Re: Aspie Isolation

[Guest guest]

samcmaster@... wrote:

<< " The more alone time in my 'sanctuary' that I can create for myself

(even if I don't use it), the more I want to be around my partner and

others. "

This statement is somewhat of a surprise to me. I have LET my husband

have all the time to himself he wants and I have never once heard him

express the desire to be around others. My impression is that the more

I let him keep to himself the harder it is for him to step out of his

comfort zone. I think the NT partner in the relationship needs to set

some boundaries to this alone craving. Certainly if the Aspie is

feeling overstimulated they can retreat as needed, but not to an

unhealthy extent. >>

I completely agree with you. Your husband does sound extreme in his

desire to be alone. Setting some boundaries sounds like a great idea.

Unlike the way you describe your husband, I actually enjoy being around

other people. I just need a good amount of alone time to recharge my

batteries, that's all. It's a requirement for my mental health and is

not optional.

A partner who needs to do everything together would probably not work

for me. Someone who is fairly independent and enjoys solitary time as

well would probably work best.

Of course, each situation is different and each couple needs to find the

balance that works for *both* of them. This requires compromise,

something that is necessary for all win-win relationships.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

BTW no your full name does not appear... you appear as 'samcmaster' someone

who knows you might be able to decode that though??

About isolation.... your husband does not sound like AS to me in terms of

his excessive isolation. The AS I know and have talked too all want

relationship. We don't necessarily know how to go about it, we are socially

clumsy, but we want to have a relationship with other people. Your husband

sounds like he is in self defense mode or is not interested in relationship,

period. To me it sounds like he has some other issue(s) either combined or

something other all together. Perhaps depression, obsessive, or.... one

thing that comes to mind is assuming he is AS if he grew up abused (this

does not necessarily mean his parents were horrible people though it could

be that... AS people can grow up essentially abused simply because of the

lack of understanding about AS can talk more on this if you are interested)

he may have created this complete aloneness as a defense mechanism and now

does not know how or just flat out refuses to come out. He may be angry

about something in his past or many things in his past and playing it out as

if it is happening now, today. My husband grew up in an abusive home and

this is what he does. He never reached a point where he really separated

from his parents because they are super control freaks, so he went through

his adult life treating everyone as if they were his parents. Literally

expecting every person he met to behave like his parents. Thus he would use

all the defense mechanisms he fell into as a child. Unfortunately for me his

primary defense mechanism is a 'Mr. Nice Guy image' which I had no defense

against because I knew nothing about body language let alone even notice it.

He is good enough to fake out NT people, I didn't stand a chance. His

secondary defense is isolation, he uses this combined with the Mr. Nice Guy

so he doesn't literally isolate he just will not connect on any level what

so ever all the while smiling like an clown. (no disrespect intended I mean

that literally, he uses the smile described in body language books as the

'clown smile'.) I learned a lot about my husband and what his issues are by

observing his parents interact and also observing how they behaved toward my

husband and the other kids.

Jennie AS

Aspie Isolation

> " The more alone time in my 'sanctuary' that I can create for myself (even

> if I don't use it), the more I want to be around my partner and others. "

>

> This statement is somewhat of a surprise to me. I have LET my husband

> have all the time to himself he wants and I have never once heard him

> express the desire to be around others. My impression is that the more I

> let him keep to himself the harder it is for him to step out of his

> comfort zone. I think the NT partner in the relationship needs to set

> some boundaries to this alone craving. Certainly if the Aspie is feeling

> overstimulated they can retreat as needed, but not to an unhealthy extent.

>

[Guest guest]

Same here, I let him have all the time alone he needed, at least thats what I think I did. I don't know what other time he could possibly have unless we didn't see each other at all! I didn't want that. Maybe he did. I took it personally, that was rough. With the friends issue, before we married I met his old friends from high school back in his hometown when we visited, everything seemed fine. We'd go visit them at their homes - although never for a meal, which I didn't think twice about, you can visit friends without eating a meal with them, but after we married he informed me he hated eating at others homes because they might fix something he didn't like. That perplexed me. I've on occasion had people fix a meal I didn't care for but I was able to handle it, I guess for him that sent him over the

edge? So once we were married, I think we ate at another couples home once, that was when he told me how he felt and I never pushed the issue again - enabling? He would go out for our Sat. night date night which I eventually talked him into and it seemed he did enjoy that, but if another couple asked us to go out to eat at a restaurant he would think of any excuse not to go, so then it's not a food problem but a people problem? We did go out with a couple he had known for years maybe twice, but that's all, and thinking back, they did have us over for a holiday for dinner, maybe Easter dinner and as soon as the meal was over he had some reason we had to leave...again, I went along with it, but I think by then my health was going downhill and I didn't feel like staying anyway. There was a rather large group there that day but they were all people he knew before he knew me, so it shouldn't have been uncomfortable for him. He

went home and retreated to the bedroom, shut the curtains, turned on the TV and stayed there the rest of the day, recharging I guess.One time when my parents came to visit from out of state - they were going to stay at our home - he opened the door, said hello, and then asked immediately how long they were staying. I saw their shoulders drop like they couldn't believe he said that, I couldn't either, then he made a joke out of it, but I think now, he was concerned about that. He didn't want anyone else around, where I CRAVED company and I felt almost ill when they went back home because I would be isolated again, Subject: Aspie

IsolationTo: aspires-relationships Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:58 AM

"The more alone time in my 'sanctuary' that I can create for myself (even

if I don't use it), the more I want to be around my partner and others."

