Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

[Guest guest]

>> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle, when

> it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all

> working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher throughout

> the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be interested

------> ,

Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for

progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when I

first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I had

all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.

Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's correspondance

with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs.

My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much I

put on.

Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never bothered

with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way I

felt.

That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your

levels dropping.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

I too wonder about the blood tests. The highest my P ever got, EVER, was 5.5 and that month my E on that same day was in the 800's. Most of the time my P was 2-3. My saliva tests were off the charts for E and P and my E levels were always 100 or less even on Double E. I think for me, I kept trying to play the numbers game and that's were I got screwed up. I had way to much P in me but kept trying to push for that perfect number.

Liz V.

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of LynnSent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:40 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

>> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle, when > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher throughout > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be interested ------> ,Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially forprogesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when Ifirst started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I hadall the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's correspondancewith Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much Iput on. Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never botheredwith spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way Ifelt.That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and yourlevels dropping.Lynn

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised to see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through blood tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done that most labs are not qualified to reliably do, to detect the real status of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70% of who are hypo.

Cheereo,

Charlotte

RE: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

I too wonder about the blood tests. The highest my P ever got, EVER, was 5.5 and that month my E on that same day was in the 800's. Most of the time my P was 2-3. My saliva tests were off the charts for E and P and my E levels were always 100 or less even on Double E. I think for me, I kept trying to play the numbers game and that's were I got screwed up. I had way to much P in me but kept trying to push for that perfect number.

Liz V.

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of LynnSent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:40 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

>> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle, when > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher throughout > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be interested ------> ,Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially forprogesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when Ifirst started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I hadall the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's correspondancewith Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much Iput on. Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never botheredwith spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way Ifelt.That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and yourlevels dropping.Lynn

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006

[Guest guest]

I too have been wondering why my P levels have been so low on blood tests even though I have tried creams and sublingual drops. It doesn't seem to matter which delivery method I use, the test results show "not enough". Even though I feel that I might be getting too much.I just started seeing a new doctor and he told me that progesteron cream won't show up on regular blood tests because it "piggy-backs" onto the red blood cell so a serum blood test won't show the true picture. That makes sense!

I'll be curious to see the results when he does a red blood cell test.

Reply-To: rhythmicliving To: <rhythmicliving >Subject: Re: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle SixDate: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 14:32:03 -0700

Hi Liz,

I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised to see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through blood tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done that most labs are not qualified to reliably do, to detect the real status of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70% of who are hypo.

Cheereo,

Charlotte

RE: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

I too wonder about the blood tests. The highest my P ever got, EVER, was 5.5 and that month my E on that same day was in the 800's. Most of the time my P was 2-3. My saliva tests were off the charts for E and P and my E levels were always 100 or less even on Double E. I think for me, I kept trying to play the numbers game and that's were I got screwed up. I had way to much P in me but kept trying to push for that perfect number.

Liz V.

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of LynnSent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:40 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

>> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle, when > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher throughout > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be interested ------> ,Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially forprogesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when Ifirst started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I hadall the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's correspondancewith Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much Iput on. Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never botheredwith spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way Ifelt.That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and yourlevels dropping.Lynn

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

,

Where are you located? I'm looking for a new dr. I am now on Valium to control the anxiety. I don't know what else to do. I have tried everything. I'm thinking the P levels have something to do with all of this.

I'm in So. Ca.

Thanks,

Liz

I too have been wondering why my P levels have been so low on blood tests even though I have tried creams and sublingual drops. It doesn't seem to matter which delivery method I use, the test results show "not enough". Even though I feel that I might be getting too much.I just started seeing a new doctor and he told me that progesteron cream won't show up on regular blood tests because it "piggy-backs" onto the red blood cell so a serum blood test won't show the true picture. That makes sense!

I'll be curious to see the results when he does a red blood cell test.

[Guest guest]

Charlotte,

I"m going to go back and read his site again. I wish I knew where to go from here. This is all so confusing to me.

Thanks for you info as always!

Liz

Hi Liz,

I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised to see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through blood tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done that most labs are not qualified to reliably do, to detect the real status of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70% of who are hypo.

