Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 , have you had an ultrasound? Apparently, Carolyn has developed some endometrial complications from WP. The more I read, the more ill I get from the idea that some ND, PA or nutritionist can read Lee or T S. Wiley and then prescribe for women - real, live human beings. And the more I read, the more I think compounders and their buddies are guilty of the same sin we attribute to big pharma - greed. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Because now, every time I use ANY P at all, I'm out sick from work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Well, ...I trust your doc did not kick you out of his/her office! I am angry at myself for 1)using only a PA for so long 2) being too chicken to admit the WP to my new doc - an error I will remedy this Tuesday. However....if my bad example can serve to convince even one single woman in this group to get to a real doctor forthwith....then, hell!! Hang me up by my (brutalized) gonads for all to see! Also attach a sign to my swollen boobs for all to read - BEWARE: REPENT AND DO NOT DO LIKEWISE AS THIS FOOLISH WOMAN! xoxoxoCarolyn --- wrote: > Sammie - I don't think you'll be unpopular saying > this. It's true. > But Uzzi Reiss says to titrate when needed. It's > not only a Wiley > idea. I'm not keeping my doctor in the dark at > all. What we did > was unprecedented and now NO one knows how to handle > us. Every time > I think I applied all that P to myself doing Wiley, > I flip. Because > now, every time I use ANY P at all, I'm out sick > from work! > > > > > > > > > Ladies: > > I am going to risk being very unpopular here; > but I am hearing > what I > > consider to be a dangerous trend on this board. > We all want > to " take charge " of > > our health, myself included. > > There comes a time however when we have to come to > terms with the > fact that > > we did something foolish (WP), and are now dealing > with the > outfall. > > Maybe mainstream medicine was not so stupid in > their > recommendations to > > play it safer with tried and true dosing (not > talking about mini > dosing). > > Trying to control your cycles, peaks, valleys, > predict how this or > that is going to > > act when you take it, taking it then having more > problems, not > telling your > > present physician whats really going on so they > are flying blind; > this does > > not seem the way to go for resolution. > > Lets assume your physician wants to help you > get better? Then > come clean. > > Say, " I heard of this hormone thing, I tried it > and now my body > seems to be > > overreacting to P or whatever your problem is. > Going to the Doc > and with > > holding information is not the way to go. How > much of oops does > it take before you > > realize that you cant control your bodies > reactions to hormones? > > Bodies love predictability and trying this or > that, upping then > lowering > > this or that is not stability--its the same type > of experimenting > that Wiley did > > that some of you are still doing on yourselves and > apparently not > with good > > results. > > Love you all, concerned for some of you, hopeful > for all of you. > > Hugs, > > Sammie > > > ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 , I think if I were in your predicament, I'd consider going off everything for a few months and just "sweat" it out. The research just does not support P cream for protection of the endometrium. There may come a time when it will, but until then, I don't trust it. Certainly, we have two women here, Liz V and Carolyn, who didn't get protection from P cream. Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of P kills me. For NOW. My doctor thinks he can figure this out from a blood test! I would LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley Protocol study that was supposed to be started in June by ACAM. Anyone hear anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 ...Long answer to short common sense question, with a full confession here, if for no other reason that to make of myself an example of how stupid a woman can be sometimes!! 'Cause I was afraid of what the BRAND NEW ob/gyn's reaction would be if I told her I had been a year on the original WP amounts, and then a year on the double E and double P WP amounts. I think she has never even heard of the WP. And I think that most doctors would be unable to even comprehend such hormonal mg/day numbers, and such idiocy!! And I was afraid that, from that point on, she would not ever take me seriously at all (considering all the research I had done over the last 14 years, that was my only calling card!!) Over a year ago, while seeing another female doc for something else, I happened to squeek out the Emg number on day 12. She nearly fainted and ordered me up on the table to get an EKG immediately as my BP was in the 150s. (also a side effect of high P, by the way) That reaction from her pretty much scared me from ever mentioning numbers again to any doc. Which DUH should have been a red flag right there! Amazing, the human capacity for DENIAL!! And because, not yet knowing my new ob/gyn that well, I was concerned that when she said she was " conservative " ...that she would put me on a mere ..002mg of estradiol or something like that,over my protestations to the contrary notwithstanding!! So I wanted to " buy " myself a little more time to do the researching of the RL site (I first saw her only two months ago - about the same time I started my own detox from WP and was still on a learning curve from the RL group). I was afraid to open my mouth until I had more WP and RL knowledge under my belt. Which now, of course, I do. So, now, when I go see her on Tuesday, I will have enough knowledge to argue my case for EstraGel or a patch, along with the last 10 days of vag P. Old coot that I am, I usually followed the adage... " When in Doubt, Don't " . 