Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

Helen,

 

Thanks for thinking through this for me.

 

I was in a marriage with her for 14-years.  I've seen very very peculiar behaviors at the most intimate level that aren't normal.  I may never be certain, but the combination of traits seem to match AS criteria very closely.  I was on this list a lot in 2008 using a different email which I changed for confidentiality.  I believe that Bill and others here can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the description of her behaviors I've given.  Further, I believe one of my sons has AS, and his behavior resembles her in many ways.     

 

As sad as it sounds, there's no doubt that the lone therapist (whom I never met) led her toward divorce and validated her negative and irrational comments.  Afterward, a mutual friend intervened and contacted this therapist to find out what went on there and found that that's what happened.  Further, my wife basically admits that that's what happened, but said ultimately it was her (my wife's) decision to divorce.  Also, the therapist (a family therapist who probably doesn't know how to spell AS) told my wife that she doesn't have AS.  I may report them in the future, but for now, I'm wondering if there's any way that that therapist center can help us now.  The problem now is two-fold: That she's seeking divorce, and her hostility toward me is bad for all of us. 

 

She takes care of most of the kids'  " basic " needs like giving our 5-yr old baths, feeding them, etc.  She was unusually nurturing when they were babies.  It was a beautiful sight. 

 

However, as they've grown, I've noticed that she's not affectionate at all.  She never ever touches my 13-year old daughter and will say " I love you " to the younger ones only when she's walking out or something like that.  No spontaneous affection.  She'll often make comments to my 13 yr old like " you never help " , and my daughter goes ballistic.  It makes my daughter crazy.  I understand since that's what I endured for all the years.  

 

My wife basically is missing an element of warmth that normal mothers seem to have.  She'll never say " sorry " to help a situation.  She's always right and will almost always escalate an argument rather than making peace.  Plus, she can't handle all the kids especially with my self-dx 12yr old son.  When I'm away, my 13 year old is usually asking me to come home and help.  My kids don't know about the divorce yet.

 

Thanks for listening.     

 

 

 

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on #1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be reported to some higher body.

Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best

advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up marriages.It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses

cling to the AS label as a " silver bullet " that will save the marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is

she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.- Helen At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:>>>Helen,>>Good question. If she has AS, then>>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she

>might have been>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family >therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.>>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her

>behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.>>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE " adapt " to my >needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection

>with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find >some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the >decimation of my family.>>Those are some of my initial thoughts.

>>Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I can only give a short reply for now ... just wish to comment on the

memory of growing up with a " cold " parent .... it wasn't

wonderful. One of the hardest things about growing up. I will write

a longer reply on that topic later. I'm so sorry about the therapist -

WOW that sounds so unprofessional, so counter to what they normally do.

So sorry for your kids, so sorry for you!

- Helen

At 06:55 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:

Helen,

Thanks for thinking through this for me.

I was in a marriage with her for 14-years. I've seen very very

peculiar behaviors at the most intimate level that aren't normal. I

may never be certain, but the combination of traits seem to match AS

criteria very closely. I was on this list a lot in 2008 using a

different email which I changed for confidentiality. I believe that

Bill and others here can at least see that there are indications she may

have AS based on the description of her behaviors I've given.

Further, I believe one of my sons has AS, and his behavior resembles her

in many ways.

As sad as it sounds, there's no doubt that the lone therapist (whom I

never met) led her toward divorce and validated her negative and

irrational comments. Afterward, a mutual friend intervened and

contacted this therapist to find out what went on there and found that

that's what happened. Further, my wife basically admits that that's

what happened, but said ultimately it was her (my wife's) decision to

divorce. Also, the therapist (a family therapist who probably

doesn't know how to spell AS) told my wife that she doesn't have

AS. I may report them in the future, but for now, I'm wondering if

there's any way that that therapist center can help us now. The

problem now is two-fold: That she's seeking divorce, and her hostility

toward me is bad for all of us.

She takes care of most of the kids' " basic " needs like giving

our 5-yr old baths, feeding them, etc. She was unusually nurturing

when they were babies. It was a beautiful sight.

However, as they've grown, I've noticed that she's not affectionate at

all. She never ever touches my 13-year old daughter and will say

" I love you " to the younger ones only when she's walking out or

something like that. No spontaneous affection. She'll often

make comments to my 13 yr old like " you never help " , and my

daughter goes ballistic. It makes my daughter crazy. I

understand since that's what I endured for all the years.

My wife basically is missing an element of warmth that normal mothers

seem to have. She'll never say " sorry " to help a

situation. She's always right and will almost always escalate an

argument rather than making peace. Plus, she can't handle all the

kids especially with my self-dx 12yr old son. When I'm away, my 13

year old is usually asking me to come home and help. My kids don't

know about the divorce yet.

Thanks for listening.

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Helen Foisy

wrote:

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on

#1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family

therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be

reported to some higher body.

Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high

social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where

children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best

advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's

normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up

marriages.

It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses

cling to the AS label as a " silver bullet " that will save

the

marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will

save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is

she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.

- Helen

At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:

>

>

>Helen,

>

>Good question. If she has AS, then

>

>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she

>might have been

>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family

>therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing

it.

>

>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her

>behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.

>

>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE

" adapt " to my

>needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection

>with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can

find

>some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing

the

>decimation of my family.

>

>Those are some of my initial thoughts.

>

>Thanks.

[Guest guest]

What you describe here is not good for kids. Sounds like my mother. I would do whatever I could to stay in control of the kids' lives. If you can save the marriage you would be able to maintain the most amount of control over what happens to the kids. Otherwise get as much custody as you can. Teach your kids they ARE loveable and that mom has a problem that has nothing to do with them. If you can, portray in in as positive a light as you can while still letting them know it is NOT their fault and not their responsibility. Some of this might be her replaying her past (i.e. her mother was the same way). In any case it's not good for kids. I have seen this in my own family. Not only in my own pain in dealing with my mom but in my siblings. One sibling seems to be taking a similar path to my mom rather than fighting against it.

