Jump to content
RemedySpot.com

Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

Rate this topic

Guest guest

By Guest guest
in Health, Medicine and Natural Healing 09

 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi ,

It makes so much sense. Thank you. You're great with words.

>

> Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

>

> What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

>

> How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited?

Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

>

> What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your

mental day-to-day?

>

> Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

>

> Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

>

> " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were

feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing

and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of

a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of

the world. "

>

> How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for

celebration?

>

> " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

>

> Is that how you would respond?

>

> No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The

moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and

went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for

all we care, it might as well have never happened.

>

> Now, here comes the important point.

>

> If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our

lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

>

> Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

>

> Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling

to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it,

it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or

bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

>

> When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so

important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let

go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know

that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

>

> Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

>

> Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

>

> But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just

an interpretation.

>

> Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should

quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should

engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our

minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting,

we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our

business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on,

without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

>

> To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When

you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the

fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in

their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased

it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes

up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So

relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

>

> Best wishes,

> --

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi ,

I love your posts - how come you have so much wisdom?

Simone

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, 19 March, 2009 4:14:03Subject: Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

Hi ,It makes so much sense. Thank you. You're great with words.>> Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago. > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad? > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed? > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day? > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say, > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world." > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration? > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!" > > Is that how you would respond? > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all

we care, it might as well have never happened. > > Now, here comes the important point. > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing. > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything. > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice. > > When

we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway. > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes. > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!" > > But that's just

another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation. > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that. > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle

with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time. > > Best wishes,> -->

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

>

> Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

>

> What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

>

> How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited?

Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

>

> What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your

mental day-to-day?

>

> Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

>

> Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

>

> " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were

feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing

and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of

a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of

the world. "

>

> How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for

celebration?

>

> " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

>

> Is that how you would respond?

>

> No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The

moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and

went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for

all we care, it might as well have never happened.

>

> Now, here comes the important point.

>

> If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our

lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

>

> Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

>

> Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling

to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it,

it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or

bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

>

> When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so

important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let

go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know

that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

>

> Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

>

> Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

>

> But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just

an interpretation.

>

> Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should

quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should

engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our

minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting,

we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our

business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on,

without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

>

> To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When

you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the

fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in

their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased

it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes

up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So

relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

>

> Best wishes,

> --

Hi ,

I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not

the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists

of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I

was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have

no history?

Louise

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Ya know, there ARE people who have every moment erased, and just let go.

They've got Alzheimer's.

> >

> > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> >

> > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> >

> > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> >

> > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your

mental day-to-day?

> >

> > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> >

> > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> >

> > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were

feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing

and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of

a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of

the world. "

> >

> > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> >

> > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> >

> > Is that how you would respond?

> >

> > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The

moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and

went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for

all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> >

> > Now, here comes the important point.

> >

> > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our

lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> >

> > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> >

> > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> >

> > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so

important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let

go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know

that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> >

> > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> >

> > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> >

> > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> >

> > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> >

> > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When

you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the

fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in

their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased

it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes

up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So

relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > --

>

> Hi ,

>

> I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

>

> It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

>

> I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I

was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

>

> There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

>

> Louise

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

If we could make our history good then that might make now good. If we can make

now good then perhaps the next moment will be good too, or even better. The

trouble is that for those of us in pain it doesn't work because trying to figure

it out becomes broading and broading causes anxiety and depression. Sometimes

working on problems can work, with say CBT or some other effective therapy. But

most therapies, including CBT, has identified broading (rumination) as making

the suffering worse. I think this is what Brain is saying.

I have recently come to the conclusion that I am suppressing thoughts when I try

to let them go. I came home from work tonight and it was dark, cold, empty, and

untidy. Hopelessness went through my mind and I immediatley let it go. I ended

up sruggling with the hopelessness trying to let it go and telling myself off

when I failed to do so saying I am not doing ACT proplerly. I couldn't stop the

thoughts, or my need to think them, but I could allow myself to be less affected

by these thoughts, and this was easier when getting on with my tasks or when

just being aware of my breath and the feelings in my body. By doing this I am

learning a new way of being: being with my guitar, being with washing the

dishes, being with making my tea, etc. I'm learning the art of not ruminating,

the art of simply being here.

'But what if I don't get any better and just stay like this forever?', I think

to myself. Oh well, that's just another thought. And even if I did stay like

this forever rumination isn't going to help. I'm losing interest in these

thoughts, the task at hand is far more compelling and I am quite exited about

where all this might lead to.

Kavy

> >

> > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> >

> > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> >

> > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> >

> > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your

mental day-to-day?

> >

> > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> >

> > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> >

> > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were

feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing

and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of

a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of

the world. "

> >

> > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> >

> > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> >

> > Is that how you would respond?

> >

> > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The

moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and

went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for

all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> >

> > Now, here comes the important point.

> >

> > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our

lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> >

> > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> >

> > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> >

> > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so

important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let

go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know

that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> >

> > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> >

> > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> >

> > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> >

> > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> >

> > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When

you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the

fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in

their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased

it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes

up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So

relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > --

>

> Hi ,

>

> I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

>

> It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

>

> I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I

was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

>

> There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

>

> Louise

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi Les and Louise,

I don't think that is suggesting that we should erase any moments. You don't have to tell yourself that your moments will be erased -- they will be (by time, not by you), no matter what you tell youself. You don't have to try to change anything that happened or pretend you don't have a history -- you can't.

I think he is suggesting that we could choose to view life events and memories differently, without attaching so much weight and importance to them, since they are fleeting and will soon be erased. So why struggle? Living in the moment is not so much about forgetting as letting. Letting go and letting things just be. (BTW, my favorite Beatles' song: "Let it Be")

People with Alzheimer's may have had their moments erased, but they lost themselves because of the disease, not from willingly letting go. We want to be able to let go without losing ourselves, our memories, or our histories.

Time will erase our moments indiscriminantly with no effort from us. So, since I especially loved these words from 's message, allow me to repeat them:

> > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing. > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything. > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

....

> > So relax, let go, and just be.

Best to all,

Helena

Re: Impermanence and Letting GoYa know, there ARE people who have every moment erased, and just let go.They've got Alzheimer's.> >> > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago. > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad? > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed? > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day? > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy. > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say, > > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world." > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration? > > > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!" > > > > Is that how you would respond? > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened. > > > > Now, here comes the important point. > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing. > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything. > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice. > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter-anyway. > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes. > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!" > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation. > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that. > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time. > > > > Best wishes,> > --> > Hi ,> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially! > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?> > Louise>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

On reading my post I can see how it could be misintrepreted. I don't mean we

should not try to improve our current situation; there is nothing wrong with

making things good in the here and now. It is trying to think through what is

wrong with us and looking at all our faults thinking that this will improve us

which causes the damage. We only end up seeing more and more things wrong and

get more depressed, desperate, and hopeless.

I'm sure Brain doesn't mean we should lose our memories or have greats thoughts

for the future. We all have fond memeries that we treasure, and memories that

are painful but can help us to heal. And we all have aspirations and dreams. But

it's the art of living in the present that can really help us to transend our

suffering and hopefully heal us too.

Kavy

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

<<<I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way that humans are made.>>>

What makes you think that living in accordance with " the way humans are made " is

a good idea? It may be a good idea, but it may also be a bad idea. To find

out, we have to look and see.

