Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

Sarcastic and cynical, you can throw in cruel too. Yes. What book did you read? I like to get as much info as possible and educate myself. I prefer to avoid getting stuck in a pattern of picking the same type of person too, and i know that happens a lot. The sarcasm, made me crazy. I never knew if he was being serious or not and he would never tell me, he said I should be able to figure it out. Now I think it was really an excuse to say whatever mean things he wanted and get away with it. Subject: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie

IsolationTo: aspires-relationships Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:25 PM

,I can't seem to delete just a bit of a conversation- some yahoo thing- I have felt like my life was a mess too- and feel like I have gone through some of this same thing. I read a book that explained some of it, and helped me to choose partners a lot better- i need to look for someone who is kind and likes being kind and thinks well of that, rather than someone who loves being cruel and sarcastic and cynical. Do you feel that way too?From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To:

aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:30:11 PMSubject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

My ex was quite a bit like that. The book I read was, "Breaking the Cycle of Abuse: How to Move beyond Your Past to Create an Abuse-Free Future", by Beverly Engel. She also write a book entitled "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" which I have not yet read, but which looks good. My ex did not say "figure it out" too terribly much, but definitely did the other things- all three- and a lot of them. He told me that if he ever caused me physical pain, I should tell him he was hurting me to get him to stop, and his mother said the same instruction to tell him. In reflection, I believe that mine was AS as well, since clearly he could not read that I was in pain when I was. On the other hand, he did not expect me to be able to read his intent or read his face, and

used to ask me pointed questions about mine- like telling me not to use a pronoun so that what I said was clearer (though he said it in an accusatory fashion as if I had broken some rule). Not only am I AS, but have plenty of AS friends who do not do any of these things. Yours seems to know that you can read people.To: aspires-relationships Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 11:47:50 PMSubject: Re: :

Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Sarcastic and cynical, you can throw in cruel too. Yes. What book did you read? I like to get as much info as possible and educate myself. I prefer to avoid getting stuck in a pattern of picking the same type of person too, and i know that happens a lot. The sarcasm, made me crazy. I never knew if he was being serious or not and he would never tell me, he said I should be able to figure it out. Now I think it was really an excuse to say whatever mean things he wanted and get away with it. From: Princess <creativelywired@ yahoo.com>Subject: : [aspires-relationsh ips] Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie

IsolationTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:25 PM

,I can't seem to delete just a bit of a conversation- some yahoo thing- I have felt like my life was a mess too- and feel like I have gone through some of this same thing. I read a book that explained some of it, and helped me to choose partners a lot better- i need to look for someone who is kind and likes being kind and thinks well of that, rather than someone who loves being cruel and sarcastic and cynical. Do you feel that way too?From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To:

aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:30:11 PMSubject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the book titles, I'm going to check into them. I think the more educated I am the better, and I do think I'm dealing with a mish-mash of factors here. AS is definitely one, but he's always said he thinks he's OCD, that's the one he admits to, but there is more and understanding more about AS has helped me to see that. Those in this group who do have AS have helped make that clear. I recognize the AS tendencies, but from what I see from reading the posts and your responses is that the mean spirit is something else and not AS as that is not intentional. It's still tough to sort out things he said and did and decide for sure what was and was not intentional, but some of it just had to be intentional as I don't believe now that anyone with AS is mean spirited on purpose. Thank you (everyone!) for helping me see

that.About being able to read his face, I could definitely read the faces of others, but with him he would wonder why I couldn't but honestly, I never really saw but one expression when we were in certain types of discussion, so maybe he thought he was changing his expression when really he was not. I hadn't considered that until now. He also seemed to hate talking on the phone. He didn't say he hated it and didn't seem to purposely avoid it, but when his parents would call from out of state to visit, most of the time he would just sit there and not say a word while his Mom and Dad talked between themselves on the other end of the line. Then when I was sick and staying with family so I could receive the care he refused to participate in, he would call or I would call him and same thing, he'd pretty much just sit there while I did the talking. So I couldn't read body language

or facial expression at all, no chance of that, but no verbal communication to speak of either. Do you think this is an AS trait or something else? I've always been curious about that. It''s also something that frustrated his family to no end, especially when he moved far away and that was their main way of communicating. His Mom learned more about our lives by talking to me than she did talking to her own son. He didn't share anything, unless it was a face to face conversation, and even that was rare. As a result she and I had a great relationship and she feels terrible that we're going through the divorce process. At least he had a nice family! : ) It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That may clear up some of their questions as

well, they didn't ever deal with the meanness being directed at them that i did so that's not a factor with them. But the AS behavior definitely affected them. I would hope for them it would be a relief to know this, but I want to be educated enough to explain without having it sound like I'm saying he's broken and upsetting them. I care about their and his well being.

My ex was quite a bit like that. The book I read was, "Breaking the Cycle of Abuse: How to Move beyond Your Past to Create an Abuse-Free Future", by Beverly Engel. She also write a book entitled "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" which I have not yet read, but which looks good. My ex did not say "figure it out" too terribly much, but definitely did the other things- all three- and a lot of them. He told me that if he ever caused me physical pain, I should tell him he was hurting me to get him to stop, and his mother said the same instruction to tell him. In reflection, I believe that mine was AS as well, since clearly he could not read that I was in pain when I was. On the other hand, he did not expect me to be able to read his intent or read his face, and

used to ask me pointed questions about mine- like telling me not to use a pronoun so that what I said was clearer (though he said it in an accusatory fashion as if I had broken some rule). Not only am I AS, but have plenty of AS friends who do not do any of these things. Yours seems to know that you can read people.From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Fri, December 4, 2009 11:47:50 PMSubject: Re: :

[aspires-relationsh ips] Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Sarcastic and cynical, you can throw in cruel too. Yes. What book did you read? I like to get as much info as possible and educate myself. I prefer to avoid getting stuck in a pattern of picking the same type of person too, and i know that happens a lot. The sarcasm, made me crazy. I never knew if he was being serious or not and he would never tell me, he said I should be able to figure it out. Now I think it was really an excuse to say whatever mean things he wanted and get away with it. From: Princess <creativelywired@ yahoo.com>Subject: : [aspires-relationsh ips] Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie

IsolationTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:25 PM

,I can't seem to delete just a bit of a conversation- some yahoo thing- I have felt like my life was a mess too- and feel like I have gone through some of this same thing. I read a book that explained some of it, and helped me to choose partners a lot better- i need to look for someone who is kind and likes being kind and thinks well of that, rather than someone who loves being cruel and sarcastic and cynical. Do you feel that way too?From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To:

aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:30:11 PMSubject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

Hi ,I can only answer part of this. I am glad you like the book titles. If you read the one I do not have, let me know if you find it good, since I am planning to read it. I have generally been able to read emotion from tone of voice better than through faces anyway, so phone calls are a great equalizer to me- though online, I am better still. However, there are many AS who have difficulties with phone conversations more so than face-to-face: indeed, some of us are slow to process in social conversations (I can be at times), and I have been known to grab a piece of paper and write a few quick notes on the phone when one person goes on for a very long time so that I can keep track of all the details- so my slow processing is different from others, but