Not sure what to tell you on how to save it. If she's decided this thing, it's not like she's going to go to another counselor if you did find one.. would she? But if you could get her to go to another counselor perhaps a second opinion would cause her to stop and think about her decision. Have you gone to couples counseling? One thing that might be motivating to her is if you go together because then it doesn't feel like you think she's the entire problem... At this point (for the kids sake) it doesn't matter what reality is, what matters is what can you do to get her in to get some help. Maybe bring up the past event where you wanted the divorce and she wanted it stopped and point out that you gave it another chance and then ask if she would give you another chance this time.... Going to a couples counselor might be the only way you can get her to go to a different counselor/therapist... of course if that couples counselor/therapist just happened to be someone who knew about AS...

Just my thoughts,

Jennie AS -finds ways to be affectionate with kids and spouse

Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Helen,

Thanks for thinking through this for me.

I was in a marriage with her for 14-years. I've seen very very peculiar behaviors at the most intimate level that aren't normal. I may never be certain, but the combination of traits seem to match AS criteria very closely. I was on this list a lot in 2008 using a different email which I changed for confidentiality. I believe that Bill and others here can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the description of her behaviors I've given. Further, I believe one of my sons has AS, and his behavior resembles her in many ways.

As sad as it sounds, there's no doubt that the lone therapist (whom I never met) led her toward divorce and validated her negative and irrational comments. Afterward, a mutual friend intervened and contacted this therapist to find out what went on there and found that that's what happened. Further, my wife basically admits that that's what happened, but said ultimately it was her (my wife's) decision to divorce. Also, the therapist (a family therapist who probably doesn't know how to spell AS) told my wife that she doesn't have AS. I may report them in the future, but for now, I'm wondering if there's any way that that therapist center can help us now. The problem now is two-fold: That she's seeking divorce, and her hostility toward me is bad for all of us.

She takes care of most of the kids' "basic" needs like giving our 5-yr old baths, feeding them, etc. She was unusually nurturing when they were babies. It was a beautiful sight.

However, as they've grown, I've noticed that she's not affectionate at all. She never ever touches my 13-year old daughter and will say "I love you" to the younger ones only when she's walking out or something like that. No spontaneous affection. She'll often make comments to my 13 yr old like "you never help", and my daughter goes ballistic. It makes my daughter crazy. I understand since that's what I endured for all the years.

My wife basically is missing an element of warmth that normal mothers seem to have. She'll never say "sorry" to help a situation. She's always right and will almost always escalate an argument rather than making peace. Plus, she can't handle all the kids especially with my self-dx 12yr old son. When I'm away, my 13 year old is usually asking me to come home and help. My kids don't know about the divorce yet.

Thanks for listening.

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on #1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be reported to some higher body.Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up marriages.It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses cling to the AS label as a "silver bullet" that will save the marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.- Helen At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:>>>Helen,>>Good question. If she has AS, then>>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she >might have been>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family >therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.>>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her >behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.>>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE "adapt" to my >needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection >with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find >some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the >decimation of my family.>>Those are some of my initial thoughts.>>Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Jennie,

 

Thanks for your feedback.  I'm deeply concerned. 

 

If she has AS, then any solution will be entirely different than it would be for a " cold " person.  Basically, she can't engage in a give-and-take conversation.  I assume  therapy designed for AS adults will ideally workaround this and other weaknesses.    

 

I believe that trying to dance around the AS label only undermines efforts to deal with this situation.   

 

btw she turns her back during intimacy.  I understand that's not a criterion, but another red-flag for AS. 

 

I love my wife despite the difficulties.  The degree of hostility only reaffirms that there's something extraordinarily wrong, and I believe that that something is AS. 

 

It's my understanding that AS is most common in men by a factor of 10.  It may be that AS in women is just under-diagnosed. 

Thanks.

 

What you describe here is not good for kids. Sounds like my mother. I would do whatever I could to stay in control of the kids' lives. If you can save the marriage you would be able to maintain the most amount of control over what happens to the kids. Otherwise get as much custody as you can. Teach your kids they ARE loveable and that mom has a problem that has nothing to do with them. If you can, portray in in as positive a light as you can while still letting them know it is NOT their fault and not their responsibility. Some of this might be her replaying her past (i.e. her mother was the same way). In any case it's not good for kids. I have seen this in my own family. Not only in my own pain in dealing with my mom but in my siblings. One sibling seems to be taking a similar path to my mom rather than fighting against it.

 

Not sure what to tell you on how to save it. If she's decided this thing, it's not like she's going to go to another counselor if you did find one.. would she? But if you could get her to go to another counselor perhaps a second opinion would cause her to stop and think about her decision. Have you gone to couples counseling? One thing that might be motivating to her is if you go together because then it doesn't feel like you think she's the entire problem... At this point (for the kids sake) it doesn't matter what reality is, what matters is what can you do to get her in to get some help. Maybe bring up the past event where you wanted the divorce and she wanted it stopped and point out that you gave it another chance and then ask if she would give you another chance this time.... Going to a couples counselor might be the only way you can get her to go to a different counselor/therapist... of course if that couples counselor/therapist just happened to be someone who knew about AS...

 

Just my thoughts,

 

Jennie AS -finds ways to be affectionate with kids and spouse

Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Helen,

 

Thanks for thinking through this for me.

 

I was in a marriage with her for 14-years.  I've seen very very peculiar behaviors at the most intimate level that aren't normal.  I may never be certain, but the combination of traits seem to match AS criteria very closely.  I was on this list a lot in 2008 using a different email which I changed for confidentiality.  I believe that Bill and others here can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the description of her behaviors I've given.  Further, I believe one of my sons has AS, and his behavior resembles her in many ways.     

 

As sad as it sounds, there's no doubt that the lone therapist (whom I never met) led her toward divorce and validated her negative and irrational comments.  Afterward, a mutual friend intervened and contacted this therapist to find out what went on there and found that that's what happened.  Further, my wife basically admits that that's what happened, but said ultimately it was her (my wife's) decision to divorce.  Also, the therapist (a family therapist who probably doesn't know how to spell AS) told my wife that she doesn't have AS.  I may report them in the future, but for now, I'm wondering if there's any way that that therapist center can help us now.  The problem now is two-fold: That she's seeking divorce, and her hostility toward me is bad for all of us. 