Remember, evolution is what made us. It doesn't care one iota about anyone's

suffering. The only thing that it cares about is whether genes survive into the

next generation. If a given psychological tendency increases the statistical

likelihood of that happening, then evolution will select for it, even if the

tendency causes incredible pain and misery.

Let me give an example. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to be

concerned about how we appear physically. The evolutionary logic for this

concern is obvious: how we appear physically affects the extent to which we

successfully attract mates, and therefore the extent to which we reproduce.

Now, the tendency to care deeply about how we appear physically works great for

those who are attractive, healthy, fit, and so on. They can " get inside " the

head space of beauty, get absorbed in the quest to look good, and be just

fine--at least until they get old and start losing it all.

But what about those who are not attractive, healthy, fit, and so on? What

about the teenager who is overweight, ugly, different in some way? She has the

same tendency to care about how she looks as the rest. So she suffers.

Evolution doesn't care that she suffers. It designed human beings to be

concerned about physical appearances knowing full well that those who don't fit

the mold would suffer as a result.

Now, if it were possible to somehow break down her notion that her physical

appearance is important in a special, privileged way, would that be a good

thing? I certainly would think so. Wouldn't you? If she doesn't get absorbed

in the futile quest to look good, or to fit some stupid, externally-imposed

mold, if she can let go of the artificial standards that genes and culture

inject into human thinking, then she won't suffer as much at the thought " I'm

not pretty like the other girls are! " She might come to the enlightened

realization, " Great. And why do I have to care? "

This connects to what I was saying in the previous post. As human beings, we

are naturally inclined to get completely absorbed in how things are going. We

get into a deep struggle with life to find our little chunk of happiness--that

perfect relationship, that perfect family, that perfect achievement, that

perfect set of warm, happy, worthwhile, delicious life experiences,

whatever--and when it doesn't happen, we suffer all the more. Even worse, we

compare our unwanted situations to those of other people for whom perfect things

do seem to happen, and it hurts. We get frustrated, angry, depressed, and sad

that for some reason our lives--the only lives we will ever have--are refusing

to measure up to our hopes and expectations.

If something could demonstrate to us that that these things that we seek so

dearly are fleeting anyway, that in the end all mental states and

experiences--happy, sad, good, bad, anxious, depressed, excited, joyous, warm,

delicious, awful--quickly dissolve away, as if they had never happened at all,

might that not be a good thing, something that loosens us up a bit, something

that gives us a bit more freedom and space and wisdom and perspective through

which to cope with life's difficulties and frustrations?

For me, yes.

<<<It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!>>>

If it doesn't help you, then don't tell yourself that. Tell yourself whatever

works for you, whatever you can believe.

But I assure you that if you look closely at your experiences, you will see that

time continually erases them from existence. They only live on in the world of

memory, where they cannot satisfy anything.

<<<I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I

was blissfully happy ten years ago.>>>

But why would it be pointless? If mental states--what makes life sweet and

delicious--really do have enduring value, then it would be wonderful news to

hear that life was a fairy tale for you 10 years ago.

It's not wonderful news because mental states don't have enduring value.

Recognizing that, it becomes easier for us to work with and accept them,

particularly when they are unpleasant. They pass, and then it doesn't matter

anyway.

<<<I wouldn't say it is pointless trying to learn from my past though.>>>

And I didn't say that either. Of course we should learn from our pasts.

Best wishes,

--

> >

> > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> >

> > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> >

> > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> >

> > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your

mental day-to-day?

> >

> > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> >

> > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> >

> > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were

feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing

and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of

a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of

the world. "

> >

> > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> >

> > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> >

> > Is that how you would respond?

> >

> > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The

moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and

went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for

all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> >

> > Now, here comes the important point.

> >

> > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our

lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> >

> > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> >

> > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> >

> > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so

important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let

go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know

that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> >

> > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> >

> > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> >

> > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> >

> > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> >

> > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When

you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the

fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in

their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased

it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes

up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So

relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > --

>

> Hi ,

>

> I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

>

> It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

>

> I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I

was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

>

> There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

>

> Louise

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

<<<Ya know, there ARE people who have every moment erased, and just let go.

They've got Alzheimer's.>>>

Yeah, but see their moments aren't just erased from existence (like ours are),

they are also erased from memory. That's obviously a problem ;-)

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

<<<If we could make our history good then that might make now good. If we can

make now good then perhaps the next moment will be good too, or even better.>>>

Let's focus on the mental side, because that's where the *really* good stuff is

supposed to be. Not in some state of affairs (i.e., I have perfect girlfriend,

I have perfect job, I have perfect whatever), but in what we *feel* given that

state of affairs. The joy, the warmth, the happiness, the completeness.

I could give an infinitely large supply of that stuff to your past self, and it

would still be worthless to you now. In 10 years time, I could give an

infinitely large supply of that stuff to the you that is reading this right now,

and it would be equally worthless.

<<<'But what if I don't get any better and just stay like this forever?'>>>

When I'm depressed about something, and I have the thought " what if this is it,

the rest of my life in this hole? " , it calms me a bit to know that there will

come a time--actually quite soon in the grand scheme of things--when it really

will not have made any difference.

On my deathbed, I could be looking back at memories of struggle and frustration,

or I could be looking back at memories of warmth and happiness (being on a beach

with my soul mate, in perfect health, with a perfect job, a perfect life,

anticipating a perfect future). Either way, I will be looking back, seeing how

both of those possibilities eventually dissolved into the same thing, equalizing

any differences that may have existed between them.

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

>

> <<<I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way that humans are made.>>>

>

> What makes you think that living in accordance with " the way humans are made "

is a good idea? It may be a good idea, but it may also be a bad idea. To find

out, we have to look and see.

What makes you think that I think that? Why does it have to be a good idea or a

bad idea? Why do we need to analyse at all? Isn't is just a fact we need to

accept, good or bad?

>

> Remember, evolution is what made us. It doesn't care one iota about anyone's

suffering. The only thing that it cares about is whether genes survive into the

next generation. If a given psychological tendency increases the statistical

likelihood of that happening, then evolution will select for it, even if the

tendency causes incredible pain and misery.

>

> Let me give an example. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to be

concerned about how we appear physically. The evolutionary logic for this

concern is obvious: how we appear physically affects the extent to which we

successfully attract mates, and therefore the extent to which we reproduce.

Well as I understand it humans are affected by things like waist hip ratio when

choosing a mate without necessarily realising that they are. It doesn't

necessarily mean that everyone obsesses about their appearance. Much of these

evolutionary forces operate without our being conscious, at least until people

started studying evolution and evo psych.

>

> Now, the tendency to care deeply about how we appear physically works great

for those who are attractive, healthy, fit, and so on. They can " get inside "

the head space of beauty, get absorbed in the quest to look good, and be just

fine--at least until they get old and start losing it all.

>

> But what about those who are not attractive, healthy, fit, and so on? What

about the teenager who is overweight, ugly, different in some way? She has the

same tendency to care about how she looks as the rest. So she suffers.

Evolution doesn't care that she suffers. It designed human beings to be

concerned about physical appearances knowing full well that those who don't fit

the mold would suffer as a result.