Cheereo,

Charlotte

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I am in S. California too. The doctor is in North Hollywood and his name is Dr. Jace. I should mention that I have seen a total of 28 health care practitioners over the last 10 years, trying to handle my severe insomnia and hormonal issues - unsuccessful so far.

I have only seen Dr. Jace twice but am very impressed with his knowledge of so many things. He doesn't just look at hormones, he looks at everything. He also takes the time to talk with the patient and you don't feel rushed as happens with so many doctors. You can read about his philosophy and all the disciplines he is trained in at his website, www.jacemedical.com.

Reply-To: rhythmicliving To: <rhythmicliving >Subject: RE: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle SixDate: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:01:43 -0700

,

Where are you located? I'm looking for a new dr. I am now on Valium to control the anxiety. I don't know what else to do. I have tried everything. I'm thinking the P levels have something to do with all of this.

I'm in So. Ca.

Thanks,

Liz

I too have been wondering why my P levels have been so low on blood tests even though I have tried creams and sublingual drops. It doesn't seem to matter which delivery method I use, the test results show "not enough". Even though I feel that I might be getting too much.I just started seeing a new doctor and he told me that progesteron cream won't show up on regular blood tests because it "piggy-backs" onto the red blood cell so a serum blood test won't show the true picture. That makes sense!

I'll be curious to see the results when he does a red blood cell test.

click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

[Guest guest]

Thank you susan, I will take a look!

Liz

Hi Liz,

I am in S. California too. The doctor is in North Hollywood and his name is Dr. Jace. I should mention that I have seen a total of 28 health care practitioners over the last 10 years, trying to handle my severe insomnia and hormonal issues - unsuccessful so far.

I have only seen Dr. Jace twice but am very impressed with his knowledge of so many things. He doesn't just look at hormones, he looks at everything. He also takes the time to talk with the patient and you don't feel rushed as happens with so many doctors. You can read about his philosophy and all the disciplines he is trained in at his website, www.jacemedical.com.

[Guest guest]

Yes, when Dr. Morton and staff said that to me about the estrogen

receptors in relation to my levels, I realized this was a good

example of where having a knowledgeable doctor was So important with

this program, for there was nothing in the Wiley book about this, as

you know.

But when I read the Wiley book, I assumed it was written for lay

people, and that doctors using the program would have a lot more

information than what was in the book, and also experience in this

field of compounded hormones, and how they work in the body.

It has been shocking to me that many of you on this list apparently

gave the book to your doctors and the doctors just did what the book

said, were having to learn from the book, and some from Wiley

herself, who is not a doctor, not even a college grad! That sounds so

irresponsible to me. Dr. Morton was skeptical until she talked to

other doctors who were working with the program. She found the book

interesting, but not something she could take seriously in and of

itself.

Wiley does talk about our estrogen receptors working or not working

in her book, but it is in relation to our insulin response. She says

if we are insulin resistant, the program won't work. I wonder if some

of the women who have had so many problems with the program are

insulin resistant, and that issue was not addressed properly.

I know from how , Dr. Morton's nurse, has communicated with me

all these months, that the staff at Isis Medicine pays as much or

more attention to how we are feeling, using the blood tests for

confirmation of how we say we are feeling, and as general guides,

more than for the final say about our levels. No matter what my

levels say in the blood tests, if I am having negative symptoms, they

have me change my dosages immediately! Plus, from our conversations,

I get the idea they know the symptoms of P excess and build-up, which

is why women have to pass their approval before they let them start

Wiley. If they have P buildup in the body, they make them detox

first. We KNOW that is NOT discussed in the Wiley book.

I wish Dr. Morton would write her own book, but given the complexity

with which she administers the hormone programs she uses, it probably

would be written for doctors, not for lay people.

-- In rhythmicliving , " Lynn " wrote:

>

> >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle,

when

> > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all

> > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher

throughout

> > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be

interested

>

> ------> ,

> Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for

> progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when I

> first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I had

> all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.

> Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's

correspondance

> with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs.

> My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much

I

> put on.

>

> Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never bothered

> with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way

I

> felt.

>

> That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your

> levels dropping.