This statement is somewhat of a surprise to me. I have LET my husband have all the time to himself he wants and I have never once heard him express the desire to be around others. My impression is that the more I let him keep to himself the harder it is for him to step out of his comfort zone. I think the NT partner in the relationship needs to set some boundaries to this alone craving. Certainly if the Aspie is feeling overstimulated they can retreat as needed, but not to an unhealthy extent.

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Diet Help

Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.

http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2141/ c?cp=4K0O245YLng ORzLD9wRhUgAAJ1A Qz4KnhT56NOX4oda lbYuZAAYAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAADNAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YQAAAAAA=

[Guest guest]

Oopl! I misread the quote in my haste about isolation. The more leeway I gave him as far as isolating himself and not asking him to include other people in our lives the worse it got.From: samcmasterjuno (DOT) com <samcmasterjuno (DOT) com>Subject: [aspires-relationsh ips] Aspie

IsolationTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 9:58 AM

"The more alone time in my 'sanctuary' that I can create for myself (even

if I don't use it), the more I want to be around my partner and others."

This statement is somewhat of a surprise to me. I have LET my husband have all the time to himself he wants and I have never once heard him express the desire to be around others. My impression is that the more I let him keep to himself the harder it is for him to step out of his comfort zone. I think the NT partner in the relationship needs to set some boundaries to this alone craving. Certainly if the Aspie is feeling overstimulated they can retreat as needed, but not to an unhealthy extent.

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Diet Help

Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.

http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2141/ c?cp=4K0O245YLng ORzLD9wRhUgAAJ1A Qz4KnhT56NOX4oda lbYuZAAYAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAADNAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YQAAAAAA=

[Guest guest]

Jennie,I'm wondering too if there are other issues with my husband, or if he's much closer to actually being autistic even though he can hold down a good job. His behaviors seem to be much more excessive than what most people on this site discuss.Subject: Re: Aspie IsolationTo: aspires-relationships Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 1:06 PM

BTW no your full name does not appear... you appear as 'samcmaster' someone

who knows you might be able to decode that though??

About isolation... . your husband does not sound like AS to me in terms of

his excessive isolation. The AS I know and have talked too all want

relationship. We don't necessarily know how to go about it, we are socially

clumsy, but we want to have a relationship with other people. Your husband

sounds like he is in self defense mode or is not interested in relationship,

period. To me it sounds like he has some other issue(s) either combined or

something other all together. Perhaps depression, obsessive, or.... one

thing that comes to mind is assuming he is AS if he grew up abused (this

does not necessarily mean his parents were horrible people though it could

be that... AS people can grow up essentially abused simply because of the

lack of understanding about AS can talk more on this if you are interested)

he may have created this complete aloneness as a defense mechanism and now

does not know how or just flat out refuses to come out. He may be angry

about something in his past or many things in his past and playing it out as

if it is happening now, today. My husband grew up in an abusive home and

this is what he does. He never reached a point where he really separated

from his parents because they are super control freaks, so he went through

his adult life treating everyone as if they were his parents. Literally

expecting every person he met to behave like his parents. Thus he would use

all the defense mechanisms he fell into as a child. Unfortunately for me his

primary defense mechanism is a 'Mr. Nice Guy image' which I had no defense

against because I knew nothing about body language let alone even notice it.

He is good enough to fake out NT people, I didn't stand a chance. His

secondary defense is isolation, he uses this combined with the Mr. Nice Guy

so he doesn't literally isolate he just will not connect on any level what

so ever all the while smiling like an clown. (no disrespect intended I mean

that literally, he uses the smile described in body language books as the

'clown smile'.) I learned a lot about my husband and what his issues are by

observing his parents interact and also observing how they behaved toward my

husband and the other kids.

Jennie AS

[aspires-relationsh ips] Aspie Isolation

> "The more alone time in my 'sanctuary' that I can create for myself (even

> if I don't use it), the more I want to be around my partner and others."

>

> This statement is somewhat of a surprise to me. I have LET my husband

> have all the time to himself he wants and I have never once heard him

> express the desire to be around others. My impression is that the more I

> let him keep to himself the harder it is for him to step out of his

> comfort zone. I think the NT partner in the relationship needs to set

> some boundaries to this alone craving. Certainly if the Aspie is feeling

> overstimulated they can retreat as needed, but not to an unhealthy extent.

>

[Guest guest]



,

Here's the thing... every human being is so much more complex and complicated than just a diagnosis. All the other stuff plays into it... family background, culture, belief system (or lack thereof), the current environment, whether or not a person has other things going on as well as AS.... It's a long list of factors with potential input that changes each person besides each person being an individual to start with.