>

> Now, if it were possible to somehow break down her notion that her physical

appearance is important in a special, privileged way, would that be a good

thing? I certainly would think so. Wouldn't you? If she doesn't get absorbed

in the futile quest to look good, or to fit some stupid, externally-imposed

mold, if she can let go of the artificial standards that genes and culture

inject into human thinking, then she won't suffer as much at the thought " I'm

not pretty like the other girls are! " She might come to the enlightened

realization, " Great. And why do I have to care? "

>

> This connects to what I was saying in the previous post. As human beings, we

are naturally inclined to get completely absorbed in how things are going. We

get into a deep struggle with life to find our little chunk of happiness--that

perfect relationship, that perfect family, that perfect achievement, that

perfect set of warm, happy, worthwhile, delicious life experiences,

whatever--and when it doesn't happen, we suffer all the more. Even worse, we

compare our unwanted situations to those of other people for whom perfect things

do seem to happen, and it hurts. We get frustrated, angry, depressed, and sad

that for some reason our lives--the only lives we will ever have--are refusing

to measure up to our hopes and expectations.

>

> If something could demonstrate to us that that these things that we seek so

dearly are fleeting anyway, that in the end all mental states and

experiences--happy, sad, good, bad, anxious, depressed, excited, joyous, warm,

delicious, awful--quickly dissolve away, as if they had never happened at all,

might that not be a good thing, something that loosens us up a bit, something

that gives us a bit more freedom and space and wisdom and perspective through

which to cope with life's difficulties and frustrations?

>

> For me, yes.

It does not have that effect on me at all but we are all individuals.

I am just curious about whether this is all standard ACT thinking? Or is it just

a way of thinking about life you find helpful and I for some reason can't relate

to. That's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to feel this

is going beyond what I feel is helpful and indeed does seem nihilistic to me. I

just don't feel the need to tell myself everything is impermanent to be healthy

as I see it. That seems to be doing exactly what I have been taught not to do in

CBT. Replace an unpleasant thought with a " comforting " one. In other words

rather than saying my past is something I will never get over to say that

nothing has any significance as it is ephemeral seems unnecessary.

>

> <<<It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!>>>

>

> If it doesn't help you, then don't tell yourself that. Tell yourself whatever

works for you, whatever you can believe.

>

> But I assure you that if you look closely at your experiences, you will see

that time continually erases them from existence. They only live on in the

world of memory, where they cannot satisfy anything.

I don't understand the point you are making here. Of course they live on in

memory what do you mean when you say " Time continuously erases my experiences

from existence " . I just cannot get my head around why it helps me to think that

or what it means anyway. I don't think I have ever imagined experiences can live

on except in my head. Some of them still affect me today in bad or good ways

because I have the capacity to remember and because some of them have actually

changed me. Reading your e-mails will have changed me. Reading books changes me.

>

> <<<I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago.>>>

>

> But why would it be pointless?

It would be pointless because I don't believe in magic.

>If mental states--what makes life sweet and delicious--really do have enduring

value, then it would be wonderful news to hear that life was a fairy tale for

you 10 years ago.

I don't believe mental states never change and I don't think that is something I

have ever believed. They change all the time but they can be affected by our

past experiences, memories etc. and that's just a fact. Telling me that every

moment is erased from existence won't change that. Isn't there a middle way

though? I neither have to say mental states are immutable or enduring nor that

" The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened. " >

> It's not wonderful news because mental states don't have enduring value.

Recognizing that, it becomes easier for us to work with and accept them,

particularly when they are unpleasant. They pass, and then it doesn't matter

anyway.

That makes more sense to me :-)

>

> <<<I wouldn't say it is pointless trying to learn from my past though.>>>

>

> And I didn't say that either. Of course we should learn from our pasts.

Sorry I'm still a bit confused. Maybe the philosophy is beyond me.

>

> Best wishes,

> --

And best wishes from me:-)

Louise

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Rock on, ! :) Love your comments.

Isn't it almost the if-you-found-out-you-had-six-months-to-live perspective? Everything that is truly important becomes crystal clear and everything petty & insubstantial (which is most of everything) falls away?

Subject: Re: Impermanence and Letting GoTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 3:45 PM

<<<I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way that humans are made.>>>What makes you think that living in accordance with "the way humans are made" is a good idea? It may be a good idea, but it may also be a bad idea. To find out, we have to look and see. Remember, evolution is what made us. It doesn't care one iota about anyone's suffering. The only thing that it cares about is whether genes survive into the next generation. If a given psychological tendency increases the statistical likelihood of that happening, then evolution will select for it, even if the tendency causes incredible pain and misery. Let me give an example. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to be concerned about how we appear physically. The evolutionary logic for this concern is obvious: how we appear physically affects the extent to which we successfully attract mates, and therefore

the extent to which we reproduce. Now, the tendency to care deeply about how we appear physically works great for those who are attractive, healthy, fit, and so on. They can "get inside" the head space of beauty, get absorbed in the quest to look good, and be just fine--at least until they get old and start losing it all. But what about those who are not attractive, healthy, fit, and so on? What about the teenager who is overweight, ugly, different in some way? She has the same tendency to care about how she looks as the rest. So she suffers. Evolution doesn't care that she suffers. It designed human beings to be concerned about physical appearances knowing full well that those who don't fit the mold would suffer as a result. Now, if it were possible to somehow break down her notion that her physical appearance is important in a special, privileged way, would that be a good thing? I certainly would think so. Wouldn't you? If she

doesn't get absorbed in the futile quest to look good, or to fit some stupid, externally-imposed mold, if she can let go of the artificial standards that genes and culture inject into human thinking, then she won't suffer as much at the thought "I'm not pretty like the other girls are!" She might come to the enlightened realization, "Great. And why do I have to care?" This connects to what I was saying in the previous post. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to get completely absorbed in how things are going. We get into a deep struggle with life to find our little chunk of happiness--that perfect relationship, that perfect family, that perfect achievement, that perfect set of warm, happy, worthwhile, delicious life experiences, whatever--and when it doesn't happen, we suffer all the more. Even worse, we compare our unwanted situations to those of other people for whom perfect things do seem to happen, and it hurts. We get frustrated,

angry, depressed, and sad that for some reason our lives--the only lives we will ever have--are refusing to measure up to our hopes and expectations. If something could demonstrate to us that that these things that we seek so dearly are fleeting anyway, that in the end all mental states and experiences- -happy, sad, good, bad, anxious, depressed, excited, joyous, warm, delicious, awful--quickly dissolve away, as if they had never happened at all, might that not be a good thing, something that loosens us up a bit, something that gives us a bit more freedom and space and wisdom and perspective through which to cope with life's difficulties and frustrations? For me, yes. <<<It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!>>>If it doesn't help you, then don't tell yourself that. Tell yourself whatever works for you,

whatever you can believe. But I assure you that if you look closely at your experiences, you will see that time continually erases them from existence. They only live on in the world of memory, where they cannot satisfy anything. <<<I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago.>>>But why would it be pointless? If mental states--what makes life sweet and delicious--really do have enduring value, then it would be wonderful news to hear that life was a fairy tale for you 10 years ago. It's not wonderful news because mental states don't have enduring value. Recognizing that, it becomes easier for us to work with and accept them, particularly when they are unpleasant. They pass, and then it doesn't matter anyway. <<<I wouldn't say it is pointless trying to learn from my past though.>>>And I didn't say that

either. Of course we should learn from our pasts. Best wishes,--> >> > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago. > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad? > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you

overwhelmed? > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day? > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy. > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say, > > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world." > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration? > > > > "How

wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!" > > > > Is that how you would respond? > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened. > > > > Now, here comes the important point. > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing. > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It

will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything. > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice. > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway. > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax,

to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes. > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!" > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation. > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our

focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that. > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > > Best wishes,> > --> > Hi ,> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially! > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.> > There is surely a

difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?> > Louise>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

I don't think the Alzheimer's comment was meant all that seriously....I actually

smiled when I read it

(I don't think anyone would play down the seriousness of the disease)

> > > >

> > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it

bad?

