Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

March 20, 2009

Hi Lesley,

I agree with every word you wrote below. I am glad I am not totally alone here!

I was beginning to think I was being seen as a an anti-ACT intruder<grin>

Louise

> > > > >

> > > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > > >

> > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it

bad?

> > > > >

> > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > > >

> > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > > >

> > > > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > > > >

> > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a

cause for celebration?

> > > > >

> > > > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10

years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > > > >

> > > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > > >

> > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter

anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed

experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is

not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > > >

> > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment

of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy,

this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme

of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even

then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it,

or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > > >

> > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to

be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We

can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because

we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing

is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it

is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own

states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how

terrible, how tragic! "

> > > > >

> > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged,

it's just an interpretation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that

we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that

we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful

attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are

intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs

to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our

values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations,

evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that

tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right

and good to do, and we leave the situation at that.

> > > > >

> > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best wishes,

> > > > > --

> > > >

> > > > Hi ,

> > > >

> > > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it

is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they

are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > > >

> > > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell

me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago

that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't

care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i

wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > > >

> > > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending

we have no history?

> > > >

> > > > Louise

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

March 20, 2009

Maybe I'm the one out in left field, but I totally get what is saying and what he is not saying. He is not saying that to live in the moment, it's a good idea to tell yourself and others that everything will be wiped out, so what does anything matter, anyway. He is just pointing out the fundamental truth that time will erase all moments and memories -- and to be aware of this could make living in the moment less worrisome as we realize that the current moment is all we really have. So why attach so much importance and weight to our memories? No, don't get rid of them! Just carry them with you lightly.

That's what I get, and I don't understand the counter critique. But am enjoying reading it all!

Helena

Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

Hi Ginny and !> > >> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago. > > > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad? > > > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed? > > > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day? > > > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy. > > > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say, > > > > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world." > > > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration? > > > > > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!" > > > > > > Is that how you would respond? > > > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened. > > > > > > Now, here comes the important point. > > > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing. > > > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything. > > > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice. > > > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway. > > > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes. > > > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!" > > > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation. > > > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that. > > > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time. > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > --> > > > Hi ,> > > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.> > > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially! > > > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.> > > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?> > > > Louise> >>

March 20, 2009

No Louise...I am not referring to you or to anyone ( after all who am I to judge anyone ) I am referring to the actual posting that it contains the thought processes of people in two very different states ( thoughts that apply to people that are totally enlightened and have no anxieties , and thoughts that apply to people who are trying to rid themselves of anxieties and other disorders ).As far as the group here, I believe it consists mostly of ACT-users, with some therapists and the founder watching the postings. But given that people who use ACT have read other things

and ACT is not an island of knowledge.....many other concepts get in the mix.B/RegardsibrahimTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 5:16:30 AMSubject: Re: Impermanence and Letting

Go

> > > > >

> > > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > > >

> > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > > > >

> > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > > >

> > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day?

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > > >

> > > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world."

> > > > >

> > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration?

> > > > >

> > > > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!"

> > > > >

> > > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > > >

> > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > > >

> > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > > >

> > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!"

> > > > >

> > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that.

> > > > >

> > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best wishes,

> > > > > --

> > > >

> > > > Hi ,

> > > >

> > > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > > >

> > > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > > >

> > > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?

> > > >

> > > > Louise

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

March 20, 2009

>

> Maybe I'm the one out in left field, but I totally get what is saying

and what he is not saying. He is not saying that to live in the moment, it's a

good idea to tell yourself and others that everything will be wiped out, so what

does anything matter, anyway. He is just pointing out the fundamental truth

that time will erase all moments and memories -- and to be aware of this could

make living in the moment less worrisome as we realize that the current moment

is all we really have. So why attach so much importance and weight to our

memories? No, don't get rid of them! Just carry them with you lightly.

>

> That's what I get, and I don't understand the counter critique. But am

enjoying reading it all!