I have it. There are times when someone will say something to me, and it just won't come through as words- but if I simply say,"what?" and they repeat exactly the same thing, it is crystal clear, and I can respond. However, I have a number of friends who go nonverbal at times, and do not have words for things at all- especially when under stress. They are all on the spectrum, and many are AS (yes, I know quite a few people who have this). I can generally talk, though I do not really think in words but rather in pictures and logical connections and sequences and colors and music and more- multi-sensory- it is quicker and much more elegant (to me). I like words, and can slow it down and type them to you.I have several AS friends who specifically prefer face-to-face conversation to being on the phone.There is an additional problem that comes into it: depending on the nature of it, I am either fine with

small talk, or it completely gets away from me- though if i know someone well, then it is easier. Much of what you are describing falls into the category of -- generally-- small talk. I have plenty of AS friends who are terrible at that- if you ask them any factual question, they are great- like where the best place to buy Chinese food or green tea may be- and if they do not know, then they will Google it. If you ask them a question with a script like how are you, they will give you a decent reply. If you ask them what they did this week, they may not give you the kinds of answers you seek- it may be far too analytic- so your husband may have felt that you were doing a far better job of socializing than he would.OCD is a common AS trait (I do not have any, but I know many AS who do). One way to convince them he is AS is to Google the diagnostic criteria (but take them with a grain of salt- they are in the

process of being revised, and really do not tell all there is to know, and really can be a bit misleading). There are criteria that say, one of these and two of those and have checklists. One set is DSM IV- TR, but there are several others in use- especially internationally (DSM is only really used here in the USA as far as I know- there are others on this list who can comment quickly about this and likely know far more than I do). In my case, when I read the DSM criteria, I realized that I fit perfectly.I am not sure it is anything they will want to know. I think that that is hard for you- in wanting to help, but wondering if you can. To: aspires-relationships Sent: Sat, December 5, 2009 5:18:17 PMSubject: Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Thanks for the book titles, I'm going to check into them. I think the more educated I am the better, and I do think I'm dealing with a mish-mash of factors here. AS is definitely one, but he's always said he thinks he's OCD, that's the one he admits to, but there is more and understanding more about AS has helped me to see that. Those in this group who do have AS have helped make that clear. I recognize the AS tendencies, but from what I see from reading the posts and your responses is that the mean spirit is something else and not AS as that is not intentional. It's still tough to sort out things he said and did and decide for sure

what was and was not intentional, but some of it just had to be intentional as I don't believe now that anyone with AS is mean spirited on purpose. Thank you (everyone!) for helping me see

that.About being able to read his face, I could definitely read the faces of others, but with him he would wonder why I couldn't but honestly, I never really saw but one expression when we were in certain types of discussion, so maybe he thought he was changing his expression when really he was not. I hadn't considered that until now. He also seemed to hate talking on the phone. He didn't say he hated it and didn't seem to purposely avoid it, but when his parents would call from out of state to visit, most of the time he would just sit there and not say a word while his Mom and Dad talked between themselves on the other end of the line. Then when I was sick and staying with family so I could receive the care he refused to participate in, he would call or I would call him and same thing, he'd pretty much just sit there while I did the talking. So I couldn't read body language

or facial expression at all, no chance of that, but no verbal communication to speak of either. Do you think this is an AS trait or something else? I've always been curious about that. It''s also something that frustrated his family to no end, especially when he moved far away and that was their main way of communicating. His Mom learned more about our lives by talking to me than she did talking to her own son. He didn't share anything, unless it was a face to face conversation, and even that was rare. As a result she and I had a great relationship and she feels terrible that we're going through the divorce process. At least he had a nice family! : ) It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That may clear up some of their questions as

well, they didn't ever deal with the meanness being directed at them that i did so that's not a factor with them. But the AS behavior definitely affected them. I would hope for them it would be a relief to know this, but I want to be educated enough to explain without having it sound like I'm saying he's broken and upsetting them. I care about their and his well being.

My ex was quite a bit like that. The book I read was, "Breaking the Cycle of Abuse: How to Move beyond Your Past to Create an Abuse-Free Future", by Beverly Engel. She also write a book entitled "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" which I have not yet read, but which looks good. My ex did not say "figure it out" too terribly much, but definitely did the other things- all three- and a lot of them. He told me that if he ever caused me physical pain, I should tell him he was hurting me to get him to stop, and his mother said the same instruction to tell him. In reflection, I believe that mine was AS as well, since clearly he could not read that I was in pain when I was. On the other hand, he did not expect me to be able to read his intent or read his face, and

used to ask me pointed questions about mine- like telling me not to use a pronoun so that what I said was clearer (though he said it in an accusatory fashion as if I had broken some rule). Not only am I AS, but have plenty of AS friends who do not do any of these things. Yours seems to know that you can read people.From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Fri, December 4, 2009 11:47:50 PMSubject: Re: :

[aspires-relationsh ips] Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

D wrote:

> Thanks for the book titles, I'm going to check into them. I think the

> more educated I am the better, and I do think I'm dealing with a

> mish-mash of factors here. AS is definitely one, but he's always said

> he thinks he's OCD, that's the one he admits to, but there is more and

> understanding more about AS has helped me to see that. Those in this

> group who do have AS have helped make that clear. I recognize the AS

> tendencies,

It appears to me you *don't* " recognize the AS tendencies " !

> but from what I see from reading the posts and your

> responses is that the mean spirit is something else and not AS as that

> is not intentional.

[ snip ]

> It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also

> think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen

> them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That

> may clear up some of their questions as well,

Please! ...Be *very* careful with what you say to them about their son.

You may do far more harm to them than you know. To say nothing of

harm to him.

*Professionals* in the field have trouble diagnosing adult AS reliably.

> they didn't ever deal with

> the meanness being directed at them that i did so that's not a factor

> with them. But the AS behavior definitely affected them. I would hope

> for them it would be a relief to know this, but I want to be educated

> enough to explain without having it sound like I'm saying he's broken

> and upsetting them. I care about their and his well being.

Then start your own, personal, education by reading and *understanding*

the " official " AS criteria. Afterward, ask questions about what those

criteria *really mean*.

Do all that *before* talking to the parents about their son. Tell

them *nothing* that isn't provable, supportable fact.

Here are three sets of " official " criteria:

<http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wd-dsmiv.htm>

Other sites have lists too, even our own ASPIRES site. Some even

include explanatory notes in layman's terms.

