Re: Hair loss and hormones

[Guest guest]

Oh goodness, you get the digests!  I'm so sorry we have fallen apart about keeping things tidy for digest users.  All these top postings (titch titch to self)!! And we don't even tidy and clip anymore.  Things have gone to hell (me bad)But top posting is so much easier.... Anyway, I feel for ya.  A P shot just scare the living daylights out of me.  Is it really Progesterone or provera?  Eiy yi - have you followed the links on the RL web page to the depo provera stories.  Suffering! The jolt of P sounds like a promising lead.  You couldn't pay me to get a P shot.  Is it really progesterone or provera?  Remember the stories from the depo provera gals?  There are link to them on the RL web site.  http://www.rhythmicliving.com/depo_provera.htmlDo you really need so much P with the vivelle dot?  One of the members here (or was around before) uses a P IUD or some such thing.  She loves it.  I recall she uses 2.5mg of oral E and the mirena (?) P IUD.  Sounds great for her, but any P implant <<shudder, shudder>> for me is a non-starter.  Also what is BI progesterone?  BTW, there are studies where the women only got E... apparently if the E is ultra low then women don't need the P There are some studies here with no Phttp://www.rhythmicliving.com/bhrt_summary.htmlLaurelI am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading daily digests and am impressed with everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my situation and see if you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that time. Two and 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone because I felt terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone at all, but my body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who specializes in menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone every 3-4 months to clear the uterine lining. After trying prometrium, crinone and a shot of P, I settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During that time she ups my E to counteract the symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P throws my body off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and depression. My problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of my hair which was very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and unmanageable. Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but that has been gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other endos attested to according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to tests. My testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see if it has a positive effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of this trial which I understand will take at least 3 months before results appear if any.Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need numbers Cora

[Guest guest]

Hi Cora, i think you should switch from the shut of P to oral every 3-4 months for 10-12 days?! i think it's P converting to T that harms your hair...so i'd stay with 0.1mg of E and switch to oral progesterone...get the micronized kind instead of prometrium, you can get it in 50mg capsules so you could take it throught the day instead of all in one dose. -J.coralibra88 wrote: I am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading daily digests and am impressed with

everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my situation and see if you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that time. Two and 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone because I felt terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone at all, but my body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who specializes in menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone every 3-4 months to clear the uterine lining. After trying prometrium, crinone and a shot of P, I settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During that time she ups my E to counteract the symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P throws my body off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and depression. My

problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of my hair which was very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and unmanageable. Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but that has been gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other endos attested to according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to tests. My testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see if it has a positive effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of this trial which I understand will take at least 3 months before results appear if any.Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need numbers Cora

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

Prometrium is micronized progesterone.

Val

-----Original Message-----From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ]On Behalf Of Sullivan

get the micronized kind instead of prometrium,

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Cora and ,

I don't understand why progesterone would be the culprit now that it is only used every 3 - 4 months, whereas there was no hair loss when it was used daily. From a purely logical standpoint, it would seem that if the only thing that was changed was less progesterone, then maybe the reduction is contributing to hair loss.

I know many women on this list and the GrowHair list have noticed more hair loss when using progesterone but for me the real issue is growing new hair. I do not lose much on a daily basis, certainly not more than a normal amount. Yet, less and less new hair is growing in.

I have been trying to isolate the factors and am not certain but it seems that when I was using estrogen and progesterone, I did not have hair loss. But after my hysterectomy when Dr. Vliet said I no longer needed progesterone and I stopped using it, my hair loss began. Other changes happened at the same time so I can't be sure it's the progesterone factor but I am just noticing that similarity to what is happening with Cora.

I have read and my new doctor tells me that progesterone is given to men with hair loss problems because it blocks the enzyme, 5 alpha reductase, which converts testosterone to DHT. My doctor also says its not the DHT itself that is the problem but rather the conversion process that causes hair loss. He said some patients are given DHT and it doesn't cause hair loss.

He also said that hair loss in women can be from too little cortisol, inflammation, too little estradiol and/or conversion to DHT. The causes vary per individual.

