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wantedto do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading throughmany posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling issomething that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses. Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book "Screaming tobe Heard" but I have not received it yet. I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that wasmaking it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bumpsensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in mymouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible "normal" resulton my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E32 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) threetimes a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month topicaland vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that Ishould be getting in the mail soon.My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including thedepression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. Mymajor problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the weekbefore TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from theprogesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have beenmanipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without goodresults (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewherethat spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so Iincreased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting. This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting tosee if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triestseems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month itseems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my doseto keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest Ithought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole. After using several triest doses over the course of the day I feltlike myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I amvery concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms(like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I bedosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms? Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is abetter way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesteronedose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is? This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (splitbetween topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginalfor pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11days and see how that works for me.I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help preventwrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone ontheir facial skin for wrinkles?

[Guest guest]

Hi Val,

Thank you for the reply. Before I started on the NHRT I used over the

counter progesterone cream per Dr. Lee's menopause & pre-menopause

books for about 1.5 years. I was having trouble with premenstrual

fluid retention, pms, brain fog around my period, and very heavy

periods. I found that the low dose progesterone cream eliminated my

fluid retention and most of my pms symptoms except I continued to have

intermittent sore breasts. My brain fog improved and my heavy periods

improved greatly--still heavy but manageable. I got to a certain

point though when all of a sudden I started having severe low estrogen

symptoms. Since I added the triest and 100mg/ml progesterone my heavy

menstrual bleeding is now what I would consider normal (more like what

I had in my 20s). I would be hesitant to discontinue my progesterone

because I would be afraid that my fluid retention and heavy bleeding

would come back.

What makes you say that women with normal periods do not need

progesterone? Is there a book or a study that supports that idea? It

would be great to skip the progesterone because I do not feel as good

wile taking progesterone as I do when I am off it. I do not believe

that I have ovulated for quite some time though so I do not believe

that I am making any of my own progesterone anymore. Maybe a

non-ovulatory cycle is not considered normal.

Is there any information available that I could read to learn how to

cycle my hormones using low doses? How did you learn how to do it?

If topical progesterone is problematic because it builds up in the fat

tissue, what is the best way to take it? I tried oral progesterone

for a short wile per advice of my doctor and I found that I had bad

spotting with it so I switched back to topical + vaginal. It seems

that maybe vaginal progesterone may be the best route for reaching the

uterus. My trial and error over the past few months seems to indicate

that vaginal progesterone works better for me than oral or topical. It

was not until last month when I tried vaginal progesterone twice a day

for 14 days did I have a cycle without spotting (but I also increased

my estrogen at the same time so the lack of spotting may be due more

to the estrogen than the progesterone). Also, I was having problems

with short cycles. I was assuming that the progesterone was helping

me extend my cycles to 28 days. Maybe I am mistaken thinking that the

progesterone was extending my cycles. I have had to bump up my

progesterone dose on about day 23 otherwise my period would start.

Bumping up the dose always seemed to help get me closer to 28 days.

I was not aware of the hyperplasia problem with estrogen and topical

progesterone and the need for vaginal ultrasounds. Dr. Reiss did

mention vaginal ultrasounds in his book though. Thank you for that

information.

I just received my biest in the mail and it is not 50/50 like I spoke

to my doctor about. It is E2 0.2/E3 0.8 mg/gm. It is so frustrating

not to get what I asked for. Now I have to decide if I want to try

again with my doctor or just order estradial from overseas.

Thanks for your help.

Kathy

>

> You do not have to use high doses to cycle in a rhythm. I cycle with

> hormones and use low doses. Only Wiley's protocol requires the high

doses.

>

> According to research (previously posted) 32% of women using exogenous

> estrogen and topical progesterone will develop uterine hyperplasia.

While

> topical progesterone may produce high saliva test values, it is not

> necessarily reaching the uterus. Additionally, some women here have

found

> that topical progesterone builds up in the fat tissues and takes an

extended

> amount of time to be released. Progesterone is an anti-estrogen.

If you

> are still having normal periods, you don't need any progesterone.

>

> I used sublingual tri-est for an extended period of time and never

got any

> estrogen from it. My tests showed no estradiol.

>

> Compounded hormones rarely, if ever, have any scientific testing behind

> them. The pharmacist who gave me the sublingual tri-est had no

scientific

> data to support what he was dispensing.

>

> I use estriol cream on my face. Estriol in a cream form is not absorbed

> systemically except through mucus membranes.

>

> Your experience of using estrogen to stop spotting is in line with my

> experience. Unexplained bleeding should be checked out. Women on

estrogen

> should probably get a yearly vaginal ultrasound.

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of acaciamesquite

> I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wanted

> to do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading through

> many posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling is

> something that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses.

> Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book " Screaming to

> be Heard " but I have not received it yet.

>

> I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.

> Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.

> My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that was

> making it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bump

> sensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in my

> mouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible " normal " result

> on my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E3

> 2 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) three

> times a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month

topical

> and vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,

> pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that I

> should be getting in the mail soon.