- Bill, dx AS;

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Thank you Bill,I am very concerned about proceeding carefully here. I absolutely would not want to cause him or them more problems. I'm still not sure what I should do, if anything regarding his family. I do know for myself, had I known more back at the start I may have handled the situation better from my side. My heart hurts for his family. They feel in a way like I did, isolated from his life, and confused about the things that bother him so much that to them isn't a big deal. His mother didn't say it in those exact words but something like that. Most of what they saw and relayed to me about the behavior they wondered about were mainly sensory type issues, plus the need he had to isolate himself quite often. That's what I think, and I mean think,

not know, his AS tendencies are. Am I off on that? If I am, I'd appreciate your thoughts. One thing that bothers me is that when I would visit with his mother, almost always in the conversation, she would say something about him and then say she didn't know why is is that way. So I sense her frustration.Thinking about that, maybe I would be better off stating that I now recognize that some of the behaviors I wondered about are not AS, because you are right, there's a lot, a whole lot I don't know about AS, and I do know that everyone is different....but aren't we all? I've got my own set of issues just like everyone else. I will check out those links/lists, thank you so much for that

information. I felt like I'd exhausted all available information on the internet but through this group I've found that not to be true. Thanks again,

> Thanks for the book titles, I'm going to check into them. I think the

> more educated I am the better, and I do think I'm dealing with a

> mish-mash of factors here. AS is definitely one, but he's always said

> he thinks he's OCD, that's the one he admits to, but there is more and

> understanding more about AS has helped me to see that. Those in this

> group who do have AS have helped make that clear. I recognize the AS

> tendencies,

It appears to me you *don't* "recognize the AS tendencies"!

> but from what I see from reading the posts and your

> responses is that the mean spirit is something else and not AS as that

> is not intentional.

[ snip ]

> It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also

> think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen

> them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That

> may clear up some of their questions as well,

Please! ...Be *very* careful with what you say to them about their son.

You may do far more harm to them than you know. To say nothing of

harm to him.

*Professionals* in the field have trouble diagnosing adult AS reliably.

> they didn't ever deal with

> the meanness being directed at them that i did so that's not a factor

> with them. But the AS behavior definitely affected them. I would hope

> for them it would be a relief to know this, but I want to be educated

> enough to explain without having it sound like I'm saying he's broken

> and upsetting them. I care about their and his well being.

Then start your own, personal, education by reading and *understanding*

the "official" AS criteria. Afterward, ask questions about what those

criteria *really mean*.

Do all that *before* talking to the parents about their son. Tell

them *nothing* that isn't provable, supportable fact.

Here are three sets of "official" criteria:

<http://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wd-dsmiv. htm>

Other sites have lists too, even our own ASPIRES site. Some even

include explanatory notes in layman's terms.

- Bill, dx AS;

--

WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

, thank you.This makes sense to me. He would comment about small talk, he didn't like it. And unfortunately for quite some time, due to the illness I had at the time, I had not much in my life but that and small talk, which made it rough on me and he must have really not liked it. He did do better with most conversation in person, but only if the TV were off and there were no other distractions. And he told me I would have to say his name or he may not hear me. Sometimes, if the conversation was about something serious, such as money, or marriage he would cover his face with a pillow or blanket and then say, ok, we can talk now. If I asked him how work was, I never got much of an answer, so your response makes sense here. He is intelligent and he does know a lot of information. With his family,

if I do choose to discuss this with them, I know they use the computer a lot and if I can point them in the right direction so they don't have to search through so much material, they can decide for themselves. Maybe that would be more helpful than anything. I'll have to think about that.Thanks for the information again.Subject: Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie IsolationTo: aspires-relationships Date: Saturday, December 5, 2009, 11:37 PM

Hi ,I can only answer part of this. I am glad you like the book titles. If you read the one I do not have, let me know if you find it good, since I am planning to read it. I have generally been able to read emotion from tone of voice better than through faces anyway, so phone calls are a great equalizer to me- though online, I am better still. However, there are many AS who have difficulties with phone conversations more so than face-to-face: indeed, some of us are slow to process in social conversations (I can be at times), and I have been known to grab a piece of paper and write a few quick notes on the phone when one person goes on for a very long time so that I can keep track of all the details- so my slow processing is different from others, but

I have it. There are times when someone will say something to me, and it just won't come through as words- but if I simply say,"what?" and they repeat exactly the same thing, it is crystal clear, and I can respond. However, I have a number of friends who go nonverbal at times, and do not have words for things at all- especially when under stress. They are all on the spectrum, and many are AS (yes, I know quite a few people who have this). I can generally talk, though I do not really think in words but rather in pictures and logical connections and sequences and colors and music and more- multi-sensory- it is quicker and much more elegant (to me). I like words, and can slow it down and type them to you.I have several AS friends who specifically prefer face-to-face conversation to being on the phone.There is an additional problem that comes into it: depending on the nature of it, I am either fine with

small talk, or it completely gets away from me- though if i know someone well, then it is easier. Much of what you are describing falls into the category of -- generally-- small talk. I have plenty of AS friends who are terrible at that- if you ask them any factual question, they are great- like where the best place to buy Chinese food or green tea may be- and if they do not know, then they will Google it. If you ask them a question with a script like how are you, they will give you a decent reply. If you ask them what they did this week, they may not give you the kinds of answers you seek- it may be far too analytic- so your husband may have felt that you were doing a far better job of socializing than he would.OCD is a common AS trait (I do not have any, but I know many AS who do). One way to convince them he is AS is to Google the diagnostic criteria (but take them with a grain of salt- they are in the

process of being revised, and really do not tell all there is to know, and really can be a bit misleading). There are criteria that say, one of these and two of those and have checklists. One set is DSM IV- TR, but there are several others in use- especially internationally (DSM is only really used here in the USA as far as I know- there are others on this list who can comment quickly about this and likely know far more than I do). In my case, when I read the DSM criteria, I realized that I fit perfectly.I am not sure it is anything they will want to know. I think that that is hard for you- in wanting to help, but wondering if you can. From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Sat, December 5, 2009 5:18:17 PMSubject: Re: : [aspires-relationsh ips] Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

Thanks for the book titles, I'm going to check into them. I think the more educated I am the better, and I do think I'm dealing with a mish-mash of factors here. AS is definitely one, but he's always said he thinks he's OCD, that's the one he admits to, but there is more and understanding more about AS has helped me to see that. Those in this group who do have AS have helped make that clear. I recognize the AS tendencies, but from what I see from reading the posts and your responses is that the mean spirit is something else and not AS as that is not intentional. It's still tough to sort out things he said and did and decide for sure

what was and was not intentional, but some of it just had to be intentional as I don't believe now that anyone with AS is mean spirited on purpose. Thank you (everyone!) for helping me see

that.About being able to read his face, I could definitely read the faces of others, but with him he would wonder why I couldn't but honestly, I never really saw but one expression when we were in certain types of discussion, so maybe he thought he was changing his expression when really he was not. I hadn't considered that until now. He also seemed to hate talking on the phone. He didn't say he hated it and didn't seem to purposely avoid it, but when his parents would call from out of state to visit, most of the time he would just sit there and not say a word while his Mom and Dad talked between themselves on the other end of the line. Then when I was sick and staying with family so I could receive the care he refused to participate in, he would call or I would call him and same thing, he'd pretty much just sit there while I did the talking. So I couldn't read body language

or facial expression at all, no chance of that, but no verbal communication to speak of either. Do you think this is an AS trait or something else? I've always been curious about that. It''s also something that frustrated his family to no end, especially when he moved far away and that was their main way of communicating. His Mom learned more about our lives by talking to me than she did talking to her own son. He didn't share anything, unless it was a face to face conversation, and even that was rare. As a result she and I had a great relationship and she feels terrible that we're going through the divorce process. At least he had a nice family! : ) It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That may clear up some of their questions as

well, they didn't ever deal with the meanness being directed at them that i did so that's not a factor with them. But the AS behavior definitely affected them. I would hope for them it would be a relief to know this, but I want to be educated enough to explain without having it sound like I'm saying he's broken and upsetting them. I care about their and his well being.