'Course...I got caught in my own web of deceit, didn't I? Now...if I can just get my poor battered uterus saved....:)Carolyn --- wrote: > why on earth would you NOT tell your doctor about > WP. That is > something they have to know about. > > > > > > > > > > Ladies: > > > > I am going to risk being very unpopular > here; > > > but I am hearing > > > what I > > > > consider to be a dangerous trend on this > board. > > > We all want > > > to " take charge " of > > > > our health, myself included. > > > > There comes a time however when we have to > come to > > > terms with the > > > fact that > > > > we did something foolish (WP), and are now > dealing > > > with the > > > outfall. > > > > Maybe mainstream medicine was not so stupid > in > > > their > > > recommendations to > > > > play it safer with tried and true dosing (not > > > talking about mini > > > dosing). > > > > Trying to control your cycles, peaks, valleys, > > > predict how this or > > > that is going to > > > > act when you take it, taking it then having > more > > > problems, not > > > telling your > > > > present physician whats really going on so > they > > > are flying blind; > > > this does > > > > not seem the way to go for resolution. > > > > Lets assume your physician wants to help > you > > > get better? Then > > > come clean. > > > > Say, " I heard of this hormone thing, I tried > it > > > and now my body > > > seems to be > > > > overreacting to P or whatever your problem is. > > > > Going to the Doc > > > and with > > > > holding information is not the way to go. How > > > much of oops does > > > it take before you > > > > realize that you cant control your bodies > > > reactions to hormones? > > > > Bodies love predictability and trying this > or > > > that, upping then > > > lowering > > > > this or that is not stability--its the same > type > > > of experimenting > > > that Wiley did > > > > that some of you are still doing on yourselves > and > > > apparently not > > > with good > > > > results. > > > > Love you all, concerned for some of you, > hopeful > > > for all of you. > > > > Hugs, > > > > Sammie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Yahoo! for Good > > Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Dunno, ...BUT if they swallowed Wiley (she gave a presentation to them recently)....I also consider them a bit suspect in the credentials department, as well. Carolyn --- wrote: > You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of P kills > me. For NOW. > My doctor thinks he can figure this out from a blood > test! I would > LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley > Protocol study that was > supposed to be started in June by ACAM. Anyone hear > anything? > > > > > > > > > > From some > of the reports posted by some group members, it > sounds > > as if even the littlest drip of extra exogenous P > sets > > off their P-fat alarms. Dunno if ANY doctor knows > > enough to deal with this, other than what was > posted, > > which is to " titrate " .) > > > > > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 ...thinking your question about WP protocol study...I think its been already done, essentially, and done one heck of lot better!! Reread my forward posting of the Barry Wren MD study on P creams, and the more recent study published in the journal of the North American Menopausal Society, on P creams, that I forwarded over. Especially Wren's, however. What they have NOT done out there in clinical studies-land,(other than the NAMS Journal, I think not), is how extra amounts of P can MASK the occurance of hyperplasia IF WE GO ONLY BY THE SERUM NUMBERS INSTEAD OF BOTH ULTRASOUNDS AND BIOPSIES. I would hope that ACAM already knows that the WP should be, and has been, rightfully trashed. Carolyn --- wrote: > You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of P kills > me. For NOW. > My doctor thinks he can figure this out from a blood > test! I would > LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley > Protocol study that was > supposed to be started in June by ACAM. Anyone hear > anything? > > > > > > > > > > From some > of the reports posted by some group members, it > sounds > > as if even the littlest drip of extra exogenous P > sets > > off their P-fat alarms. Dunno if ANY doctor knows > > enough to deal with this, other than what was > posted, > > which is to " titrate " .) > > > > > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Amen, , Amen. Or at least, try the vaginal when you and your doc are ready. Unlike the transdermal P and all its nasty and unpredictable side effects, the vaginal delivery method HAS been shown in studies to protect the endo, although biopsies are still requisite, according to those studies. Carolyn --- Valarie wrote: > , I think if I were in your