I have tried to locate the reference I read but the lab website where I saw it has changed and it's not there anymore. I did find an article here, http://www.oasisserene.com/hormones/progesterone-prostate.html that states "Progesterone inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT."

I certainly don't know the answers and am somewhat confused by the differences in what I read and am told by doctors and what other women experience.

Cora, when you were taking 100 mg. progesterone per day, what form was it in? Oral or transdermal?

Reply-To: rhythmicliving To: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: Hair loss and hormonesDate: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:28:50 -0700 (PDT)

Hi Cora, i think you should switch from the shut of P to oral every 3-4 months for 10-12 days?! i think it's P converting to T that harms your hair...so i'd stay with 0.1mg of E and switch to oral progesterone...get the micronized kind instead of prometrium, you can get it in 50mg capsules so you could take it throught the day instead of all in one dose.

-J.coralibra88 wrote:

I am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading daily digests and am impressed with everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my situation and see if you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that time. Two and 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone because I felt terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone at all, but my body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who specializes in menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone every 3-4 months to clear the uterine lining. After trying prometrium, crinone and a shot of P, I settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During that time she ups my E to counteract the symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P throws my body off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and depression. My problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of my hair which was very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and unmanageable. Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but that has been gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other endos attested to according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to tests. My testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see if it has a positive effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of this trial which I understand will take at least 3 months before results appear if any.Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need numbers Cora

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

Ladies, thank you for your responses. I will answer all your questions but will

do so in a

couple of posts as I have time.

Here are the specifics of the protocol I am on which was prescribed to me by a

very cutting

edge endo dr who specializes in this area and who is up on the absolute latest.

Vivelle Dot 0.1 2X week (estradiol)

Progesterone Shot every 3 - 5 months to clear uterine lining - I get 2 1/2 cc's

of a 50 mg

per cc dosage in oil (total 125 cc) which is suppose to stay in my body for

about 1 week.

It is the best quality of micronized bio-identical P. When I was on the .075

Vivelle I added

an additional Vivelle patch of .05 and replaced with with another one 3 days

later - the

purpose being to alleviate P symptoms I would get a period on day 8 or 9 after

the shot.

The periods use to be light, but they have gotten heavier and redder during mid

flow

which lasts about 4 days. I don't know what dosage the additional E will be

since being on

0.1 patch. I'll find out in August when I am due for round of P.

My endo wants me to take Halotestin (1/2 to 1 mg pharmaceutical testosterone) 5

times a

week for well-being, bones, and for somehow helping to protect breast tissue

from

estrogen. I don't understand this one well yet so that's all I can tell you.

I, however, do

not take the halotestin because I am concerned about it contributing to my hair

loss. She

is not concerned about that because I am such a low testosterone woman - thin,

delicately

boned and muscleless and I have so little T in my body. She does highly stress

that I

should take the halotestin a week before and during the P phase to help me feel

better. I

tried it and it does work. It bothered my stomach a bit so I have to take it in

the morning

and with food.

As to your question about " why " the progesterone shot...I tried Crinone, a

vaginal

application over a 2 week period - messy and I don't feel much better,

Prometrium,

micronized bio-identical (BI) progesterone for 10 days which I felt terrible on.

The reason

I settled on the shot was that it is quick, painless and the whole process -

period and all is

over in less than 2 weeks. I might have to double check on this, but it seemed

to me like I

lost more hair after I did the round of progesterone.

As far as the question about not losing hair while I was on daily E and

P...well, yes, that is

curious. There could be a connection, but I have girlfriends who are on the

daily regimen

of E and P and they are losing their hair too. The funny thing is they have

hair like me -

naturally curly. I wonder if it something with us curly girls?

I hope that answered most of your questions. I will let you know my tests

results next

time.

Cora

[Guest guest]

,

When I am due for my P shot next month, I might try Prometrium again - which is

micronized bioidentical. I did it before and still had hair loss, but the loss

is worse now.