My ex was quite a bit like that. The book I read was, "Breaking the Cycle of Abuse: How to Move beyond Your Past to Create an Abuse-Free Future", by Beverly Engel. She also write a book entitled "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" which I have not yet read, but which looks good. My ex did not say "figure it out" too terribly much, but definitely did the other things- all three- and a lot of them. He told me that if he ever caused me physical pain, I should tell him he was hurting me to get him to stop, and his mother said the same instruction to tell him. In reflection, I believe that mine was AS as well, since clearly he could not read that I was in pain when I was. On the other hand, he did not expect me to be able to read his intent or read his face, and

used to ask me pointed questions about mine- like telling me not to use a pronoun so that what I said was clearer (though he said it in an accusatory fashion as if I had broken some rule). Not only am I AS, but have plenty of AS friends who do not do any of these things. Yours seems to know that you can read people.From: D <duncaylyahoo (DOT) com>To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSent: Fri, December 4, 2009 11:47:50 PMSubject: Re: :

[aspires-relationsh ips] Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

I just had a thought. There were so many times my husband would say I exhausted him. I had no idea how I was doing that, I would ask him what I did that exhausted him so I and he would say he didn't know. Now, maybe I understand!!?? After the first few "you exhaust me" comments, I scaled back my conversation, this was mainly at dinner when he'd not been home from work long, if, and only if we were eating in the same room together, that was up to him - and rather than discussing anything big, or talking about any decisions we needed to make, I resorted to just a few sentences of "small talk" - how was work? etc...... If indeed he is someone who doesn't handle small talk well, then no wonder it exhausted him. Here I was trying my best to not stress him out with anything he had to think about but it had the exact

opposite result and of course that was not my intention. At dinner, I had never discussed serious matters or had heavy discussions about decisions which would stress anybody, but instead had what to me was plain conversation, which probably stressed him out, then I dropped it further to the very small talk category. So here he is coming home from work where he worked with of all things theatrical lighting which is very stimulating to the senses and he wanted to be in a quiet dark room with no sensory issues to recharge once he got home, although that was most of the time when he was home. Am I understanding things better now? I know one thing I talked to him about when there was some type of conflict once was that I had grown up thinking certain behavior and opinions that to me were normal or expected in my family, and he grew up with certain behavior and opinions that to him were normal and expected in his family.

NEITHER one was necessarily wrong, but we were battling two different sets of what we considered to be normal or expected. Normal may be the wrong word, but it's just meaning, that to us which is a familiar way of living. Like how to organize the kitchen, or how the bed is made, or how we view life in general, what our work ethic is, I think you get the idea, I didn't expect to agree on everything, but maybe something, one thing? Or compromise on one thing? marriage is tough enough at times the way it is, the blending of two sets of ideas and lifestyles and values. That conversation didn't go anywhere. It was a disaster. I'm not sure why I brought that up, it just came to mind.

[Guest guest]

> > It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also

> > think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen

> > them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That

> > may clear up some of their questions as well,

>

> Please! ...Be *very* careful with what you say to them about their son.

> You may do far more harm to them than you know. To say nothing of

> harm to him.

>

> *Professionals* in the field have trouble diagnosing adult AS reliably.

** Ja, if a person does not know what he/she is doing, best to leave to those

who are certified or licensed to do so. It is like the person who think he/she

knows how to perform CPR on someone but does not, and worse things happen to the

person trying to be resuscitated.

[Guest guest]

HI ,I don't know if you saw my other post, but I agree, I won't do anything about this without some very serious thought. I think If anything, I would only nudge them in the direction where they can do their own research and decide for themselves. I think this is a very dangerous area too, and the last thing I would want is to make it worse. But I do know there is one very frustrated family out there and i'm not sure if I could live with myself if I just walked away without at least a hint of what I've been studying. I can't say for sure he has AS, it's just an opinion that I'm struggling with myself. There may be other factors and maybe in the end it's not AS at all, I have no idea for sure at this point. I'm just looking for similarities and the sensory issues are such a big deal to him. So rest

assured, I don't want to do anything to destroy their family, or him, or the good relationship I have with his family. Thanks for your concern. : )I can only relate to it as this. Please bear with me as I try my best to express myself and make sense here. When I first got sick, I didn't recognize the symptoms myself (not that I'm saying AS is an illness..., but I myself was sick), and family had to step in and say, hey, there's something going on that maybe you should look into. As it was, had I not sought help I would have died. Now he's not going to die if in fact he has AS, so it's kind of a bad comparison, but the point is, caring people are what got me back on track as i was miserable and yet I was too sick to realize it, does that make any sense? He's told me himself he's not happy and that nothing makes him happy, he wasn't referring to just me, and his family is unhappy with him. I feel

stuck. Guilt if I do nothing, but risk if I say anything at all........Subject: Re: : Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie IsolationTo: aspires-relationships Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 9:46 AM

> > It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also

> > think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen

> > them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That

> > may clear up some of their questions as well,

>

> Please! ...Be *very* careful with what you say to them about their son.

> You may do far more harm to them than you know. To say nothing of

> harm to him.

>

> *Professionals* in the field have trouble diagnosing adult AS reliably.

** Ja, if a person does not know what he/she is doing, best to leave to those who are certified or licensed to do so. It is like the person who think he/she knows how to perform CPR on someone but does not, and worse things happen to the person trying to be resuscitated.

[Guest guest]

D wrote:

> Thank you Bill,

>

> I am very concerned about proceeding carefully here. I absolutely would

> not want to cause him or them more problems. I'm still not sure what I

> should do, if anything regarding his family.

I repeat: If you don't know your husband's " AS " status with reasonable

certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

knowledge!

{You don't need his consent; but it *is* HIS life you're playing with.)

The temptation to " help " , to get " everyone in sight " involved in the

issue, is always very strong. Also usually always a big mistake. Don't

make it.

> I do know for myself, had

> I known more back at the start I may have handled the situation better

> from my side. My heart hurts for his family. They feel in a way like I

> did, isolated from his life, and confused about the things that bother

> him so much that to them isn't a big deal. His mother didn't say it

> in those exact words but something like that. Most of what they saw and

> relayed to me about the behavior they wondered about were mainly sensory

> type issues, plus the need he had to isolate himself quite often.

> That's what I think, and I mean think, not know, his AS tendencies are.

> Am I off on that? If I am, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Mmm. " Off " on that? Yes.

You are *assuming* he's AS, then working from there to build a case

that he *is* AS.

Start like a professional: Assume nothing. Match the AS criteria to

his behavior. Do that *carefully* and accurately - this is a person's

*life* you're about to re-define!

If the criteria are NOT fully and fairly met, then *by definition*

he's not AS.

Don't try to make " ...well, but he's close " into a diagnosis. Close

isn't good enough. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, etc

etc etc.

Even then, *yours* is not a professional opinion. It remains

speculation. But now at least it's *informed* speculation. You can

begin to ask useful questions about details not covered by the criteria.