predicament, I'd > consider going off > everything for a few months and just " sweat " it out. > The research just does > not support P cream for protection of the > endometrium. There may come a > time when it will, but until then, I don't trust it. > Certainly, we have two > women here, Liz V and Carolyn, who didn't get > protection from P cream. > > Val > > -----Original Message----- > From: rhythmicliving > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of > > > > You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of P > kills me. For NOW. > My doctor thinks he can figure this out from a > blood test! I would > LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley > Protocol study that was > supposed to be started in June by ACAM. Anyone > hear anything? > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 But....did the troches also cause the nasty stuff you are going through now?? Sublinguals will still go systemic, and also they metabolize with a " cocaine-like-hit " , as they are not only NOT " sustained release " but are tested as getting into the blood stream super fast, (as do E sublinguals, as well) -then falling precipitously and relatively shortly thereafter! Which 'may' explain some of the awful stuff you are experiencing!! Are you still considering the Crinone at all? - together with your doc, of course!!! Carolyn --- wrote: > I did think of this. But I get hot flashes - > SICKLY ones -- with > no E. The troches stopped my hyperplasia - i can > tell you that. > > > > > > > , I think if I were in your predicament, I'd > consider going off > > everything for a few months and just " sweat " it > out. The research > just does > > not support P cream for protection of the > endometrium. There may > come a > > time when it will, but until then, I don't trust > it. Certainly, > we have two > > women here, Liz V and Carolyn, who didn't get > protection from P > cream. > > > > Val > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rhythmicliving > > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf > Of > > > > > > You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of P > kills me. For > NOW. > > My doctor thinks he can figure this out from a > blood test! I > would > > LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley > Protocol study that > was > > supposed to be started in June by ACAM. Anyone > hear anything? > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Sure did...for which I am eternally grateful. It would seem that even a 6mm may not be all that great!! That is probably similar, in paradigm change, to how the levels of hypertension, homocysteine, and cholesterol have changed. What was before acceptable is now being seen as way too high. Maybe ditto on the ultrasound measurement parameters, as well!! I shall see, when I get the biopsy report on Tuesday, won't I? xoxoxCarolyn --- wrote: > Carolyn - I see your point. But that doctor acted > properly! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ladies: > > > > > > I am going to risk being very unpopular > > > here; > > > > > but I am hearing > > > > > what I > > > > > > consider to be a dangerous trend on this > > > board. > > > > > We all want > > > > > to " take charge " of > > > > > > our health, myself included. > > > > > > There comes a time however when we have to > > > come to > > > > > terms with the > > > > > fact that > > > > > > we did something foolish (WP), and are now > > > dealing > > > > > with the > > > > > outfall. > > > > > > Maybe mainstream medicine was not so > stupid > > > in > > > > > their > > > > > recommendations to > > > > > > play it safer with tried and true dosing > (not > > > > > talking about mini > > > > > dosing). > > > > > > Trying to control your cycles, peaks, > valleys, > > > > > predict how this or > > > > > that is going to > > > > > > act when you take it, taking it then > having > > > more > > > > > problems, not > > > > > telling your > > > > > > present physician whats really going on so > > > they > > > > > are flying blind; > === message truncated === __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 It will be interesting to see how you get on with it. How will you be using it - daily, every other day, or 10 days/month? Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of astrodianaJust got back from my doctor...he ordered me the vaginal gel from WIP - he talked to a pharamcist about the vaginal gel and she told him the major difference in the vaginal delivery method was that women get far less DEPRESSED on vaginal P...interesting, huh? He asked me why I wanted to try that and I told him it is believed to be better for protecting the endometrium and targeting the area where it does the most good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Gotta say, ...it makes a LOTTA sense to get this all from a gyno who IS the correct specialist!!! Carolyn --- wrote: > I may get it from my gyno now. I don't want to > bother my poor doctor > for yet another method of P! > > > > > > > > > > > , I think if I were in your predicament, I'd > > > consider going off > > > everything for a few months and just " sweat " it > out. > > > The research just does > > > not support P cream for protection of the > > > endometrium. There may come a > > > time when it will, but until then, I don't trust > it. > > > Certainly, we have