>

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

That is what I find so comforting with the people at Isis Medicine, I

just tell them how I feel, and take my tests, and let them worry

about the numbers. I can't imagine having to figure it all out on my

own!

>

> I too wonder about the blood tests. The highest my P ever got,

EVER, was 5.5

> and that month my E on that same day was in the 800's. Most of the

time my P

> was 2-3. My saliva tests were off the charts for E and P and my E

levels

> were always 100 or less even on Double E. I think for me, I kept

trying to

> play the numbers game and that's were I got screwed up. I had way

to much P

> in me but kept trying to push for that perfect number.

>

> Liz V.

>

> _____

>

> From: rhythmicliving

[mailto:rhythmicliving ]

> On Behalf Of Lynn

> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:40 PM

> To: rhythmicliving

> Subject: Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

>

>

> >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle,

when

> > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all

> > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher

throughout

> > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be

interested

>

> ------> ,

> Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for

> progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when I

> first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I had

> all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.

> Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's

correspondance

> with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs.

> My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much

I

> put on.

>

> Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never bothered

> with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way

I

> felt.

>

> That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your

> levels dropping.

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

intended as

> medical advice.**

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have used information for decades from people who say the underarm

thermometer tests, taken throughout the day and calibrated in

relation to the menstrual cycle, are far more accurate than blood

tests for thyroid.

>

> Hi Liz,

> I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised to

see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through blood

tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done that

most labs are not qualified to reliably do, to detect the real status

of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70%

of who are hypo.

> Cheereo,

> Charlotte

> Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

>

>

> >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's

cycle, when

> > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are

all

> > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher

throughout

> > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be

interested

>

> ------> ,

> Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for

> progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning

when I

> first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I

had

> all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low

levels.

> Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's

correspondance

> with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs.

> My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how

much I

> put on.

>

> Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never

bothered

> with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the

way I

> felt.

>

> That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your

> levels dropping.

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

intended as medical advice.**

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, i'd be interested in more info about this..do you know of any books/links on a subject? thank you, -J. MacIlhaney wrote: I have used information for decades from people who say the underarm thermometer tests, taken throughout the day and calibrated in relation to the menstrual cycle, are far more accurate than blood tests for thyroid.>> Hi Liz,> I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised to see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through blood tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done that most labs are not qualified to reliably do, to detect the real status of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70% of who are hypo.> Cheereo,> Charlotte > Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six> > > >> only brought my P up during the last half

of each month's cycle, when > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all > > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher throughout > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be interested > > ------> ,> Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for> progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when I> first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I had> all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.> Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's correspondance> with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much I> put on. > > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never

bothered> with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way I> felt.> > That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your> levels dropping.> > Lynn> > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** > > > >

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, Wiley never presented this to doctors before having

the book published. That is why she was personally making

appearances in our doctor's offices to " hand " them her book. So she

could explain the protocol. Unfortunately, my doctor was not in that

day but he did get the book. If he ever read it, I don't know.

I must say though that when I did the Wiley Protocol, I held my

lining until Day 28. It DID work for me. Then I got my bleed. 3

days of surging bleeding and then less. It worked perfectly! BUT,

then my body retained fluid like you wouldn't believe. I blew up to

twice my size and it felt as if I was holding my breath and couldn't

let it go! Awful ! But I am insulin resistant and maybe that's why

it didn't " work " . I wish Dr. Morton WOULD write her own book.

Maybe you can suggest it to her. However, Dr. Taguchi (co-writer of

Sex, Lies) created her OWN protocol which seemed MUCH more workable

to me. It is somewhere on these archives from last year. I have it

at home somewhere. But I can't do it until I get handle taking 100

mg of P in one day. I believe that the rhythm is what is going to do

it for us. I think this static dosing every day is baloney! Our

bodies do not respond well to this. AT least mine doesn't!

>

>

>

> But when I read the Wiley book, I assumed it was written for lay

> people, and that doctors using the program would have a lot more

> information than what was in the book, and also experience in this

> field of compounded hormones, and how they work in the body.