 

She takes care of most of the kids'  " basic " needs like giving our 5-yr old baths, feeding them, etc.  She was unusually nurturing when they were babies.  It was a beautiful sight. 

 

However, as they've grown, I've noticed that she's not affectionate at all.  She never ever touches my 13-year old daughter and will say " I love you " to the younger ones only when she's walking out or something like that.  No spontaneous affection.  She'll often make comments to my 13 yr old like " you never help " , and my daughter goes ballistic.  It makes my daughter crazy.  I understand since that's what I endured for all the years.  

 

My wife basically is missing an element of warmth that normal mothers seem to have.  She'll never say " sorry " to help a situation.  She's always right and will almost always escalate an argument rather than making peace.  Plus, she can't handle all the kids especially with my self-dx 12yr old son.  When I'm away, my 13 year old is usually asking me to come home and help.  My kids don't know about the divorce yet.

 

Thanks for listening.     

 

 

 

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on #1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be reported to some higher body.

Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best

advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up marriages.It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses

cling to the AS label as a " silver bullet " that will save the marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is

she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.- Helen At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:>>>Helen,>>Good question. If she has AS, then>>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she >might have been

>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family >therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.>>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her >behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.

>>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE " adapt " to my >needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection >with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find

>some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the >decimation of my family.>>Those are some of my initial thoughts.>>Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Greg,

I am an AS woman. I would agree that AS is underdiagnosed in women. I think because women tend to be able to cover better and because AS affects women slightly differently than men.

If your wife does not see that she is AS then any solution will have to be whatever you can get done.... regardless of AS. Your options are limited without her cooperation. As a woman with AS raised by a cold woman who I also believe has AS in the end I think these behaviors are a choice just like for any other person. So when dealing with my mother I do not try to get her to see she is AS. I have never even suggested it to her. I simple point out to her that her behaviors are wrong and unacceptable. She claims Christianity as her faith so I often point out biblical facts that show her behavior to be wrong. One time she responded appropriately to this. But it took her a long time to do so. She never did admit she was wrong but she did change her behavior toward me. This was after I allowed her over a year of silence. I say allowed her because she gave me the silent treatment in an attempt to get me to back down. I simply didn't back down and eventually she stopped giving me the silent treatment and then pretended like there had not been a years worth of silence and while she did not apologise or admit she was wrong she did change her behavior about that particular thing. Right now she is again giving me the silent treatment. This time I have told her she needs to apologize because what she did was WAY over the edge, WAY out of line. I know dealing with a wife and the mother of your children is different from dealing with one's mother. But I guess I just want you to see that AS is not an excuse for bad behavior nor does it make one incapable of seeing right and wrong/ good and bad. As an AS woman I think differently from others (both men and women) but I am not insensitive or unable to see others pain. She knows she causes pain. She just doesn't admit to it. That is a narcissistic trait, not an AS trait. AS and autistic children see others pain and try to reach out they just don't always reach out appropriately because they don't understand that others do not think as they do. Narcissists see others pain and don't care because all of their life is defined by SELF. If it doesn't affect them negatively then it doesn't matter. My mother CHOOSES to behave the way she behaves. I CHOOSE to NOT behave that way. My mother CHOSE to not visit her dying daughter (my sister), she didn't not visit her dying daughter because she is AS. It was not out of her control, or brought on by her 'disability', she just flat out chose not to because it made her uncomfortable. Now that uncomfortableness might have been because of her AS but nothing prevented her from chosing to do it anyway. I am uncomfortable in things that normal people do not get uncomfortable in, I force myself to do them anyway because it's the right thing to do. As I often point out... it's not comfortable for a firefighter to run into a burning building and save someone, he/she does this because it's more important to them to save someone. My kids are more important to me than my discomfort. My mother's kids are less important than her discomfort. It has nothing to do with AS. It has to do with choice. AS does not make one stupid, or unable to make choices, or unable to see reality, or unable to make rational decisions, or unable to do difficult things, nor does it excuse us from bad behavior. I know people who are affected by autism much more than myself (symptomwise for lack of a better way of describing it) who similarly live decent lives toward those loved ones around them. I think that selfishness and bad behavior can be addressed apart from AS, particularly if the person subscribes to a religious belief system or any system with moral values of any kind. At the very least it can be pointed out to them how their behavior is not lining up with their own belief.

Hope something I've rambled on about helps!

Jennie AS married with 3 kids

Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Helen,

Thanks for thinking through this for me.

I was in a marriage with her for 14-years. I've seen very very peculiar behaviors at the most intimate level that aren't normal. I may never be certain, but the combination of traits seem to match AS criteria very closely. I was on this list a lot in 2008 using a different email which I changed for confidentiality. I believe that Bill and others here can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the description of her behaviors I've given. Further, I believe one of my sons has AS, and his behavior resembles her in many ways.

As sad as it sounds, there's no doubt that the lone therapist (whom I never met) led her toward divorce and validated her negative and irrational comments. Afterward, a mutual friend intervened and contacted this therapist to find out what went on there and found that that's what happened. Further, my wife basically admits that that's what happened, but said ultimately it was her (my wife's) decision to divorce. Also, the therapist (a family therapist who probably doesn't know how to spell AS) told my wife that she doesn't have AS. I may report them in the future, but for now, I'm wondering if there's any way that that therapist center can help us now. The problem now is two-fold: That she's seeking divorce, and her hostility toward me is bad for all of us.

She takes care of most of the kids' "basic" needs like giving our 5-yr old baths, feeding them, etc. She was unusually nurturing when they were babies. It was a beautiful sight.

However, as they've grown, I've noticed that she's not affectionate at all. She never ever touches my 13-year old daughter and will say "I love you" to the younger ones only when she's walking out or something like that. No spontaneous affection. She'll often make comments to my 13 yr old like "you never help", and my daughter goes ballistic. It makes my daughter crazy. I understand since that's what I endured for all the years.