two > > > women here, Liz V and Carolyn, who didn't get > > > protection from P cream. > > > > > > Val > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rhythmicliving > > > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf > Of > > > > > > > > > > > > You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of P > > > kills me. For NOW. > > > My doctor thinks he can figure this out from a > > > blood test! I would > > > LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley > > > Protocol study that was > > > supposed to be started in June by ACAM. > Anyone > > > hear anything? > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 YAAAAAAHOOOOOO, !! Hard to believe, but yes, we will all be questioned on why we would be interested in the vaginal delivery (yet notsurprising either, because I would always get the same question from both docs and pharms, i.e., " well, now, why on earth would you want to use suppositories when we have all this other wonderful stuff that is so much easier to take?? " - which of course, just underscores that almost all docs and pharms are NOT keeping up with current knowledge breaking news 2004-2005 - yet which has been around since the ages and KNOWN to not cause as many systemic side effects!!! 'Course, most of them simply cannot imagine why we would go through what they see as the " messiness " and inconvenience of vaginal - which is why the new Crinone (Prochieve applicators) were designed to address those issues!! Good ol' USA. And yes, of COURSE!! We will NOT have our brains affected as much with the vaginals. As we all should know by now, Mother Nature intended P to be a seriously strong sedative for the gestating mother - especially in the third trimester (read Vliet!) I am very excited for you, and can hardly wait to get on the vaginal gel myself!! Finally, we have lift-off, Houston!!!! :):)Carolyn --- astrodiana wrote: > > Just got back from my doctor...he ordered me the > vaginal gel from > WIP - he talked to a pharamcist about the vaginal > gel and she told > him the major difference in the vaginal delivery > method was that > women get far less DEPRESSED on vaginal > P...interesting, huh? He > asked me why I wanted to try that and I told him it > is believed to be > better for protecting the endometrium and targeting > the area where it > does the most good. > > > > > > > > > > > > , I think if I were in your predicament, > I'd > > > > consider going off > > > > everything for a few months and just " sweat " > it out. > > > > The research just does > > > > not support P cream for protection of the > > > > endometrium. There may come a > > > > time when it will, but until then, I don't > trust it. > > > > Certainly, we have two > > > > women here, Liz V and Carolyn, who didn't get > > > > protection from P cream. > > > > > > > > Val > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: rhythmicliving > > > > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On > Behalf Of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You said it Carolyn -- any little amount of > P > > > > kills me. For NOW. > > > > My doctor thinks he can figure this out from > a > > > > blood test! I would > > > > LOVE to know what's going on with that Wiley > > > > Protocol study that was > > > > supposed to be started in June by ACAM. > Anyone > > > > hear anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 What strength is it?. Is it in an applicator? Can you get it high enough in there? Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of astrodiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 In the back of Vliet's new book about Testosterone, she writes about her concern regarding the new practice lately of many compounding pharmacists actually PRESCRIBING for patients lately - which, as she said, and I will emphasize here IS ILLEGAL. Consider that shouted out!!! For the very first time, I ran into that when my new ob/gyn referred me to our local compounder, which I had never used. I was stunned! I hope everyone read my posting on that experience. If not, I will post it again!! The compounding pharmacists HAVE NO BUSINESS telling you whether you should take it daily, or whatever. Legally, that is only a doctor's territory! And the difference to your body if you take it daily or every other day is TREMENDOUS (remember WP)!! That said, if you want to incur amenorrhea rather than cycle, I think the recommendation IS every other day. And, excuse me, but what the hell is he doing comparing vaginal to the cream per Rxing the vaginal as one would do the cream!! They are two completely different protocols and two completely different metabolic procesess!! The compounding pharmacists have indeed, gone way way beyond their proper territory!! Any any good doctor would explode at their transgressions of prescribing!! Dear God....that man is a moron, as well as " selling more product " !!! I am feeling like the AFLAC duck again!! Absent a decent doctor to advise you, refer to Vliet on that one. I go back, again, to the health adage on medicine, which is " Take the least amount for the shortest amount of time that will produce the most positive effect with the least amount of negative side effects " That STILL remains the medical equivalent of the 10 Commandments, or the Golden Rule!! --- astrodiana wrote: > > > It will be interesting to