For example, my behaviors before I got a relationship with God is totally different from my behavior after. Before I was totally and completely self focused, simply did not understand that other people had a perspective, didn't occur to me to think about whether other people had a perspective. It was all about me and my pain. Because of that and because of the people around me being similarly self focused I became severely depressed. Because I was severely depressed I isolated more and more. When I was a Junior in high school I quietly behind the scenes cleaned up all my stuff, finished up all my school work, finished up the projects I was working on as a teachers aid, cleaned my locker, wrote letters to my friends and the principle and left them for them to find and walked out of school. It never crossed my mind that someone might care that I left, or that this might be disturbing to my friends, or that my behavior was odd in any way. In fact I thought it was very weird when the teacher who I was a teachers aid to called my home to find out what was going on, why had I left school, was I ever coming back... etc. I just didn't get it. I went on from this to become even more depressed to the point of sitting in a chair with my feet on the wall literally living in a fantasy world (I was building a house) in my head. I would do my chores, to keep my mom off my back, and then just sit. My mother, being utterly self focused apparently thought this behavior was normal as well because she certainly did not think there was anything wrong with me, showed no concern, and thought the teacher was silly for calling and being concerned. As an adult with kids I look back on this and just shake my head, how nutty is my mother??

Obviously at this point in life I do not behave this way. At all. It simply is not acceptable. My perspective on the world totally changed when I started in a relationship with God. Thus my behavior has been modified.

Jennie -still AS, not nutty like my mother.

Re: Aspie Isolation

Jennie,I'm wondering too if there are other issues with my husband, or if he's much closer to actually being autistic even though he can hold down a good job. His behaviors seem to be much more excessive than what most people on this site discuss.

[Guest guest]

, you've got all my *sincerest* sympathy for the fix you're in.

It's a hellish life, yours, and if I could tell/show you how to fix

it - or even start - I'd do it in a shot. But I can't.

That said...

D wrote:

> Jennie,

>

> I'm wondering too if there are other issues with my husband,

Stop wondering. If by " other issues " you mean " other than AS " , then

*absolutely* he has other issues than AS!

> or if he's

> much closer to actually being autistic even though he can hold down a

> good job.

Lets be clear about AS and autism: " AS " *is* autism - BY DEFINITION.

The fine distinctions some try to make really have little to do with the

definition. The (false/inaccurate) distinctions made (high-functioning,

or low) are based on *capabilities*, not behavior or even cognition.

*Everyone* is high- or low-functioning in some way, yet also at the same

time the reverse in other ways. It's a useless distinction both as to

" labeling " the whole person and as to clinical management.

> His behaviors seem to be much more excessive than what most

> people on this site discuss.

Of course. This isn't a forum of professionals. People talk about what

bothers them most, which *isn't* necessarily stuff related to AS.

Rather, often it's related to the very human fault of assigning guilt by

association: " He's got X, a pathology, bad " and " he's a real bastard. "

Therefore the bastard-ish behavior is caused by that " X " .

In that way we " learn " of all sorts of things that *aren't true*.

Things that AS/autists do. Which they don't. Or when they do, it's not

from AS/autism.

>

>

- Bill, dx AS; ...climbing off his soapbox

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I guess the bottom line really is, if I'd known he didn't enjoy people being around, or that it exhausted him, or any of these things, I could have weighed my options, and going into it with my eyes wide open, it would have been my decision to say yes, I'll marry you or i don't think this will work. But as it was, I felt like he pulled the wool over my eyes and trapped me not taking into consideration how it may affect me, just that once we were married he could go back

to life as he wanted it and stop the charade that must have exhausted him to no end. The energy he must have put forth to play along with my lifestyle premarriage must have almost done him in. No wonder he immediately shut me and the world out once I had the wedding ring on my finger. We went to gatherings at peoples homes, events, out to eat, and spent almost every evening together well into the late hours after work. I'm not one of those people who thinks you can change someone once you're married,

that's not realistic and is unfair, but I didn't see at all what I got, on the other hand, I did my best to show him who I am, faults and all (and I know some of them had to bother him, but I didnt hide them), and I believed that he loved me and accepted me as is. So, what do I do? After losing my health and working hard to regain it, I'm still working on that, the final decision was made for me by him. So as I stated somewhere else on a post, I'm on a mission for healing and understanding. And all of you have been so helpful. Thanks for your input and willingness to be open and share your experiences. I have one more unpleasant task ahead of me. I have a very close relationship with my mother in law, she's wonderful and didn't want to see us going through the divorce process and she wants to continue to be friends.

Actually, she and I probably have communicated more than she has with her own son, his

choice, they live far away, so all communication is by phone. She and his father have always wondered why he does what he does at times, and to my knowledge they are completely unaware of AS. At some point, for his well being and because I will be out of the picture from his standpoint, I would like them to be able to think about all this, and maybe do some research so they arent frustrated with him as I was, and I know now at times they were and are. He is like a fish out of water in his family, and I think it's important that he has people around him that love and support him and understand him to the best of their ability. Wish me luck on that one! I'm waiting till after the divorce is final, which will be a while, but at some point that's what I feel I have to do.

> Jennie,

>

> I'm wondering too if there are other issues with my husband,

Stop wondering. If by "other issues" you mean "other than AS", then

*absolutely* he has other issues than AS!

> or if he's

> much closer to actually being autistic even though he can hold down a

> good job.

Lets be clear about AS and autism: "AS" *is* autism - BY DEFINITION.

The fine distinctions some try to make really have little to do with the

definition. The (false/inaccurate) distinctions made (high-functioning,

or low) are based on *capabilities* , not behavior or even cognition.

*Everyone* is high- or low-functioning in some way, yet also at the same

time the reverse in other ways. It's a useless distinction both as to

"labeling" the whole person and as to clinical management.

> His behaviors seem to be much more excessive than what most

> people on this site discuss.