My wife basically is missing an element of warmth that normal mothers seem to have. She'll never say "sorry" to help a situation. She's always right and will almost always escalate an argument rather than making peace. Plus, she can't handle all the kids especially with my self-dx 12yr old son. When I'm away, my 13 year old is usually asking me to come home and help. My kids don't know about the divorce yet.

Thanks for listening.

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on #1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be reported to some higher body.Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up marriages.It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses cling to the AS label as a "silver bullet" that will save the marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.- Helen At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:>>>Helen,>>Good question. If she has AS, then>>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she >might have been>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family >therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.>>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her >behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.>>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE "adapt" to my >needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection >with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find >some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the >decimation of my family.>>Those are some of my initial thoughts.>>Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Great post .

Greg, it sounds to me like you are putting a lot of blame on AS for your wife's behavior in the hope that if it is caused by something concrete like AS, you can better understand and then fix or "cure" it. That is understandable, but given the limited facts you have described, at best it's probably not too realistic a view, and at worst you may be prolonging agony and grief for yourself and your family.

I applaud you for wanting to understand AS but as you understand more of it you will come to see that it is probably not the root of your relationship's ills. It took me 7 or 8 years of reading, research and understanding before I came to that point. It's natural at this stage of your grief that you are needing to find "the cause" and maybe even wanting to assign blame, as you said you are feeling that you wasted a lot of years together. But hopefully, if you continue what seems like thoughtful analysis in this way, you will not stop at the AS wall (or be stopped by it), but will climb up and over it. Hopeflly you will get around to the point that even if you come to think that your wife does not have AS, you will still accept her decision and your part in it. As two people who will have to parent together for a long time it is better if you are not assigning blame, and are simply taking responsibility for you, rather than trying to change her.

I don't think there is any possibility of trying to stay together when your wife clearly does not want that, and it may take your focus away from more important issues like getting a job, being able to support yourself and possibly your children, healing emotionally, and moving on with your life.. She has already filed for divorce, and unlike marriage which takes two, it only takes one person for a divorce. You have also (I went back and read old posts) described a situation where your wife seemed to grow progressively unhappier in the marriage, you had some financial issues, you lost your job at least one other time which always causes stress in a marriage for you as much as for her, and it sounds like you two grew apart rather than together and for whatever reason she has now decided it was time to get out of the marriage. You may not have realized that she was feeling so resentful toward you and she may have felt stuck in the marriage and dissatisfied but while you were earning money to support you she tolerated it. Maybe she is the most self centered woman in the world (which could be many things beyond AS), but whatever is her cause, she is now looking at this current situation as her chance to get out. And you may find you were not being honest with yourself and your own needs were not being fulfilled either but you simply didn't consider ending the marriage or didn't want to think about it, but you may ultimately find that you and your wife will get along better and be better parents, living apart.

I am not overly concerned about your wife's relationship with your children as you have not said anything she's done to harm them and said that she was in fact generally a good mother in terms of taking care of the children's physical needs. Women and teenaged daughters butting heads is nothing new and it is certainly easier to show affection to young children than to teenagers who are possibly sassing you, questioning your authority, etc. She may need better parenting skills in her toolbox but it may not have a thing to do with AS.

I'm not trying to be harsh but I am a divorce lawyer and have seen over and over where women and men are in unhappy marriages that the men or women miss the cues for and the husbands or the wives stay in the marriages because of the children or for financial security and then something happens and they want out. And then they get out and in hindsight, become better people for it because there was a lot they were not facing themselves. Having to live together while divorcing is certainly not fun and often brings a lot of bitterness out -- maybe she is trying extra hard to drive you away because she feels you are still trying to work on the marriage and in her mind that isn't going to happen. It seems to me that changing some of your behavior toward her toward acceptance of you living separate and not wanting to "change her mind" or change her course, you may be more successful in getting along. Certainly it is a very hard thing to do.

As far as the therapist, people often go to therapists who (sometimes not even consciously but out of sympathy) will tell people what they want to hear, and sometimes no matter what is being said, the patient in therapy will hear what they want to hear. The therapist may have validated her which gave her courage but I strongly suspect she was having those feelings before she went to the therapist. I wouldn't waste any time trying to "correct" the therapist.

You sound like a very nice person who should be commended for trying to deal with a difficult situation facing the end of your marriage, an end you didn't ask for, but it sounds like maybe it will be an end to some things that just weren't working very well and I hope that time will help heal these wounds. Give your children lots of hugs and get some good advice on you and your wife, together, telling your children that you will not be staying married. Your kids will need to see you both on the same page, there, to minimize their trauma, and it may take some real effort to get your wife on the same page with you to accomplish that. That would be my focus, if I were you.

Good Luck.

Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Helen,

Thanks for thinking through this for me.

I was in a marriage with her for 14-years. I've seen very very peculiar behaviors at the most intimate level that aren't normal. I may never be certain, but the combination of traits seem to match AS criteria very closely. I was on this list a lot in 2008 using a different email which I changed for confidentiality. I believe that Bill and others here can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the description of her behaviors I've given. Further, I believe one of my sons has AS, and his behavior resembles her in many ways.

As sad as it sounds, there's no doubt that the lone therapist (whom I never met) led her toward divorce and validated her negative and irrational comments. Afterward, a mutual friend intervened and contacted this therapist to find out what went on there and found that that's what happened. Further, my wife basically admits that that's what happened, but said ultimately it was her (my wife's) decision to divorce. Also, the therapist (a family therapist who probably doesn't know how to spell AS) told my wife that she doesn't have AS. I may report them in the future, but for now, I'm wondering if there's any way that that therapist center can help us now. The problem now is two-fold: That she's seeking divorce, and her hostility toward me is bad for all of us.

She takes care of most of the kids' "basic" needs like giving our 5-yr old baths, feeding them, etc. She was unusually nurturing when they were babies. It was a beautiful sight.

However, as they've grown, I've noticed that she's not affectionate at all. She never ever touches my 13-year old daughter and will say "I love you" to the younger ones only when she's walking out or something like that. No spontaneous affection. She'll often make comments to my 13 yr old like "you never help", and my daughter goes ballistic. It makes my daughter crazy. I understand since that's what I endured for all the years.