> One thing

> that bothers me is that when I would visit with his mother, almost

> always in the conversation, she would say something about him and then

> say she didn't know why is is that way. So I sense her frustration.

You're sensing something. I doubt it's " her frustration " .

I'd bet she knows *just like you do* many of the same things you're

talking about. That she " ...didn't know why (he) is that way " is her

way of saying exactly what you're saying: That you don't know either,

which is why you're here, on this List, asking questions.

You and the mother, both, are the blind leading the blind. It won't

help if you feed *her uncertainty* with *your* speculation.

Before you can help her/them, or him, and/or most especially *yourself*,

you *must* start playing with a full deck of accurate information.

Have you read and understood the " official " AS criteria yet?

>

> Thinking about that, maybe I would be better off stating that I now

> recognize that some of the behaviors I wondered about are not AS,

> because you are right, there's a lot, a whole lot I don't know about AS,

> and I do know that everyone is different....but aren't we

> all? I've got my own set of issues just like everyone else.

>

> I will check out those links/lists, thank you so much for that

> information. I felt like I'd exhausted all available information on the

> internet but through this group I've found that not to be true.

I know that my words above might feel like a dash of cold water in your

face. Me saying you shouldn't even try, or the like. NOT SO.

With care, starting from the right premises, you *can* do a good job

of self-education. I hope you do. For your sake and sake of all others

involved.

- Bill, dx AS; ...NOT a " mental-health professional "

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

At 01:20 PM 12/7/2009, Bill wrote:

>I repeat: If you don't know your husband's " AS " status with reasonable

>certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

>knowledge!

>

>{You don't need his consent; but it *is* HIS life you're playing with.)

>

>The temptation to " help " , to get " everyone in sight " involved in the

>issue, is always very strong. Also usually always a big mistake. Don't

>make it.

Very WISE advice, Bill! Let me add a cautionary tale here too.

Some years back a good friend of mine suspected her husband had AS .

He probably does, but, she made the mistake of mentioning this to his

mother. As it turns out, his mother has some very pronounced

theory-of-mind issues herself, and clearly narcissistic behavior. My

friend's husband had not been close to his mother for years, as his

mother was severely boundary challenged.

My friend's mother seized upon AS as the " reason " her son wasn't

" close " to her, and insisted he should get " help. " My friend showed

me one letter where her husband's mother was of the opinion he wasn't

living up to his potential and that her son could be a doctor if he

got " help " for his " illness. " She went much further, she told other

family members and her son's EMPLOYER (can you imagine that???!!!)

about his suspected AS - and even attended an Aspergers Conference in

a large western Canadian city, where she introduced herself as a

mother trying to " save " her son.

My broken hearted friend really regretted ever telling her

mother-in-law her hunches. She was only seeking some understanding

and support for her husband form the mother in law. Fortunately (or

sadly, however you want to look at it) the mother-in-law was well

known for being an intrusive nut, so no one really listened to her

assertions about her son. But the unfortunate effect is it put her

son-in-law - my friend's husband, permanently off ever wanting to

explore how AS might impact on his life.

If you think about it, often it's not just the spouse who has AS, it

may be his other family members, especially one or both parents. They

may have adapted well - or they may be dysfunctional - in which case

it's a sure bet they aren't going to view their child's potential AS

objectively or sensibly, and heaven only knows what they'll do with

the " knowledge. "

NEVER disclose personal information such as a medical condition a

loved one has - that's THEIR information to share - unless that

person is legally mentally incapacitated and/or a threat to others.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

I started thinking my beloved husband had

AS many, many months before he told me that he came to this conclusion. I

kept my mouth shut and pushed him to do reading about our daughter.

Hadassah

From: aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Helen Foisy

Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009

11:45 AM

To:

aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: :

Choosing wisely-- was--Aspie Isolation

At 01:20 PM 12/7/2009, Bill wrote:

>I repeat: If you don't know your husband's " AS " status with

reasonable

>certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

>knowledge!

>

>{You don't need his consent; but it *is* HIS life you're playing with.)

>

>The temptation to " help " , to get " everyone in sight "

involved in the

>issue, is always very strong. Also usually always a big mistake. Don't

>make it.

Very WISE advice, Bill! Let me add a cautionary tale here too.

Some years back a good friend of mine suspected her husband had AS .

He probably does, but, she made the mistake of mentioning this to his

mother. As it turns out, his mother has some very pronounced

theory-of-mind issues herself, and clearly narcissistic behavior. My

friend's husband had not been close to his mother for years, as his

mother was severely boundary challenged.

My friend's mother seized upon AS as the " reason " her son wasn't

" close " to her, and insisted he should get " help. " My

friend showed

me one letter where her husband's mother was of the opinion he wasn't

living up to his potential and that her son could be a doctor if he

got " help " for his " illness. " She went much further, she

told other

family members and her son's EMPLOYER (can you imagine that???!!!)

about his suspected AS - and even attended an Aspergers Conference in

a large western Canadian city, where she introduced herself as a

mother trying to " save " her son.

My broken hearted friend really regretted ever telling her

mother-in-law her hunches. She was only seeking some understanding

and support for her husband form the mother in law. Fortunately (or

sadly, however you want to look at it) the mother-in-law was well

known for being an intrusive nut, so no one really listened to her

assertions about her son. But the unfortunate effect is it put her

son-in-law - my friend's husband, permanently off ever wanting to

explore how AS might impact on his life.

If you think about it, often it's not just the spouse who has AS, it

may be his other family members, especially one or both parents. They

may have adapted well - or they may be dysfunctional - in which case

it's a sure bet they aren't going to view their child's potential AS

objectively or sensibly, and heaven only knows what they'll do with

the " knowledge. "

NEVER disclose personal information such as a medical condition a

loved one has - that's THEIR information to share - unless that

person is legally mentally incapacitated and/or a threat to others.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

At 02:10 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:

> I started thinking my beloved husband had AS many, many months

> before he told me that he came to this conclusion. I kept my mouth

> shut and pushed him to do reading about our daughter.

>Hadassah

You are one wise woman! <smiles!>

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

<< NEVER disclose personal information such as a medical condition a

loved one has - that's THEIR information to share - unless that

person is legally mentally incapacitated and/or a threat to others. >>

Bravo, Helen. And you to, Bill. Wonderful advice from both of you.

Your cautionary is similar to those given with respect to 'outing' a

person's sexual orientation or 'alternative-ness'.

Those with a desire to share the personal information of others may have

the best of intentions. Yet one can never be certain what will become

of that information once it is received by the other party. People can

get hurt (and often do) thanks to people with good intentions.

That's why it's commonly considered bad manners to disclose (or

speculate on) such personal information with others.

I've personally encountered a fair number of people who like to

rationalize their 'need' to disclose as an altruistic deed, that of

helping another person to understand a friend or loved one.

Whatever they choose to call it, it's gossip.

Sometimes the motive is ill intent toward the person.

Other times it's ego, the use of another person's information as the

currency by which one demonstrates how much they are " in the know " .

Most times (IMO) it's just that person's way of bonding with others

using the personal information of another as a vehicle by which to

'connect'.