Of course. This isn't a forum of professionals. People talk about what

bothers them most, which *isn't* necessarily stuff related to AS.

Rather, often it's related to the very human fault of assigning guilt by

association: "He's got X, a pathology, bad" and "he's a real bastard."

Therefore the bastard-ish behavior is caused by that "X".

In that way we "learn" of all sorts of things that *aren't true*.

Things that AS/autists do. Which they don't. Or when they do, it's not

from AS/autism.

>

>

- Bill, dx AS; ...climbing off his soapbox

--

WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home. earthlink. net/~wdloughman/ wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Delyth,Thank you for the nice note. I am starting to see what you're saying. I think now a lot of what he did probably wasn't intentional, but when you're in it, it's so confusing. I could see at one point that really nothing in life made him happy, not me, not his job, not money, not things, etc.... People where he worked began to notice that too, and it's too bad. I can't imagine living life wanting to experience happiness, but never being truly happy or content.Thanks again for your response.Subject: Aspie IsolationTo:

aspires-relationships Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 6:42 AM

Hi

I'd just like to say that at first I too felt like my husband had

'tricked me' into being together and felt that if he had been honest

from the beginning I would at least have been making a choice based on

all the info.

But actually, the truth is, my husband didn't know that he wasn't being

honest to his feelings before we were together. He had always 'played

the social game', he thought that was what everyone was doing. He

didn't actually consciously know or have any self awareness and he

didn't know that he had any right to not be stressed. He thought that

being anxious and stressed was what life was as he had never

experienced the opposite. He never knew he was 'wearing a mask'.

So I wasn't 'tricked' by him... my husband isn't to blame... it just

'is'... nobody's fault.

I wish you well on your journey of understanding. I think you are doing

all the right things. Good luck.

Best wishes

Delyth

[Guest guest]

Delyth Bolt wrote:

<< I'd just like to say that at first I too felt like my husband had

'tricked me' into being together and felt that if he had been honest

from the beginning I would at least have been making a choice based on

all the info. >>

IMX with partners of Aspies, most of them go through a period where they

talk about feeling " tricked " . And so the seeds of anger and resentment

are sown, and the relationship becomes more and more toxic for the partner.

By the time the partner has an awareness of their spouse's AS and comes

to terms (assuming they do) with this reality, so much damage to their

self-esteem has often been done that the partner just wants out of the

marriage. Even if they do continue to love their spouse and feel

compassion toward them, they often speak of simply being unable to

re-ignite the flame in their relationship.

I've been through this scenario myself (on both sides), so I think I

understand where both parties are coming from. It's very sad all around.

<< But actually, the truth is, my husband didn't know that he wasn't

being honest to his feelings before we were together. He had always

'played the social game', he thought that was what everyone was doing.

He didn't actually consciously know or have any self awareness and he

didn't know that he had any right to not be stressed. He thought that

being anxious and stressed was what life was as he had never

experienced the opposite. He never knew he was 'wearing a mask'. >>

My situation was a bit different, yet there are enough similarities to

what you describe that I won't quibble.

<< So I wasn't 'tricked' by him... my husband isn't to blame... it just

'is'... nobody's fault. >>

Yep. Sad yet true. Some partners can eventually come around to this

way of thinking. Yet for others (IMO most others) who become casualties

of anger and resentment, the hit to their self-esteem is just so hard

that the concept of " no-fault " may be out of reach for them. When their

Aspie spouse's diagnosis finally comes, it may make little difference to

the partner that an intent to " trick " wasn't part of the equation.

Great post, Delyth!

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

At 11:55 AM 12/4/2009, CJ wrote:

>Delyth Bolt wrote:

>

><< I'd just like to say that at first I too felt like my husband had

>'tricked me' into being together and felt that if he had been honest

>from the beginning I would at least have been making a choice based on

>all the info. >>

>

>IMX with partners of Aspies, most of them go through a period where they

>talk about feeling " tricked " . And so the seeds of anger and resentment

>are sown, and the relationship becomes more and more toxic for the partner.

>

>By the time the partner has an awareness of their spouse's AS and comes

>to terms (assuming they do) with this reality, so much damage to their

>self-esteem has often been done that the partner just wants out of the

>marriage. Even if they do continue to love their spouse and feel

>compassion toward them, they often speak of simply being unable to

>re-ignite the flame in their relationship.

>

>I've been through this scenario myself (on both sides), so I think I

>understand where both parties are coming from. It's very sad all around.

>

><< But actually, the truth is, my husband didn't know that he wasn't

>being honest to his feelings before we were together. He had always

>'played the social game', he thought that was what everyone was doing.

>He didn't actually consciously know or have any self awareness and he

>didn't know that he had any right to not be stressed. He thought that

>being anxious and stressed was what life was as he had never

>experienced the opposite. He never knew he was 'wearing a mask'. >>

>

>My situation was a bit different, yet there are enough similarities to

>what you describe that I won't quibble.

>

><< So I wasn't 'tricked' by him... my husband isn't to blame... it just

>'is'... nobody's fault. >>

>

>Yep. Sad yet true. Some partners can eventually come around to this

>way of thinking. Yet for others (IMO most others) who become casualties

>of anger and resentment, the hit to their self-esteem is just so hard

>that the concept of " no-fault " may be out of reach for them. When their

>Aspie spouse's diagnosis finally comes, it may make little difference to

>the partner that an intent to " trick " wasn't part of the equation.

