Re: Depression is a Learned Habit

January 24, 2009

Thanks Kavy for sharing this.....true,you can pursue these values you listed, and attain them..but stay unhappy.....To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:53:46 AMSubject: Depression is a Learned Habit

Depression is a Learned Habit. Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful. First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be. http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm

Introduction Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you. If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted. Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you. But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well. Kavy

January 24, 2009

I would suggest that the "values" listed are not really values but acquired things. You can live in a nice house, have a great job, be a good singer, have multiple degrees, etc., without having values. You may value these things, but they are not values in and of themselves. They are more like goals, IMO.

Helena

Depression is a Learned Habit

Depression is a Learned Habit.

Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful.

First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.

http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm

Introduction

Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long

DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.

Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

Kavy

January 24, 2009

I relate to all of this. I agree that values can be hard to find. I think most of what I call values are either what I think society wants of me or things that I think will make people like me.As for the quote, this is true for me, although I'm far less accomplished than the example.BruceI would suggest that the "values" listed are not really values but acquired things. You can live in a nice house, have a great job, be a good singer, have multiple degrees, etc., without having values. You may value these things, but they are not values in and of themselves. They are more like goals, IMO. Helena Depression is a Learned Habit Depression is a Learned Habit. Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful. First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be. http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm Introduction Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you. If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted. Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you. But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well. Kavy

January 24, 2009

I disagree. Values are not hard to find. You will find them when you stop thinking of values as what society wants or things that will make people like you. What do you really care about if you are the only person left living on the planet?

Helena

Depression is a Learned Habit

Depression is a Learned Habit.

Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful.

First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.

http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm

Introduction

Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long

DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.

Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

Kavy

January 24, 2009

The sunshine, the wind, the trees, the rain, the moon, the fog, early

mornings, and at other times late at night. And romance.

I'm learning singing in the rain on piano at the moment:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCpOKtN8ME

Kavy

>

> I would suggest that the " values " listed are not really values

but acquired things. You can live in a nice house, have a great job,

be a good singer, have multiple degrees, etc., without having

values. You may value these things, but they are not values in and

of themselves. They are more like goals, IMO.

>

> Helena

>

> Depression is a Learned Habit

>

> Depression is a

Learned Habit.

>

> Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful

Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal,

and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice

house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am

now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many

girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college

since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from

inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is

proving to be the most useful.

>

> First, here's link showing how effective these meditation

techniques can be.

>

> http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020

1928.htm

>

Introduction

>

> Tired of feeling So

Bad for So Long

>

> DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that

robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a

noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

>

> If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these

metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by

depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous

personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can

leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive

joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness

never tasted.

>

> Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet,

ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For

the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it

tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If

this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting

happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that

you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to

find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so

bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even

feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced

that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

>

> But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

--------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

> Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once

we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think,

no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted

thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

>

> Kavy

>

January 24, 2009

Fantastic accomplishments! You are very talented, for sure. I, too, play piano. So I can identify with that accomplishment. You are probably way more talented than I can ever hope to be. But I enjoy what I have, because it just "grows" me.

I wish I could be romantically involved with you. I think it would be awesome. If not lasting.

Helena

Depression is a Learned Habit> > > > > Depression is a Learned Habit.> > > > > > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful. > > > > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.> > > > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm> > > > > > > > > > Introduction> > > > Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long> > > > > > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.> > > > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.> > > > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.> > > > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.> > > > Kavy>

January 24, 2009

My girlfriend say's we problably have a lot in common.

Kavy

> >

> > I would suggest that the " values " listed are not really values

> but acquired things. You can live in a nice house, have a great

job,

> be a good singer, have multiple degrees, etc., without having

> values. You may value these things, but they are not values in

and

> of themselves. They are more like goals, IMO.

> >

> > Helena

> >

> > Depression is a Learned Habit

> >

> > Depression is a

> Learned Habit.

> >

> > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful

> Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel

Segal,

> and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have

nice

> house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I

am

> now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many

> girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college

> since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief

from

> inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of

ACT is

> proving to be the most useful.

> >

> > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation

> techniques can be.

> >

> > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020

> 1928.htm

> >

> Introduction

> >

> > Tired of feeling So

> Bad for So Long

> >

> > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that

> robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a

> noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to

you.