Regardless of the motive, it can only be irresponsible due to the great

potential for adversely impacting the life of another in ways that

cannot even be fully imagined.

Best,

~CJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" The only true disability in life is a bad attitude. "

Hamilton, who believes we are defined by how we deal with setbacks

[Guest guest]

Bill,

 

I'm a little confused by your post.  I don't think you're denying the validity of self-dx.  I think you're just saying it should be done with care.  Fair enough.  But I remember in the past, that you suggested leaving dx to professionals.  In any case, I'm left with the impression that self-dx is usually irresponsible.   

 

I believe self-dx is a two-part story: the self-dx and the communication of the self-dx.  It's not all or nothing.

 

I believe having kids makes self-dx a bit easier.  For example, in my case, I see that she showed (we're getting divorced now) no affection to me and shows no affection to the kids.  This observation conveniently removes the relationship as a source of the problems.   

 

It would seem to me that a neuro-psychologist will need to perform a battery of tests to duplicate what I see as clear as day, everyday.  I believe my self-dx would be especially useful if it would lead my stbx to get a professional dx.  I imagine that it's not uncommon for a spouse's self-dx to initiate the process toward getting a professional dx.

 

During marriage counseling, if one of the family marriage counselors would have been slightly knowledgeable about psychology and given credibility to my self-dx or at least was knowledgeable about AS red-flags, I believe we would have had a chance to seek appropriate therapy and save the marriage.  Unfortunately, I'll never know.         

 

D wrote:> Thank you Bill,> > I am very concerned about proceeding carefully here. I absolutely would > not want to cause him or them more problems. I'm still not sure what I

> should do, if anything regarding his family.I repeat: If you don't know your husband's " AS " status with reasonable certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

knowledge!{You don't need his consent; but it *is* HIS life you're playing with.)The temptation to " help " , to get " everyone in sight " involved in the issue, is always very strong. Also usually always a big mistake. Don't

make it. > I do know for myself, had > I known more back at the start I may have handled the situation better > from my side. My heart hurts for his family. They feel in a way like I > did, isolated from his life, and confused about the things that bother

> him so much that to them isn't a big deal. His mother didn't say it > in those exact words but something like that. Most of what they saw and > relayed to me about the behavior they wondered about were mainly sensory

> type issues, plus the need he had to isolate himself quite often. > That's what I think, and I mean think, not know, his AS tendencies are. > Am I off on that? If I am, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Mmm. " Off " on that? Yes.You are *assuming* he's AS, then working from there to build a case that he *is* AS.Start like a professional: Assume nothing. Match the AS criteria to his behavior. Do that *carefully* and accurately - this is a person's

*life* you're about to re-define!If the criteria are NOT fully and fairly met, then *by definition* he's not AS.Don't try to make " ...well, but he's close " into a diagnosis. Close

isn't good enough. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, etc etc etc.Even then, *yours* is not a professional opinion. It remains speculation. But now at least it's *informed* speculation. You can

begin to ask useful questions about details not covered by the criteria. > One thing > that bothers me is that when I would visit with his mother, almost > always in the conversation, she would say something about him and then > say she didn't know why is is that way. So I sense her frustration.

You're sensing something. I doubt it's " her frustration " .I'd bet she knows *just like you do* many of the same things you're talking about. That she " ...didn't know why (he) is that way " is her

way of saying exactly what you're saying: That you don't know either, which is why you're here, on this List, asking questions.You and the mother, both, are the blind leading the blind. It won't

help if you feed *her uncertainty* with *your* speculation.Before you can help her/them, or him, and/or most especially *yourself*, you *must* start playing with a full deck of accurate information.Have you read and understood the " official " AS criteria yet? > > Thinking about that, maybe I would be better off stating that I now > recognize that some of the behaviors I wondered about are not AS, > because you are right, there's a lot, a whole lot I don't know about AS,

> and I do know that everyone is different....but aren't we> all? I've got my own set of issues just like everyone else. > > I will check out those links/lists, thank you so much for that

> information. I felt like I'd exhausted all available information on the > internet but through this group I've found that not to be true.I know that my words above might feel like a dash of cold water in your

face. Me saying you shouldn't even try, or the like. NOT SO.With care, starting from the right premises, you *can* do a good job of self-education. I hope you do. For your sake and sake of all others involved.

- Bill, dx AS; ...NOT a " mental-health professional " -- WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

gregnewlife@... wrote:

> Bill,

>

> I'm a little confused by your post. I don't think you're denying the

> validity of self-dx. I think you're just saying it should be done with

> care. Fair enough.

Yes. " Done with care " is fine.

The problems arise when the " careful " but non-professional dx is

*applied* in a real-life situation.

Think " home handyman " , do-it-yourself-er, in the archetypical story

about getting into situations *way over their head*.

This is not good, nicht wahr? It's this I warn against, as do others on

this List.

> But I remember in the past, that you suggested

> leaving dx to professionals.

I doubt I ever said that: " leaving " it to professionals. What I say

quite often, as with the case in point, is in *this* situation it may

best be left in professional hands.

Even then I often warn about *USA* professionals, who too often simply

don't understand AS/autism as well as do their colleagues elsewhere in

the world.

> In any case, I'm left with the impression

> that self-dx is usually irresponsible.

Again, it all hangs a one word; in this case: " usually " . I guarantee I

never said that. And I don't believe it either. In any case *I*

self-dxed, engaging a professional only *afterward*, so's to validate my

views.

Self-dx, done carefully, IS NOT irresponsible. Unfettered and/or

thoughtless *use* of the " information " sometimes can be irresponsible,

even harmful.

>

> I believe self-dx is a two-part story: the self-dx and the communication

> of the self-dx. It's not all or nothing.

>

> I believe having kids makes self-dx a bit easier. For example,

> in my case, I see that she showed (we're getting divorced now) no

> affection to me and shows no affection to the kids. This observation

> conveniently removes the relationship as a source of the problems.

Showing affection, or not, is NOT a criterion for AS. Nor is it a

*sufficient condition* for a dx of AS.

The single most important *necessary* condition for a dx of AS is

_impairment of reciprocal social communication_ -- in whatever way it

manifests.

* Impairment

* Reciprocal

* Social

* Communication

Each and every one of those four words (or their equivalent in meaning)

is important. Without any one of them, any " dx " _of AS_ is false/wrong

....by current professional standards.

>

> It would seem to me that a neuro-psychologist will need to perform a

> battery of tests to duplicate what I see as clear as day, everyday.

It might seem that way to you. Maybe they should; in reality often they

don't.

Mental-health professionals may, and often do, do exactly and even only

what *you* do. The difference between them and you is *experience*, and

training, and vetted knowledge. None of which you have; at least so I

presume. Am I right?

> I

> believe my self-dx would be especially useful if it would lead my stbx

> to get a professional dx. I imagine that it's not uncommon for a

> spouse's self-dx to initiate the process toward getting a professional dx.

[ snip the rest ]

You're absolutely right. As I said, that's exactly what *I* did.