>

> It has been shocking to me that many of you on this list

apparently

> gave the book to your doctors and the doctors just did what the

book

> said, were having to learn from the book, and some from Wiley

> herself, who is not a doctor, not even a college grad! That sounds

so

> irresponsible to me. Dr. Morton was skeptical until she talked to

> other doctors who were working with the program. She found the

book

> interesting, but not something she could take seriously in and of

> itself.

>

> Wiley does talk about our estrogen receptors working or not

working

> in her book, but it is in relation to our insulin response. She

says

> if we are insulin resistant, the program won't work. I wonder if

some

> of the women who have had so many problems with the program are

> insulin resistant, and that issue was not addressed properly.

>

> I know from how , Dr. Morton's nurse, has communicated with

me

> all these months, that the staff at Isis Medicine pays as much or

> more attention to how we are feeling, using the blood tests for

> confirmation of how we say we are feeling, and as general guides,

> more than for the final say about our levels. No matter what my

> levels say in the blood tests, if I am having negative symptoms,

they

> have me change my dosages immediately! Plus, from our

conversations,

> I get the idea they know the symptoms of P excess and build-up,

which

> is why women have to pass their approval before they let them

start

> Wiley. If they have P buildup in the body, they make them detox

> first. We KNOW that is NOT discussed in the Wiley book.

>

> I wish Dr. Morton would write her own book, but given the

complexity

> with which she administers the hormone programs she uses, it

probably

> would be written for doctors, not for lay people.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Wiley does talk about our estrogen receptors working or not working

> in her book, but it is in relation to our insulin response. She says

> if we are insulin resistant, the program won't work. I wonder if some

> of the women who have had so many problems with the program are

> insulin resistant, and that issue was not addressed properly.

-----> I believe the level of progesterone on her program brings on

insulin resistance. Wiley's research is very poor.

> is why women have to pass their approval before they let them start

> Wiley. If they have P buildup in the body, they make them detox

> first.

-------> What does Leah Morton do to detox women from progesterone

buildups????

Thanks

Lynn

[Guest guest]

,

Can you tell us how your Dr. detoxes her patients from P overdose and how does she know if they are overdosed?

Thanks,

Liz

Yes, when Dr. Morton and staff said that to me about the estrogen receptors in relation to my levels, I realized this was a good example of where having a knowledgeable doctor was So important with this program, for there was nothing in the Wiley book about this, as you know.But when I read the Wiley book, I assumed it was written for lay people, and that doctors using the program would have a lot more information than what was in the book, and also experience in this field of compounded hormones, and how they work in the body.It has been shocking to me that many of you on this list apparently gave the book to your doctors and the doctors just did what the book said, were having to learn from the book, and some from Wiley herself, who is not a doctor, not even a college grad! That sounds so irresponsible to me. Dr. Morton was skeptical until she talked to other doctors who were working with the program. She found the book interesting, but not something she could take seriously in and of itself. Wiley does talk about our estrogen receptors working or not working in her book, but it is in relation to our insulin response. She says if we are insulin resistant, the program won't work. I wonder if some of the women who have had so many problems with the program are insulin resistant, and that issue was not addressed properly.I know from how , Dr. Morton's nurse, has communicated with me all these months, that the staff at Isis Medicine pays as much or more attention to how we are feeling, using the blood tests for confirmation of how we say we are feeling, and as general guides, more than for the final say about our levels. No matter what my levels say in the blood tests, if I am having negative symptoms, they have me change my dosages immediately! Plus, from our conversations, I get the idea they know the symptoms of P excess and build-up, which is why women have to pass their approval before they let them start Wiley. If they have P buildup in the body, they make them detox first. We KNOW that is NOT discussed in the Wiley book.I wish Dr. Morton would write her own book, but given the complexity with which she administers the hormone programs she uses, it probably would be written for doctors, not for lay people.-- In rhythmicliving , "Lynn" wrote:>> >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's cycle, when > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are all > > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher throughout > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be interested > > ------> ,> Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for> progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning when I> first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I had> all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low levels.> Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's correspondance> with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how much I> put on. > > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never bothered> with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the way I> felt.> > That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your> levels dropping.> > Lynn>

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately I don't, but I would suggest starting with a Google

search.