My wife basically is missing an element of warmth that normal mothers seem to have. She'll never say "sorry" to help a situation. She's always right and will almost always escalate an argument rather than making peace. Plus, she can't handle all the kids especially with my self-dx 12yr old son. When I'm away, my 13 year old is usually asking me to come home and help. My kids don't know about the divorce yet.

Thanks for listening.

On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Helen Foisy <hfoisysasktel (DOT) net> wrote:

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on #1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be reported to some higher body.Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up marriages.It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses cling to the AS label as a "silver bullet" that will save the marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.- Helen At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:>>>Helen,>>Good question. If she has AS, then>>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she >might have been>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family >therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.>>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her >behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.>>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE "adapt" to my >needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection >with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find >some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the >decimation of my family.>>Those are some of my initial thoughts.>>Thanks.

[Guest guest]

gregnewlife@... wrote:

>

> Bill & everyone,

>

> Sorry for the delay in responding.

>

> What is a *sufficient condition* for a dx of AS?

There is none. That's right - none!

If there were, we'd have a reliable and (nearly) fool-proof TEST - and

we don't.

>

> There is definitely significant " impairment of reciprocal social

> communication " , that is equally apparent toward me and the kids. For

> example:

>

Nothing in the list below qualifies as " sufficient " . I don't think you

understand the formal criteria for AS.

>

> - circle conversations (I'm cold = her response: I'm also cold)

>

> - no spontaneous affection

>

> - no initiative physically or verbally, i.e., a kiss or to give any

> positive feedback.

>

> - extreme narcissistic responses (Let's have a guest = her response: you

> just want to make me work)

>

> - The list goes on and on.

[ snip your earlier post; my response to it, in part, below ]

>

> Showing affection, or not, is NOT a criterion for AS. Nor is it a

> *sufficient condition* for a dx of AS.

>

> The single most important *necessary* condition for a dx of AS is

> _impairment of reciprocal social communication_ -- in whatever way it

> manifests.

>

> * Impairment

> * Reciprocal

> * Social

> * Communication

>

> Each and every one of those four words (or their equivalent in meaning)

> is important. Without any one of them, any " dx " _of AS_ is false/wrong

> ...by current professional standards.

[ snip ]

- Bill, dx AS; ...and NOT a mental-health professional

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I can't find a personal name attached to the posts from " gregnewlife "

that I've saved. So following Jennie's lead earlier I'm going to

address you as " Greg " .

--------------------------------------------------------

Jennie Unknown wrote:

> Greg,

> I am an AS woman. I would agree that AS is underdiagnosed in women. I

> think because women tend to be able to cover better and because AS

> affects women slightly differently than men.

>

> If your wife does not see that she is AS then any solution will have to

> be whatever you can get done.... regardless of AS. Your options are

> limited without her cooperation.

[ snip ]

--------------------------------------------------------

Greg, in an earlier post you said: " I believe that Bill and others here

can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the

description of her behaviors I've given. "

Sorry. Like others who've responded to you, I *don't* read much in your

descriptions of your wife's behavior that convincingly says " AS " to me.

Clearly, *you* are unhappy in your marriage, and I'm very sorry over

that. I'm sorry too for *your wife's* apparent unhappiness.

That said, Jennie is right: " Your options are limited without her

cooperation " . Your wife's, that is.

But of course, it's a two-way street:

Thinking back to the very beginning of your marriage, have you ever

considered: *her* options have been as limited as yours, without *your*

cooperation with her?

That's a truism maybe; but especially so if your wife *were* AS.

Because you'd be as much " at fault " as she. It takes two to tango in

reciprocal communication.

Speaking to that: What I *do* read in your posts is your conviction that

she *is* AS, ...and that's. simply. that.

Why are you eager to pin a label on her? And why that one? I don't

read anything that qualifies as either necessary OR sufficient for an

evaluation/dx of AS.

- Bill, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

gregnewlife@... wrote:

> Helen,

>

> Good question. If she has AS, then

>

> 1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she might

> have been

> unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family therapists. If

> so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.

Lack of self-confidence is not a criterion. Sometimes, *too much* of it

becomes a problem; but still it's not an AS criterion.

>

> 2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her behavior is

> abnormal and contrary to her best interests.

Her behavior may not be abnormal. I can conceive of situations where

what you describe may be her only recourse *in* her best interest.

>

> 3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE " adapt " to my

> needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection with

Marriage is a two-way street. NT/AS marriages *need to be* a two-way

street to survive. In any case, *you* need to adapt to *her* needs, as

much as she to yours.

> enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find some

> common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the

> decimation of my family.

[ snip ]

Hmm. It's *her* family too, nicht wahr?

But " common ground " is possible, fershur. It takes *work*, and *both*

partners must participate. It's " reciprocal " , right?

> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Helen Foisy <hfoisy@...

> > wrote:

> What I'm wondering here is why it matters whether or not it's AS.

> Doesn't sound like much of a marriage to me and that is mainly what

> matters, right?

> - Helen

>

> At 05:25 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:

> >Jennie,

> >

> >She has no friends, and as I pointed out, many of the traits apply

> >equally to both me and the kids which eliminates our relationship as

> >a factor.

No; it does not eliminate it at all. The inter-personal dynamics of a

marriage can, and do generate some surprising things. And mask many others.

> >

> >I believe her assortment of traits strongly point to criteria for an

> >AS dx.

They do not. Despite your belief, as you portray them they just don't.

> > And even each one of them alone is more than a personality

> >characteristic. Each is excessive and obsessive crossing the line

> >of normality. For example, even if I teach her and beg her not to

> >go into circle conversations, she " can't " stop it.

[ end of post ]

- Bill, dx AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Forgive me for interjecting here, since this was addressed to Jennie,

not me, but I had to comment:

At 07:51 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:

>If she has AS, then any solution will be entirely different than it

>would be for a " cold " person.

This is what concerns me. What makes you so sure the reason why she's

" cold " is due to AS? There could be a whole multitude of reasons, but

the most glaring one is she simply doesn't love you anymore.