>

> During marriage counseling, if one of the family marriage counselors

> would have been slightly knowledgeable about psychology and given

> credibility to my self-dx or at least was knowledgeable about AS

> red-flags, I believe we would have had a chance to seek appropriate

> therapy and save the marriage. Unfortunately, I'll never know.

Again, from above: " Even then I often warn about *USA* professionals,

who too often simply don't understand AS/autism " .

>

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM, WD Loughman <wdloughman@...

> > wrote:

> D wrote:

> > Thank you Bill,

> >

> > I am very concerned about proceeding carefully here. I absolutely

> > would not want to cause him or them more problems. I'm still not sure

> > what I should do, if anything regarding his family.

>

> I repeat: If you don't know your husband's " AS " status with reasonable

> certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

> knowledge!

[ snip ]

- Bill, dx AS; ...NOT a mental-health professional

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Absolutely not, that was never ever my thought. I may not have made it clear enough, but going behind someone's back about anything

in any situation is unreasonable and very poor judgment. In fact, downright rude and disrespectful. I

would not do such a thing to anyone. If it were done to me I would

probably be furious. When I said family, I was including him, and still, I'm extremely hesitant. But I believed I should consider the option and I wanted to get some input. Which I did.

I repeat: If you don't know your husband's "AS" status with reasonable

> certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

> knowledge!

[ snip ]

- Bill, dx AS; ...NOT a mental-health professional

> > Thank you Bill,

> >

> > I am very concerned about proceeding carefully here. I absolutely

> > would not want to cause him or them more problems. I'm still not sure

> > what I should do, if anything regarding his family.

>

> I repeat: If you don't know your husband's "AS" status with reasonable

> certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his

> knowledge!

[ snip ]

- Bill, dx AS; ...NOT a mental-health professional

--

WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi ....

That's the best way to go in my opinion.. encourage whoever to do research and

come that person to come to his conclusions. Best of wishes as you continue

going through all of this.

>

> > > It hurt them to see him when he was mean to me, but I also

>

> > > think they deserve to know about the AS tendencies, because they've seen

>

> > > them his entire life and always wondered why he did what he did. That

>

> > > may clear up some of their questions as well,

>

> >

>

> > Please! ...Be *very* careful with what you say to them about their son.

>

> > You may do far more harm to them than you know. To say nothing of

>

> > harm to him.

>

> >

>

> > *Professionals* in the field have trouble diagnosing adult AS reliably.

>

>

>

> ** Ja, if a person does not know what he/she is doing, best to leave to those

who are certified or licensed to do so. It is like the person who think he/she

knows how to perform CPR on someone but does not, and worse things happen to the

person trying to be resuscitated.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bill & everyone,

 

Sorry for the delay in responding.  

 

What is a *sufficient condition* for a dx of AS? 

 

There is definitely significant " impairment of reciprocal social communication " , that is equally apparent toward me and the kids.  For example: 

 

- circle conversations (I'm cold = her response: I'm also cold)

- no spontaneous affection

- no initiative physically or verbally, i.e., a kiss or to give any positive feedback.      

- extreme narcissistic responses (Let's have a guest = her response: you just want to make me work)

- The list goes on and on.

 

One time, after I got fed-up and threatened to leave her, she started calling and texting me with very nice comments (she had never said anything nice to me prior).  After a few days, I realized it was limited to text and phone calls and there was no change in-person.  Later she acknowledged that it was all contrived in an effort to save the marriage.  Still, apparently she wasn't able to do it in-person. 

 

I'm overwhelmed.  She wants a divorce, and is unusually hostile toward me.  Her hostility began when seeing a family therapist one-on-one who validated her negative, irrational comments.   I'm afraid the kids are suffering from it all.  I'm not sure if I should just focus on moving-on or try to help her and in-turn my kids.     

 

Thanks. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

gregnewlife@... wrote:> Bill,> > I'm a little confused by your post. I don't think you're denying the

> validity of self-dx. I think you're just saying it should be done with > care. Fair enough.Yes. " Done with care " is fine.The problems arise when the " careful " but non-professional dx is

*applied* in a real-life situation.Think " home handyman " , do-it-yourself-er, in the archetypical story about getting into situations *way over their head*.This is not good, nicht wahr? It's this I warn against, as do others on

this List. > But I remember in the past, that you suggested > leaving dx to professionals.I doubt I ever said that: " leaving " it to professionals. What I say quite often, as with the case in point, is in *this* situation it may

best be left in professional hands.Even then I often warn about *USA* professionals, who too often simply don't understand AS/autism as well as do their colleagues elsewhere in the world. > In any case, I'm left with the impression > that self-dx is usually irresponsible.Again, it all hangs a one word; in this case: " usually " . I guarantee I

never said that. And I don't believe it either. In any case *I* self-dxed, engaging a professional only *afterward*, so's to validate my views.Self-dx, done carefully, IS NOT irresponsible. Unfettered and/or

thoughtless *use* of the " information " sometimes can be irresponsible, even harmful. > > I believe self-dx is a two-part story: the self-dx and the communication > of the self-dx. It's not all or nothing.> > I believe having kids makes self-dx a bit easier. For example,

> in my case, I see that she showed (we're getting divorced now) no > affection to me and shows no affection to the kids. This observation > conveniently removes the relationship as a source of the problems.

Showing affection, or not, is NOT a criterion for AS. Nor is it a *sufficient condition* for a dx of AS.The single most important *necessary* condition for a dx of AS is _impairment of reciprocal social communication_ -- in whatever way it

manifests.* Impairment* Reciprocal* Social* CommunicationEach and every one of those four words (or their equivalent in meaning) is important. Without any one of them, any " dx " _of AS_ is false/wrong

....by current professional standards. > > It would seem to me that a neuro-psychologist will need to perform a > battery of tests to duplicate what I see as clear as day, everyday.It might seem that way to you. Maybe they should; in reality often they

don't.Mental-health professionals may, and often do, do exactly and even only what *you* do. The difference between them and you is *experience*, and training, and vetted knowledge. None of which you have; at least so I

presume. Am I right? > I > believe my self-dx would be especially useful if it would lead my stbx > to get a professional dx. I imagine that it's not uncommon for a > spouse's self-dx to initiate the process toward getting a professional dx.

[ snip the rest ]You're absolutely right. As I said, that's exactly what *I* did. > > During marriage counseling, if one of the family marriage counselors > would have been slightly knowledgeable about psychology and given > credibility to my self-dx or at least was knowledgeable about AS

> red-flags, I believe we would have had a chance to seek appropriate > therapy and save the marriage. Unfortunately, I'll never know.Again, from above: " Even then I often warn about *USA* professionals,

who too often simply don't understand AS/autism " . > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM, WD Loughman <wdloughman@...

> > wrote:> D wrote:> > Thank you Bill,> >> > I am very concerned about proceeding carefully here. I absolutely

> > would not want to cause him or them more problems. I'm still not sure> > what I should do, if anything regarding his family.> > I repeat: If you don't know your husband's " AS " status with reasonable

> certainty, *don't* pass on anything about it to his parents without his> knowledge![ snip ] - Bill, dx AS; ...NOT a mental-health professional-- WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: gregnewlife@...

Bill & everyone,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

What is a *sufficient condition* for a dx of AS?