Going through 10-12 days of P is much worse than 7 days, but I may have to

increase my

estrogen even more to offset symptoms. I am just one of those women whose

biochemistry does not handle P. I really related to the book " The Hormonally

Vulnerable

Woman. " Being a sensitive type, I react to everything i put into my blood type

A body. I

do, however, respond well to estradiol. Being thin, I have very little in my

almost post-

menopausal system.

Thanks for your suggestion, and I will speak to my endo about the P to T

conversion.

Cora

> I am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading daily

digests and am

impressed

> with everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my situation

and see

if

> you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.

>

> I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that time.

Two

and

> 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone because

I felt

> terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone at

all, but my

> body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who

specializes in

> menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone every

3-4

> months to clear the uterine lining. After trying prometrium, crinone and a

shot of P, I

> settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During that

time she ups

> my E to counteract the symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P throws

my body

> off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and

depression.

>

> My problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of my

hair which

was

> very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and

unmanageable.

> Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but that

has been

> gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other endos

attested

to

> according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to tests.

My

> testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see if it

has a positive

> effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of this trial which I

understand will take

at

> least 3 months before results appear if any.

>

> Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need numbers

>

> Cora

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> #define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

>

[Guest guest]

well, after hyst. your body wasn't producing any estradiol...you were supplementing, but with the addition of progesterone, estrogen receptors were downregulated, so there was even less estradiol available...the exact same thing happend to me on BCP...it's not that i was losing more than normal...but my hair stopped growing..i was losing 20-40/day...but i was balding on and fast...i also had all the symptoms of low E... another possible explanation could be low T...Vliet talks about it in her chapter on T. low T as well as high T can cause alopecia also if you do P once every so often, it's quiet a shock to the system...both Vliet and my endocrynologyst talked about this, plus when you stop using it you're stuck with progesterone receptor cravings...any of this could potentially cause HL. Hatfield wrote: Hi Cora and , I don't understand why progesterone would be the culprit now that it is only used every 3 - 4 months, whereas there was no hair loss when it was used daily. From a purely logical standpoint, it would seem that if the only thing that was changed was less progesterone, then maybe the reduction is contributing to hair loss. I know many women on this list and the GrowHair list have noticed more hair loss when using progesterone but for me the real issue is growing new hair. I do not lose much on a daily basis, certainly not

more than a normal amount. Yet, less and less new hair is growing in. I have been trying to isolate the factors and am not certain but it seems that when I was using estrogen and progesterone, I did not have hair loss. But after my hysterectomy when Dr. Vliet said I no longer needed progesterone and I stopped using it, my hair loss began. Other changes happened at the same time so I can't be sure it's the progesterone factor but I am just noticing that similarity to what is happening with Cora. I have read and my new doctor tells me that progesterone is given to men with hair loss problems because it blocks the enzyme, 5 alpha reductase, which converts testosterone to DHT. My doctor also says its not the DHT itself that is the problem but rather the conversion process that causes hair loss. He said some patients are given DHT and it doesn't cause hair loss. He also said that hair loss in women can be from

too little cortisol, inflammation, too little estradiol and/or conversion to DHT. The causes vary per individual. I have tried to locate the reference I read but the lab website where I saw it has changed and it's not there anymore. I did find an article here, http://www.oasisserene.com/hormones/progesterone-prostate.html that states "Progesterone inhibits the conversion of testosterone to DHT." I certainly don't know the answers and am somewhat confused by the differences in what I read and am told by doctors and what other women experience. Cora, when you were taking 100 mg. progesterone per day, what form was it in? Oral or transdermal? Reply-To: rhythmicliving To: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: Hair loss and hormonesDate: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Hi Cora, i think you should switch from the shut of P to oral every 3-4 months for 10-12 days?! i think it's P converting to T that harms your hair...so i'd stay with 0.1mg of E and switch to oral progesterone...get the micronized kind instead of prometrium, you can get it in 50mg capsules so you could take it throught the day instead of all in one dose. -J.coralibra88 wrote: I am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading daily digests and am impressed with everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my situation and see if you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that time. Two and 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone because I felt terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone at all, but my body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who specializes in menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone every 3-4 months to clear the uterine lining. After trying prometrium, crinone and a shot of P, I settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During that time she ups my E to counteract the

symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P throws my body off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and depression. My problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of my hair which was very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and unmanageable. Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but that has been gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other endos attested to according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to tests. My testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see if it has a positive effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of this trial which I understand will take at least 3 months before results appear if any.Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need numbers Cora