>

> Helena

We are all different, Helena. We all react differently to being told time will

erase all moments. I don't feel that it helps me live in the moment to be told

that but others will. Your question Why attach so much imposrtance and weight to

our memories? is a good one but it also seems to assume that everyone does and

therefore the answer is to attach *no* importance to history. The message didn't

come across to me as a light message, quite the opposite<smile>

But again I think it proves that we all come to messages and react to them in

the light of our own personal history!!! So it appears that giving advice to

someone that the moment is erased is contraversial as until they are living life

as if their past moments have been wiped out they will come to every new idea

with their own personal perspective anyway or what some might call

baggage<smile>

You would believe it but as I write I am aware that someone on TV is talking

about a friend who was mildly depressed being put into a home where all the

residents were suffering from Alzheimers and the negative effect it had on her!

Louise

March 20, 2009

Very well written Lesley....I agree on the concepts, but am more struck with the beauty of the writing : it is concise, complete, flows, orderly....etc. I wonder what brought your writing to this superior level...if I may ask.b/regardsibrahimTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, March

20, 2009 12:40:24 AMSubject: Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

True; Alzheimer's patients have had their memories erased - more precisely, they do not seem able to remember the past, even the recent past.

How this relates to what you were writing: Whether the memories are destroyed or simply not accessible, Alzheimer's sufferers can't access that knowledge anymore. Their lives are, as best as we can tell, a disjointed series of moments, like beads on a string that has come undone. It seems that our ability to live functionally and carry out our intentions in the present depends upon our being able to remember the past, doesn't it? As well, it depends upon our being able to be aware of the future, even though we do not know what it consists of. As humans, we engage in the present in a context of both past and future.

As to your contention that people, if told they were happy ten years ago, would not care about it now: I beg to differ. Therapy is full of stories of people who, upon reframing their perspective of past events, find that it affects how they experience their lives in the present. Similarly, many people report that remembering, and being grateful, for past joys is a comfort in difficult times, and gives them strength. I've worked with elderly people, and what I've noticed is that the ones who live long are often the grateful ones - and yet it's not that they had easy lives.

I appreciate that you acknowledge that this is simply your take on life. I also acknowledge that you state that you think we should engage with the present and do what is "right and good". However, I question your use of the term that one day, what is now present will "not matter". In order for something to "not matter" it has to not have an impact. (I'd also point out that if you want to stay present focused, you could also argue that the fact that 100 years hence something would supposedly "not matter" doesn't matter, so to speak, right now: in the present one's suffering certainly does impact the person undergoing it, may impact others, and that impact may "matter" to anyone who has compassion for those involved.)

I do not think that "impermanence" implies that what is happening now means that one day it "won't matter", or "will no longer have an impact." Maybe I prefer the Native American idea that one should act for seven generations to come: how one acts now will affect the lives of those to come for many years. Similarly, how people acted in the past still affects lives today, regardless of whether we remember anything about it or not! The past is no more, true. But the consequences of past actions are most certainly present in the here and now. And our present actions will certainly impact the future.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding how you intend your use of the term, but that is how it reads to me.

all the best, Les

> > > >

> > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > > >

> > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > >

> > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day?

> > > >

> > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > >

> > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > >

> > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world."

> > > >

> > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration?

> > > >

> > > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!"

> > > >

> > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > >

> > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > >

> > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > >

> > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > >

> > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > >

> > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > >

> > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes.

> > > >

> > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!"

> > > >

> > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation.

> > > >

> > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that.

> > > >

> > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > > --

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.

> > >

> > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > >

> > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > >

> > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

March 20, 2009

>

> No Louise...I am not referring to you or to anyone ( after all who am I to

judge anyone ) I am referring to the actual posting that it contains the thought

processes of people in two very different states ( thoughts that apply to people

that are totally enlightened and have no anxieties , and thoughts that apply to

people who are trying to rid themselves of anxieties and other disorders ).

>

> As far as the group here, I believe it consists mostly of ACT-users, with some

therapists and the founder watching the postings. But given that people who use

ACT have read other things and ACT is not an island of knowledge.....many other

concepts get in the mix.

>

> B/Regards

> ibrahim

I still have no idea which writer you presume is in which state, Ibrahim! I was

reacting to one line of thought that i am not sure represents the whole of

someone's thinking and I know my line of thought was just a reaction to a line

of thought.