> > > >

> > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > >

> > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > > >

> > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > >

> > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > >

> > > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > > >

> > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a

cause for celebration?

> > > >

> > > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10

years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > > >

> > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > >

> > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > >

> > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > >

> > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > >

> > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > >

> > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > >

> > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > > >

> > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is

a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > > >

> > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > > >

> > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > > >

> > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > > --

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it

is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they

are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> > >

> > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > >

> > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell

me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago

that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't

care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i

wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > >

> > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending

we have no history?

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

,

Yes, again, you're making perfect sense. I think it can be very freeing to look

at life in that way.

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

<<<Of course they live on in memory what do you mean when you say " Time

continuously erases my experiences from existence. " I just cannot get my head

around why it helps me to think that or what it means anyway.>>>

I mean that our experiences here--good and bad--are temporal, they don't last.

For that matter, nothing in the universe lasts.

Now, I'm not saying that we should believe this because it's going to help us.

That would be a phony approach. We should believe it because it's

incontrovertibly true. There's no escaping it.

A common reaction to the fact of impermanence is to perceive it as negative,

nihilistic, tragic. The point of my original post was to show that it doesn't

have to be perceived in that way. It can actually make life lighter, more

flexible, easier to work with. We don't get as caught up in things when we

realize that they fade away regardless.

<<<I am just curious about whether this is all standard ACT thinking?Or is it

just a way of thinking about life you find helpful and I for some reason can't

relate to. That's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to feel

this is going beyond what I feel is helpful and indeed does seem nihilistic to

me.>>>

It's not standard ACT thinking, so don't feel like you have to fall in line or

anything like that. If it doesn't help you get through your journey, kick it to

the curb ;-)

It's actually connected to Buddhism. A lot of people find Buddhism to be a

nihilistic belief system. So, you aren't alone.

I offer it because it represents an interesting perspective on things that some

might find helpful.

<<<I just don't feel the need to tell myself everything is impermanent to be

healthy as I see it. That seems to be doing exactly what I have been taught not

to do in CBT. Replace an unpleasant thought with a " comforting " one.>>>

I'm not saying that people should suppress or replace their thoughts, or believe

things because it feels good, or tell themselves things they don't actually know

to be true, as in " I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggonit, people like

me! " , or any other silliness that one might find in a primitive form of CBT.

That doesn't work.

What I am saying is this. We have an undeniable fact of life right in front of

us that we tend to ignore--the fact that all of our experiences, no matter how

good or bad, eventually fade away into a state of unimportance. What happens

when we bring our attention to that fact? At least for some us, I think the

answer is that we become more inclined to relax, to let go, to take whatever

comes, without getting too wrapped up in whether or not it conforms to our

wishes.

For the purposes of dealing with psychological struggles, that's a really good

aproach.

> >

> > <<<I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it

is not the way that humans are made.>>>

> >

> > What makes you think that living in accordance with " the way humans are

made " is a good idea? It may be a good idea, but it may also be a bad idea. To

find out, we have to look and see.

>

> What makes you think that I think that? Why does it have to be a good idea or

a bad idea? Why do we need to analyse at all? Isn't is just a fact we need to

accept, good or bad?

>

> >

> > Remember, evolution is what made us. It doesn't care one iota about

anyone's suffering. The only thing that it cares about is whether genes survive

into the next generation. If a given psychological tendency increases the

statistical likelihood of that happening, then evolution will select for it,

even if the tendency causes incredible pain and misery.

> >

> > Let me give an example. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to be

concerned about how we appear physically. The evolutionary logic for this

concern is obvious: how we appear physically affects the extent to which we

successfully attract mates, and therefore the extent to which we reproduce.

>

>

> Well as I understand it humans are affected by things like waist hip ratio

when choosing a mate without necessarily realising that they are. It doesn't

necessarily mean that everyone obsesses about their appearance. Much of these

evolutionary forces operate without our being conscious, at least until people

started studying evolution and evo psych.

> >

> > Now, the tendency to care deeply about how we appear physically works great

for those who are attractive, healthy, fit, and so on. They can " get inside "

the head space of beauty, get absorbed in the quest to look good, and be just

fine--at least until they get old and start losing it all.

> >

> > But what about those who are not attractive, healthy, fit, and so on? What

about the teenager who is overweight, ugly, different in some way? She has the

same tendency to care about how she looks as the rest. So she suffers.

Evolution doesn't care that she suffers. It designed human beings to be

concerned about physical appearances knowing full well that those who don't fit

the mold would suffer as a result.

>

>

> >

> > Now, if it were possible to somehow break down her notion that her physical

appearance is important in a special, privileged way, would that be a good

thing? I certainly would think so. Wouldn't you? If she doesn't get absorbed

in the futile quest to look good, or to fit some stupid, externally-imposed

mold, if she can let go of the artificial standards that genes and culture

inject into human thinking, then she won't suffer as much at the thought " I'm

not pretty like the other girls are! " She might come to the enlightened

realization, " Great. And why do I have to care? "

> >

> > This connects to what I was saying in the previous post. As human beings,

we are naturally inclined to get completely absorbed in how things are going.

We get into a deep struggle with life to find our little chunk of

happiness--that perfect relationship, that perfect family, that perfect

achievement, that perfect set of warm, happy, worthwhile, delicious life

experiences, whatever--and when it doesn't happen, we suffer all the more. Even

worse, we compare our unwanted situations to those of other people for whom

perfect things do seem to happen, and it hurts. We get frustrated, angry,

depressed, and sad that for some reason our lives--the only lives we will ever

have--are refusing to measure up to our hopes and expectations.

> >

> > If something could demonstrate to us that that these things that we seek so

dearly are fleeting anyway, that in the end all mental states and

experiences--happy, sad, good, bad, anxious, depressed, excited, joyous, warm,

delicious, awful--quickly dissolve away, as if they had never happened at all,

might that not be a good thing, something that loosens us up a bit, something

that gives us a bit more freedom and space and wisdom and perspective through

which to cope with life's difficulties and frustrations?

> >

> > For me, yes.

>

> It does not have that effect on me at all but we are all individuals.

>

> I am just curious about whether this is all standard ACT thinking? Or is it

just a way of thinking about life you find helpful and I for some reason can't

relate to. That's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to feel

this is going beyond what I feel is helpful and indeed does seem nihilistic to

me. I just don't feel the need to tell myself everything is impermanent to be

healthy as I see it. That seems to be doing exactly what I have been taught not

to do in CBT. Replace an unpleasant thought with a " comforting " one. In other

words rather than saying my past is something I will never get over to say that

nothing has any significance as it is ephemeral seems unnecessary.