" Proving " she has AS will not make her suddenly wake up and think,

" oh, I want to be married again. " In fact she might be really

frightened that a spouse would go to the extent of having her

labelled in order to force her to stay in the marriage. Like

something out of Stepford wives.

I've said it before - some people cling to the AS label as if it was

a magic bullet that would solve everything. No, it doesn't. And as a

person who counts myself as AS I deeply resent the fact that people

use this label in this way.

> Basically, she can't engage in a give-and-take conversation. I

> assume therapy designed for AS adults will ideally workaround this

> and other weaknesses.

While I'm sure this trait must present challenges to your wife, it's

really up to her if she wants to be " fixed. " Her social difficulties

and her desire to end the marriage are two entirely separate issues

here. It's only the second issue that you need to be concerned with.

The other part is up to her.

> I believe that trying to dance around the AS label only undermines

> efforts to deal with this situation.

What is left to deal with? The marriage is over. She doesn't love you

anymore and she wants a divorce. Obviously you don't feel the same

way, but this is life. I've tried to look at this from your point of

view (see my previous post) but here is the one thing that really

bothers me: Do you REALLY believe that she isn't in her right mind

due to AS and if somehow she could get " help " for AS then the

marriage would be saved? If that's what you think, good God, this is

frightening!!!

The other thing I question is if you are trying to use a mental

health label to pin all the " blame " on her with a view custody,

alimony issues? We've seen other members on this list try that too.

Forgive me but I'm really, really trying to understand where this is

going. I don't understand why you want to hold on to someone who has

made it clear they don't love you anymore and they want a divorce.

This is not healthy modelling for your kids.

> btw she turns her back during intimacy. I understand that's not a

> criterion, but another red-flag for AS.

No, NO, NOOOOO it isn't!!!!!

> I love my wife despite the difficulties. The degree of hostility

> only reaffirms that there's something extraordinarily wrong, and I

> believe that that something is AS.

With this statement, it is apparent you really want to believe that

the reason why she doesn't love you anymore is due to AS. And

furthermore, if somehow, she could get " help " for AS, she would start

loving you again. On the face of it, this is much the way a stalker

thinks too. Stop this now.

People stop loving other people sometimes. Sometimes there is a good

reason for that, sometimes there isn't. Pinning it on AS, or being

blonde, or belonging to a different religion, or any old reason, is

just ... creepy. The reasons don't matter - accept it and let go

already. Sorry for the " tough love " but you need to wake up and smell

the coffee. Obviously she has *never* been a warm and receptive wife

so why do you want to hang on? She isn't the last woman on earth, you

know. Find someone else who is deserving of the kind of loving

attention, loyalty and devotion you have to give them.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Me interspersed preceded by 'Jennie:'

Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie

Isolation

> Forgive me for interjecting here, since this was addressed to Jennie,

> not me, but I had to comment:

>

> At 07:51 PM 12/28/2009, Gregnewlife wrote:

>>If she has AS, then any solution will be entirely different than it

>>would be for a " cold " person.

>

> This is what concerns me. What makes you so sure the reason why she's

> " cold " is due to AS?

Jennie: I agree. AS does not equal 'cold'. I'm AS but not cold, in fact in

my marriage I've been on the other side of this table.

>There could be a whole multitude of reasons, but

> the most glaring one is she simply doesn't love you anymore.

Jennie: Or she doesn't feel loved. Women (in general) become non responsive

when they do not feel loved. This might be because they really aren't loved

or because they just aren't feeling loved because their spouse doesn't know

how to show love in a way they understand.

> " Proving " she has AS will not make her suddenly wake up and think,

> " oh, I want to be married again. " In fact she might be really

> frightened that a spouse would go to the extent of having her

> labelled in order to force her to stay in the marriage. Like

> something out of Stepford wives.

Jennie: True. I have a relative trying to get people to think his wife needs

to be hospitalized for mental health reasons just because she left

him...it's not going over well.

>

> I've said it before - some people cling to the AS label as if it was

> a magic bullet that would solve everything. No, it doesn't. And as a

> person who counts myself as AS I deeply resent the fact that people

> use this label in this way.

Jennie: Yep. An AS diagnosis does not solve anything. It just maybe makes

folks feel like the person would love them but they are just incapable of it

which might be why so many fight so ferociously in their attempts to show AS

equals coldness or lack of affection when it in fact does NOT.

>

>> Basically, she can't engage in a give-and-take conversation. I

>> assume therapy designed for AS adults will ideally workaround this

>> and other weaknesses.

>

> While I'm sure this trait must present challenges to your wife, it's

> really up to her if she wants to be " fixed. " Her social difficulties

> and her desire to end the marriage are two entirely separate issues

> here. It's only the second issue that you need to be concerned with.

> The other part is up to her.

>

>> I believe that trying to dance around the AS label only undermines

>> efforts to deal with this situation.

>

> What is left to deal with? The marriage is over. She doesn't love you

> anymore and she wants a divorce. Obviously you don't feel the same

> way, but this is life. I've tried to look at this from your point of

> view (see my previous post) but here is the one thing that really

> bothers me: Do you REALLY believe that she isn't in her right mind

> due to AS and if somehow she could get " help " for AS then the

> marriage would be saved? If that's what you think, good God, this is

> frightening!!!

Jennie: Yah, AS does not equal inability, lack of affection, insecurity, or

narcissism.

>

> The other thing I question is if you are trying to use a mental

> health label to pin all the " blame " on her with a view custody,

> alimony issues? We've seen other members on this list try that too.

> Forgive me but I'm really, really trying to understand where this is

> going. I don't understand why you want to hold on to someone who has

> made it clear they don't love you anymore and they want a divorce.

> This is not healthy modelling for your kids.

Jennie: Yes the kids issue should be dealt with in regard to whether or not

your wife is actually a danger to them. AS is neither here nor there, it is

not relevant. Lots of AS folk make good parents. We don't need a precedent

set in the justice system that says a diagnosis of AS equals grounds for

taking custody of kids away from a parent.

>

>> btw she turns her back during intimacy. I understand that's not a

>> criterion, but another red-flag for AS.

>

> No, NO, NOOOOO it isn't!!!!!