>

>Great post, Delyth!

>Best,

>~CJ

Agree with both of you say. For some, the discovery of AS will

provided a much needed explanation that their partner didn't mean to

be the way they were. So there is a new starting point, to work

through issues together. For others, especially those who feel they

have been parenting their partner for years, it's the final nail

because they come to the conclusion that their partner's behavior is

hard-wired, and therefore unlikely to change. As CJ also raised this

issue, parenting a spouse really changes the dynamic of the

relationship. Some members in the past have said they don't mind

" motherin' " their spouse, but for the majority of intimate partners,

that's the end of intimacy. Also as CJ points out above, some may not

be able to digest the concept of " no fault. " If someone is

responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to change their

behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all the anger

for the hurt and lost years turns inward.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

<< If someone is responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to

change their behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all

the anger for the hurt and lost years turns inward. >>

So beautifully expressed, Helen. Your inward turning comment really

describes my late husband so perfectly.

That inward turning really ate him alive from the inside, as his anger

and resentment toward me combined with his already poor self image and

transformed him from the wonderful man I married to one who turned to

dishonesty (e.g., infidelity, lies of all sorts) as a survival strategy.

A strategy which only exacerbated his self-loathing and worsened his

mild bipolar disorder, which until that time had been very manageable

with medication.

Eventually his self-loathing and guilt resulted in him taking his life

on New Year's Day 2008. Fortunately, his mistress found his body, not me.

My own diagnosis came too late for both of us, I'm afraid.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

CJ,

At first, when I read your post, I was speechless (a hard thing if U know

me) and I'm still not having an easy time putting words together here,

but I do know you should NOT be taking ownership for your late husband's

terrible choice.

From the sounds of it, he was ill, and he was not honest, not with you,

not honest with anyone, not even honest with himself. You do not sound

like a person who is cruel or dishonest or stupid and however you may

think you " erred " it certainly did NOT lead to this sad

outcome.

There may be factors that lead to any relationship breakdown that were

attributable to AS ... I look at my own role in failed friendships and

relationships too. When I was young, I was well meaning, but also very

thoughtless at times, due to my mindblindess. With the benefit of age and

understanding of how my AS came into play, I can take control and

responsibility for whatever role I played in the past that lead to a

breakdown of a friendship or relationship, and I am able to stop feeling

like the victim. But that's not the same as owning other's terrible

choices.

But I can understand why you would feel that way, though. After my

(alcoholic, abusive) ex died a violent death three and a half years ago,

the thought had crossed my mind that if I'd stayed with him I could have

altered the course of his fate. That thought still passes through my mind

from time to time when I am feeling down. Those are the key words

" when you are feeling down. " You are too kind of a person to

feel at fault. Please don't. It looks like you still have a lot of

healing left to do.

cyber hugs

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Helen Foisy wrote:

<< At first, when I read your post, I was speechless (a hard thing if U

know me) and I'm still not having an easy time putting words together

here, but I do know you should NOT be taking ownership for your late

husband's terrible choice.

From the sounds of it, he was ill, and he was not honest, not with you,

not honest with anyone, not even honest with himself. You do not sound

like a person who is cruel or dishonest or stupid and however you may

think you " erred " it certainly did NOT lead to this sad outcome. >>

I don't take ownership, at least not intellectually. I know that he was

ill, and that no one can be the cause of another person's suicide.

Yet emotionally I struggle with this issue, as my issues *did* serve as

the primary catalyst that worsened what had previously been a very

manageable case of bipolar disorder, to the point where an otherwise

good man chose to die by his own hand. There is no getting away from

that Unpleasant Truth.

<< There may be factors that lead to any relationship breakdown that

were attributable to AS ... I look at my own role in failed friendships

and relationships too. When I was young, I was well meaning, but also

very thoughtless at times, due to my mindblindness. With the benefit of

age and understanding of how my AS came into play, I can take control

and responsibility for whatever role I played in the past that lead to a

breakdown of a friendship or relationship, and I am able to stop feeling

like the victim. But that's not the same as owning other's terrible

choices. >>

I work very hard at doing the same, really I do. I understand and agree

with everything you say -- intellectually that is. The emotional stuff

is a lot harder.

When we married back in the Dark Ages of 1988, very few people knew how

to recognize AS and OCD, my husband and I included. We both believed

that I was simply responding to the constellation of stressers in my

life with the only tools I had at hand (none of them wise or effective).

Even most mental health professionals were largely ignorant of AS and

OCD, not having the foggiest notion of how to treat it (OCD) or assist a

client in understanding their AS and how it may affect their relationships.

My late husband really was a very honorable man who (like me) made some

very poor choices in attempting to cope with his loneliness and pain.

If he had not been so honorable, his choices would probably have not

resulted in the degree of self-loathing and guilt that eventually drove

him to take his own life.

<< But I can understand why you would feel that way, though. After my

(alcoholic, abusive) ex died a violent death three and a half years ago,

the thought had crossed my mind that if I'd stayed with him I could have

altered the course of his fate. That thought still passes through my

mind from time to time when I am feeling down. Those are the key words

" when you are feeling down. " >>

Helen, I'm glad that you can identify with some of my feelings on this

issue. That really helps. A lot.