The problem is that in recent years, it has become impossible, or so

it seems to me in less than thorough searches in drugstores, to find

thermometers that contain mercury, and since the thermometer has to

be kept under the arm for 10-20 minutes upon awakening and before

getting out of bed, and I myself never have used the newer types of

thermometers, I don't know if they will work. Can they be put under

the arm to measure temperature there? If not, then unless someone has

or can find one of the old mercury thermometers, this method is no

longer valid. I suppose the mercury thermometers can be found in

other countries?

I think I recall that the underarm temp should be at least 97.6, but

my memory on that is vague, as it has been years since I used this

method. For years, my underarm temp didn't go as high as it should,

but by my mid-40s, when I started 'heating up' as my estrogen levels

went lower, I had higher and higher temps in the mornings when I

would remember to take my temp every now and then.

But I learned about this theory about 30 years ago, and since then,

have read, but I can't remember where, that the temp must be taken at

certain times throughout the day for several days, and at certain

times of the menstrual cycle, if you still have one, or it won't be

accurate, that the morning only method I used was not accurate.

Since my thyroid blood tests always were 'perfect,' and I didn't know

the things I have learned in the last ten years that help people get

off thyroid meds or help support the thyroid so we don't need to go

on them, I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the whole thing.

At Moses Kountry Store in Albuquerque, N.M., you can call and ask for

Wanda Gardner and I know she knows all about this and where to get

the info in books or elsewhere.

> >

> > Hi Liz,

> > I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised

to

> see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through

blood

> tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done

that

> most labs are not qualified to reliably do, to detect the real

status

> of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70%

> of who are hypo.

> > Cheereo,

> > Charlotte

> > Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six

> >

> >

> > >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's

> cycle, when

> > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are

> all

> > > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher

> throughout

> > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be

> interested

> >

> > ------> ,

> > Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for

> > progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning

> when I

> > first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I

> had

> > all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low

> levels.

> > Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's

> correspondance

> > with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs.

> > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how

> much I

> > put on.

> >

> > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never

> bothered

> > with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the

> way I

> > felt.

> >

> > That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your

> > levels dropping.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

> >

> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

> intended as medical advice.**

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I can't remember if I read it in Wiley or Schwarzbein or if my doctor

or staff told me this, but I know that if you bleed for less than

four days, it isn't a 'real period,' for you aren't shedding the

lining of the uterus. Early on the program it is OK and even expected

for us not to have periods at all, or to have short ones like you

did, but if we don't eventually start having 'real periods,'

somethign is wrong. I had real ones from the first month, which

Morton and staff didn't expect, based on what they told me. I have a

hunch, based on my lifetime of research and advising others about how

to take supplements and herbs that my diet and supplements helped me

adjust well to my hormone program without many problems. Just as all

the 'female' problems I had as a teenager (long periods, excess

bleeding, cramps, etc.) all went away when I began working with

supplement programs in college. But Morton probably has some insights

into all of this that will surprise me, for this world of hormone

therapy is SO outside of my 'box' in respect to my background, which

is extensive, on health and nutrition. I began helping friends, at

their request, with supplement programs about 1970, and have been

doing it ever since, but wouldn't begin to advise someone who is on

the hormone program I am on, or any hormone program using natural

hormones for that matter. I know synthetic hormones create

nutritional deficiencies and I know how to address those with

supplements, whether using birth control or menopausal hormone

programs, but don't know how to use supplements with natural hormones.

> >

> >

> >

> > But when I read the Wiley book, I assumed it was written for lay

> > people, and that doctors using the program would have a lot more

> > information than what was in the book, and also experience in

this

> > field of compounded hormones, and how they work in the body.

> >

> > It has been shocking to me that many of you on this list

> apparently

> > gave the book to your doctors and the doctors just did what the

> book

> > said, were having to learn from the book, and some from Wiley

> > herself, who is not a doctor, not even a college grad! That

sounds

> so

> > irresponsible to me. Dr. Morton was skeptical until she talked to

> > other doctors who were working with the program. She found the

> book

> > interesting, but not something she could take seriously in and of

> > itself.