There is definitely significant "impairment of reciprocal social communication", that is equally apparent toward me and the kids.

For example:

Greg- circle conversations (I'm cold = her response: I'm also cold)

Jennie: might mean you saying you're cold reminded her she is also cold. Might be her way of saying she hears you. Might just be a random habit from childhood.... depends.

Greg- no spontaneous affection

Jennie: might mean she does not feel loved, was she always like this? How about when you were dating?

Greg- no initiative physically or verbally, i.e., a kiss or to give any positive feedback.

Jennie: might mean she does not feel loved, was she always like this....(see above)

Greg- extreme narcissistic responses (Let's have a guest = her response: you just want to make me work)

Jennie: might mean every time a guest comes she has to do all the extra work associated with guests thus she feels like her statement is true. Might mean she's overwhelmed.

Greg- The list goes on and on.

Jennie: my point... each of those things might have another reason other than AS. It depends on what is the reality of her over all life among other things.

Greg- I'm overwhelmed. She wants a divorce, and is unusually hostile toward me. Her hostility began when seeing a family therapist one-on-one who validated her negative, irrational comments. I'm afraid the kids are suffering from it all. I'm not sure if I should just focus on moving-on or try to help her and in-turn my kids.

Jennie- if you have reason to believe she might be harming the kids you need to do something about it. Find out if she is. Watch your kids for symptoms. Ask them NON leading questions like "How was your time with mom?" Listen.

Significant impairment in social communication.... Does she have friends? Did she have friends as a teenager, as a kid, as a young adult. Does she have long term friendships with people other than you? How does she behave in social situations, group social situations..... significant impairment has to show up in more than just your one on one relationship. When the examples are only from you it could just be a problem in the individual relationship. If you look at her life as a whole you will get a better overall view. Hope this helps, Jennie

[Guest guest]

Jennie,

 

She has no friends, and as I pointed out, many of the traits apply equally to both me and the kids which eliminates our relationship as a factor. 

 

I believe her assortment of traits strongly point to criteria for an AS dx.  And even each one of them alone is more than a personality characteristic.  Each is excessive and obsessive crossing the line of normality.  For example, even if I teach her and beg her not to go into circle conversations, she  " can't " stop it.     

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: gregnewlife@...

Bill & everyone,

 

Sorry for the delay in responding.  

 

What is a *sufficient condition* for a dx of AS? 

There is definitely significant " impairment of reciprocal social communication " , that is equally apparent toward me and the kids. 

 For example: 

Greg- circle conversations (I'm cold = her response: I'm also cold)

Jennie: might mean you saying you're cold reminded her she is also cold. Might be her way of saying she hears you. Might just be a random habit from childhood.... depends.

Greg- no spontaneous affection

Jennie: might mean she does not feel loved, was she always like this? How about when you were dating?

Greg- no initiative physically or verbally, i.e., a kiss or to give any positive feedback.     

Jennie: might mean she does not feel loved, was she always like this....(see above)

Greg- extreme narcissistic responses (Let's have a guest = her response: you just want to make me work)

Jennie: might mean every time a guest comes she has to do all the extra work associated with guests thus she feels like her statement is true. Might mean she's overwhelmed.

Greg- The list goes on and on.

Jennie: my point... each of those things might have another reason other than AS. It depends on what is the reality of her over all life among other things. 

Greg- I'm overwhelmed.  She wants a divorce, and is unusually hostile toward me.  Her hostility began when seeing a family therapist one-on-one who validated her negative, irrational comments.   I'm afraid the kids are suffering from it all.  I'm not sure if I should just focus on moving-on or try to help her and in-turn my kids.   

Jennie- if you have reason to believe she might be harming the kids you need to do something about it. Find out if she is. Watch your kids for symptoms. Ask them NON leading questions like " How was your time with mom? " Listen.   

Significant impairment in social communication.... Does she have friends? Did she have friends as a teenager, as a kid, as a young adult. Does she have long term friendships with people other than you? How does she behave in social situations, group social situations..... significant impairment has to show up in more than just your one on one relationship. When the examples are only from you it could just be a problem in the individual relationship. If you look at her life as a whole you will get a better overall view. Hope this helps, Jennie

[Guest guest]

What I'm wondering here is why it matters whether or not it's AS.

Doesn't sound like much of a marriage to me and that is mainly what

matters, right?

- Helen

At 05:25 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:

>

>

>Jennie,

>

>She has no friends, and as I pointed out, many of the traits apply

>equally to both me and the kids which eliminates our relationship as

>a factor.

>

>I believe her assortment of traits strongly point to criteria for an

>AS dx. And even each one of them alone is more than a personality

>characteristic. Each is excessive and obsessive crossing the line

>of normality. For example, even if I teach her and beg her not to

>go into circle conversations, she " can't " stop it.

[Guest guest]

Helen,

 

Good question.  If she has AS, then

 

1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she might have been 

unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family therapists.  If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.

 

2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests. 

 

3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE " adapt " to my needs and the kids' needs.  As Bill once pointed out in connection with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find some common ground.  We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the decimation of my family.   

 

Those are some of my initial thoughts. 

 

Thanks. 

 

 

What I'm wondering here is why it matters whether or not it's AS. Doesn't sound like much of a marriage to me and that is mainly what matters, right?- Helen At 05:25 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:>>>Jennie,>>She has no friends, and as I pointed out, many of the traits apply >equally to both me and the kids which eliminates our relationship as

>a factor.>>I believe her assortment of traits strongly point to criteria for an >AS dx. And even each one of them alone is more than a personality >characteristic. Each is excessive and obsessive crossing the line

>of normality. For example, even if I teach her and beg her not to >go into circle conversations, she " can't " stop it.

[Guest guest]

While I whole heartedly agree with you on #2 and #3, I disagree on

#1. One would hope that she isn't being manipulated by her family

therapist!!!! If that were true than that therapist should be

reported to some higher body.

Most therapists try to look at saving the marriage as there is a high

social and economic (and ecological) cost to marriage breakups where

children are involved! Sometimes *I* don't think that's the best

advice myself, I'm not sure what that teaches children, but that's

normally what therapists do. They don't promote breaking up marriages.

It doesn't always follow that AS has low self esteem. Some spouses

cling to the AS label as a " silver bullet " that will save the

marraige. It will not. Only both parties wanting to make it work will

save the marriage. The more immediate concern is the children. How is

she with the children? Jennie's advice was good.

- Helen

At 06:05 PM 12/28/2009, you wrote:

>

>

>Helen,

>

>Good question. If she has AS, then

>

>1. With AS including a significant lack of self-confidence, she

>might have been

>unusually vulnerable to being manipulated by her family

>therapists. If so, maybe I can figure out a way of undoing it.

>

>2. A competent therapist can lead her to understand that her

>behavior is abnormal and contrary to her best interests.

>

>3. She can start therapy specifically for AS and MAYBE " adapt " to my

>needs and the kids' needs. As Bill once pointed out in connection

>with enduring, I'm not sure I could endure it, but maybe we can find

>some common ground. We should have a beautiful family vs seeing the

>decimation of my family.

>

>Those are some of my initial thoughts.

>

>Thanks.