<< You are too kind of a person to feel at fault. Please don't. It looks

like you still have a lot of healing left to do. >>

I do have a lot of healing left to do, yes. Whether I will ever heal

enough to feel safe opening my heart to another serious relationship is

something that I worry about. If I was still a very young adult, I

would have time on my side. Yet at middle age... well, I just don't know.

As if my dear husband's sudden death wasn't traumatizing enough, there

were also the reactions and meddling of both his family and mistress in

the days and weeks following his suicide.

And did I mention that my husband's life insurance didn't pay out squat

(do to the suicide) and that he left me nearly 750K in debt, thereby

placing my home at risk?

Dreams for my future? What dreams... sigh. For nearly 2 years, I've

been in reaction mode, where all of my decisions and future plans are

dictated by circumstance, rather than personal choice.

So yeah... it's quite the heap. And I'm not sure that my shoulders are

broad enough to bear all that weight alone.

Best,

~CJ

cyber hugs

[Guest guest]

Anger and resentment turned inward perfectly describes my husband. He even told me himself that he believed it was my fault I got deathly ill and that he would forgive me but that he would hold a grudge against me for the rest of my life. Well that isn't forgiveness and I never blamed him for my illness, although I know my lack of being able to handle the intense stress in the relationship was the number 1 factor. But I know he didn't intend to make me sick, and I didn't somehow decide to be sick, which he also mentioned. He said I "chose" sickness over him. How I would have done that I don't know. (Nothing was so bad that I would have rather been in the hospital for months at a time than home. That's not a life either....)Therefore he feels like he can say I abandoned him by being ill. Resentment and

bitterness can run deep where they fester and grow. That's what I see and saw happening in him. Thankfully I'm not a person who angers easily, so anger, bitterness and resentment don't describe my feelings, but I was disappointed, let down, and felt abandoned from the start. My feelings were mainly in the category of hurt.

<< If someone is responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to

change their behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all

the anger for the hurt and lost years turns inward. >>

So beautifully expressed, Helen. Your inward turning comment really

describes my late husband so perfectly.

That inward turning really ate him alive from the inside, as his anger

and resentment toward me combined with his already poor self image and

transformed him from the wonderful man I married to one who turned to

dishonesty (e.g., infidelity, lies of all sorts) as a survival strategy.

A strategy which only exacerbated his self-loathing and worsened his

mild bipolar disorder, which until that time had been very manageable

with medication.

Eventually his self-loathing and guilt resulted in him taking his life

on New Year's Day 2008. Fortunately, his mistress found his body, not me.

My own diagnosis came too late for both of us, I'm afraid.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

I just realized, I felt responsible for his happiness! And, I think I felt like I failed because I couldn't meet his needs to make him happy. But that's actually crazy because nothing seemed to make him happy, and i've said that before in posts here, but I hadn't though of the fact that I felt like it was my responsibility, and it wasn't. No one is responsible for our own happiness except for us. If we aren't happy with ourselves, no one else can make us happy. I wish he could understand that.

[Guest guest]

I feel for you, . No one should feel responsible for another's

happiness. Not my happiness, not anyone else's happiness. I am sorry that he

felt like nothing seemed to make him happy. In my view, happiness can only come

from within a person. If I can't make myself happy, how can I expect others to

make me happy? It's next to impossible. So when we feel like we can't make

others feel happy, we feel as if we are responsible for that.

So, you can't be at fault because nothing seems to make him happy. Feels like a

lot of negative energy to me.

K.

>

> I just realized, I felt responsible for his happiness!  And, I think I felt

like I failed because I couldn't meet his needs to make him happy.  But that's

actually crazy because nothing seemed to make him happy, and i've said that

before in posts here, but I hadn't though of the fact that I felt like it was my

responsibility, and it wasn't.  No one is responsible for our own happiness

except for us.  If we aren't happy with ourselves, no one else can make us

happy.  I wish he could understand that. 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,This is not an AS issue at all, but appears to be emotional abuse. A person who has a need to control others, regardless if he is NT or AS, will tend to blame the victim when things go wrong, and make unreasonable requrests that the victim cannot meet, on an emotional level. He may be AS as well, but this behavior of blaming you for getting deathly ill and then telling you that you chose that over him is - in my opinion- just the behavior of a jerk. It is true that some AS have difficulty in taking another's point of view, but most of us tend to respect expertise, and doctor's evaluations would be included in that. Also, most of us tend to respect facts, and again, there is something going on here that does not fit this.I agree with you that this

is not forgiveness, but I see it as something besides unforgiveness- i see it as emotional abuse, and playing with your head. Maybe, i just lack enough theory of mind to see how he could really believe this, even if he is AS. AS but never did anything like this- and never will!To: aspires-relationships Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 5:10:26 PMSubject: Re: Aspie

Isolation

Anger and resentment turned inward perfectly describes my husband. He even told me himself that he believed it was my fault I got deathly ill and that he would forgive me but that he would hold a grudge against me for the rest of my life. Well that isn't forgiveness and I never blamed him for my illness, although I know my lack of being able to handle the intense stress in the relationship was the number 1 factor. But I know he didn't intend to make me sick, and I didn't somehow decide to be sick, which he also mentioned. He said I "chose" sickness over him. How I would have done that I don't know. (Nothing was so bad that I

would have rather been in the hospital for months at a time than home. That's not a life either....)Therefor e he feels like he can say I abandoned him by being ill. Resentment and

bitterness can run deep where they fester and grow. That's what I see and saw happening in him. Thankfully I'm not a person who angers easily, so anger, bitterness and resentment don't describe my feelings, but I was disappointed, let down, and felt abandoned from the start. My feelings were mainly in the category of hurt.