> >

> > Wiley does talk about our estrogen receptors working or not

> working

> > in her book, but it is in relation to our insulin response. She

> says

> > if we are insulin resistant, the program won't work. I wonder if

> some

> > of the women who have had so many problems with the program are

> > insulin resistant, and that issue was not addressed properly.

> >

> > I know from how , Dr. Morton's nurse, has communicated with

> me

> > all these months, that the staff at Isis Medicine pays as much or

> > more attention to how we are feeling, using the blood tests for

> > confirmation of how we say we are feeling, and as general guides,

> > more than for the final say about our levels. No matter what my

> > levels say in the blood tests, if I am having negative symptoms,

> they

> > have me change my dosages immediately! Plus, from our

> conversations,

> > I get the idea they know the symptoms of P excess and build-up,

> which

> > is why women have to pass their approval before they let them

> start

> > Wiley. If they have P buildup in the body, they make them detox

> > first. We KNOW that is NOT discussed in the Wiley book.

> >

> > I wish Dr. Morton would write her own book, but given the

> complexity

> > with which she administers the hormone programs she uses, it

> probably

> > would be written for doctors, not for lay people.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think I recall reading the same info in the Schwarzbein books, too,

but just remember it in more detail from Wiley because of some things

she said that I found interesting. I read it cover to cover twice, long

before I knew it was full of erroneous information. Although some of

you have explained to me that she basically did the writing, and the

actual research discussed in the book is from Formby and Taguchi and

therefore valid. She just put it together. That is why I find it

amazing that doctors listened to and took so seriously someone who

basically is a good journalist and nothing more. She had no business

telling doctors how to do that program. Taguchi should have done that!

You would think they at least would have expected her to have a

Pultitzer Prize, as one of my best friends from college does, before

they would agree to take her seriously (that is a joke -- and I say so

because I realize it is hard to know if something is meant as dry

humor, or not, in emails all too often)! LOL

>

>

> -----> I believe the level of progesterone on her program brings on

> insulin resistance. Wiley's research is very poor.

>

>

> > is why women have to pass their approval before they let them start

> > Wiley. If they have P buildup in the body, they make them detox

> > first.

>

>

> -------> What does Leah Morton do to detox women from progesterone

> buildups????

I assume you saw my answer to your question in the post I wrote the

other day on this list, plus I also said the same thing several weeks

ago on this list, and we have discussed it on the LR list, so you

probably have your answer by now, hopefully. And I may learn more

details from Morton when I see her next month.

> Thanks

> Lynn

>

[Guest guest]

I have written all I know at this point, in as much detail as

possible.

> >

> > >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's

cycle,

> when

> > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are

all

> > > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher

> throughout

> > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be

> interested

> >

> > ------> ,

> > Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for

> > progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning

when I

> > first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I

had

> > all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low

levels.

> > Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's

> correspondance

> > with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs.

> > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how

much

> I

> > put on.

> >

> > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never

bothered

> > with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the

way

> I

> > felt.

> >

> > That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your

> > levels dropping.

> >

> > Lynn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think you misunderstood my post. On Wiley, I did indeed get my

period on Day 28 - right on time. What I meant to say was that I

got a good 3 day BEGINNING of my period (a good surge) and then

lesser bleeding for the rest of my period for 7 days. It wasn't

a " short " period. As for hormones and supplements, if your problems

went away with supplements only, why would you even bother with

HRT? Were you getting flashes or something? My DREAM is to fix my

problems with supplements or herbs. It never happened!

>

> I can't remember if I read it in Wiley or Schwarzbein or if my

doctor

> or staff told me this, but I know that if you bleed for less than

> four days, it isn't a 'real period,' for you aren't shedding the

> lining of the uterus. Early on the program it is OK and even

expected

> for us not to have periods at all, or to have short ones like you

> did, but if we don't eventually start having 'real periods,'

> somethign is wrong.