> >

> > <<<It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!>>>

> >

> > If it doesn't help you, then don't tell yourself that. Tell yourself

whatever works for you, whatever you can believe.

> >

> > But I assure you that if you look closely at your experiences, you will see

that time continually erases them from existence. They only live on in the

world of memory, where they cannot satisfy anything.

>

> I don't understand the point you are making here. Of course they live on in

memory what do you mean when you say " Time continuously erases my experiences

from existence " . I just cannot get my head around why it helps me to think that

or what it means anyway. I don't think I have ever imagined experiences can live

on except in my head. Some of them still affect me today in bad or good ways

because I have the capacity to remember and because some of them have actually

changed me. Reading your e-mails will have changed me. Reading books changes me.

> >

> > <<<I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell

me I was blissfully happy ten years ago.>>>

> >

> > But why would it be pointless?

>

> It would be pointless because I don't believe in magic.

>

> >If mental states--what makes life sweet and delicious--really do have

enduring value, then it would be wonderful news to hear that life was a fairy

tale for you 10 years ago.

>

> I don't believe mental states never change and I don't think that is something

I have ever believed. They change all the time but they can be affected by our

past experiences, memories etc. and that's just a fact. Telling me that every

moment is erased from existence won't change that. Isn't there a middle way

though? I neither have to say mental states are immutable or enduring nor that

" The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened. " >

>

> > It's not wonderful news because mental states don't have enduring value.

Recognizing that, it becomes easier for us to work with and accept them,

particularly when they are unpleasant. They pass, and then it doesn't matter

anyway.

>

> That makes more sense to me :-)

>

> >

> > <<<I wouldn't say it is pointless trying to learn from my past though.>>>

> >

> > And I didn't say that either. Of course we should learn from our pasts.

>

> Sorry I'm still a bit confused. Maybe the philosophy is beyond me.

>

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > --

> And best wishes from me:-)

>

> Louise

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

I believe the problem with this string of posting is that there is waffling between the behavior of someone who is aware, enlightened,...lives in the now; and a person who has a problem and need to use ACT or anything similar to overcome their problem.B/RegardsibrahimTo: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:38:35 PMSubject: Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

I don't think the Alzheimer's comment was meant all that seriously... .I actually smiled when I read it

(I don't think anyone would play down the seriousness of the disease)

> > > >

> > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > > >

> > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > >

> > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day?

> > > >

> > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > >

> > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > >

> > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world."

> > > >

> > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration?

> > > >

> > > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!"

> > > >

> > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > >

> > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > >

> > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > >

> > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > >

> > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > >

> > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > >

> > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes.

> > > >

> > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!"

> > > >

> > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation.

> > > >

> > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that.

> > > >

> > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > > --

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.

> > >

> > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > >

> > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > >

> > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

I think painful memories from the past are useful and shoudn't be blocked out.

Healing comes from coming with terms with our pain. For me, it is when I start

ruminatng that the probems start. 'Why aren't I better', Why didn't she want

me', 'I'm no good, what's wrong with me?','I'm going to get tougher and

change','I'm always alone, no one likes me', etc.

A form of therapy in the UK called Human Givens has identified what causes

depression: it is too much REM sleep caused by too much cortisol (worry).

There method for a cure is simple:

Don't worry,

Have fun,

Get out and about and meet your friends again,

Don't go into pychotherapy (rumination)

Eat healthfully.

Of course there is more to Human Givens than this, but this is how they start

therapy to get you into better shape. Human Givens don't believe genes play a

significant role in depression and anxiety.

http://www.hgi.org.uk/

Kavy

> > >

> > > <<<I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as

it is not the way that humans are made.>>>

> > >

> > > What makes you think that living in accordance with " the way humans are

made " is a good idea? It may be a good idea, but it may also be a bad idea. To

find out, we have to look and see.

> >

> > What makes you think that I think that? Why does it have to be a good idea

or a bad idea? Why do we need to analyse at all? Isn't is just a fact we need to

accept, good or bad?

> >

> > >

> > > Remember, evolution is what made us. It doesn't care one iota about

anyone's suffering. The only thing that it cares about is whether genes survive

into the next generation. If a given psychological tendency increases the

statistical likelihood of that happening, then evolution will select for it,

even if the tendency causes incredible pain and misery.

> > >

> > > Let me give an example. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to be

concerned about how we appear physically. The evolutionary logic for this

concern is obvious: how we appear physically affects the extent to which we

successfully attract mates, and therefore the extent to which we reproduce.

> >

> >

> > Well as I understand it humans are affected by things like waist hip ratio

when choosing a mate without necessarily realising that they are. It doesn't

necessarily mean that everyone obsesses about their appearance. Much of these

evolutionary forces operate without our being conscious, at least until people

started studying evolution and evo psych.

> > >

> > > Now, the tendency to care deeply about how we appear physically works

great for those who are attractive, healthy, fit, and so on. They can " get

inside " the head space of beauty, get absorbed in the quest to look good, and be

just fine--at least until they get old and start losing it all.

> > >

> > > But what about those who are not attractive, healthy, fit, and so on?

What about the teenager who is overweight, ugly, different in some way? She has

the same tendency to care about how she looks as the rest. So she suffers.

Evolution doesn't care that she suffers. It designed human beings to be

concerned about physical appearances knowing full well that those who don't fit

the mold would suffer as a result.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Now, if it were possible to somehow break down her notion that her

physical appearance is important in a special, privileged way, would that be a

good thing? I certainly would think so. Wouldn't you? If she doesn't get

absorbed in the futile quest to look good, or to fit some stupid,

externally-imposed mold, if she can let go of the artificial standards that

genes and culture inject into human thinking, then she won't suffer as much at

the thought " I'm not pretty like the other girls are! " She might come to the

enlightened realization, " Great. And why do I have to care? "

> > >

> > > This connects to what I was saying in the previous post. As human beings,

we are naturally inclined to get completely absorbed in how things are going.

We get into a deep struggle with life to find our little chunk of

happiness--that perfect relationship, that perfect family, that perfect

achievement, that perfect set of warm, happy, worthwhile, delicious life

experiences, whatever--and when it doesn't happen, we suffer all the more. Even

worse, we compare our unwanted situations to those of other people for whom

perfect things do seem to happen, and it hurts. We get frustrated, angry,

depressed, and sad that for some reason our lives--the only lives we will ever

have--are refusing to measure up to our hopes and expectations.

> > >

> > > If something could demonstrate to us that that these things that we seek

so dearly are fleeting anyway, that in the end all mental states and

experiences--happy, sad, good, bad, anxious, depressed, excited, joyous, warm,

delicious, awful--quickly dissolve away, as if they had never happened at all,

might that not be a good thing, something that loosens us up a bit, something

that gives us a bit more freedom and space and wisdom and perspective through

which to cope with life's difficulties and frustrations?

> > >

> > > For me, yes.

> >

> > It does not have that effect on me at all but we are all individuals.