>

> My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including the

> depression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. My

> major problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the week

> before TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from the

> progesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have been

> manipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without good

> results (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewhere

> that spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so I

> increased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting.

> This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting to

> see if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triest

> seems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).

> I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month it

> seems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my dose

> to keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest I

> thought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.

> That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole.

> After using several triest doses over the course of the day I felt

> like myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I am

> very concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.

>

> With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms

> (like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I be

> dosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms?

> Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is a

> better way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesterone

> dose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is?

> This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (split

> between topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginal

> for pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11

> days and see how that works for me.

>

> I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help prevent

> wrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone on

> their facial skin for wrinkles?

>

> My doctor recommended that I add Indole-3-Carbinol 400mg/day on an

> empty stomach. Before I started this supplement I used to have

> trouble with breast tenderness. Since I started it my breast

> tenderness went away and has not come back. Does anyone here take

> Indole-3-Carbinol?

>

> For my receding gums I have been rubbing a small amount of my triest

> on my gums in the mornings. I usually just swish it around and spit

> it out after 10 minutes. I believe that my gum recession at my front

> lower teeth has improved. I talked to my hygienist about it and she

> said that gums do not grow back. She said that I could have swelling

> or puffiness in my gums but that is it. Unfortunately I did not take

> a before and after picture. I discussed this with my doctor and he

> said that it is OK to continue to do what I am doing for my gums and

> that he does not know of any study disproving my theory that my gums

> are improving with my topical estrogen. Do any of you have gum

> recession and have you tried topical estrogen on your gum tissue?

>

> My next appointment with my hormone doctor is in April. He is not the

> controlling type and lets me try most anything that I want. He did

> not give me any helpful advice about controlling the spotting and I

> did not talk to him about using a higher estrogen dose to keep the

> skin symptoms completely away.

>

>

> .

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

Read your post and I wanted to ask you whether your Dr has done blood tests to

see

where you are. I think taking them now would not say alot because you are

supplementing

with so many hormones. I think it would be hard to say what causes certain side

effects.But as to bone loss I think I can say from my experience that Vit

D/calcium need to

be tested and from the Dr I see the endorcrine system is very tied into this

because

without good amounts of calcium the ovaries stop working properly. Without Vit D

the

body does not absorb calcium. If there is any malabsorbtion issue with you or

even as we

age this may be hard to acheive with diet alone.

I am 45 and currently use a low dose Vivelle patch only and fairly large amounts

of Vit D

and calcium. Just got my period on day 28 and have been regular for 5 months. In

the

beginning of this the first few months were difficult and the Dr did say it

might get worse

before it gets better. My wrists and knees hurt a little and my acne got worse

and I had

really severe cramps with my period (like when I was a teenager). I feel now

that it was the

ovaries starting to get what they need and now no real cramps and skin is better

and hair

is much better. I also think that with gum and teeth issues that may be a sign

that things

are not in working order with your hormones or your calcium/Vit D levels.

Karin

>

> Hi,

>

> I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wanted

> to do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading through

> many posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling is

> something that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses.

> Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book " Screaming to

> be Heard " but I have not received it yet.

>

> I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.

> Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.

> My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that was

> making it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bump

> sensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in my

> mouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible " normal " result

> on my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E3

> 2 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) three

> times a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month topical

> and vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,

> pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that I

> should be getting in the mail soon.

>

> My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including the

> depression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. My

> major problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the week

> before TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from the

> progesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have been

> manipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without good

> results (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewhere

> that spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so I

> increased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting.

> This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting to

> see if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triest

> seems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).

> I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month it

> seems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my dose

> to keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest I

> thought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.

> That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole.

> After using several triest doses over the course of the day I felt

> like myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I am

> very concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.

>

> With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms

> (like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I be

> dosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms?

> Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is a

> better way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesterone

> dose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is?

> This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (split

> between topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginal

> for pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11

> days and see how that works for me.

>

> I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help prevent

> wrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone on

> their facial skin for wrinkles?

>

> My doctor recommended that I add Indole-3-Carbinol 400mg/day on an

> empty stomach. Before I started this supplement I used to have

> trouble with breast tenderness. Since I started it my breast

> tenderness went away and has not come back. Does anyone here take

> Indole-3-Carbinol?

>

> For my receding gums I have been rubbing a small amount of my triest

> on my gums in the mornings. I usually just swish it around and spit

> it out after 10 minutes. I believe that my gum recession at my front

> lower teeth has improved. I talked to my hygienist about it and she

> said that gums do not grow back. She said that I could have swelling

> or puffiness in my gums but that is it. Unfortunately I did not take

> a before and after picture. I discussed this with my doctor and he

> said that it is OK to continue to do what I am doing for my gums and

> that he does not know of any study disproving my theory that my gums

> are improving with my topical estrogen. Do any of you have gum

> recession and have you tried topical estrogen on your gum tissue?

>

> My next appointment with my hormone doctor is in April. He is not the

> controlling type and lets me try most anything that I want. He did

> not give me any helpful advice about controlling the spotting and I

> did not talk to him about using a higher estrogen dose to keep the

> skin symptoms completely away.