Jennie: No, No, No, I'm with Helen. Not anything to do with AS.

>

>> I love my wife despite the difficulties. The degree of hostility

>> only reaffirms that there's something extraordinarily wrong, and I

>> believe that that something is AS.

Jennie: The degree of hostility could be caused by many other things. Your

own behavior for example. Not saying it is, just saying it COULD be. We

don't know you from Adam so we don't know the whole story. From my own

perspective my husband spent many years pretending to be an innocent

bystander who could do no wrong and persisted in treating me like crap and

pretending like he had no idea why I was angry at him. He appeared to be the

original nice young man to all around us while I, being AS, appeared to be

the one with the problems, but as my husband will now admit... he was the

one with the problems morally and characterwise where as I did not. He had a

habit of doing something mean and then getting angry at me for not accepting

the mean thing he just did. Then he would turn it around and say, " Why don't

you just accept me the way I am. " The problem was 'the way he was' included

treating me rotten, but in his view I was not allowed an opinion about that.

Just saying....NOT judging you or saying you've done anything but as Bill

said it takes TWO so have you sat yourself down and examined your own

behavior? THAT is what is in YOUR power. You can't change her. You can't

make her think something or believe something or be who you want her to be

but you CAN look at yourself and just check to see if there are things YOU

might improve on. If nothing else it will make a better you for your future

life.

Like Helen, I'm sorry for the 'tough love' but I know what it is like to

feel helpless to change something that is terribly wrong, in the end you

have only power over your own behavior and your own choices. You will

destroy yourself if you keep pounding your head on the brick wall of 'if I

could just get her to accept she is AS and get her some AS based

counseling'.

Jennie AS -not cold

>

> With this statement, it is apparent you really want to believe that

> the reason why she doesn't love you anymore is due to AS. And

> furthermore, if somehow, she could get " help " for AS, she would start

> loving you again. On the face of it, this is much the way a stalker

> thinks too. Stop this now.

>

> People stop loving other people sometimes. Sometimes there is a good

> reason for that, sometimes there isn't. Pinning it on AS, or being

> blonde, or belonging to a different religion, or any old reason, is

> just ... creepy. The reasons don't matter - accept it and let go

> already. Sorry for the " tough love " but you need to wake up and smell

> the coffee. Obviously she has *never* been a warm and receptive wife

> so why do you want to hang on? She isn't the last woman on earth, you

> know. Find someone else who is deserving of the kind of loving

> attention, loyalty and devotion you have to give them.

> - Helen

>

[Guest guest]

Bill, Helen, Jennie and ,

 

Just a quick note to thank you all for your thoughtful feedback while I absorb and think through all of your comments.

 

 

 

 

Me interspersed preceded by 'Jennie:' Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie

Isolation

> Forgive me for interjecting here, since this was addressed to Jennie,> not me, but I had to comment:>

> At 07:51 PM 12/28/2009, Gregnewlife wrote:>>If she has AS, then any solution will be entirely different than it>>would be for a " cold " person.>> This is what concerns me. What makes you so sure the reason why she's

> " cold " is due to AS?Jennie: I agree. AS does not equal 'cold'. I'm AS but not cold, in fact in my marriage I've been on the other side of this table. >There could be a whole multitude of reasons, but> the most glaring one is she simply doesn't love you anymore.Jennie: Or she doesn't feel loved. Women (in general) become non responsive

when they do not feel loved. This might be because they really aren't loved or because they just aren't feeling loved because their spouse doesn't know how to show love in a way they understand. > " Proving " she has AS will not make her suddenly wake up and think,> " oh, I want to be married again. " In fact she might be really> frightened that a spouse would go to the extent of having her

> labelled in order to force her to stay in the marriage. Like> something out of Stepford wives.Jennie: True. I have a relative trying to get people to think his wife needs to be hospitalized for mental health reasons just because she left

him...it's not going over well. >> I've said it before - some people cling to the AS label as if it was> a magic bullet that would solve everything. No, it doesn't. And as a> person who counts myself as AS I deeply resent the fact that people

> use this label in this way.Jennie: Yep. An AS diagnosis does not solve anything. It just maybe makes folks feel like the person would love them but they are just incapable of it which might be why so many fight so ferociously in their attempts to show AS

equals coldness or lack of affection when it in fact does NOT. >>> Basically, she can't engage in a give-and-take conversation. I>> assume therapy designed for AS adults will ideally workaround this>> and other weaknesses.

>> While I'm sure this trait must present challenges to your wife, it's> really up to her if she wants to be " fixed. " Her social difficulties> and her desire to end the marriage are two entirely separate issues

> here. It's only the second issue that you need to be concerned with.> The other part is up to her.>>> I believe that trying to dance around the AS label only undermines>> efforts to deal with this situation.

>> What is left to deal with? The marriage is over. She doesn't love you> anymore and she wants a divorce. Obviously you don't feel the same> way, but this is life. I've tried to look at this from your point of

> view (see my previous post) but here is the one thing that really> bothers me: Do you REALLY believe that she isn't in her right mind> due to AS and if somehow she could get " help " for AS then the

> marriage would be saved? If that's what you think, good God, this is> frightening!!!Jennie: Yah, AS does not equal inability, lack of affection, insecurity, or narcissism. >> The other thing I question is if you are trying to use a mental> health label to pin all the " blame " on her with a view custody,> alimony issues? We've seen other members on this list try that too.

> Forgive me but I'm really, really trying to understand where this is> going. I don't understand why you want to hold on to someone who has> made it clear they don't love you anymore and they want a divorce.

> This is not healthy modelling for your kids.Jennie: Yes the kids issue should be dealt with in regard to whether or not your wife is actually a danger to them. AS is neither here nor there, it is

not relevant. Lots of AS folk make good parents. We don't need a precedent set in the justice system that says a diagnosis of AS equals grounds for taking custody of kids away from a parent. >>> btw she turns her back during intimacy. I understand that's not a>> criterion, but another red-flag for AS.>> No, NO, NOOOOO it isn't!!!!!