> >

> > I am just curious about whether this is all standard ACT thinking? Or is it

just a way of thinking about life you find helpful and I for some reason can't

relate to. That's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to feel

this is going beyond what I feel is helpful and indeed does seem nihilistic to

me. I just don't feel the need to tell myself everything is impermanent to be

healthy as I see it. That seems to be doing exactly what I have been taught not

to do in CBT. Replace an unpleasant thought with a " comforting " one. In other

words rather than saying my past is something I will never get over to say that

nothing has any significance as it is ephemeral seems unnecessary.

> > >

> > > <<<It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!>>>

> > >

> > > If it doesn't help you, then don't tell yourself that. Tell yourself

whatever works for you, whatever you can believe.

> > >

> > > But I assure you that if you look closely at your experiences, you will

see that time continually erases them from existence. They only live on in the

world of memory, where they cannot satisfy anything.

> >

> > I don't understand the point you are making here. Of course they live on in

memory what do you mean when you say " Time continuously erases my experiences

from existence " . I just cannot get my head around why it helps me to think that

or what it means anyway. I don't think I have ever imagined experiences can live

on except in my head. Some of them still affect me today in bad or good ways

because I have the capacity to remember and because some of them have actually

changed me. Reading your e-mails will have changed me. Reading books changes me.

> > >

> > > <<<I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to

tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago.>>>

> > >

> > > But why would it be pointless?

> >

> > It would be pointless because I don't believe in magic.

> >

> > >If mental states--what makes life sweet and delicious--really do have

enduring value, then it would be wonderful news to hear that life was a fairy

tale for you 10 years ago.

> >

> > I don't believe mental states never change and I don't think that is

something I have ever believed. They change all the time but they can be

affected by our past experiences, memories etc. and that's just a fact. Telling

me that every moment is erased from existence won't change that. Isn't there a

middle way though? I neither have to say mental states are immutable or enduring

nor that " The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed

experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is

not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened. " >

> >

> > > It's not wonderful news because mental states don't have enduring value.

Recognizing that, it becomes easier for us to work with and accept them,

particularly when they are unpleasant. They pass, and then it doesn't matter

anyway.

> >

> > That makes more sense to me :-)

> >

> > >

> > > <<<I wouldn't say it is pointless trying to learn from my past though.>>>

> > >

> > > And I didn't say that either. Of course we should learn from our pasts.

> >

> > Sorry I'm still a bit confused. Maybe the philosophy is beyond me.

> >

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> > And best wishes from me:-)

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi, Louise,

No, I think Alzheimer's is a far from desirable state. I should have replied to

's message, though, rather than yours.

As I read 's message, what he was describing struck me as actually being

rather close to what I understand about how Alzheimer's affects people.My

understanding may be wrong, of course.

Thanks, Les

> > > >

> > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it

bad?

> > > >

> > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > >

> > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > > >

> > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > >

> > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > >

> > > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > > >

> > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a

cause for celebration?

> > > >

> > > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10

years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > > >

> > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > >

> > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > >

> > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > >

> > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > >

> > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > >

> > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > >

> > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > > >

> > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is

a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > > >

> > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > > >

> > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > > >

> > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > > --

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it

is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they

are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> > >

> > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > >

> > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell

me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago

that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't

care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i

wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > >

> > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending

we have no history?

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

True; Alzheimer's patients have had their memories erased - more precisely, they

do not seem able to remember the past, even the recent past.

How this relates to what you were writing: Whether the memories are destroyed or

simply not accessible, Alzheimer's sufferers can't access that knowledge

anymore. Their lives are, as best as we can tell, a disjointed series of

moments, like beads on a string that has come undone. It seems that our ability

to live functionally and carry out our intentions in the present depends upon

our being able to remember the past, doesn't it? As well, it depends upon our

being able to be aware of the future, even though we do not know what it

consists of. As humans, we engage in the present in a context of both past and

future.

As to your contention that people, if told they were happy ten years ago, would

not care about it now: I beg to differ. Therapy is full of stories of people

who, upon reframing their perspective of past events, find that it affects how

they experience their lives in the present. Similarly, many people report that

remembering, and being grateful, for past joys is a comfort in difficult times,

and gives them strength. I've worked with elderly people, and what I've noticed

is that the ones who live long are often the grateful ones - and yet it's not

that they had easy lives.

I appreciate that you acknowledge that this is simply your take on life. I also

acknowledge that you state that you think we should engage with the present and

do what is " right and good " . However, I question your use of the term that one

day, what is now present will " not matter " . In order for something to " not

matter " it has to not have an impact. (I'd also point out that if you want to

stay present focused, you could also argue that the fact that 100 years hence

something would supposedly " not matter " doesn't matter, so to speak, right now:

in the present one's suffering certainly does impact the person undergoing it,

may impact others, and that impact may " matter " to anyone who has compassion for

those involved.)

I do not think that " impermanence " implies that what is happening now means that

one day it " won't matter " , or " will no longer have an impact. " Maybe I prefer

the Native American idea that one should act for seven generations to come: how

one acts now will affect the lives of those to come for many years. Similarly,

how people acted in the past still affects lives today, regardless of whether we

remember anything about it or not! The past is no more, true. But the

consequences of past actions are most certainly present in the here and now. And

our present actions will certainly impact the future.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding how you intend your use of the term, but that is

how it reads to me.

all the best, Les

> > > >

> > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > >

> > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it

bad?

> > > >

> > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > >

> > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > > >

> > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > >

> > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > >

> > > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > > >

> > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a

cause for celebration?

> > > >

> > > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10

years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > > >

> > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > >

> > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore.

The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came

and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern:

for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > >

> > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > >

> > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > >

> > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then,

it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > >

> > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > >

> > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can

let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we

know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter-anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > > >

> > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is

a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states

are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible,

how tragic! "

> > > >

> > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > > >

> > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > > >

> > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > >

> > > > Best wishes,

> > > > --

> > >

> > > Hi ,

> > >

> > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it

is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they

are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> > >

> > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > >

> > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell

me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago

that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't

care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i

wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > >

> > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending

we have no history?

> > >

> > > Louise

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

With all due respect, Ibrahim, I don't think there is a problem with this string of posting, nor do I think anyone can ascertain from it who has a problem and is not enlightened versus who is not. Sure, you can speculate and make judgments, but is that of any value?

Just my two cents. And maybe in sharing this opinion, I am being judgmental as well! Sheesh : )

Helena

Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

I don't think the Alzheimer's comment was meant all that seriously... .I actually smiled when I read it(I don't think anyone would play down the seriousness of the disease)> > > >> > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago. > > > > > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad? > > > > > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed? > > > > > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your mental day-to-day? > > > > > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy. > > > > > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say, > > > > > > > > "You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the world." > > > > > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause for celebration? > > > > > > > > "How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news!" > > > > > > > > Is that how you would respond? > > > > > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened. > > > > > > > > Now, here comes the important point. > > > > > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing. > > > > > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything. > > > > > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice. > > > > > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state of didn't-matter- anyway. > > > > > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want to follow my wishes. > > > > > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says "Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how tragic!" > > > > > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's just an interpretation. > > > > > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do, and we leave the situation at that. > > > > > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence. When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time. > > > > > > > > Best wishes,> > > > --> > > > > > Hi ,> > > > > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a species if we had no memory of pain.> > > > > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially! > > > > > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.> > > > > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we have no history?> > > > > > Louise> > >> >>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Can I chip in here - I understand what you are saying , but for me I had that sense of impermanence from a young adult, indeed I think it is what led to my anxiety disorder in part. I can remember looking around at everyone and thinking 'ahhhh we're all gonna die!' I have since read in the Morita therapy for anxiety disorders that this indeed can be the root of a lot of anxiety/depression.