<< If someone is responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to

change their behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all

the anger for the hurt and lost years turns inward. >>

So beautifully expressed, Helen. Your inward turning comment really

describes my late husband so perfectly.

That inward turning really ate him alive from the inside, as his anger

and resentment toward me combined with his already poor self image and

transformed him from the wonderful man I married to one who turned to

dishonesty (e.g., infidelity, lies of all sorts) as a survival strategy.

A strategy which only exacerbated his self-loathing and worsened his

mild bipolar disorder, which until that time had been very manageable

with medication.

Eventually his self-loathing and guilt resulted in him taking his life

on New Year's Day 2008. Fortunately, his mistress found his body, not me.

My own diagnosis came too late for both of us, I'm afraid.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Thank you ,I feel like I've been emotionally abused. The more I've posted here and then re-read what I wrote, the more horrified I get at what I went through. No wonder my body gave out. When I put together the whole picture, wow, it's overwhelming. I think in the beginning a lot of the behavior was possibly AS, but later, it really escalated. I do think it's rooted in resentment and bitterness toward me, and maybe life in general. I have no doubt he's got some AS tendencies, but hearing this from you, and others with AS tells me a lot. It really did get worse with time. Yuck! What a mess. By the way, does your friend still want people to send postcards to her class? I meant to and haven't gotten anywhere to pick one up yet.

<< If someone is responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to

change their behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all

the anger for the hurt and lost years turns inward. >>

So beautifully expressed, Helen. Your inward turning comment really

describes my late husband so perfectly.

That inward turning really ate him alive from the inside, as his anger

and resentment toward me combined with his already poor self image and

transformed him from the wonderful man I married to one who turned to

dishonesty (e.g., infidelity, lies of all sorts) as a survival strategy.

A strategy which only exacerbated his self-loathing and worsened his

mild bipolar disorder, which until that time had been very manageable

with medication.

Eventually his self-loathing and guilt resulted in him taking his life

on New Year's Day 2008. Fortunately, his mistress found his body, not me.

My own diagnosis came too late for both of us, I'm afraid.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Hi ,She did not give a timeframe, but I think it is a project that will be lasting awhile, and certainly over the holiday break. Thanks!To: aspires-relationships Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:30:11 PMSubject: Re:

Aspie Isolation

Thank you ,I feel like I've been emotionally abused. The more I've posted here and then re-read what I wrote, the more horrified I get at what I went through. No wonder my body gave out. When I put together the whole picture, wow, it's overwhelming. I think in the beginning a lot of the behavior was possibly AS, but later, it really escalated. I do think it's rooted in resentment and bitterness toward me, and maybe life in general. I have no doubt he's got some AS tendencies, but hearing this from you, and others with AS tells me a lot. It really did get worse with time. Yuck! What a mess.

By the way, does your friend still want people to send postcards to her class? I meant to and haven't gotten anywhere to pick one up yet.

<< If someone is responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to

change their behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all

the anger for the hurt and lost years turns inward. >>

So beautifully expressed, Helen. Your inward turning comment really

describes my late husband so perfectly.

That inward turning really ate him alive from the inside, as his anger

and resentment toward me combined with his already poor self image and

transformed him from the wonderful man I married to one who turned to

dishonesty (e.g., infidelity, lies of all sorts) as a survival strategy.

A strategy which only exacerbated his self-loathing and worsened his

mild bipolar disorder, which until that time had been very manageable

with medication.

Eventually his self-loathing and guilt resulted in him taking his life

on New Year's Day 2008. Fortunately, his mistress found his body, not me.

My own diagnosis came too late for both of us, I'm afraid.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

,I am glad this is beginning to make more sense to you.To: aspires-relationships Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:30:11 PMSubject: Re: Aspie Isolation

Thank you ,I feel like I've been emotionally abused. The more I've posted here and then re-read what I wrote, the more horrified I get at what I went through. No wonder my body gave out. When I put together the whole picture, wow, it's overwhelming. I think in the beginning a lot of the behavior was possibly AS, but later, it really escalated. I do think it's rooted in resentment and bitterness toward me, and maybe life in general. I have no doubt he's got some AS tendencies, but hearing this from you, and others with AS tells me a lot. It really did get worse with time. Yuck! What a mess.

By the way, does your friend still want people to send postcards to her class? I meant to and haven't gotten anywhere to pick one up yet.

<< If someone is responsible, then presumably someone can also chose to

change their behavior for the better. But if no one is responsible, all

the anger for the hurt and lost years turns inward. >>

So beautifully expressed, Helen. Your inward turning comment really

describes my late husband so perfectly.

That inward turning really ate him alive from the inside, as his anger

and resentment toward me combined with his already poor self image and

transformed him from the wonderful man I married to one who turned to

dishonesty (e.g., infidelity, lies of all sorts) as a survival strategy.

A strategy which only exacerbated his self-loathing and worsened his

mild bipolar disorder, which until that time had been very manageable

with medication.