> >

> > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these

> metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by

> depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous

> personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can

> leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive

> joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for

happiness

> never tasted.

> >

> > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet,

> ironically, nothing we do seems to help.at least not for long.

For

> the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become

depressed, it

> tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months.

If

> this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting

> happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough,

that

> you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try

to

> find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel

so

> bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might

even

> feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become

convinced

> that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

> >

> > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once

> we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just

think,

> no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted

> thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

> >

> > Kavy

> >

>

January 24, 2009

Hmmmmmmm... now what does THAT mean?

Depression is a Learned Habit> > > > > > > > > > Depression is a > Learned Habit.> > > > > > > > > > > > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful > Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, > and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice > house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am > now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many > girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college > since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from > inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is > proving to be the most useful. > > > > > > > > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation > techniques can be.> > > > > > > > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 > 1928.htm> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Introduction> > > > > > > > Tired of feeling So > Bad for So Long> > > > > > > > > > > > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that > robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a > noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.> > > > > > > > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these > metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by > depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous > personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can > leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive > joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness > never tasted.> > > > > > > > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, > ironically, nothing we do seems to help.at least not for long. For > the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it > tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If > this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting > happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that > you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to > find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so > bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even > feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced > that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.> > > > > > > > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once > we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, > no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted > thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.> > > > > > > > Kavy> >>

January 24, 2009

The 'mindfulness' part of ACT has been more helpful to me as well,

but that is not to say that the 'values' part hasn't been helpful.

It has, very much so. The problem with 'values' is in how we

naturally interpret the concept, ie how we pursue the concept, ie

what the mind does with the concept.

My natural interpretation of the concept of a value is as a kind of

mind-indulgent, outcome-oriented, expectation-attached, highly-fused,

highly-evaluative, highly-infatuated pursuit of something.

Let me use a dangerous example--relationships.

I value a relationship with her. But I have nothing to offer her. I

feel inferior, inadequate, hopeless, ashamed to be who I am. My

stomach is in a knot right now. I just want to stay here and cry.

But I'm not going to let that rob me of something that I value--a

relationship with her. I'm going to ask her on a date.

So I ask her on a date. Surprised and obviously uninterested in me,

she tells me 'no' in the nicest, gentlest way that she can.

Ouch. So how do I feel now? Obviously, I feel worse, I feel more

inadequate, more ashamed of who I am, more inferior in comparison

with those non-depressed, non-anxious, interesting, attractive people

who she would be interested in. The process triggers all sorts of

sensitivities, memories of past pain, and so on.

The lesson is this. Don't pursue as an ACT 'value' something like

that. Bad. You're playing with the mind's fire in that case. You

will get burned.

A better example of a value to pursue in the context of ACT is

something that doesn't so easily get caught up inside of the mind's

expectations and attachments and evaluations and all-or-nothing

grandiosity. Something that isn't so heavily rooted in all that

stuff. Something that is done not to quench the mind's hot-headed

infatuations, but because it's something valuable to do.

So let me give a better example.

" I value a relationship with her. But I have nothing to offer her.

I feel inferior, inadequate, hopeless, ashamed to be who I am. My

stomach is in a knot right now. I just want to stay here and cry.

She's just so wonderful, and I'm just so not. I wish I could be to

her what she is to me. "

" OK, OK, OK, here we go again, been there done that. In the

meantime, this house is a mess. So I'm going to clean it. Might as

well get something done. "

And as the feelings come up, and the judgments, and the expectations,

you just gently put those down and go back to cleaning. And then

they come up again, and so on, and you put them down again, and so

on. And you just clean your house.

The point is that the value is not in the mind, it's in the doing.

It's not mind-centered, or attached to getting some feeling, or some

satisfaction, or some possession. You're just doing what is there to

be done, what is worthwhile to do. It could be reading to your kids,

it could be doing your taxes, and so on. The less grandiose, the

better.

Now, some kinds of values are going to be prone to generating weighty

evaluations, and sensitivities, and judgments, and attachments, and

so on. And that's OK. The key is that you have to know that all

that stuff is not the values part. So just put that down. And go

back to the values part, the doing part.

