The Soy Issue

[Guest guest]

Does anyone on this list have information, online, or in your head or can direct me to books, that can explain more than Schwarz. does in her books why soy is NOT good for female hormone balance? She says excess alcohol and/or excessive use of soy can lead to early menopause! She says it messes up our estrogen receptors, that we want them working at optimal levels the older we get as our E levels go lower and lower, and that soy actually suppresses them!

Recently, I learned that 60 mg. of soy protein a day is equal to 'one dose' of Tamoxifen, whatever one dose is. The information wasn't as detailed as I would have liked! Wiley's book or Schwarz., or both, talk about how damaging Tamoxifen is to our hormones!

[Guest guest]

i know, i know..soy and other phytoestrogens behave like estrogens but aren't..they bind to estrogen receptors, so that the real estrogen can't...hence creating the estrogen dificit in the body...Vliet talks about this also my endocrynology book states that there're 2 estrogen receptors alpha and beta..one has higher affinity for soy than then other...McIlhaney's wrote: Does anyone on this list have information, online, or in your head or can direct me to books, that can explain more than Schwarz. does in her books why soy is NOT good for female hormone balance? She says excess alcohol and/or excessive use of soy can lead to early menopause! She says it messes up our

estrogen receptors, that we want them working at optimal levels the older we get as our E levels go lower and lower, and that soy actually suppresses them! Recently, I learned that 60 mg. of soy protein a day is equal to 'one dose' of Tamoxifen, whatever one dose is. The information wasn't as detailed as I would have liked! Wiley's book or Schwarz., or both, talk about how damaging Tamoxifen is to our hormones!

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

McIlhaney's wrote: Does anyone on this list have information, online, or in your head or can direct me to books, that can explain more than Schwarz. does in her books why soy is NOT good for female hormone balance? I will try to answer from my head here. Soy, depending on what dosage you use and whether or not you are pre-menopausal, can act as a hormone blocker (similar to tamoxifen). Now if you are postmeno, soy is estrogenic and it will sit on your estrogen receptors and prevent

your BHRT or HRT from working as it should, since there is no room for the BHRT to sit on the receptors. The other problem with soy is that it is a goitrogen and they have found that if taken over a long time and in large doses it can lower thyroid function. Cancer patients who are on a fermented soy product called Haelen need to take thyroid meds to compensate for that. I have always thought that soy was overrated and have kept a thick file on soy over the years. Authors like Holt claim that the benefits of soy overcome some of the problems with soy such as digestive problems. Sally Fallon and Dr. Enig of Weston Price have written eloquently about the problems with soy over the years and they are the first ones who dared to speak up about the subject. When my son was in his early 20s he became a vegan, everything was soy this way soy that way and then one day he called me from college and told me he was growing a breast. He had a needle biopsy and it was benign. I questioned him what he was eating and drinking out of. I told him to eliminate all soy and not to drink from plastics (due to xenoestrogen side effects aggravating the estrogenic effects). He stopped and the breast growth went down. Never had a problem again. Madeleen click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

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[Guest guest]

i am sure it's a matter of quantity..and a type of soy products like miso, tampeh, soy protein....but thats what she says about phytoestrogens..her books are not an easy reading but very interesting and informative ones...McIlhaney's wrote: Thanks! I googled Vliet, whom I never have heard of except I recall you all mentioning her on this list. I will buy her books! They look interesting. So she too says soy is not good for us? Re: The Soy Issue i know, i know..soy and other phytoestrogens behave like estrogens but aren't..they bind to estrogen receptors, so that the real estrogen can't...hence creating the estrogen dificit in the body...Vliet talks about this click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare

[Guest guest]

Thank you!

I am 'in Shaklee circles,' an MLM company, hope that doesn't irritate you, for it bothers a lot of people who think all MLMs are bad, but anyway, I get a ton of good health info through them, as well as some good products. But that 'group' is very much against what I am doing with my hormone therapy now!!!! LOL And they are SO PRO SOY, so I have been hearing the pro soy arguments for decades now and lived on it for many years. As a result, it is well known in those circles that Shaklee soy protein is not made like others on the market and does not effect the thyroid adversely the way the others do, it is something Shaklee does to it on purpose, since they manufacture their own products. So that justified to me, my use of it all those years, coupled with my lack of thyroid problems and the fact I preferred being all or partly vegetarian.

That thyroid issue has NOTHING to do with this estrogen receptor issue -- they are two separate issues, although obviously they can overlap in people who use a lot of soy! So now there are TWO MAJOR reasons to avoid most soy products and one major reason for me, and others who want to listen to me, LOL, to avoid the specially made Shaklee soy products. I'll get kicked off of a list with over 2000 members if I try to make that argument in public with Shaklee folks, LOL. So I won't try that now....I went through enough when I told them about my hormone program! LOL My husband loves the herbal products Shaklee makes but he is also totally ANTI-SOY! Plus he is severely allergic to it but it took us years to figure that out. It is a wonder he didn't leave me, I made him eat so much of it before we figured that out! LOL

My grandmother, maternal, was having periods at age 60 and so is one of my older sisters. For many reasons, I was expected to not enter menopause until about that age or after either, but had my last period the week I was turning 53. My paternal grandmother had eight kids and her last period after that at age 39 and then lived to be 89 with her mind great until the end! Anyway, I can't help but wonder if eating 60-100 grams many days of my life from SOY PROTEIN for years caused me to have an early menopause, for I seemed to have the genetic propensity and started my periods at age 11, and had early puberty, like my mother's side who have the very late menopause..