Jennie: No, No, No, I'm with Helen. Not anything to do with AS. >>> I love my wife despite the difficulties. The degree of hostility>> only reaffirms that there's something extraordinarily wrong, and I>> believe that that something is AS.

Jennie: The degree of hostility could be caused by many other things. Your own behavior for example. Not saying it is, just saying it COULD be. We don't know you from Adam so we don't know the whole story. From my own

perspective my husband spent many years pretending to be an innocent bystander who could do no wrong and persisted in treating me like crap and pretending like he had no idea why I was angry at him. He appeared to be the

original nice young man to all around us while I, being AS, appeared to be the one with the problems, but as my husband will now admit... he was the one with the problems morally and characterwise where as I did not. He had a

habit of doing something mean and then getting angry at me for not accepting the mean thing he just did. Then he would turn it around and say, " Why don't you just accept me the way I am. " The problem was 'the way he was' included

treating me rotten, but in his view I was not allowed an opinion about that. Just saying....NOT judging you or saying you've done anything but as Bill said it takes TWO so have you sat yourself down and examined your own

behavior? THAT is what is in YOUR power. You can't change her. You can't make her think something or believe something or be who you want her to be but you CAN look at yourself and just check to see if there are things YOU

might improve on. If nothing else it will make a better you for your future life.Like Helen, I'm sorry for the 'tough love' but I know what it is like to feel helpless to change something that is terribly wrong, in the end you

have only power over your own behavior and your own choices. You will destroy yourself if you keep pounding your head on the brick wall of 'if I could just get her to accept she is AS and get her some AS based

counseling'.Jennie AS -not cold >> With this statement, it is apparent you really want to believe that> the reason why she doesn't love you anymore is due to AS. And> furthermore, if somehow, she could get " help " for AS, she would start

> loving you again. On the face of it, this is much the way a stalker> thinks too. Stop this now.>> People stop loving other people sometimes. Sometimes there is a good> reason for that, sometimes there isn't. Pinning it on AS, or being

> blonde, or belonging to a different religion, or any old reason, is> just ... creepy. The reasons don't matter - accept it and let go> already. Sorry for the " tough love " but you need to wake up and smell

> the coffee. Obviously she has *never* been a warm and receptive wife> so why do you want to hang on? She isn't the last woman on earth, you> know. Find someone else who is deserving of the kind of loving

> attention, loyalty and devotion you have to give them.> - Helen>

[Guest guest]

If anyone wants to call me, " Hey you " , works for me.

> > Greg,

> > I am an AS woman. I would agree that AS is underdiagnosed in women. I

> > think because women tend to be able to cover better and because AS

> > affects women slightly differently than men.

> >

> > If your wife does not see that she is AS then any solution will have to

> > be whatever you can get done.... regardless of AS. Your options are

> > limited without her cooperation.

> [ snip ]

> --------------------------------------------------------

>

> Greg, in an earlier post you said: " I believe that Bill and others here

> can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the

> description of her behaviors I've given. "

>

> Sorry. Like others who've responded to you, I *don't* read much in your

> descriptions of your wife's behavior that convincingly says " AS " to me.

>

> Clearly, *you* are unhappy in your marriage, and I'm very sorry over

> that. I'm sorry too for *your wife's* apparent unhappiness.

>

> That said, Jennie is right: " Your options are limited without her

> cooperation " . Your wife's, that is.

>

> But of course, it's a two-way street:

> Thinking back to the very beginning of your marriage, have you ever

> considered: *her* options have been as limited as yours, without *your*

> cooperation with her?

> That's a truism maybe; but especially so if your wife *were* AS.

> Because you'd be as much " at fault " as she. It takes two to tango in

> reciprocal communication.

>

> Speaking to that: What I *do* read in your posts is your conviction that

> she *is* AS, ...and that's. simply. that.

> Why are you eager to pin a label on her? And why that one? I don't

> read anything that qualifies as either necessary OR sufficient for an

> evaluation/dx of AS.

>

> - Bill, dx AS

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Hey You,Don't call me "late for supper"! : ~ )To: aspires-relationships Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 4:23:22 PMSubject: Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

If anyone wants to call me, "Hey you", works for me.

> > Greg,

> > I am an AS woman. I would agree that AS is underdiagnosed in women. I

> > think because women tend to be able to cover better and because AS

> > affects women slightly differently than men.

> >

> > If your wife does not see that she is AS then any solution will have to

> > be whatever you can get done.... regardless of AS. Your options are

> > limited without her cooperation.

> [ snip ]

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------

>

> Greg, in an earlier post you said: "I believe that Bill and others here

> can at least see that there are indications she may have AS based on the

> description of her behaviors I've given."

>

> Sorry. Like others who've responded to you, I *don't* read much in your

> descriptions of your wife's behavior that convincingly says "AS" to me.

>

> Clearly, *you* are unhappy in your marriage, and I'm very sorry over

> that. I'm sorry too for *your wife's* apparent unhappiness.

>

> That said, Jennie is right: "Your options are limited without her

> cooperation" . Your wife's, that is.

>

> But of course, it's a two-way street:

> Thinking back to the very beginning of your marriage, have you ever

> considered: *her* options have been as limited as yours, without *your*

> cooperation with her?

> That's a truism maybe; but especially so if your wife *were* AS.

> Because you'd be as much "at fault" as she. It takes two to tango in

> reciprocal communication.

>

> Speaking to that: What I *do* read in your posts is your conviction that

> she *is* AS, ...and that's. simply. that.

> Why are you eager to pin a label on her? And why that one? I don't

> read anything that qualifies as either necessary OR sufficient for an

> evaluation/dx of AS.

>

> - Bill, dx AS

>

> --

> WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Late for supper...

>

> Hey You,

>

> Don't call me " late for supper " !

>

> : ~ )

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am not emailing you for a million microseconds-oops- it's over!To: aspires-relationships Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 3:07:30 PMSubject: Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Late for supper...

>

> Hey You,

>

> Don't call me "late for supper"!

>

> : ~ )

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hahahahahhahahahahaahhhaa... you crack me up, ... LOL

> >

> > Hey You,

> >

> > Don't call me " late for supper " !

> >

> > : ~ )

> >

> >

> >

> >

>