>

> Kathy

>

[Guest guest]

Karin,

My doctor did initial blood tests on 3/27/06:

Progesterone 0.8 ng/ml (I think this was day 8)

Estradiol 77 pg/ml

DHEA – S04 188 ug/dl

Testosterone, Total (female) less than 20

TSH 0.81 ulU/ml

Free T3 2.9 pg/ml

Free T4 1.43 ng/dl

I was taking 5-10mg DHEA and 50 mg Pregnenolone at that time plus over

the counter topical progesterone during the second ½ of my cycle. At

my last visit he thought that I was doing well and did not need blood

testing again until my next visit in the spring. The interesting

thing is that since my MD started me on my other hormones (including

testosterone and increased progesterone) my acne has improved greatly

and my left temple area has new hair growth. If I try to increase my

DHEA I do get acne though. I was progressively increasing my

testosterone and it seemed that 4mg may have given me a little acne

but since reducing back to 3mg/day my acne is gone.

My difficulty now seems to be that I am needing more estrogen than I

did at my last MD visit. I am considering going back to see him to

ask to be switched to plain estradiol rather than the biest which

seems to be too weak just like the triest is. I have come to the

conclusion that I should not be getting my low estrogen symptoms

during the day and I need to dose so that I do not get the low

estrogen symptoms. I have increased my dose over the past several

days but now I have breast awareness which I do not like. They are

not sore or too full I am just " aware " of them and it is bothering me.

Regarding the calcium. I believe that I may have been having

difficulty absorbing my calcium for a long time because I recently

discovered that I am gluten intolerant. One of the side effects of

gluten intolerance is impaired calcium absorption and osteoporosis.

My latest absorption test indicated that I did not have any

malabsorption problems but I believe that prior to eliminating gluten

from my diet, malabsorption may have effected my mineral absorption

and iron absorption because I have had iron deficiency anemia in the

past plus I used to need extra calcium/magnesium and or potassium to

keep my palpitations away. The difficulty that I have with

calcium/magnesium at this time is that if I take the recommended daily

amount I get diarrhea. Right now I am taking 500mg Calcium + 250

Magnesium at bedtime plus 1000 IU Vit D3. My multi (Synergy Basic

version 2 from Vitacost) also has 700 IUs in it as well. I usually

eat dairy every day so I am also getting some extra calcium in my

diet. I have been trying to incorporate an extra 250 mg of calcium +

150 magnesium during the daytime recently. I am hoping that now that

I have gotten my GI problems under control, I can tolerate more

calcium/magnesium. The amount of calcium + magnesium necessary is

very confusing to me so I have been trying to follow the

recommendations by Dr. Reiss in his hormone book; it seems that he

does not believe that we need as much calcium as others do. One thing

that I am confused about is when should I take my calcium? I have

heard that bedtime is the best time but I have also heard that you

should split it up during the day. I also take iron because of my

previous anemia and low iron levels so I try to be careful not to take

the iron at the same time as the calcium, plus when I also take

strontium I have to make sure that I do not take it with the calcium.

Are you adding strontium to help with bone building as well? I have

strontium in my pantry that I tried when I was having gut issues from

the gluten intolerance but did not tolerate. Since my gut has healed,

I should probably try to reincorporate it into my supplement plan.

How much calcium do you take/day and at what time during the day? Do

you take magnesium with the calcium? What is your dose of Vit D?

Do you take progesterone with you Vivelle patch?

Thanks for you help.

Kathy

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wanted

> > to do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading through

> > many posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling is

> > something that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses.

> > Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book " Screaming to

> > be Heard " but I have not received it yet.

> >

> > I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.

> > Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.

> > My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that was

> > making it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bump

> > sensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in my

> > mouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible " normal " result

> > on my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E3

> > 2 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) three

> > times a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month

topical

> > and vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,

> > pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that I

> > should be getting in the mail soon.

> >

> > My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including the

> > depression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. My

> > major problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the week

> > before TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from the

> > progesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have been

> > manipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without good

> > results (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewhere

> > that spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so I

> > increased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting.

> > This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting to

> > see if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triest

> > seems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).

> > I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month it

> > seems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my dose

> > to keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest I

> > thought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.

> > That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole.

> > After using several triest doses over the course of the day I felt

> > like myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I am

> > very concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.

> >

> > With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms

> > (like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I be

> > dosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms?

> > Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is a

> > better way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesterone

> > dose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is?

> > This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (split

> > between topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginal

> > for pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11

> > days and see how that works for me.

> >

> > I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help prevent

> > wrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone on

> > their facial skin for wrinkles?

> >

> > My doctor recommended that I add Indole-3-Carbinol 400mg/day on an

> > empty stomach. Before I started this supplement I used to have

> > trouble with breast tenderness. Since I started it my breast

> > tenderness went away and has not come back. Does anyone here take

> > Indole-3-Carbinol?