[Guest guest]

funny, cause i've been doing BBT to figure out when i ovulate...but i use a regular thermometer under my tongue...i know as estrogen increase, the temperature decreases..i didn't realize that there's a thyroid connection as well... -J. MacIlhaney wrote: Unfortunately I don't, but I would suggest starting with a Google search.The problem is that in recent years, it has become impossible, or so it seems to me in less than thorough searches in drugstores, to find thermometers

that contain mercury, and since the thermometer has to be kept under the arm for 10-20 minutes upon awakening and before getting out of bed, and I myself never have used the newer types of thermometers, I don't know if they will work. Can they be put under the arm to measure temperature there? If not, then unless someone has or can find one of the old mercury thermometers, this method is no longer valid. I suppose the mercury thermometers can be found in other countries?I think I recall that the underarm temp should be at least 97.6, but my memory on that is vague, as it has been years since I used this method. For years, my underarm temp didn't go as high as it should, but by my mid-40s, when I started 'heating up' as my estrogen levels went lower, I had higher and higher temps in the mornings when I would remember to take my temp every now and then.But I learned about this theory about 30 years ago, and

since then, have read, but I can't remember where, that the temp must be taken at certain times throughout the day for several days, and at certain times of the menstrual cycle, if you still have one, or it won't be accurate, that the morning only method I used was not accurate. Since my thyroid blood tests always were 'perfect,' and I didn't know the things I have learned in the last ten years that help people get off thyroid meds or help support the thyroid so we don't need to go on them, I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the whole thing.At Moses Kountry Store in Albuquerque, N.M., you can call and ask for Wanda Gardner and I know she knows all about this and where to get the info in books or elsewhere.> >> > Hi Liz,> > I reread Dr. Holtorf's website just last night. I was surprised to > see that he says hormone levels of hypo thyroid people through blood > tests are not reliable. Many other special tests have to be done that > most labs are not qualified to reliably do,

to detect the real status > of the hormones. That is especially true for CFS and FM people, 70% > of who are hypo.> > Cheereo,> > Charlotte > > Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six> > > > > > >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's > cycle, when > > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are > all > > > working properly,

it appears, my E isn't that much higher > throughout > > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be > interested > > > > ------> ,> > Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for> > progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning > when I> > first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I > had> > all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low > levels.> > Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's > correspondance> > with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. > > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how > much I> > put on. > > > > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never > bothered> > with spending the money on it as I

already had my answer in the > way I> > felt.> > > > That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your> > levels dropping.> > > > Lynn> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as medical advice.** > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

She didn't even consult with Formby before the book went into

final. He wanted her to do a TEST group before publishing the book

and she refused!

>

> I think I recall reading the same info in the Schwarzbein books,

too,

> but just remember it in more detail from Wiley because of some

things

> she said that I found interesting. I read it cover to cover twice,

long

> before I knew it was full of erroneous information. Although some

of

> you have explained to me that she basically did the writing, and

the

> actual research discussed in the book is from Formby and Taguchi

and

> therefore valid. She just put it together. That is why I find it

> amazing that doctors listened to and took so seriously someone who

> basically is a good journalist and nothing more. She had no

business

> telling doctors how to do that program. Taguchi should have done

that!

> You would think they at least would have expected her to have a

> Pultitzer Prize, as one of my best friends from college does,

before

> they would agree to take her seriously (that is a joke -- and I

say so

> because I realize it is hard to know if something is meant as dry

> humor, or not, in emails all too often)! LOL

>

[Guest guest]

Oh ja! I take my temp (under tongue) frequently when I don't sleep (haven't slept) well. If it's below 97.6 (hypo-thyroid), I know I forgot to take my iodine (or/and take 1/2 gr. Armour.). If that doesn't help, it may be low blood glucose (most people waking up during the night between 3.30 and 5.30 AM), - then I take 1-2 oz /sips out of my juice glass (btw not orange, which may wake you up more).