This is going to sound weird, (teehee it is a bit weird) but lately I have found another defusion technique - when I feel anxiety arising in my mind and body, I tell myself 'I am a ghost' - that is, things can pass through me, all the fear, the holding on, I visualise myself as transparent so that all these feelings can pass through me. I geuss this is just another way of 'floating' as Weekes says. But I find this works better for me.

My point is - what if this nihilistic viewpoint actually increases your anxiety? That total void can be liberating but also terrifying.

Simone

To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Friday, 20 March, 2009 3:36:47Subject: Re: Impermanence and Letting Go

<<<Of course they live on in memory what do you mean when you say "Time continuously erases my experiences from existence." I just cannot get my head around why it helps me to think that or what it means anyway.>>>I mean that our experiences here--good and bad--are temporal, they don't last. For that matter, nothing in the universe lasts. Now, I'm not saying that we should believe this because it's going to help us. That would be a phony approach. We should believe it because it's incontrovertibly true. There's no escaping it. A common reaction to the fact of impermanence is to perceive it as negative, nihilistic, tragic. The point of my original post was to show that it doesn't have to be perceived in that way. It can actually make life lighter, more flexible, easier to work with. We don't get as caught up in things when we realize that they fade away regardless. <<<I am just curious about

whether this is all standard ACT thinking?Or is it just a way of thinking about life you find helpful and I for some reason can't relate to. That's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to feel this is going beyond what I feel is helpful and indeed does seem nihilistic to me.>>>It's not standard ACT thinking, so don't feel like you have to fall in line or anything like that. If it doesn't help you get through your journey, kick it to the curb ;-)It's actually connected to Buddhism. A lot of people find Buddhism to be a nihilistic belief system. So, you aren't alone. I offer it because it represents an interesting perspective on things that some might find helpful. <<<I just don't feel the need to tell myself everything is impermanent to be healthy as I see it. That seems to be doing exactly what I have been taught not to do in CBT. Replace an unpleasant thought with a "comforting"

one.>>>I'm not saying that people should suppress or replace their thoughts, or believe things because it feels good, or tell themselves things they don't actually know to be true, as in "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggonit, people like me!", or any other silliness that one might find in a primitive form of CBT. That doesn't work. What I am saying is this. We have an undeniable fact of life right in front of us that we tend to ignore--the fact that all of our experiences, no matter how good or bad, eventually fade away into a state of unimportance. What happens when we bring our attention to that fact? At least for some us, I think the answer is that we become more inclined to relax, to let go, to take whatever comes, without getting too wrapped up in whether or not it conforms to our wishes. For the purposes of dealing with psychological struggles, that's a really good aproach. > >> > <<<I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is not the way that humans are made.>>>> > > > What makes you think that living in accordance with "the way humans are made" is a good idea? It may be a good idea, but it may also be a bad idea. To find out, we have to look and see. > > What makes you think that I think that? Why does it have to be a good idea or a bad idea? Why do we need to analyse at all?

Isn't is just a fact we need to accept, good or bad? > > > > > Remember, evolution is what made us. It doesn't care one iota about anyone's suffering. The only thing that it cares about is whether genes survive into the next generation. If a given psychological tendency increases the statistical likelihood of that happening, then evolution will select for it, even if the tendency causes incredible pain and misery. > > > > Let me give an example. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to be concerned about how we appear physically. The evolutionary logic for this concern is obvious: how we appear physically affects the extent to which we successfully attract mates, and therefore the extent to which we reproduce. > > > Well as I understand it humans are affected by things like waist hip ratio when choosing a mate without necessarily realising that they are. It doesn't necessarily mean

that everyone obsesses about their appearance. Much of these evolutionary forces operate without our being conscious, at least until people started studying evolution and evo psych.> > > > Now, the tendency to care deeply about how we appear physically works great for those who are attractive, healthy, fit, and so on. They can "get inside" the head space of beauty, get absorbed in the quest to look good, and be just fine--at least until they get old and start losing it all. > > > > But what about those who are not attractive, healthy, fit, and so on? What about the teenager who is overweight, ugly, different in some way? She has the same tendency to care about how she looks as the rest. So she suffers. Evolution doesn't care that she suffers. It designed human beings to be concerned about physical appearances knowing full well that those who don't fit the mold would suffer as a result. > > >

> > > Now, if it were possible to somehow break down her notion that her physical appearance is important in a special, privileged way, would that be a good thing? I certainly would think so. Wouldn't you? If she doesn't get absorbed in the futile quest to look good, or to fit some stupid, externally-imposed mold, if she can let go of the artificial standards that genes and culture inject into human thinking, then she won't suffer as much at the thought "I'm not pretty like the other girls are!" She might come to the enlightened realization, "Great. And why do I have to care?" > > > > This connects to what I was saying in the previous post. As human beings, we are naturally inclined to get completely absorbed in how things are going. We get into a deep struggle with life to find our little chunk of happiness--that perfect relationship, that perfect family, that perfect achievement, that perfect set of warm, happy,

worthwhile, delicious life experiences, whatever--and when it doesn't happen, we suffer all the more. Even worse, we compare our unwanted situations to those of other people for whom perfect things do seem to happen, and it hurts. We get frustrated, angry, depressed, and sad that for some reason our lives--the only lives we will ever have--are refusing to measure up to our hopes and expectations. > > > > If something could demonstrate to us that that these things that we seek so dearly are fleeting anyway, that in the end all mental states and experiences- -happy, sad, good, bad, anxious, depressed, excited, joyous, warm, delicious, awful--quickly dissolve away, as if they had never happened at all, might that not be a good thing, something that loosens us up a bit, something that gives us a bit more freedom and space and wisdom and perspective through which to cope with life's difficulties and frustrations? > > >

> For me, yes.> > It does not have that effect on me at all but we are all individuals. > > I am just curious about whether this is all standard ACT thinking? Or is it just a way of thinking about life you find helpful and I for some reason can't relate to. That's OK. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to feel this is going beyond what I feel is helpful and indeed does seem nihilistic to me. I just don't feel the need to tell myself everything is impermanent to be healthy as I see it. That seems to be doing exactly what I have been taught not to do in CBT. Replace an unpleasant thought with a "comforting" one. In other words rather than saying my past is something I will never get over to say that nothing has any significance as it is ephemeral seems unnecessary. > > > > <<<It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence consists of a series of

disconnected moments that are erased serially!>>>> > > > If it doesn't help you, then don't tell yourself that. Tell yourself whatever works for you, whatever you can believe. > > > > But I assure you that if you look closely at your experiences, you will see that time continually erases them from existence. They only live on in the world of memory, where they cannot satisfy anything. > > I don't understand the point you are making here. Of course they live on in memory what do you mean when you say "Time continuously erases my experiences from existence". I just cannot get my head around why it helps me to think that or what it means anyway. I don't think I have ever imagined experiences can live on except in my head. Some of them still affect me today in bad or good ways because I have the capacity to remember and because some of them have actually changed me. Reading your e-mails will

have changed me. Reading books changes me. > > > > <<<I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me I was blissfully happy ten years ago.>>>> > > > But why would it be pointless?> > It would be pointless because I don't believe in magic.> > >If mental states--what makes life sweet and delicious--really do have enduring value, then it would be wonderful news to hear that life was a fairy tale for you 10 years ago. > > I don't believe mental states never change and I don't think that is something I have ever believed. They change all the time but they can be affected by our past experiences, memories etc. and that's just a fact. Telling me that every moment is erased from existence won't change that. Isn't there a middle way though? I neither have to say mental states are immutable or enduring nor that "The moment that

existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened." > > > > It's not wonderful news because mental states don't have enduring value. Recognizing that, it becomes easier for us to work with and accept them, particularly when they are unpleasant. They pass, and then it doesn't matter anyway. > > That makes more sense to me :-) > > > > > <<<I wouldn't say it is pointless trying to learn from my past though.>>>> > > > And I didn't say that either. Of course we should learn from our pasts. > > Sorry I'm still a bit confused. Maybe the philosophy is beyond me.> > > > > Best wishes,> > --> And best wishes from me:-)> >