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

Cora, i am like you..very sensitive to P..i was always losing hair during the P phases..and i tried prometrium, micronized P, micronized P vaginally....still i'd be covered with pimples in a few days after starting the cycle and HL would significantly increase.coralibra88 wrote: ,When I am due for my P shot next month, I might try Prometrium again - which is micronized bioidentical. I did it before and still had hair loss, but the loss is worse now. Going through 10-12 days of P is much worse than 7 days,

but I may have to increase my estrogen even more to offset symptoms. I am just one of those women whose biochemistry does not handle P. I really related to the book "The Hormonally Vulnerable Woman." Being a sensitive type, I react to everything i put into my blood type A body. I do, however, respond well to estradiol. Being thin, I have very little in my almost post-menopausal system. Thanks for your suggestion, and I will speak to my endo about the P to T conversion.Cora> I am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading daily digests and am impressed > with everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my situation and see if > you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.> > I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that time. Two and > 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone because I felt > terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone at all, but my > body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who specializes in > menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone every 3-4 > months to clear the uterine lining. After trying

prometrium, crinone and a shot of P, I > settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During that time she ups > my E to counteract the symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P throws my body > off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and depression. > > My problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of my hair which was > very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and unmanageable. > Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but that has been > gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other endos attested to > according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to tests. My > testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see if it has a positive > effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of

this trial which I understand will take at > least 3 months before results appear if any.> > Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need numbers > > Cora > > > > > > > > #define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare>

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

Cora, Hi.... as someone who has/is suffering HL starting with peri

fluctuations, I whole heartedly believe that your HL was initiated by

the shock of P and the dramatic drop ( down regulation of E receptors)

in E it caused... so much so that the slight increase of E you added to

offset is of no value to the follicles at all ( perhaps to other

symptoms, yes).... those who have ESF (exquisitely sensitive follicles)

can't do what others do. I think you found your limit here.

I have tried every form of P. And I am back to the beginning with

oral. Starting out I was on both E and 100 mg oral P a day. Too much

depression. Transdermal, vaginal, caused massive hair loss (HL), yet

the side effects systemically, ie. mood shifts, edema, digestive

woes,... we're minimal, but the HL was huge. I used my formulated

capsules vaginally.

Knowing that for me hormonal shocks cause HL, I have begun taking

progesterone orally at 25 mg a day at the start of my cycle which is

every 2 months. I add 25 mg a day and ease up to 200 mg for 9-10 days

and I will ease off as well. My night time dose of P I am making

sublingual. At the same time I am increasing my enzymes in an effort

to stave off some of the toxic P metabolites... who knows so far.

As for the DHT issue and P. There is some link I suspect to the skin

application of P and DHT production.... 5AR conversion sites, perhaps

in the follicles of skin hair the same as the scalp..... Also, Dr.

Redmond, NYC endo, HL specialist, told me that DHT isn't worth

measuring serum wise as it is very unstable and the test results are

not valid... perhaps the shot of P in the skin caused an abundance of

abnormal DHT conversion...?.... Also, he has repeated to me that the

hair hates drops in E..... I would add that my hair hates any hormonal

shock at all... messing with my thyroid has caused HL!

When dealing with hormones I have learned that slow and steady is the

way to go. Reiss told a friend to taper Vit C even!!

When I was taking daily E and P, no cycling, no periods, I had very

little HL. Cycling is very difficult for woman with HL. Have you

tried sublingual P?

I have also read frequently that P blocks DHT. But, if you don't have

a DHT issue, then it would have to be the hormonal shock to your entire

endocrine system I would think.