> >

> > For my receding gums I have been rubbing a small amount of my triest

> > on my gums in the mornings. I usually just swish it around and spit

> > it out after 10 minutes. I believe that my gum recession at my front

> > lower teeth has improved. I talked to my hygienist about it and she

> > said that gums do not grow back. She said that I could have swelling

> > or puffiness in my gums but that is it. Unfortunately I did not take

> > a before and after picture. I discussed this with my doctor and he

> > said that it is OK to continue to do what I am doing for my gums and

> > that he does not know of any study disproving my theory that my gums

> > are improving with my topical estrogen. Do any of you have gum

> > recession and have you tried topical estrogen on your gum tissue?

> >

> > My next appointment with my hormone doctor is in April. He is not the

> > controlling type and lets me try most anything that I want. He did

> > not give me any helpful advice about controlling the spotting and I

> > did not talk to him about using a higher estrogen dose to keep the

> > skin symptoms completely away.

> >

> > Kathy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I also have Celiac and Hashi and because of the Celiac the ovaries did not work

properly.

My FSH and LH are low in the 5's and because of this at age 45 I felt and the Dr

felt that

they would work again when gettting my calcium and Vit D in line with what it

should be.

I am a complete gluten free diet (got diag at age 42) and now am using only

thyroid meds

and small amount of E. I don't know where you might be regarding menopause but

this

did allow my body to do its thing without alot of outside supplementation. I

think it is

really hard to supplement hormones when the ovaries might still be active

because you

can't figure out what exactly is going on even w/blood tests. Someday I may have

to add in

some T and more E but for now I hope the ovaries will continue for a few more

yrs.

Karin

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wanted

> > > to do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading through

> > > many posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling is

> > > something that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses.

> > > Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book " Screaming to

> > > be Heard " but I have not received it yet.

> > >

> > > I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.

> > > Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.

> > > My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that was

> > > making it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bump

> > > sensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in my

> > > mouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible " normal " result

> > > on my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E3

> > > 2 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) three

> > > times a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month

> topical

> > > and vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,

> > > pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that I

> > > should be getting in the mail soon.

> > >

> > > My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including the

> > > depression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. My

> > > major problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the week

> > > before TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from the

> > > progesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have been

> > > manipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without good

> > > results (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewhere

> > > that spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so I

> > > increased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting.

> > > This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting to

> > > see if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triest

> > > seems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).

> > > I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month it

> > > seems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my dose

> > > to keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest I

> > > thought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.

> > > That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole.

> > > After using several triest doses over the course of the day I felt

> > > like myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I am

> > > very concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.

> > >

> > > With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms

> > > (like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I be

> > > dosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms?

> > > Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is a

> > > better way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesterone

> > > dose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is?

> > > This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (split

> > > between topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginal

> > > for pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11

> > > days and see how that works for me.

> > >

> > > I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help prevent

> > > wrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone on

> > > their facial skin for wrinkles?

> > >

> > > My doctor recommended that I add Indole-3-Carbinol 400mg/day on an

> > > empty stomach. Before I started this supplement I used to have

> > > trouble with breast tenderness. Since I started it my breast

> > > tenderness went away and has not come back. Does anyone here take

> > > Indole-3-Carbinol?

> > >

> > > For my receding gums I have been rubbing a small amount of my triest

> > > on my gums in the mornings. I usually just swish it around and spit

> > > it out after 10 minutes. I believe that my gum recession at my front

> > > lower teeth has improved. I talked to my hygienist about it and she

> > > said that gums do not grow back. She said that I could have swelling

> > > or puffiness in my gums but that is it. Unfortunately I did not take

> > > a before and after picture. I discussed this with my doctor and he

> > > said that it is OK to continue to do what I am doing for my gums and

> > > that he does not know of any study disproving my theory that my gums

> > > are improving with my topical estrogen. Do any of you have gum

> > > recession and have you tried topical estrogen on your gum tissue?

> > >

> > > My next appointment with my hormone doctor is in April. He is not the

> > > controlling type and lets me try most anything that I want. He did

> > > not give me any helpful advice about controlling the spotting and I

> > > did not talk to him about using a higher estrogen dose to keep the

> > > skin symptoms completely away.

> > >

> > > Kathy

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have been heavily involved in a project and apologize for not responding earlier to your message.

I'll insert text in color, below.

Val>> Hi Val,> > Thank you for the reply. Before I started on the NHRT I used over the> counter progesterone cream per Dr. Lee's menopause & pre-menopause> books for about 1.5 years.

Dr. Lee's theories have never been able to be duplicated in scientific research. His early books were self-published. Having a book published means little. He never published in a peer-reviewed setting. He does cite a Lancet "article" but that was just a letter to the editor.

I was having trouble with premenstrual> fluid retention, pms, brain fog around my period, and very heavy> periods. I found that the low dose progesterone cream eliminated my> fluid retention and most of my pms symptoms except I continued to have> intermittent sore breasts. My brain fog improved and my heavy periods> improved greatly--still heavy but manageable.

There is research that suggests that progesterone may help with vaso-motor symptoms.

I got to a certain> point though when all of a sudden I started having severe low estrogen> symptoms. Since I added the triest and 100mg/ml progesterone my heavy> menstrual bleeding is now what I would consider normal (more like what> I had in my 20s). I would be hesitant to discontinue my progesterone> because I would be afraid that my fluid retention and heavy bleeding> would come back. > > What makes you say that women with normal periods do not need> progesterone?