AND perhaps the soy is why I had so much trouble after that last menstrual period. My post-menopause era, two years long, and before the present hormone program was begun, was AWFUL, as I already have explained.

I even wonder if my estrogen receptors were so messed up that helped add to my 'need' to get more estradiol from alcohol! And all that nutrition -- supplements, herbs, diet, etc. -- that is supposed to help female hormones probably couldn't work as well either!

I read in a health magazine 30 years ago that soy should be avoided by men because of what it did to their hormones. So I always have been suspicious of it for them for that reason, even though I never could find anymore info on that until recent years.

My husband says the Chinese didn't use soy for humans, originally. They used it for pig food, didn't think it was fit to eat. The Japanese used it for food and created that tradition, which the Chinese then picked up on. He says soy is NOT a part of traditional Chinese medicine, although it is part of traditional Japanese medicine and the two do overlap to some extent. HE says it is AMERICANS who have made soy a big part of Chinese medicine as it is practices in this country.

EVERYONE seems to agree -- Chinese medicine folks, Schwarz., Dr. D'Adamo of blood type theory, etc. etc., -- that FERMENTED soy products are safe and very good for us.

BUT, I was googling Miso lately, which I love, and found a lot of info on its estrogenic effects, so now I am not so sure about it and have decided to avoid it until I talk to Dr. Morton, since she told me to avoid ALL soy.

Another big problem until recently was the genetically modified problem. Shaklee told us for years they refused to say theirs was NOT GM because that would be a lie, because no one in this country could get soy that pure, since the GM was processed in the same plants as the non-GM. THEN the WALL STREET JOURNAL CAME OUT WITH THE EXACT SAME INFO! And they TESTED in private labs on their dime a lot of brands and many that were saying they were not GM actually WERE! A lot of labels changed the labels after the WSJ confronted them about it, or so the article said. I tend to believe the WSJ for its facts, its health writing is excellent! Eventually Shaklee said theirs was not GM, about the same time a lot of other companies started saying the same thing, so I guess the original problem with the processing plants has been solved, I recall we got info on that and I read it in several sources a few years ago. When Americans want something eventually the market will give it to them! LOL

If you have seen or read any of the info on GM foods and some of the theories and fears of the scientists who know a lot about those foods and are against them, you know how dangerous they may possibly be.

And until THIS decade, MOST soy we had access to in this country for at least the last 20 years or so was GM! So it not only messed up our thyroid and hormones, but all the things those anti-GM scientists are saying, our genes, for example!!!!

ALL corn and wheat in the U.S. now is GM from what I understand, UNLESS you buy organic. But wheat and corn are in EVERYTHING! We are creating a science fiction nation!

--- Original Message -----

From: Madeleen

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:04 PM

Subject: Re: The Soy Issue

I will try to answer from my head here. Soy, depending on what dosage you use and whether or not you are pre-menopausal, can act as a hormone blocker (similar to tamoxifen). Now if you are postmeno, soy is estrogenic and it will sit on your estrogen receptors and prevent your BHRT or HRT from working as it should, since there is no room for the BHRT to sit on the receptors.

The other problem with soy is that it is a goitrogen and they have found that if taken over a long time and in large doses it can lower thyroid function. Cancer patients who are on a fermented soy product called Haelen need to take thyroid meds to compensate for that. I have always thought that soy was overrated and have kept a thick file on soy over the years.

Authors like Holt claim that the benefits of soy overcome some of the problems with soy such as digestive problems. Sally Fallon and Dr. Enig of Weston Price have written eloquently about the problems with soy over the years and they are the first ones who dared to speak up about the subject.

When my son was in his early 20s he became a vegan, everything was soy this way soy that way and then one day he called me from college and told me he was growing a breast. He had a needle biopsy and it was benign. I questioned him what he was eating and drinking out of. I told him to eliminate all soy and not to drink from plastics (due to xenoestrogen side effects aggravating the estrogenic effects). He stopped and the breast growth went down. Never had a problem again.

Madeleen

[Guest guest]

goitrogenic? The porponents of soy have said that fermented soy is

not goitrogenic, however it turns out to be too. All those cancer

patients who take the fermented soy Haelen product have to be

monitored for thyroid problems!

-----> Madeleen I would love to take this over the weston price list!

do you have a reference for the Haelen product problem???

So what nui found about saurekraut could also be true????