I think my reaction probably is to assumptions being made. I do have a bit of a

thing about that as throughout my life a lot of assumptions have been made about

me, how I am feeling or even worse how I ought to be feeling. My mother required

total agreement with everything she said and also wanted to control everyone's

feelings. She expected us to fall in line with her rules and feel and think the

way she determined was right and suited her. She still does at 96 and I'm only

just beginning to find out that others were also disturbed by her assumptions

about how people should react.

So my reaction was to withdraw and keep all my feelings and thoughts locked up

inside myself which is why I thought I was the only one who was bothered by her.

Cutting yourself off from others is not a good idea. Connecting is important to

me, which is one of the reasons I responded to this thread, in my own personal

way.

So I think maybe that philosphical views are best presented as options that may

suit some and not others then I feel OK with them. Otherwise I am happy to have

them presented as relatively generalisable if they are based on research.

I always personally react better to advice or suggestions that contain a

sprinkling of perhpas, maybe or if you think this way then.... I was not only

given a theoretical situation (the fairy one) but also told how I would respond

to that question. That just seemed plain odd to me! Where's the evidence is my

first question.

But there you see, having condemned myself to a life of silence and holding my

thoughts and feelings in as that was how I learnt to avoid criticism and attacks

and being told to be careful or I would turn out " mad like my father " a myth I

accepted when I was small, I have a lot of self-expression to catch up on!

My present is my whole being which includes all my past: good, bad and

indifferent moments. But as my father always used to say (dear Dad!) Don't let

it get you down! I try my best not to and much of the time I manage<smile>

Take care,

Louise

March 20, 2009

Louise, you are so right in saying that we all react differently to messages; that is what makes for lively discussion and learning A tool that works for one may not work for someone else, but I do want to hear about other's tools so I can pick it up for my own use -- or not.

I do not assume that everyone places too much weight on their memories and the alternative is to attach "no" importance to history (if I read you right). I just know that I do, but I don't want my memories or history to be erased or to not matter. It is just good advice to myself to carry my memories more lightly. Perhaps that concept would be helpful to others, perhaps not.

I wouldn't want to be "told" by someone, either, that time will erase all moments--implying "so why worry-nothing matters anyway?" I don't think that was the point was making and it is not how I interpreted it. It is not about "telling" yourself that as an aid to living in the present moment; it's just that holding it in awareness MAY help some people to live in the moment more easily.

The example he used about being told you were happy ten years and ago and that knowing that wouldn't matter to you in the present was just a story to illustrate his point--and it didn't really work for me, either so I just skipped over it to focus on the point he was making: time will erase all moments. He further said that, eventually, nothing would matter; some might disagree with that--you can agree or not. Keep in mind that one person's interpretation of "to matter" may differ from another's.

It works for me to hold the idea of impermanence in my awareness because I think I do place too much weight and importance on my memories and on my past. I often ask myself, when deeply distressed about something, if it will matter to me when I am on my death bed. Most often, it won't, so I can then breathe a little easier, put my distress in perspective, and get on with moving toward my values in the moment.

I am glad that we are all different and can learn from each other, but we don't even HAVE to. We can just let it be what it is

Helena

To: ACT_for_the_Public From: knitlou@...Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:57:33 +0000Subject: Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

>> Maybe I'm the one out in left field, but I totally get what is saying and what he is not saying. He is not saying that to live in the moment, it's a good idea to tell yourself and others that everything will be wiped out, so what does anything matter, anyway. He is just pointing out the fundamental truth that time will erase all moments and memories -- and to be aware of this could make living in the moment less worrisome as we realize that the current moment is all we really have. So why attach so much importance and weight to our memories? No, don't get rid of them! Just carry them with you lightly. > > That's what I get, and I don't understand the counter critique. But am enjoying reading it all!> > HelenaWe are all different, Helena. We all react differently to being told time will erase all moments. I don't feel that it helps me live in the moment to be told that but others will. Your question Why attach so much imposrtance and weight to our memories? is a good one but it also seems to assume that everyone does and therefore the answer is to attach *no* importance to history. The message didn't come across to me as a light message, quite the opposite<smile>But again I think it proves that we all come to messages and react to them in the light of our own personal history!!! So it appears that giving advice to someone that the moment is erased is contraversial as until they are living life as if their past moments have been wiped out they will come to every new idea with their own personal perspective anyway or what some might call baggage<smile>You would believe it but as I write I am aware that someone on TV is talking about a friend who was mildly depressed being put into a home where all the residents were suffering from Alzheimers and the negative effect it had on her!Louise