If you are having normal periods, that means you have enough progesterone to cause a shed.

It > would be great to skip the progesterone because I do not feel as good> wile taking progesterone as I do when I am off it.

Progesterone is an anti-estrogen. That probably explains why you do not feel as good while taking it.

I do not believe> that I have ovulated for quite some time though so I do not believe> that I am making any of my own progesterone anymore.

My understanding is that when menopause arrives, it means your ovaries have stopped producing estrogen. Some progesterone production continues for up to 10 years after menopause because it is also produced by the adrenals. That information is from Dr. Larrian Gillespie. She has written some good books on hormones and has a private consult list. http://www.hormonediva.com She is a retired professor of urogynecology at UCLA.

Maybe a> non-ovulatory cycle is not considered normal.> > Is there any information available that I could read to learn how to> cycle my hormones using low doses? How did you learn how to do it?

I belong to Dr. Gillespie's private list. She has been a Godsend for me. I used Dr. Lee's progesterone protocol for two miserable years, and lost some bone mass during that time. Research indicates that progesterone is neither positive nor negative for bone formation. You have to be careful of what lists you read and what people you listen to. Many of the hormone lists are run by people peddling their progesterone cream. Others are run by people who read Dr. Lee and do not have the ability to discern correct from incorrect; solid research vs. opinion.> > If topical progesterone is problematic because it builds up in the fat> tissue, what is the best way to take it? I tried oral progesterone> for a short wile per advice of my doctor and I found that I had bad> spotting with it so I switched back to topical + vaginal.

The oral dose may have been excessive for the amount of estrogen you were getting.

It seems> that maybe vaginal progesterone may be the best route for reaching the> uterus.

I believe that might be true. That is Dr. Gillespie's preferred delivery system. There is a wealth of information on http://www.rhythmicliving.com

My trial and error over the past few months seems to indicate> that vaginal progesterone works better for me than oral or topical. It> was not until last month when I tried vaginal progesterone twice a day> for 14 days did I have a cycle without spotting (but I also increased> my estrogen at the same time so the lack of spotting may be due more> to the estrogen than the progesterone). Also, I was having problems> with short cycles. I was assuming that the progesterone was helping> me extend my cycles to 28 days. Maybe I am mistaken thinking that the> progesterone was extending my cycles.

Excess progesterone relative to estrogen always caused spotting/bleeding for me.

> I was not aware of the hyperplasia problem with estrogen and topical> progesterone and the need for vaginal ultrasounds.

There is research to support that. I have previously posted it but I understand you would have a difficult time finding it among the messages. You might go to Pub-Med and do some searches.> > I just received my biest in the mail and it is not 50/50 like I spoke> to my doctor about. It is E2 0.2/E3 0.8 mg/gm. It is so frustrating> not to get what I asked for. Now

Dr. Gillespie contends that estriol is the most carcinogenic form of estrogen because of the pathway through which it metabolizes, but I can't remember her citations. Estradiol converts to estriol and estrone. There is no need to take any estriol.

I have to decide if I want to try> again with my doctor or just order estradial from overseas.

I use estradiol gel (Estrogel). I use it once a day and it does fine for me. I take oral Prometrium 200 mg for 10 days/month.

[Guest guest]

I would be tempted, if I were you, just to take a birth control pill until

actual menopause

occurs. It is so hard to deal with fluctuating hormone levels right before

menopause. I

actually did take the pill from ages 46 to 50 in order to prevent another

ovarian cyst, as I

had to had one ovary removed at 46. When I quit the pill at 50, instant

menopause. Of

course, the pill is not natural, so many are against it.

I would have to disagree with Val that compounded hormones have no science

behind

them. The compounders buy their estradiol from the same place the drug

manufacturers

do, and the FDA does approve estradiol gel and cream made by drug manufacturers,

so

there is science to support that estradiol does work and is at least as safe as

horse

estrogen! Now, it is true that compounders may use different methods and

different inert

ingredients and thus different batches from different compounders may not be

equivalent

to each other. Also, there is some question whether estrone and estriol are

really needed. I

believed in Tri-est for 10 years, but then I read that women's bodies make

estrone and

estriol out of estradiol, so those two are not needed. I switched to

all-estradiol, which is

much cheaper since I no longer buy it from compounders, and now I no longer have

the

breast tenderness. I was not able to get my estrogen level up high enough to

relieve my

symptoms (such as migraine) with the Tri-est or Bi-est until I eliminated the

estriol. I had

heard that estriol had little effect on the breasts; however, it is the estrogen

which

increases greatly in pregnancy, and sore breasts are one of the first signs of

pregnancy.