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Lynn wrote: goitrogenic? -----> Madeleen I would love to take this over the weston price list!do you have a reference for the Haelen product problem??? So what nui found about saurekraut could also be true????Lynn Lynn, There is no real data here, but I will see if there are any references anywhere to fermented soy also being goitrogenic. Maybe in discussions re Haelan. Mostly alt docs are letting their patients know they need to have thyroid checked. I had a client who had been on Haelan for a long time and she always had this funny little cough and she was often fatigued and lo and behold she needed thyroid meds. Cleared up little cough. Madeleen click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

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[Guest guest]

Diane Petoskey, whom I have mentioned a lot, as you know, is a proponent of Shaklee in a big way, although there are some of their products she will NOT recommend, LOL, but she also is a proponent of Standard Process. I have researched SP enough for my husband's patients and some others to conclude that for what you get they are grossly overpriced. I figured out a few years ago that something like 1.5 Shaklee B complex tablet (yes, one and a half tablets) equaled something like 9 B complex every day for ONE WEEK, and the Shaklee offered MORE than all those SP did!

But I defer to Diane when it comes to supplement companies almost 100%, I have been one of her fans for almost 20 years now, and have learned SO much from her, mostly through taped lectures of hers I have on all kinds of health issues. So if SHE says a brand is good, then it is. That is my take on her opinion.

Most of her tapes are heavy on Shaklee because they are BIG in Shaklee circles, and they don't mention SP, but I know from others who go to her privately that she uses SP and says good things about it. Her tapes suggest a lot of products Shaklee doesn't make, and generally are brand specific. Apparently she thinks the SP glandulars are very good.

Diane is the kind of nutritionist, holistic with a wide background in terms of education and experience, who gets people who come to her as a last resort, who have tried EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, many almost dead. And she is often able to work miracles, get women in wheelchairs with MS up and walking. And ALWAYS without drugs!!! ONly through diet and nutrition. She is quite a miracle worker, so if she says SP is good, it doesn't change my mind about their cost for what you get, and I only have known her to recommend Shaklee brand B complex (and other brands of isolated Bs), and I only am familiar with the SP vitamins and not their glandulars -- but if she says SP makes some good products, then I know I can trust that brand. It is very important to me to know what brands to trust! Diane is all about results and so am I. I don't want to waste my money on things that don't work.

IF I get in trouble with my current hormone program and my MD doesn't seem to be helping me, Diane is the one I will turn to for 'recovery.' And IF my hormone program turns out to work well for me over the long haul, I am thinking about going to Diane privately, something I have never done although I have sent many to her, she works with anyone long distance, for a personalized supplement program to complement and enhance my hormone program. She is big on soy though for menopause, I hear, and I am quite sure she won't approve of my Wiley (sort of Wiley! LOL) hormone program. But she helps women recovering from HRT a LOT, I understand. So even though I respect her greatly, I don't agree with her on everything. But I have seen her grow and change through the decades and that is what is important to me, she is not rigid. When she goes through menopause, which may be anytime now, she may make a lot of changes in her ideas! I sure have seen her do it before! LOL

I don't know anything about biotics.

I will find the info on the Shaklee soy and thyroid. LOTS of people get off thyroid meds, get perfect blood tests, with the Shaklee products and most of those programs include the soy protein, interestingly enough. I always have been impressed by that, although I didn't need one of the programs, but now with the soy/estrogen issue, I am steering clear. But it isn't necessary, in my opinion, that those programs include the soy for them to work.

I tried and tried to get one of my husband's patients to quit using the Shaklee soy, a few years ago, because we like to get people to use the blood type food lists and she was a B and soy is BAD for blood type B! She was lowering her thyroid meds with our care and she said whenever she cut out the soy, she didn't feel as good. But she didn't really 'believe' in the blood type diet, so my feeling was it didn't matter since she wasn't following the blood lists in the first place. But at least she tried going without and found it made a big difference in how she felt. Last I heard, she had gotten her thyroid med down to the lowest possible dosage, but she never told me she got off completely and I know she would have by now if she had. But she lowered the meds a LOT by using Shaklee products. My husband fixed a bunch of other stuff going on with her that were hormone related, since she wasn't using any HRT. But he says Chinese medicine can't do much for thyroid problems, certainly cannot get women off their meds if their blood tests show they need it. He and I both like the Shaklee products, some of them, but wish they weren't MLM. It would make it so much easier in so many respects to work with them and get some respect! LOL

---- Original Message -----

From: Madeleen

To: rhythmicliving

Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 10:53 AM

Subject: Re: The Soy Issue

Oh I am not a fan of MLM's although I do think some of them have good products. Mostly it is the pushy sales techniques and testimonials from reputable sources such as doctors that really put me off. I did become a distributor of Transfer Factor but only to be able to buy their products cheaper. Can't stand the promotional hype they send my way. My upline even put a call in with one of their doctor experts (unasked) and he rattled off his expertise to me and would not listen to my questions. Just tried to override me with his bruhahaha! Not impressed.

Question for you, how does Shaklee know that their soy is not goitrogenic? The porponents of soy have said that fermented soy is not goitrogenic, however it turns out to be too. All those cancer patients who take the fermented soy Haelen product have to be monitored for thyroid problems!