see how you get on with > it. How will you > be using > > it - daily, every other day, or 10 days/month? > > > > Val > > > I have stopped cycling...so I will use it every > other day..he > prescribed it BID (like my cream had been - the > pharmacist said to > precribe it like the cream...I think they just want > to sell more) and > told me that I probably only wanted to use it once a > day...but I will > try every other day and that most likely will do it > for me. > > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Quite a vital question, Val!! Since it is only the Prochieve (Crinone) that I am aware of anyway, that comes prepackaged in an applicator so that is DOES get inserted far up enough to have the hormone reach the uterus predicatably....not sure what Diane could possibly be getting from a compounder. Also, the Prochieve (Crinone) comes in a 4%=45mg for HRT, as well as 8%=90mg for pregnancy help. Diane...after hearing the pharm tell you to do it every day " like the cream " , I am scared to death what dose he has made up in a gel if indeed it is custom compounded!!! Remember...that P is going straight within inches to your uterine tissue, NOT having to go through skin and fat and all the other metabolic systems before it reaches that target endometrium!! Too high levels of vaginal P, for just HRT, might have you galloping in on a steed with all guns blazing to take him out!! :)Carolyn --- Valarie wrote: > What strength is it?. Is it in an applicator? Can > you get it high enough > in there? > Val > > -----Original Message----- > From: rhythmicliving > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of > astrodiana > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 ...as one who has also been around the block way too many time, and who has also encountered the truism of " most doctors ARE idiots " EVEN those staffing the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota..... I totally concur with you!!! God Bless! Carolyn --- astrodiana wrote: > -I trust Dr. Bain with my life, my first born, > everyone I know and > love. He has helped me a great deal with things > nobody else could > have done, with medicine and energy work of all > types. He prescribed > an experimental protocol for my chronic fatigue when > nobody else > would, and cured me - saving me a trip to Vanderbilt > University, and > he consulted with the doc who created it. I can > talk to him. > Although he doesn't usually deal with female > hormones, but instead > bio-identicals of all kinds (more often, thyroid & > adrenals), I > respect that he at least called the WIP and > questioned them about it. > He isn't my gyno...who prescribes only Prem-pro and > $ynthroid.I am > just happy to have scored this stuff and I know he > is fine with me > using it as I see fit. chances are, it will cost me > a fraction of the > amount a pharamceutical from the drugstore would if > the other > compounded hormones vs store bought that my husband > and i have > gotten are any indication. I am not yet totally > sold on it anyway, > and am doing okay on the cream. so that is where I > stand on this. > Not real interested in inserting something into me > and dealing with > whatever that creates. so unless I see a marked > difference, I wil > not stick with it. > > I also believe that most doctors are idiots and I > think the fact > that women can get hormones from compounders at > least gives them an > option that they might be able to use wisely if well > informed, vs > living in the sticks with only an idiot Dr. near > enough to spend > their money on and get nothing in return but a > sample pack of > Effexor. I have been around the block too many times > to think very > highly of the majority of docs I have dealt with > > > > > -- In rhythmicliving , carolyn egan > <satoristar3@y...> > wrote: > > In the back of Vliet's new book about > Testosterone, > > she writes about her concern regarding the new > > practice lately of many compounding pharmacists > > actually PRESCRIBING for patients lately - which, > as > > she said, and I will emphasize here IS ILLEGAL. > > Consider that shouted out!!! > > > > For the very first time, I ran into that when my > new > > ob/gyn referred me to our local compounder, which > I > > had never used. I was stunned! I hope everyone > read my > > posting on that experience. If not, I will post it > > again!! > > > > The compounding pharmacists HAVE NO BUSINESS > telling > > you whether you should take it daily, or whatever. > > Legally, that is only a doctor's territory! And > the > > difference to your body if you take it daily or > every > > other day is TREMENDOUS (remember WP)!! > > > > That said, if you want to incur amenorrhea rather > than > > cycle, I think the recommendation IS every other > day. > > And, excuse me, but what the hell is he doing > > comparing vaginal to the cream per Rxing the > vaginal > > as one would do the cream!! They are two > completely > > different protocols and two completely different > > metabolic procesess!! The compounding pharmacists > have > > indeed, gone way way beyond their proper > territory!! > > Any any good doctor would explode at their > > transgressions of prescribing!! Dear God....that > man > > is a moron, as well as " selling more product " !!! > I am > > feeling like the AFLAC duck again!! > > > > Absent a decent doctor