If you feel like you are getting symptoms as your cream wears off, you should

try dividing

your daily dose in two. This will mean using more cream at a time. Try changing

the

location of where you put it, and be sure not to bathe or wash your hands for a

couple of

hours afterwards. I don't think you should put your dose on your face, as I read

that you

get better absorption where there are hair follicles, like the thighs and calves

(but not the

shins which have poor blood supply). If you want to try low-dose estriol cream

for your

face for wrinkles, you could. I tried it briefly, but got pimples from the

cream. One thing

that will plump up your facial skin is evening primrose oil capsules. I see a

noticeable

difference in fine lines within a couple of hours, and the effect goes away

within a day of

quitting it, so I take it twice a day. It's like putting a flower in water. Take

the flower out of

water and it quickly wilts.

If your estrogen cream doesn't work well, try the gel or the patch or even oral.

But

sublingual peaks in an hour and then rapidly drops, so I wouldn't recommend that

type at

all. Of course, you might just need a little bit more estrogen instead of a

different form.

Since progesterone is an anti-estrogen, you'll need to increase your estrogen

dose a little

during the time you are on it. If you are still having periods, though, I

wouldn't take it at

all, especially not the dermal kind which builds up in your skin. It can also

build up applied

to the vagina. I took only one course of Prochieve vaginal progesterone in the

lowest dose

a year ago, and I still have symptoms of progesterone overdose.

I had gum recession after being in braces for 3 years at the age of 46. My gums

have never

grown back. Gums can reattach to the tooth root, but if they have receded, a gum

specialist told me they cannot grow taller. I have taken indole-3-carbinol for

years with no

effect on my gums or breasts. I do find that sore gums are helped by CoQ10. If

you tend to

get mouth or gum ulcers, evening primrose oil can cure them. I found that in the

dental/

medical literature online, tried it, and it worked. I wish I could find

something that would

grow my gums back! I was devastated after my braces were removed to see that I

had little

triangular spaces between my lower teeth, something the orthodontist never

mentioned as

a possibility. I would worry about swallowing the chemicals in the estrogen

cream that you

put on your gums. Unless it is just olive oil or something harmless like that,

it's not meant

to be taken internally.

>

> Hi,

>

> I found this forum because I read S. Sommers newest book and I wanted

> to do some research on cycling my hormones. After reading through

> many posts on this forum I do not think that rhythmic cycling is

> something that I want to try because of the high progesterone doses.

> Per recommendations on this forum I ordered Vliet's book " Screaming to

> be Heard " but I have not received it yet.

>

> I have been on NHRT since May 06 after I read the hormone book by Dr.

> Reiss and decided that my estrogen was low. I will be 45 next month.

> My symptoms were depression especially around TOM, anxiety (that was

> making it difficult to drive my car), cold flashes (goose bump

> sensations that flow across my skin), migraines, bone loss in my

> mouth, gum recession, vaginal dryness, lowest possible " normal " result

> on my hip DEXA scan. Right now I am taking triest cream E1-E2 0.25/E3

> 2 (from Woman's International Pharmacy), 1/8 gram (or more) three

> times a day, progesterone lotion 50-100 mg 2X/day 14-17 days/month topical

> and vaginal, testosterone lotion 3mg/day, DHEA tabs 5 mg/day,

> pregnenolone 50mg/day. I have a new order in for biest 50/50 that I

> should be getting in the mail soon.

>

> My hormones have really helped many of my symptoms including the

> depression, anxiety, vaginal dryness, and possibly the migraines. My

> major problems have been with pre-period spotting (spotting the week

> before TOM), irritability and hunger/weight gain from the

> progesterone, and not knowing how much tri-est to use. I have been

> manipulating my progesterone to help decrease my spotting without good

> results (usually by increasing the dose). Last month I read somewhere

> that spotting may be a symptom of letting estrogen get too low so I

> increased my dose a little bit and it seemed to help the spotting.

> This month I plan to increase my estrogen at any sign of spotting to

> see if it helps again. One problem that I have is that my triest

> seems to wear off very quickly and I get skin symptoms (cold flashes).

> I am hoping that my new biest will last longer. In the past month it

> seems like I am needing more estrogen and I have had to double my dose

> to keep my symptoms away. One time since starting the triest I

> thought that I had some excess estrogen symptoms so I reduced my dose.

> That was a huge mistake. I fell into a horrible depression hole.

> After using several triest doses over the course of the day I felt

> like myself again. This experience was terrifying because now I am

> very concerned that running out of estrogen will incapacitate me.

>

> With my estrogen dosing, should I ever feel low estrogen symptoms

> (like my cold flashes) as my estrogen is wearing off or should I be

> dosing high enough so that as it wears off I do not feel symptoms?

> Also, do you think that increasing my estrogen dose pre-period is a

> better way to control spotting rather than increasing my progesterone

> dose? Does anyone know what a good typical dose of progesterone is?

> This month I plan to use 50mg twice a day for three days (split

> between topical on breasts and vaginal for am dose and 50mg vaginal

> for pm dose) followed by 100 mg twice a day (split as above) for 11

> days and see how that works for me.

>

> I am using my morning dose of triest on my face to help prevent

> wrinkles. Does anyone here use their estrogen or progesterone on

> their facial skin for wrinkles?

>

> My doctor recommended that I add Indole-3-Carbinol 400mg/day on an

> empty stomach. Before I started this supplement I used to have

> trouble with breast tenderness. Since I started it my breast

> tenderness went away and has not come back. Does anyone here take

> Indole-3-Carbinol?