Sorry you are having to deal with this.

Eileen

PS... Dr. Vliet told a list member of ours having HL from P that her

hair was falling out from P because of the shock of adding 200 mg at

the onset of her P cycle..... you can get 25 mg formulated and try

sublingual which might be easier bypassing the liver...

Begin forwarded message:

> Re: Hair loss and hormones

> Posted by: " coralibra88 " mosswood@...   coralibra88

>

> Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:49 pm (PST)

> Ladies, thank you for your responses. I will answer all your

> questions but will do so in a

> couple of posts as I have time.

>

> Here are the specifics of the protocol I am on which was prescribed

> to me by a very cutting

> edge endo dr who specializes in this area and who is up on the

> absolute latest.

>

> Vivelle Dot 0.1 2X week (estradiol)

>

> Progesterone Shot every 3 - 5 months to clear uterine lining - I get

> 2 1/2 cc's of a 50 mg

> per cc dosage in oil (total 125 cc) which is suppose to stay in my

> body for about 1 week.

> It is the best quality of micronized bio-identical P. When I was on

> the .075 Vivelle I added

> an additional Vivelle patch of .05 and replaced with with another one

> 3 days later - the

> purpose being to alleviate P symptoms I would get a period on day 8

> or 9 after the shot.

> The periods use to be light, but they have gotten heavier and redder

> during mid flow

> which lasts about 4 days. I don't know what dosage the additional E

> will be since being on

> 0.1 patch. I'll find out in August when I am due for round of P.

>

> My endo wants me to take Halotestin (1/2 to 1 mg pharmaceutical

> testosterone) 5 times a

> week for well-being, bones, and for somehow helping to protect breast

> tissue from

> estrogen. I don't understand this one well yet so that's all I can

> tell you. I, however, do

> not take the halotestin because I am concerned about it contributing

> to my hair loss. She

> is not concerned about that because I am such a low testosterone

> woman - thin, delicately

> boned and muscleless and I have so little T in my body. She does

> highly stress that I

> should take the halotestin a week before and during the P phase to

> help me feel better. I

> tried it and it does work. It bothered my stomach a bit so I have to

> take it in the morning

> and with food.

>

> As to your question about " why " the progesterone shot...I tried

> Crinone, a vaginal

> application over a 2 week period - messy and I don't feel much

> better, Prometrium,

> micronized bio-identical (BI) progesterone for 10 days which I felt

> terrible on. The reason

> I settled on the shot was that it is quick, painless and the whole

> process - period and all is

> over in less than 2 weeks. I might have to double check on this, but

> it seemed to me like I

> lost more hair after I did the round of progesterone.

>

> As far as the question about not losing hair while I was on daily E

> and P...well, yes, that is

> curious. There could be a connection, but I have girlfriends who are

> on the daily regimen

> of E and P and they are losing their hair too. The funny thing is

> they have hair like me -

> naturally curly. I wonder if it something with us curly girls?

>

> I hope that answered most of your questions. I will let you know my

> tests results next

> time.

>

> Cora

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/growhair/

[Guest guest]

Eileen...you are a godsend. You are the first person to describe to me a situation similar to mine. For that, I feel grateful and validated. I don’t know for a fact yet if this hormonal jolt is causing my HL, but my intuition keeps taking me there. Before I saw your post, I had a consult today with my endo. I took some fast notes so I will share what came of it.

She liked my estradiol serum test results which were 104, however, she said to get a fully accurate reading I would have to do a particular test over several days because there may still be some ovarian functioning. There is no reason to do it at this time because I am feeling good on the 0.1 patch.

She told me about a hair loss specialist in San Francisco who is a dermatologist that I could see, but that she would probably recommend Rogaine which I would need to do 2x day for the rest of my life. Not an option for me. Of course, there is the genetic/aging factor. Maybe...but I don’t feel that is true. Sure, I would expect some HL as I age, but not like I am having.