If your value is reading to your kids, for example, mind-stuff is

probably going to come up. " Are you a good enough for them? " " Are

you doing parenthood right? " " Are you setting them up for

success? " " Do they look up to you? " " Are they proud of

you? " " Would they be proud of you if they really knew you? " " Will

things be OK financially for you to provide them with a good

life " " Is doing this whole values thing making you feel less

depressed and ashamed? " " Is it working? "

OK, OK. Just put that stream down. And go back to reading the book

to your kids. That's where the value is, not in the thinking, or in

how it feels, or in any of the other evaluative, anticipatory mind-

stuff.

A value is a kind of silent doing. It is mind-less. It is hands and

feet. Motion. Action. You're out of the mind. (And then something

pulls you back into it, but that's OK, you just put it down and get

out of your mind again)

It's very difficult to describe in the right terms, or in terms that

will trigger the right notions in your mind, rather than the wrong

notions. So take all of it with a grain of salt, and just see what

works for you. Your experience, as always, has to be the final say.

And note that I'm not speaking for ACT in any of this, just what

works for me. Maybe the ACT professionals can weigh in.

>

> Depression is a Learned

> Habit.

>

> Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way

through

> Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon

> Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I

am

> skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning

> keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle

> everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school,

and

> have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me

the

> mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most

useful.

>

> First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques

> can be.

>

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081130201928.htm

> <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081130201928.htm>

>

Introduction

>

> Tired of feeling So Bad

for So

> Long

>

> DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs

> you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday

> demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

>

> If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these

metaphors

> are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows

> that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal

> dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave

feeling

> hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and

> disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.

>

> Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically,

> nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact

> of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to

> return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this

has

> happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you

> may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are

failure.

> Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper

meaning,

> to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't

> come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty

and

> desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is

something

> fundamentally wrong with you.

>

> But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----\

> ----------------------------------------

>

> Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have

> learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no

genes, or

> anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can

> happen to anyone. We can all be well.

>

> Kavy

>

January 24, 2009

Well it happened. I had to break it off and I am really heart broken.

Really heart broken.

Not ready to talk about it right now. Though. Just thought I would

share.

Love,

Robyn

January 24, 2009

Hi, my name is Toni and I have been "lurking" on this site for several months. I love the concept of ACT and really believe it is the truth for me. For several months I have been stuck and couldn't seem to move on because I really couldn't figure out what my true values were; this has been a problem for me all my life. Then one day last week I was at work not even thinking about ACT, values, etc when it sprang into my head---I know EXACTLY what I value; it's just not what I was raised to value, not what the world I live in values; I quickly scribbled down what was in my mind, and it still feels right and true for me. So for some, value work may come easy; for others, like me, it is a real sticking point. Thanks for this wonderful board, and please keep posting.

Toni Depression is a Learned Habit

Depression is a Learned Habit.

Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful.

First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.

http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm

Introduction

Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long

DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.

Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

Kavy

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1912 - Release Date: 1/23/2009 6:54 PM

January 24, 2009

I am trying to be more grateful and mindful of these things, like sunshine and trees, but I don't seem to connect well with them. I like nature but I don't seem to find it nurturing. I don't know what I'd care about if I was the last person on Earth. Most of what I consider my values have to do with interacting with other people.This morning I coached my daughter's third and fourth grade basketball team and at this point, there's nothing I enjoy more. But I still can't say I relaxed and enjoyed it like I imagine I would if I were healthy. We even came from behind and won. Yet that experience seems to have only a passing effect on me. This afternoon I feel intense anxiety and I'm just trying to get through the day. The quote from the MBCT book really describes me. I have taken a class in Mindfulness Meditation and while it was interesting, it was not transformative. However, to be fair, I did not do the amount of practice that was suggested. It really took a lot of time. It's not that I don't want to devote the time, it's just that I have a lot of work and family demands, plus I'm always tired so I'm trying to get more sleep. I don't know if the fatigue causes the depression or the depression causes the fatigue. But it's a problem for me.Sometimes I wonder how large our club really is. I've just been talking with random people who've told me they can't sleep, have terrible back problems, are seeing a counselor. I asked one lady last night how she was doing and she began to cry. She said that her work was making her very unhappy. But I've also heard doctors say that when depressed people get successful treatment, they can't believe how normal people feel.I'm sure I don't look depressed to the people I meet. I have a lot of activities, a good portion of which I've entered into to try and take my mind off how I feel. Like many people, I don't have a good reason to be depressed except fear and lack of confidence, coupled with an over-active struggle switch.Thanks and I appreciate all comments.BruceThe sunshine, the wind, the trees, the rain, the moon, the fog, early mornings, and at other times late at night. And romance.I'm learning singing in the rain on piano at the moment:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCpOKtN8MEKavy--- In ACT_for_the_Public , " Helena" wrote:>> I disagree. Values are not hard to find. You will find them when you stop thinking of values as what society wants or things that will make people like you. What do you really care about if you are the only person left living on the planet?> > Helena> > > Depression is a Learned Habit> > > > > Depression is a Learned Habit.> > > > > > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful. > > > > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.> > > > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm> > > > > > > > > > Introduction> > > > Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long> > > > > > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.> > > > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.> > > > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.> > > > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.> > > > Kavy>