to advise you, refer to > Vliet > > on that one. I go back, again, to the health adage > on > > medicine, which is > > > > " Take the least amount for the shortest amount of > time > > that will produce the most positive effect with > the > > least amount of negative side effects " > > > > That STILL remains the medical equivalent of the > 10 > > Commandments, or the Golden Rule!! > > > > --- astrodiana <Astrodiana@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > It will be interesting to see how you get on > with > > > it. How will you > > > be using > > > > it - daily, every other day, or 10 days/month? > > > > > > > > Val > > > > > > > > > I have stopped cycling...so I will use it every > > > other day..he > > > prescribed it BID (like my cream had been - the > > > pharmacist said to > > > precribe it like the cream...I think they just > want > > > to sell more) and > > > told me that I probably only wanted to use it > once a > > > day...but I will > > > try every other day and that most likely will do > it > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 ..... Sounds like you have scored a BINGO with the Crinone (Prochieve), which, by definition, is offered either in the 4% or the 8%. No other product would fit that definition of protocol. In the next few days, when I have time to get focused and centered, I will condense a few of the relevant points from the incredible clinical study (February 2005) that was forwarded over by Val to the group. In it, you will find that your intelligent and intuitive choice of Crinone will be more than validated!! Carolyn --- astrodiana wrote: > > > What strength is it?. Is it in an applicator? > Can you get it high > enough > > in there? > > Val > > > > He told me it comes in 4 or 8%...I said 4% - said it > will come with > applicators... > > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Yep, counselor-at-law. I ALWAYS found the Mayo Clinic to be staffed with the greatest idiots of them all....and, as a patient having a number beginning with # 1 (going back to the early 1950's)... I have been to the head of the endocrinology department all the way to the head of the Alzhiemer's department of education. Going to the Mayo Clinic is enough to cause one to denounce the existence of God Himself. Carolyn --- astrodiana wrote: > -MAYO EVEN????!! (I rest my case) > > > > > > -- In rhythmicliving , carolyn egan > <satoristar3@y...> > wrote: > > ...as one who has also been around the block > way > > too many time, and who has also encountered the > truism > > of " most doctors ARE idiots " EVEN those staffing > the > > Mayo Clinic in Minnesota..... > > I totally concur with you!!! God Bless! Carolyn > > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 If each dose is 4%, then using it 2x/day would mean you're getting a dose = to what you'd need if you were trying to conceive. Do you know if it has the " adhesive " quality of Prochieve? I think the main difference between my vaginal Prometrium and Carolyn's Prochieve is that the Prometrium is not (at least in the USA) meant for vaginal use. Also, I'm getting 100 mg as opposed to Carolyn's 45 mg. I can tell for sure that the vaginal Prometrium is getting in. My breasts are very sore - more so than when I took 200 mg orally. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of astrodiana > What strength is it?. Is it in an applicator? Can you get it high enough > in there? > Val > He told me it comes in 4 or 8%...I said 4% - said it will come with applicators... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Hi Val!! Sorry!! I will try a little more clarity here! **Prochieve 4%=45mg is taken ONLY ONCE PER DAY OF 10 DAYS = 1 X DAY at NIGHT ONLY, so that you are getting ONLY 45mg per day total for ONLY 10 days/month. EITHER of the Prochieve products is NOT ever meant to be taken 2 x day, whether you take the 4%=45mg as designed for HRT, or the 8%=90mg which is manufactured with the intent of being used, in that 8% amount, to sustain a pregnancy. STILL only 1 x day. **Prometrium does NOT have the adhesive quality manufactured in, as does Prochieve, as it is/was not manufactured to be a vaginal product, only oral. Therefore, some will leak out so that a consistent dose cannot be assured. **The Prometrium at 100 mg would be giving you above the amount recommended to sustain a conception. And if you took it 2 x day...that would be a supraphysiologic amount!! Vaginal dosing cannot be compared or equal to transdermal or oral. They are different delivery systems that are metabolized completely differently from each other - oral, cream, or vaginal. Since the vaginal goes directly to the target tissues of the uterus (just a few inches away, and not having to be first metabolized through skin and fat and peripheral blood, et.al.,) you ARE going to get " your dosage worth " with the lesser amount of 45mg 1 x day. In other words, 100+mg, vaginally, would be double dosing. And, adding that vaginal 100mg + double dosing to our already P-Packed stores....yep...you probably are asking for side effects!! It probably goes without saying that when a pharmaceutical product is pretested prior to being approved by the FDA, it is done so with the intent that the reliable studies regarding efficacious amounts are to be respected, and followed, in the production of the product. And that