I brought the subject up that I never had this problem until I began this protocol (a pointer inspired by the replies of all you ladies). We began a conversation about progesterone for me which I instigated saying I was concerned about how my body reacts to cycling. She said if I am not ovulating there is no need for P but to protect the uterus by shedding the lining. Sure some women love P, but only about 7%. She is willing to try me on 25 mg/day of compounded oral Bio-I P from Bellevue Pharmacy to see how I do with it for a couple of weeks and then check in to see where to go from there. I would have to go off of it at times during the month to avoid build-up in my system. I don’t quite know how this is going to work yet because I have to do a short trial before proceeding, if I am able to proceed. Breast tenderness and spotting will need to be monitored.

As I understand it, she said I will still have to do the shot (or orally) because it is not enough P to opposed the E. If I didn’t have a shot I would need to take 200 P daily to oppose a 0.1 patch - that would make me suicidal. For a moment I considered going off everything (gradually, of course) because I am so depressed and stressed dealing with this. I have been on HRT since ‘97 so I have no idea what I would be like but I don’t think it would be good. I have real sleep problems for one thing and they have improved on the higher E.

Eileen, I am wondering a couple of things. Are you in menopause? What exactly are you on now? And, the big question, did your hair grow back or at least some of it or most of it? I can see some new growth on the top of my head mostly because I have a good view of that area. I have diffuse HL, but the majority of it is on the sides and back of my head. From one ear and around the whole back of my head to the other ear, and more on the left side than right. I can see through the bottom on my shoulder length hair. Definitely not male pattern baldness.

I know for a fact that my body likes gentle, gradual anything. Vitamins, herbs, etc. I react to it all. I am just recovering from major GI problems from adding amino acids, digestive enzymes and various supplements prescribed by a holistic dr. She thought my HL might be malabsorption caused from food allergies, parasites, gluten intolerance ( a GI doctor disagreed with this). So I followed that path and took a bunch of stuff which made my gut really a mess. I stopped listening to her and listened to body and am healing myself slowly but surely. Sorry, I digressed, that’s another story.

I am trying to find answers for myself because every trial takes about 3 months for changes in HL. I have only enough hair left to try one or two things. There is a timeliness to my problem not to mention that I can’t count on making commitments in my life because I never know how I am going to feel testing these hormones. It is quite a challenge being “a sensitive” and things not working for us the way they work for others.

Thank you all for listening. And special thanks to Eileen for sharing your experience. It helped more than you know.

Cora

[Guest guest]

Hi Cora,

did your doctor say that your P was too low also, (when you both found out

you needed more E) ? Why else would you have to take extra P ? Maybe your

body had enough P and you only have to balance that out with the right

E-dosage ?

I too, am and have always been thin and very sensitive, and have always

been low on E. My doctor said my level of E (110) and P (between 1.6 and

3.0) was pretty good, especially at my age (68).

I have tried P any which way and application, and always had

adverse reactions (differing only in degree between unpleasant and

intolerable!). Now I'm taking Saw Palmetto for T and T to P conversion,

which seems to work for me. I will take a test at the end of July, so can't

give #-results yet.

After the Wiley Protocol calamity, my body has apparently been able to make

E out of Pregnenolone, and now apparently Maca (balancing hormonal

adaptogen). Iodine (which I was quite deficient of) has revved up my thyroid

levels (which all MDs had always found was " normal " ), and homeopathic hGH

for 3 months has stimulated the formerly sluggish pituitary-thyroid-adrenal

hormonal axis to higher vitality again.

Love,

Charlotte

---------------------

Re: Hair loss and hormones

> ,

>

> When I am due for my P shot next month, I might try Prometrium again -

> which is

> micronized bioidentical. I did it before and still had hair loss, but the

> loss is worse now.

> Going through 10-12 days of P is much worse than 7 days, but I may have to

> increase my

> estrogen even more to offset symptoms. I am just one of those women whose

> biochemistry does not handle P. I really related to the book " The

> Hormonally Vulnerable

> Woman. " Being a sensitive type, I react to everything i put into my blood

> type A body. I

> do, however, respond well to estradiol. Being thin, I have very little in

> my almost post-

> menopausal system.