January 24, 2009

Hi Toni:Can I ask you how that felt and how you knew that you'd found your values? I'd also love to know what you discovered your values were. If you don't want to post them, you can email me privately at onebnz@....Or if you're not comfortable sharing that information, I totally understand. Don't feel obligated. As I wrote earlier, I'm having a really hard time finding values coming from within me. I'm such a people-pleaser...although they're not always actually pleased :-)I find people having success really encouraging and I appreciate you sharing it with us.Thanks,BruceHi, my name is Toni and I have been "lurking" on this site for several months. I love the concept of ACT and really believe it is the truth for me. For several months I have been stuck and couldn't seem to move on because I really couldn't figure out what my true values were; this has been a problem for me all my life. Then one day last week I was at work not even thinking about ACT, values, etc when it sprang into my head---I know EXACTLY what I value; it's just not what I was raised to value, not what the world I live in values; I quickly scribbled down what was in my mind, and it still feels right and true for me. So for some, value work may come easy; for others, like me, it is a real sticking point. Thanks for this wonderful board, and please keep posting. Toni Depression is a Learned Habit Depression is a Learned Habit. Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful. First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be. http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm Introduction Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you. If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted. Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you. But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well. Kavy No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1912 - Release Date: 1/23/2009 6:54 PM

January 24, 2009

I find that values are an ever changing thing and my tendency to over

think makes me try to make them into more than they are. My value today

could be going to the store to buy something because I tend to stay

home. Or it could be that someone asks me to a movie. Here is my

choice- Follow my value (getting out with a friend) or my anxiety

(hiding in my house) Sometimes for me it is just that simple. I have to

try to simplify because I get caught up in the act of finding the values

rather than doing the value. Just my thought. Not that doing it

formally is not worth while and important I just have to watch myself

because I tend to get caught up in making it into a big 'THING'.

And yes getting past my conditioning from my childhood is something

there too. Just know that it is what I want and my past is going to

make my mind tell me something untrue. (Thanks mind but I would rather

do what I want right now and it is perfectly safe to do so)

Robyn

January 24, 2009

–

An awesome post as usual. I especially liked “The point is

that the value is not in the mind, it's in the doing.” How true.Bill

Re:

Depression is a Learned Habit

The 'mindfulness' part of

ACT has been more helpful to me as well,

but that is not to say that the 'values' part hasn't been helpful.

It has, very much so. The problem with 'values' is in how we

naturally interpret the concept, ie how we pursue the concept, ie

what the mind does with the concept.

My natural interpretation of the concept of a value is as a kind of

mind-indulgent, outcome-oriented, expectation-attached, highly-fused,

highly-evaluative, highly-infatuated pursuit of something.

Let me use a dangerous example--relationships.

I value a relationship with her. But I have nothing to offer her. I

feel inferior, inadequate, hopeless, ashamed to be who I am. My

stomach is in a knot right now. I just want to stay here and cry.

But I'm not going to let that rob me of something that I value--a

relationship with her. I'm going to ask her on a date.

So I ask her on a date. Surprised and obviously uninterested in me,

she tells me 'no' in the nicest, gentlest way that she can.

Ouch. So how do I feel now? Obviously, I feel worse, I feel more

inadequate, more ashamed of who I am, more inferior in comparison

with those non-depressed, non-anxious, interesting, attractive people

who she would be interested in. The process triggers all sorts of

sensitivities, memories of past pain, and so on.

The lesson is this. Don't pursue as an ACT 'value' something like

that. Bad. You're playing with the mind's fire in that case. You

will get burned.