>

> For my receding gums I have been rubbing a small amount of my triest

> on my gums in the mornings. I usually just swish it around and spit

> it out after 10 minutes. I believe that my gum recession at my front

> lower teeth has improved. I talked to my hygienist about it and she

> said that gums do not grow back. She said that I could have swelling

> or puffiness in my gums but that is it. Unfortunately I did not take

> a before and after picture. I discussed this with my doctor and he

> said that it is OK to continue to do what I am doing for my gums and

> that he does not know of any study disproving my theory that my gums

> are improving with my topical estrogen. Do any of you have gum

> recession and have you tried topical estrogen on your gum tissue?

>

> My next appointment with my hormone doctor is in April. He is not the

> controlling type and lets me try most anything that I want. He did

> not give me any helpful advice about controlling the spotting and I

> did not talk to him about using a higher estrogen dose to keep the

> skin symptoms completely away.

>

> Kathy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosette,

Thank you for the information. I do take 100mg of CoQ10, 2000mg of

Borage oil (rather than primrose oil) and 5grams of fish oil

concentrate along with my other supplements every day.

I was never able to find birth control pill that did not give me bad

side effects. With the last ones that I took I was so depressed that

I could barely get out of bed for three days. At that point we sent

my husband in for a vasectomy so I would not have to deal with birth

control pills anymore. When I look back at my various experiences

with birth control pills it is hard for me to believe that my husband

did not divorce me because of the horrible pms and rage that I used to

have wile on different pills.

I take my estrogen at least three times/day. Lately I have been

adding another dose or two to keep my symptoms away. I think my

estrogen requirement has increased lately. After all of my recent

reading I am sure that I need to switch to plain estradiol and toss

the biest/triest. I tried several different bases for my triest until

I found " natural whip cream " from Woman's International Pharmacy. It

has been the only base that I have tried that does not cause my face

to break out (when applied to the face). I think the ingredients

include shea butter, aloe, and possibly honey. I had the exact

ingredient list at one time. It smells like honey and is a very nice

cream that does not clog my pores. I have not tried plain olive oil

for a base but I am sure that I would prefer the natural whip cream

instead because it is much lighter than olive oil. I agree that

estrogen in olive oil would probably be better than using shea butter

in my mouth. I have plenty of tiny little hair follicles on my face

maybe that is why my biest/triest seems to work well when applied to

my face.

I am assuming that I am having " normal " periods now because I have

been supplementing with estrogen and progesterone. I have no idea

what would be happening if I was not taking the hormones except that I

am sure that I would be stuck in bed and not able to function well at

all.

After reading this forum for the past few days and skimming through

Dr. Vliet's books I have decided that I am going to try to reduce my

progesterone dose and see how I do. I had been taking 100 mg vaginal

twice a day for the past few days. I reduced yesterday's pm dose and

today's am dose to 50 mg and I feel better already. I am considering

just using 25 mg tonight. I guess the worst thing that could happen

is that I could feel even better or start spotting. I am going to try

to keep my estrogen dose up to help prevent spotting though. After my

experiment this month with a lower dose I will be better able to

decide if I can go even lower next month and still have a good period.

I am sorry to hear that your have gum recession. Have you been told

that you have bone loss in your mouth as well? That is interesting

about the gum specialist saying that gums cannot grow taller. I

wonder if that idea has ever been tested. Have you ever tried

applying some of your estrogen directly to your gums? I am certain

that my gums between my lower front teeth have grown taller. I still

have little triangular spaces between my lower front teeth but the

spaces are much smaller than they were before I started the estrogen.

I had braces when I was 29 and I wonder if my braces contributed to

my gum recession as well. After the dentist told me that I had bone

loss in my mouth and gum recession and that " you are going to loose

your teeth " I stopped wearing my bottom retainer every night because I

thought that maybe it was pushing on my gums somewhat and may not be

helping my problem. I continue to wear my top retainer at night

though. I do not have any open spaces in my top front teeth area and

I have wondered if my bite plate attached to my top retainer is

helping my top front teeth. My dentist said that the bite plate may

have helped me keep more tissue in my front upper teeth area. Since

his statement I decided to try weight bearing exercise on my mouth to

see if maybe the exercise could help my teeth and gums. I bought the

Flex Effect facial exercise book and I try to do the exercises where

you put pressure on your lower jaw every day. (Push forward against

your hand with your lower jaw, open your mouth and push down against

your hand, push your jaw to the right and left against your hand.) I

have not figured out any exercise for my upper jaw but my bite plate

does put pressure on my top palate. I do not have any scientific

evidence that my exercises will help me keep my teeth but my thinking

is that if weight bearing exercise will help the bone in your spine

and hips it should also help the bone around your teeth.

Kathy

>

> I would be tempted, if I were you, just to take a birth control pill

until actual menopause

> occurs. It is so hard to deal with fluctuating hormone levels right

before menopause. I

> actually did take the pill from ages 46 to 50 in order to prevent

another ovarian cyst, as I

> had to had one ovary removed at 46. When I quit the pill at 50,

instant menopause. Of

> course, the pill is not natural, so many are against it.