Eventually his self-loathing and guilt resulted in him taking his life

on New Year's Day 2008. Fortunately, his mistress found his body, not me.

My own diagnosis came too late for both of us, I'm afraid.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

OH! OK I never thought that Aspies could be introverted or extroverted. That

makes sense. This is helping me sort out personality from AS.

And by the way, I haven't been on as much because I had to all but force my

husband to go to a Christmas party last night. I tried to intentionally seat

him across from a guy who has a lot in common with him so they could talk work.

I think it helped, but he still says after we go to social gatherings how much

he hates being around people. I had a great time talking to people, exchanging

funny stories and laughing. I feel mean even trying to get him to go, but I

told him sometimes I'd like him do something with me just because I like it and

it makes me happy.

____________________________________________________________

Criminal Lawyer

Criminal Lawyers - Click here.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=2bsoV_3sQcKoBrPiCLCBDQAAJ1AQz4KnhT\

56NOX4odalbYuZAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAiFgAAAAA=

My husband would prefer to be a hermit and never come out of his cave if it was an option. He understands that real-life doesn't work that way, but just being around other people exhausts him and stresses him out. He is extremely introverted.

He told me about his introversion early in our relationship, and reading about introverts helped me understand him somewhat. At the time, neither of us knew anything about AS. Once our toddler started showing symptoms of autism, I started doing a lot of reading about it. When I read something written by an adult with high functioning autism, bells started ringing all over the place. Everything they said was exactly what my husband had been telling me about himself.

I guess my point is, even Aspies can be introverted or extroverted. My autistic son is much more social than his dad.

>

> BTW no your full name does not appear... you appear as 'samcmaster' someone

> who knows you might be able to decode that though??

>

> About isolation.... your husband does not sound like AS to me in terms of

> his excessive isolation. The AS I know and have talked too all want

> relationship. We don't necessarily know how to go about it, we are socially

> clumsy, but we want to have a relationship with other people. Your husband

> sounds like he is in self defense mode or is not interested in relationship,

> period. To me it sounds like he has some other issue(s) either combined or

> something other all together. Perhaps depression, obsessive, or.... one

> thing that comes to mind is assuming he is AS if he grew up abused (this

> does not necessarily mean his parents were horrible people though it could

> be that... AS people can grow up essentially abused simply because of the

> lack of understanding about AS can talk more on this if you are interested)

> he may have created this complete aloneness as a defense mechanism and now

> does not know how or just flat out refuses to come out. He may be angry

> about something in his past or many things in his past and playing it out as

> if it is happening now, today. My husband grew up in an abusive home and

> this is what he does. He never reached a point where he really separated

> from his parents because they are super control freaks, so he went through

> his adult life treating everyone as if they were his parents. Literally

> expecting every person he met to behave like his parents. Thus he would use

> all the defense mechanisms he fell into as a child. Unfortunately for me his

> primary defense mechanism is a 'Mr. Nice Guy image' which I had no defense

> against because I knew nothing about body language let alone even notice it.

> He is good enough to fake out NT people, I didn't stand a chance. His

> secondary defense is isolation, he uses this combined with the Mr. Nice Guy

> so he doesn't literally isolate he just will not connect on any level what

> so ever all the while smiling like an clown. (no disrespect intended I mean

> that literally, he uses the smile described in body language books as the

> 'clown smile'.) I learned a lot about my husband and what his issues are by

> observing his parents interact and also observing how they behaved toward my

> husband and the other kids.

>

> Jennie AS

>

> Aspie Isolation

>

>

> > " The more alone time in my 'sanctuary' that I can create for myself (even

> > if I don't use it), the more I want to be around my partner and others. "

> >

> > This statement is somewhat of a surprise to me. I have LET my husband

> > have all the time to himself he wants and I have never once heard him

> > express the desire to be around others. My impression is that the more I

> > let him keep to himself the harder it is for him to step out of his

> > comfort zone. I think the NT partner in the relationship needs to set

> > some boundaries to this alone craving. Certainly if the Aspie is feeling

> > overstimulated they can retreat as needed, but not to an unhealthy extent.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I can not begin to describe how grateful I am that so many on here express my

own thoughts EXACTLY. I have been filled with so much self doubt wondering what

am I doing wrong and trying so hard to do better. Satisfying him is impossible

because he will not choose to see any silver lining in life. All he sees is

things to gripe about. And right now because he is severely stressed at work,

he is putting me and the kids through a mental hell. He just hates every aspect

of his life and that is not my bad. He left for a business trip this morning

and will not be back until Friday. I am considering asking him to go stay with

someone else after he returns if his attitude has not improved. He was sending

so many verbal darts at me before I left. I am so glad I will have a week

without him.

____________________________________________________________

Water Heater

Some like it hot. Click now for a reliable new water heater!

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=tGbLgsEDnq2DJcgA2UoqiwAAJ1AQz4KnhT\

56NOX4odalbYuZAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGIAAAAAA=

I just realized, I felt responsible for his happiness! And, I think I felt like I failed because I couldn't meet his needs to make him happy. But that's actually crazy because nothing seemed to make him happy, and i've said that before in posts here, but I hadn't though of the fact that I felt like it was my responsibility, and it wasn't. No one is responsible for our own happiness except for us. If we aren't happy with ourselves, no one else can make us happy. I wish he could understand that.