March 20, 2009

<<<How this relates to what you were writing: Whether the memories are destroyed

or simply not accessible, Alzheimer's sufferers can't access that knowledge

anymore. Their lives are, as best as we can tell, a disjointed series of

moments, like beads on a string that has come undone. It seems that our ability

to live functionally and carry out our intentions in the present depends upon

our being able to remember the past, doesn't it? As well, it depends upon our

being able to be aware of the future, even though we do not know what it

consists of. As humans, we engage in the present in a context of both past and

future.>>>

Absolutely. But no one is saying that we would be better off without memories,

or without thoughts of the future. It goes without saying that we need those

things to function effectively in the world. We also need language, words,

thoughts, images, thinking, analysis, the mind--even though our *relationship*

to those things often contributes to our problems.

<<<However, I question your use of the term that one day, what is now present

will " not matter " . In order for something to " not matter " it has to not have an

impact. (I'd also point out that if you want to stay present focused, you could

also argue that the fact that 100 years hence something would supposedly " not

matter " doesn't matter, so to speak, right now: in the present one's suffering

certainly does impact the person undergoing it, may impact others, and that

impact may " matter " to anyone who has compassion for those involved.)>>>

When I say that something " matters " or " doesn't matter " , I'm speaking

conventionally, not absolutely.

Whether or not something " matters " is not a question that can have an absolute,

objective answer. Matters to who? We have to specify.

1,000 years ago, in a castle somewhere in Europe, a man cheated on his wife,

causing her great emotional pain. Does that matter? Well, it obviously

mattered to her at the time. But it doesn't matter much to anyone now, or at

least it didn't matter until it got randomly introduced into this discussion.

" Mattering " is in the mind of the beholder. Things that matter to me now might

not matter to me later, and vice versa. Things that matter to me, might not

matter to you, and vice versa. Some things matter to both of us. Some things

matter to neither of us.

That's all that we can really say as far as " mattering " is concerned.

Now, contemplating what I just said can create a ripple of reactions in the

mind. " Oh no, you mean that what matters to me—this suffering that I am trying

to get through—doesn't matter to anyone else? I guess it doesn't. Life is

hopeless. "

But that's just the mind train going off again, leaping to conclusions that

aren't necessarily true.

<<<The past is no more, true. But the consequences of past actions are most

certainly present in the here and now. And our present actions will certainly

impact the future.>>>

OK, so we should take good, wise, prudent, responsible actions.

Notice, however, that in order to take those actions, we don't have to embrace

the questionable idea that what we do is *eternally* important. I would suggest

that at least in some cases, embracing that idea adds unnecessary pressure to

the situation, making effective actions and responses to situations more

difficult.

When something matters to us, we struggle for it, we strive for it, we fight for

it, we seek it out, as we should. As we should.

The point is that this process can easily become overwhelming. It can easily

make things heavy, weighty, momentous, pressured, all-or-nothing.

The question is this.

What happens when we step back, and take the larger perspective, the perspective

that is not trapped in *this* instant of my life right here, whatever is going

on in that instant, the perspective that sees it not only arising, but ALSO

fading away for eternity, as we can say, FOR A FACT, that it will do.

Does it become lighter? Easier to work with? Easier to cope with? Easier to

endure? Easier to get through, particularly when it is unpleasant?

Does it relax us, calm us down a bit, maybe give us a bit of mental space in

which to work, so that we can deal with it in a wiser manner, and possibly take

more effective actions in response to it?

For me, the answer is yes.

" If I don't find a way to fix this problem of mine, look at all the wonderful

happiness I will lose! "

But you will lose it to time anyway! Can't you see that? The stakes are not as

high as you think. So why get so wrapped up? Maybe you can just let go, take

whatever things come, however they happen to come. You don't have to worry,

they will equalize on their own. There will come a time—soon, in the grand

scheme of things—when the differences between them will not make much of a

difference any more.

I'm offering this perspective for others to gently play around with, just to see

what happens.

If the perspective doesn't " do it " for you, if it doesn't help, that's fine.

Just put it aside and take whatever does work ;-)

Best wishes,

--