>

> Thanks for your suggestion, and I will speak to my endo about the P to T

> conversion.

>

>

> Cora

>

>> I am new to posting to this group, but I have been reading

>> daily digests and am

> impressed

>> with everyones knowledge of hormones so I thought I would offer my

>> situation and see

> if

>> you have any feedback because I am experiencing significant hair loss.

>>

>> I have been in menopause for 8 years and on various hormones during that

>> time. Two

> and

>> 1/2 years ago I switched from Bi-est and daily 100 mg BI progesterone

>> because I felt

>> terrible but my hair wasn't falling out. I do not do well on progesterone

>> at all, but my

>> body needs estrogen since I naturally run low. A endocrinologist who

>> specializes in

>> menopausal hormones switched me to Vivelle Dot .075 with BI progesterone

>> every 3-4

>> months to clear the uterine lining. After trying prometrium, crinone and

>> a shot of P, I

>> settled on the shot of P which induces a period after one week. During

>> that time she ups

>> my E to counteract the symptoms of P. I am wondering if that jolt of P

>> throws my body

>> off, but taking it regularly makes me utterly miserable with fatigue and

>> depression.

>>

>> My problem is that since I began this protocol I have lost about 1/2 of

>> my hair which

> was

>> very thick and curly. It is now a shadow of its former glory and dry and

>> unmanageable.

>> Granted for about 1 1/2 years I was under a lot of emotional stress, but

>> that has been

>> gone from my life for about a year. It is not my thyroid which two other

>> endos attested

> to

>> according to some comprehensive tests. It is also not DHT according to

>> tests. My

>> testoserone level is also low. My dr. increased my Vivelle to .1 to see

>> if it has a positive

>> effect on my hair. I am only into 1 1/2 months of this trial which I

>> understand will take

> at

>> least 3 months before results appear if any.

>>

>> Any thoughts ladies? I just had a bunch of testing done if you need

>> numbers

>>

>> Cora

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> #define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as

> medical advice.**

>

[Guest guest]

Charlotte...thank you for your interest. In answer to your questions: I had blood tests last month and my P was 0.5 (range: Post Menopausal <0.7). This number is very consistent for me. The dr. doesn’t think I need extra P and she is reluctant to give it to me, but we are trying to figure out a way so that I don’t get such a shock to my system with the P shot every couple of months. We were thinking of gradually building the dosage to clear my uterine lining. I am not committed to this trial, it is only an idea. Meanwhile I am collecting information about possibilities.

As far as the increase in estradiol patch strength from .075 to 0.1, that also is an experiment to see if the extra estrogen will effect HL. I can say I definitely sleep better and am more relaxed. Here are my estradiol blood test levels while on the .075 patch. When possible, I had a blood draw on the day after I changed my patch per my endo.

May 2004.....106

October 2004....53

November 2005...31

As you can see, there is a lot of variety in the numbers. I don’t know why other than my dr. said the increased level was because of continuing ovarian function. There also could have been an absorption problem with the patch. I also noticed that in 2001 while on the Combi-Patch (I think that was what I was on then) my E was 25 and P was 0.6, and I didn’t have any HL. Of course, I was 51 then and was yet to go through the very emotionally stressful period that I did about 2 years ago.

My doctors say that thin people are usually naturally low in E because it lives in fat cells of which we have few. My thyroid numbers vary a lot which is normal for me – if anything I could tend toward hyperthyroid but a close watch is kept on those numbers. I am looking into the Saw Palmetto for the HL. I find it interesting to see what you take. Thank you for sharing that info. Maca has come up a lot lately from various people so I’ll take a look at that too.

Since you are also thin, Charlotte, how are your bones and have they gained/lowered density? I am on the borderline red zone for osteoporosis. Not good, which is another reason I take E. It seems to keep me at least from losing bone.

You also mentioned pituitary/adrenal, etc. Also interesting because I have struggled with adrenal fatigue and would be curious about your homeopath remedy to strengthen those systems.