A better example of a value to pursue in the context of ACT is

something that doesn't so easily get caught up inside of the mind's

expectations and attachments and evaluations and all-or-nothing

grandiosity. Something that isn't so heavily rooted in all that

stuff. Something that is done not to quench the mind's hot-headed

infatuations, but because it's something valuable to do.

So let me give a better example.

" I value a relationship with her. But I have nothing to offer her.

I feel inferior, inadequate, hopeless, ashamed to be who I am. My

stomach is in a knot right now. I just want to stay here and cry.

She's just so wonderful, and I'm just so not. I wish I could be to

her what she is to me. "

" OK, OK, OK, here we go again, been there done that. In the

meantime, this house is a mess. So I'm going to clean it. Might as

well get something done. "

And as the feelings come up, and the judgments, and the expectations,

you just gently put those down and go back to cleaning. And then

they come up again, and so on, and you put them down again, and so

on. And you just clean your house.

The point is that the value is not in the mind, it's in the doing.

It's not mind-centered, or attached to getting some feeling, or some

satisfaction, or some possession. You're just doing what is there to

be done, what is worthwhile to do. It could be reading to your kids,

it could be doing your taxes, and so on. The less grandiose, the

better.

Now, some kinds of values are going to be prone to generating weighty

evaluations, and sensitivities, and judgments, and attachments, and

so on. And that's OK. The key is that you have to know that all

that stuff is not the values part. So just put that down. And go

back to the values part, the doing part.

If your value is reading to your kids, for example, mind-stuff is

probably going to come up. " Are you a good enough for them? "

" Are

you doing parenthood right? " " Are you setting them up for

success? " " Do they look up to you? " " Are they proud of

you? " " Would they be proud of you if they really knew you? "

" Will

things be OK financially for you to provide them with a good

life " " Is doing this whole values thing making you feel less

depressed and ashamed? " " Is it working? "

OK, OK. Just put that stream down. And go back to reading the book

to your kids. That's where the value is, not in the thinking, or in

how it feels, or in any of the other evaluative, anticipatory mind-

stuff.

A value is a kind of silent doing. It is mind-less. It is hands and

feet. Motion. Action. You're out of the mind. (And then something

pulls you back into it, but that's OK, you just put it down and get

out of your mind again)

It's very difficult to describe in the right terms, or in terms that

will trigger the right notions in your mind, rather than the wrong

notions. So take all of it with a grain of salt, and just see what

works for you. Your experience, as always, has to be the final say.

And note that I'm not speaking for ACT in any of this, just what

works for me. Maybe the ACT professionals can weigh in.

>

> Depression is a Learned

> Habit.

>

> Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way

through

> Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon

> Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I

am

> skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning

> keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle

> everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school,

and

> have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me

the

> mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most

useful.

>

> First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques

> can be.

>

> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081130201928.htm

> <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081130201928.htm>

>

Introduction

>

> Tired of feeling So Bad

for So

> Long

>

> DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs

> you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday

> demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

>

> If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these

metaphors

> are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows

> that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal

> dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave

feeling

> hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and

> disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.

>

> Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically,

> nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact

> of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to

> return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this

has

> happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you

> may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are

failure.

> Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper

meaning,

> to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't

> come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty

and

> desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is

something

> fundamentally wrong with you.

>

> But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------

----\

> ----------------------------------------

>

> Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have

> learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no

genes, or

> anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can

> happen to anyone. We can all be well.

>

> Kavy

>

January 24, 2009

I hadn't read s post before writing this. I think I just did a

ditto on 's post. Excellent as usual.

Robyn wrote:

> I find that values are an ever changing thing and my tendency to over

> think makes me try to make them into more than they are. My value today

> could be going to the store to buy something because I tend to stay

> home. Or it could be that someone asks me to a movie. Here is my

> choice- Follow my value (getting out with a friend) or my anxiety

> (hiding in my house) Sometimes for me it is just that simple. I have to

> try to simplify because I get caught up in the act of finding the values

> rather than doing the value. Just my thought. Not that doing it

> formally is not worth while and important I just have to watch myself

> because I tend to get caught up in making it into a big 'THING'.