>

> I would have to disagree with Val that compounded hormones have no

science behind

> them. The compounders buy their estradiol from the same place the

drug manufacturers

> do, and the FDA does approve estradiol gel and cream made by drug

manufacturers, so

> there is science to support that estradiol does work and is at least

as safe as horse

> estrogen! Now, it is true that compounders may use different methods

and different inert

> ingredients and thus different batches from different compounders

may not be equivalent

> to each other. Also, there is some question whether estrone and

estriol are really needed. I

> believed in Tri-est for 10 years, but then I read that women's

bodies make estrone and

> estriol out of estradiol, so those two are not needed. I switched to

all-estradiol, which is

> much cheaper since I no longer buy it from compounders, and now I no

longer have the

> breast tenderness. I was not able to get my estrogen level up high

enough to relieve my

> symptoms (such as migraine) with the Tri-est or Bi-est until I

eliminated the estriol. I had

> heard that estriol had little effect on the breasts; however, it is

the estrogen which

> increases greatly in pregnancy, and sore breasts are one of the

first signs of pregnancy.

>

> If you feel like you are getting symptoms as your cream wears off,

you should try dividing

> your daily dose in two. This will mean using more cream at a time.

Try changing the

> location of where you put it, and be sure not to bathe or wash your

hands for a couple of

> hours afterwards. I don't think you should put your dose on your

face, as I read that you

> get better absorption where there are hair follicles, like the

thighs and calves (but not the

> shins which have poor blood supply). If you want to try low-dose

estriol cream for your

> face for wrinkles, you could. I tried it briefly, but got pimples

from the cream. One thing

> that will plump up your facial skin is evening primrose oil

capsules. I see a noticeable

> difference in fine lines within a couple of hours, and the effect

goes away within a day of

> quitting it, so I take it twice a day. It's like putting a flower in

water. Take the flower out of

> water and it quickly wilts.

>

> If your estrogen cream doesn't work well, try the gel or the patch

or even oral. But

> sublingual peaks in an hour and then rapidly drops, so I wouldn't

recommend that type at

> all. Of course, you might just need a little bit more estrogen

instead of a different form.

> Since progesterone is an anti-estrogen, you'll need to increase your

estrogen dose a little

> during the time you are on it. If you are still having periods,

though, I wouldn't take it at

> all, especially not the dermal kind which builds up in your skin. It

can also build up applied

> to the vagina. I took only one course of Prochieve vaginal

progesterone in the lowest dose

> a year ago, and I still have symptoms of progesterone overdose.

>

> I had gum recession after being in braces for 3 years at the age of

46. My gums have never

> grown back. Gums can reattach to the tooth root, but if they have

receded, a gum

> specialist told me they cannot grow taller. I have taken

indole-3-carbinol for years with no

> effect on my gums or breasts. I do find that sore gums are helped by

CoQ10. If you tend to

> get mouth or gum ulcers, evening primrose oil can cure them. I found

that in the dental/

> medical literature online, tried it, and it worked. I wish I could

find something that would

> grow my gums back! I was devastated after my braces were removed to

see that I had little

> triangular spaces between my lower teeth, something the orthodontist

never mentioned as

> a possibility. I would worry about swallowing the chemicals in the

estrogen cream that you

> put on your gums. Unless it is just olive oil or something harmless

like that, it's not meant

> to be taken internally.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Val,

I think you are probably right that my progesterone dose was too high.

Yesterday pm and this am I reduced my progesterone dose to 25mg

vaginal/dose. Since reducing my dose for the past couple of day I am

feeling better. I feel better this morning than I did yesterday

morning (used 50mg yesterday morning and the night before). I do not

feel irritable or edgy any more. Also my breast " awareness " is

completely gone even though I have been taking more estrogen. This is

my third day using iodine on my breasts though; I am not sure if the

reduced progesterone or iodine is helping my breasts, maybe it is a

combination.

I have been living with the fact that I was just going to have to put

up with being irritable during my progesterone days. I am so glad I

found this group because now I am learning that I can adjust my

progesterone down and feel better.

Dr. Vliet in her testosterone book page 212 recommends an average

daily dose of 20 mg of vaginal sustained release progesterone/day. If

this is correct, my combined 50 mg/day dose is probably too high. I

am not using sustained release progesterone though and I think that I

loose some of my am dose due to leakage. I am not ready to

discontinue my progesterone altogether but I am going to consider

possibly reducing my dose further next month if I continue to do well

and have a normal period this month.

Is there anyone on this board following Dr. Vliet's advice on using

20mg vaginal progesterone/day for 10 days? Is Dr. Vliet's

recommendation of 20mg vaginal progesterone/day the current accepted

dose?

Thanks for you help.

Kathy

>

> That is a huge dose! I found 100 mg vaginal for 10 days/month tended to

> build up over the months - increased breast soreness and weight gain

with

> each month.

>

> Val

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: rhythmicliving

> [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of acaciamesquite

>

>

> I had been taking 100 mg vaginal

> twice a day for the past few days.

> .

>