Since I am obsessed with my HL, I have been noticing how many woman are out there with thin hair at mid-life. It is astonishing that some woman have that tendency and other woman still have a great head of hair. Sometimes I think I may be putting a whole lot of energy into figuring out this HL and hormones when maybe it is just in my genes no matter what I do. I guess I can accept that if I knew for sure. Maybe I never will.

Cora

[Guest guest]

Cora... thanks for your gracious reply to me... hair loss is very

distressing to say the least.... and it seems from the women I dialog

with that the more they actively try to fix it the worst it gets for

awhile. I'm turning from the camp of 'let's throw everything we got at

it', to 'less is a whole lot more'.... if I devised my ultimate HL

repair routine it would look something like this... find a way to get

on one dose of E and stay there for as long as possible... only

increase or decrease E after the indications for such have manifested

themselves over a course of time. When adjustments are required and

carried out, do so with the incremental guideline. Find a way to take

P continuously with breaks.... not at all sure how to pull this off.

I'm worried about IR.

I like the idea of keeping on 25 mg of P continuously, if there is

any merit to the P shock. When we add more P to cycle is it met with

less physical reactiveness??!!.....

Just a suggestion here... perhaps you might call the HL doc in San Fran

ahead of time and find out what her protocol is for peri/meno women. I

know of more than a few women who spent a lot of money on HL

specialists only to find that they are versed in the synthetic hormones

replacements and anti-androgen treatments, including the 5 AR inhibitor

medicines. Not that this wouldn't benefit you. But if you had an idea

of the " tools " you might make a decision more in keeping with your

goals.

I have found that I can tolerate 150 mg P short term... yesterday I

increased to the 200 mg mark and woke with a " dead " foot... it will

creep up and next it will be the whole leg.... so far my mood is OK.

I had peri fluctuations a few years ago drive me to a GYN after my

" natural " attempts at correction were ineffective in dealing with the

HL. At the point that I arrived, my periods where shortening and

sporadic.... her tools included BCP and this was it. Desperate, I said

OK. Fast forward 1 year on the pill. Lost almost half my hair from

the progestins. But, on a good note, I learned that my hair loved the

E. The first 7 months on the BCP grew thickness and hair as I have

never seen. Ahh ha. The thing about poor hormonal decisions and the

hair, is that seem to take forever to correct. We with ESF, can't

afford to just " try " stuff. And when we do, we have to apply the

incremental factor.

Eileen

[Guest guest]

(cora's post)

" If I didn¹t have a shot I

would need to take 200 P daily to oppose a 0.1 patch - that would make

me

suicidal. "

mine>

I don't understand why so much p to oppose the .1 mg E. Do you? I

have always read that the amount was 100 mg a day. I am on 2 .1 dots

with a pump of E gel and my GYN has me on the 100 mg a day P, cycled,

200 mg 10 days.

Cora, I am not in meno. Peri. I am on the Vivelle Dot and compounded

P. This is all. My hair did indeed begin to grow back as/when I got

off the pill last Nov. I was cruising great till March when the post

BCP dred shed hit. It's inevitable for many women. It last's 4-7

months on an average.... most of my new growth took a hit from it....

the price of learning..... as I shed now, and a LOT, I continue not to

look as bad as it seems. Yes, if I have my hair down it is see thru

across the bottom between face and shoulders, esp. on the sides. Top

is covered from the regrowth.

When I went to Redmond shedding while on the pill, he prescribed a T

lowering protocol. Spironolactone, additional E plus the pill..

(Aldactone) My T was 17 at the time. Worse shedding ever.

Cora,... from here, because I am done with trying paths not my own, and

doctors all with a different opinion, I am going to go at all changes

very slowly. I'm tapering everything. Giving my vitamins an careful

study too. There is one gal who lost half her hair with PCOS,

recovered thru antiandrogens and never touches a supplement as she says

she can't trust what they might do, how they might metabolize. Her

hair is now amazing!

Hang in here... listen to your wisdom and I believe you will pull out

of this. ;-))

Eileen

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/growhair/