Louise>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Hi Ginny and !

> > >

> > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > >

> > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it bad?

> > >

> > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > >

> > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied your

mental day-to-day?

> > >

> > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > >

> > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > >

> > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you were

feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were experiencing and

replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By the stroke of a

magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you were on top of the

world. "

> > >

> > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a cause

for celebration?

> > >

> > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10 years

ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > >

> > > Is that how you would respond?

> > >

> > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter anymore. The

moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed experientially, came and

went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is not even a concern: for all

we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > >

> > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > >

> > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment of

our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy, this

suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > >

> > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme of

things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even then, it

won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > >

> > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it, or

cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > >

> > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to be

so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We can let

go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because we know

that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter- anyway.

> > >

> > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing is

really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > >

> > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it is a

nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own states are

constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how terrible, how

tragic! "

> > >

> > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged, it's

just an interpretation.

> > >

> > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that we

should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that we

should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful attachments

of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are intrinsically

fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs to be done,

doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our values, and

so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations, evaluations,

comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that tend to bring us

so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right and good to do,

and we leave the situation at that.

> > >

> > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They just

erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything that

comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter anyway.

So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > --

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it is

not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they are

also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> >

> > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> >

> > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell me

I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago that

would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't care. I

would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i wouldn't

say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> >

> > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending we

have no history?

> >

> > Louise

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

> > > > >

> > > > > Think back to some time in the past, say 10 years ago.

> > > > >

> > > > > What was the quality of your life at the time? Was it good? Was it

bad?

> > > > >

> > > > > How were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you depressed? Were you

excited? Were you anxious? Were you energized? Were you overwhelmed?

> > > > >

> > > > > What was going on in your mental world? What sorts of things occupied

your mental day-to-day?

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's say that you were in pain, suffering over some unwanted state of

affairs. Maybe a failed romance, or a career disappointment, or a psychological

struggle, or some other problem. You were unhappy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Would it help if God, or the white queen, or whoever, were to say,

> > > > >

> > > > > " You know what, I'm going to change that. I'm going to change how you

were feeling at that time. I'm going to erase the pain that you were

experiencing and replace it with the highest form of happiness imaginable. By

the stroke of a magic wand, it is now officially true that ten years ago, you

were on top of the world. "

> > > > >

> > > > > How would you respond? Would this gift be good news, would it be a

cause for celebration?

> > > > >

> > > > > " How wonderful that it is now true that I was on top of the world 10

years ago. Let's celebrate this joyous news! "

> > > > >

> > > > > Is that how you would respond?

> > > > >

> > > > > No. You don't care. How you were feeling then doesn't matter

anymore. The moment that existed 10 years ago, whatever it entailed

experientially, came and went. Now, it's gone, empty, nothing. How it felt is

not even a concern: for all we care, it might as well have never happened.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, here comes the important point.

> > > > >

> > > > > If we look closely, we will notice that this right here--this moment

of our lives right now, this happiness, this sadness, this boredom, this joy,

this suffering, this victory, this loss, whatever it is that occupies us so

heavily--it will soon be like that: gone, empty, nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether it ever happened will make no difference in the grand scheme

of things. It will only exist in those who can still remember it, and even

then, it won't be able to *satisfy* anyone or anything.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why, then, should we dwell on it, or fixate on it, or lament over it,

or cling to it, or fight with it, or struggle with it? Regardless of what we do

with it, it goes to the same place that every prior moment of our lives, whether

good or bad, has gone, and it goes there quickly, before we can even notice.

> > > > >

> > > > > When we perceive the events of our lives in this light, they cease to

be so important, so heavy, so weighty. They lose their tight grip on us. We

can let go of our expectations and our demands for how they will unfold, because

we know that no matter how they do unfold, it is only a very small amount of

time--indeed, an instant--until they unfold into nonexistence, a permanent state

of didn't-matter- anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > Contemplating this fact inclines me to relax, to realize that nothing

is really really that big of a deal. It becomes easier for me to let go of my

frustration and sorrow at the fact that this life of mine doesn't seem to want

to follow my wishes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, I expect that some will read what I am saying and think that it

is a nihilistic, depressed, bleak take on life. The mind sees that its own

states are constantly fleeting, and it naturally says " Oh no, how sad, how

terrible, how tragic! "

> > > > >

> > > > > But that's just another reaction of the mind. It's not privileged,

it's just an interpretation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does the fact that all things in life eventually fade away mean that

we should quit engaging with life? No, I don't think so. I think it means that

we should engage with life *without* getting caught up in the unhelpful

attachments of our minds. Seeing that the objects of those attachments are

intrinsically fleeting, we should shift our focus towards just doing what needs

to be done, doing our business, fulfilling our responsibilities, living out our

values, and so on, without holding onto anticipations, demands, expectations,

evaluations, comparisons, and so on--those 'extra' things the mind adds that

tend to bring us so much suffering. We do what needs to be done, what is right

and good to do, and we leave the situation at that.

> > > > >

> > > > > To summarize, then, here is what I take from the idea of impermanence.

When you find yourself in a struggle with this moment of life, suffering over

the fact that it is not what you want it to be, remember that the wheels of

time, in their constant movement, just erased it, for all of eternity. They

just erased it. It's gone. They will continue to erase anything and everything

that comes up after. Time brings everything to a point where it didn't matter

anyway. So relax, let go, and just be. The struggle is a waste of time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best wishes,

> > > > > --

> > > >

> > > > Hi ,

> > > >

> > > > I don't get how believing that every moment is erased helps anyone as it

is not the way humans are made. We have memories. Yes, they cause pain but they

are also part of what makes us human and helps us survive. We'd not survive as a

species if we had no memory of pain.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't help me survive personally to tell myself that my existence

consists of a series of disconnected moments that are erased serially!

> > > >

> > > > I agree that it would be pointless to wish for a happiness fairy to tell

me I was blissfully happy ten years ago. But if I had been happy ten years ago

that would have affected the course of my life so no I wouldn't say I don't

care. I would say that it is pointless trying to change what has happened. i

wouldn't say it is pointless rying to learn from my past though.

> > > >

> > > > There is surely a difference between living in the moment and pretending

we have no history?

> > > >

> > > > Louise

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...