Charlotte

-------------

Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six> > > > > > >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's > cycle, when > > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are > all > > > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher > throughout > > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be > interested > > > > ------> ,> > Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for> > progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning > when I> > first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I > had> > all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low > levels.> > Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's > correspondance> > with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. > > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how > much I> > put on. > > > > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never > bothered> > with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the > way I> > felt.> > > > That's interesting about estrogen receptors coming online and your> > levels dropping.> > > > Lynn> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as medical advice.** > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

wait a minute..for ovulation they say the temperatures should be between 96-97...first thing in the morning?! mine have been jumping between 98.3 and 97.3...yesterday it was 96.9, and i had a splitting headache for most of the day?!"Charlotte N." wrote: Oh ja! I take my temp (under tongue) frequently when I don't sleep (haven't slept) well. If it's below 97.6 (hypo-thyroid), I know I forgot to take my iodine (or/and take 1/2 gr. Armour.). If that doesn't help, it may be low blood glucose (most people waking

up during the night between 3.30 and 5.30 AM), - then I take 1-2 oz /sips out of my juice glass (btw not orange, which may wake you up more). Charlotte ------------- Re: My Blood Test, Day 12 Cycle Six> > > > > > >> only brought my P up during the last half of each month's > cycle, when > > > it is supposed to be higher. But now that my E receptors are > all > > > working properly, it appears, my E isn't that much higher > throughout > > > the month than it was without the hormone therapy. I will be

> interested > > > > ------> ,> > Sometimes I really wonder about the blood tests especially for> > progesterone. Mine showed nice levels rising in the beginning > when I> > first started using it. Then later on my blood levels dropped. I > had> > all the signs of god awful high progesterone but really low > levels.> > Personally I believe it hides out in the fat. Laurel's > correspondance> > with Bent Formby suggested it also my hide out in organs. > > My blood levels were showing it in the 2-3 range no matter how > much I> > put on. > > > > Salvia on some people showed off the chart levels. I never > bothered> > with spending the money on it as I already had my answer in the > way I> > felt.> > > > That's interesting about estrogen receptors

coming online and your> > levels dropping.> > > > Lynn> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > > > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as medical advice.** > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

You are right, I did misunderstand or misread. I thought you meant

you had a three-day period. Thanks for correcting that for me.

I really didn't have problems except for my chin hairs and my body

shape changing drastically -- weight in my middle!!! UGH!!! And a

vague sense of a lack of well being that was hard to define.

But those were enough that I wanted to hear what Dr. Morton might

suggest and depending on what she said, I would do that OR go to

Diane for a private consultation. You know the rest of the story. I

DID keep balanced for years with my own knowledge of diet and

supplements, and I used Diane's info for a lot of that, but not jsut

hers, and through Chinese medicine. But AFTER menopause was when it

all seemed to hit me like a bad ton of bricks. Six months into my

hormone program, I am convinced my problems were hormonal, just like

my doctor AND Diane Schwarzbein in her books says. You have to fix

the hormones FIRST or nothing else will get fixed. The controversy

begins of course, when figuring out which hormone program to use! So

far so good, but if Dr. Morton tells me in July we are doing

something else, I am open to that. I realize the information is

changing all the time and I trust her to stay on top of it.

I just checked Schwarz. books and she says insulin resistance can be

a symptom of low estradiol levels. Dr. Morton told me if I didn't go

on a natural hormone program, in a few years I would weigh 300 pounds

and be totally insulin resistant, as I was gaining weight since

menopause and couldn't seem to control my weight like I once did. She

did not think, based on our discussion and my tests, that I was

insulin resistant when I began the program. I don't think I was

either, but I could see how I was heading in that direction. I no

longer am. My body is very different than it was six months ago!

thmicliving , " " wrote:

>

> I think you misunderstood my post. On Wiley, I did indeed get my

> period on Day 28 - right on time. What I meant to say was that I

> got a good 3 day BEGINNING of my period (a good surge) and then

> lesser bleeding for the rest of my period for 7 days. It wasn't

> a " short " period. As for hormones and supplements, if your problems

> went away with supplements only, why would you even bother with

> HRT? Were you getting flashes or something? My DREAM is to fix

my

> problems with supplements or herbs. It never happened!

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I can't remember if I read it in Wiley or Schwarzbein or if my

> doctor

> > or staff told me this, but I know that if you bleed for less than

> > four days, it isn't a 'real period,' for you aren't shedding the

> > lining of the uterus. Early on the program it is OK and even

> expected

> > for us not to have periods at all, or to have short ones like you

> > did, but if we don't eventually start having 'real periods,'

> > somethign is wrong.

>