would include testings of the bio-mechanisms of delivery. Prometrium was tested for oral delivery, and Prochieve (Crinone) was tested for vaginal delivery. And the creams.....well, as we all know....they are not required to be tested at all!! So, I think your side effect of sore breasts may be due to the fact that you are using, essentially, a double dose of P for HRT vaginal use (and are you going over the recommended 10 days??) Something else to keep in mind is the fact that, again, Prochieve is manufactured to be delivered to the tissues in a SUSTAINED RELEASE FORM!! Whereas Prometrium is NOT manufactured to be sustained release, which, as we all know, is the best way, called pulsatile, that our younger bodies delivered the hormones to our systems! So the Prometrium is also going in fast and droppping fast. Not the best delivery of ANY hormone!! ' Hope this helps....Carolyn --- Valarie wrote: > If each dose is 4%, then using it 2x/day would mean > you're getting a dose = > to what you'd need if you were trying to conceive. > Do you know if it has > the " adhesive " quality of Prochieve? I think the > main difference between my > vaginal Prometrium and Carolyn's Prochieve is that > the Prometrium is not (at > least in the USA) meant for vaginal use. Also, I'm > getting 100 mg as > opposed to Carolyn's 45 mg. > > I can tell for sure that the vaginal Prometrium is > getting in. My breasts > are very sore - more so than when I took 200 mg > orally. > > Val > > -----Original Message----- > From: rhythmicliving > [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of > astrodiana > > > > What strength is it?. Is it in an applicator? > Can you get it high > enough > > in there? > > Val > > > > He told me it comes in 4 or 8%...I said 4% - said it > will come with > applicators... > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 You can also order Crinone online but I've not seen anything but the 8%. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of astrodiana You can order 100 mg Prometrium online and it says on the website that it can be taken orally OR vaginally. It is a capsule..not a gel w/ applicator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Prometrium has never been manufactured in less than 100 mg strength. Val -----Original Message----- From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of astrodiana > Only 100 mg? It doesn't come in less than that? > > Being able to purchase things online without a script, I guess you have to take what you can get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Well, at least in the US, 100 mg Prometrium is meant for daily oral use. Oral and vaginal may have different absorption rates. Val -----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of cbwillis9> Prometrium has never been manufactured in less than 100 mg strength.> > ValPossibly because that's the minimum amount considered to protect the uterus when also using estrogen in HRT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Yes, Larrian Gillespie. That is if you're going to use Prometrium. She recommends just 50 mg P suppository x 5 days every 3 months. However, I got hyperplasia on that regimen I did too, and had to bleed out a 8 stripe with horse dose prometrium which was two months of hemorrhaging and terrible E blockage. Ended up with Vulvodynia, Senile Vaginits and peed about every five minutes. My E level was 50 and it took two more months of vaginal E nightly and 2 mg E daily to finally get some stability. The key to success is to have enough E on board (note not necessary high doses but enough E to give a blood level of at least 100). I had a problem constant spotting afterward and had to get the Mirena. Sammie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Well, Sonii...not that I'm aware of!! Crinone has been around for quite a while now, FDA approved for vaginal use at 4% but needs a docs RX. It is now called Prochieve 4%. (If I may dare to say so, it is on page 221 of Wiley's book, in her listing of meds.) Also, Dr. Vliet mentions it often. Otherwise, it can be custom compounded in little bulllet shapped suppositories by a custom compounder to a doc's Rx also. That method has been around for at least the last 15 years that I knwo of. Word of caution...studies have determined that for BHRT vaginal use, 45mg (the 4%) product, is the correct amount to use. Higher dosing would, I think, start problems. -Carolyn Prometrium is NOT manufactured for vaginal use. I do not know of any internet source. --- Sonii Nagel wrote: > > > Hi Val!! > > Sorry!! I will try a little more clarity here! > > > > **Prochieve 4%=45mg is taken ONLY ONCE PER DAY OF > 10 > > DAYS = 1 X DAY at NIGHT ONLY, so that you are > getting > > ONLY 45mg per day total for ONLY 10 days/month. > > > > EITHER of the Prochieve products is NOT ever meant > to > > be taken 2 x day, whether you take the 4%=45mg as > > designed for HRT, or the 8%=90mg which is > manufactured > > with the intent of being used, in that 8% amount, > to > > sustain a pregnancy. STILL only 1 x day. > > > > Hey again, > > When yall first started talking about this vaginal > P, do I remember > someone saying you can order it online, without a > prescription? > > Just wondering. > > Sonii > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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