>

> And yes getting past my conditioning from my childhood is something

> there too. Just know that it is what I want and my past is going to

> make my mind tell me something untrue. (Thanks mind but I would rather

> do what I want right now and it is perfectly safe to do so)

>

> Robyn

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> For other ACT materials and list serves see www.contextualpsychology.org

>

> If you do not wish to belong to ACT_for_the_Public, you may

> unsubscribe by sending an email to

> ACT_for_the_Public-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

>

January 24, 2009

Bruce, you are describing exactly how I used to feel before I started on a low dosage of antidepressant medication. Don't rule it out, even if you get advice to the contrary on this list, which I am sure you will. Leave all options open, even the one that your depression may be helped by medication, and may not just be a habit you've gotten used to. "What's wrong with you" may actually be a lack of a certain neurotransmitter in your brain. If you were a diabetic, I am pretty sure you would consider taking insulin as a cure. Why not consider the same type of cure for depression, if it fits your diagnosis?

Helena

Depression is a Learned Habit> > > > > Depression is a Learned Habit.> > > > > > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful. > > > > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.> > > > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm> > > > > > > > > > Introduction> > > > Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long> > > > > > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.> > > > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.> > > > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.> > > > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?> > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.> > > > Kavy>

January 24, 2009

Robyn,

Exactly, the mind tries to make values into a really big deal,

something to get really worked up about, the ultimate meaning or test

of a life well lived.

" Did I live a good life? Well, the answer comes down to whether I

lived my values, how I fared in them, whether I ultimately achieved

them. "

I would suggest that the above quote is not where we want to go with

this. When we look at values in that sort of inflated, grandiose

way, they become fuel for evaluation, assessment, judgment, fusion,

attachment, and so on. We get all wrapped up in them.

What we want to do is look at them as just things that are worthwhile

to pursue. Just that. To pursue becase... well, why not? Nothing

more. Not a big deal. Not a reflection on anything. Not a

measurement of anything.

No need to worry about how well we've realized or adhered or achieved

our values--that's not our business anyway. The future is not our

business, the outcome is not our business, the 'meaning of life' is

not our business. Our business is just the 'doing' part.

Nor do we want to look at values as things that will 'truly fulfill'

us. All that does is up the stakes, up the ante, make us more

nervous, more attached, more inflexible, more outcome-oriented.

In the end, it's all a big lie anyway. Nothing can 'truly fulfill'

anything. No mind can be quenched. There will never be a point

where you will be able to say " Whew, I'm there, I'm where I want to

be, finally, the top of the mountain. Now, I can rest and enjoy. "

Something will come up. Something 'good' that you don't have,

something 'bad' that could as yet happen, and so on.

So here's another example.

" I've always wanted to play the guitar, but because of my anxiety I

never did. Well, now I'm going to do it. I'm not going to let these

demons get me. I deserve better, and I'm going to give myself

better. I'm so excited now, because this means that I'm finally

going to find that happiness that I've been searching for. "

OK, great, got it. Heard the story. Now, let's put it down and just

play the guitar. No need for the other commentary. And when the

mind asks whether you're playing well, put that question aside, and

go back to the playing part. And when the mind asks whether this is

making you feel better, whether it's giving you happiness, put that

question aside, and go back to the playing part. Let the story-

telling, the expecting, the anticipating, the attaching, the

evaluating--let it all just be there as you play, with your focus on

learning to play the instrument, rather than the mind-stuff that

wells up in the process. (I'm not saying that it's bad that that

such stuff wells up--of course it does, you have a mind, that's not

going to change. You just have to gently lay the stuff down, and go

back to the 'doing' part)

>

> I find that values are an ever changing thing and my tendency to

over

> think makes me try to make them into more than they are. My value

today

> could be going to the store to buy something because I tend to stay

> home. Or it could be that someone asks me to a movie. Here is my

> choice- Follow my value (getting out with a friend) or my

anxiety

> (hiding in my house) Sometimes for me it is just that simple. I

have to

> try to simplify because I get caught up in the act of finding the

values

> rather than doing the value. Just my thought. Not that doing it

> formally is not worth while and important I just have to watch

myself

> because I tend to get caught up in making it into a

big 'THING'.

>

> And yes getting past my conditioning from my childhood is something

> there too. Just know that it is what I want and my past is going

to

> make my mind tell me something untrue. (Thanks mind but I would

rather

> do what I want right now and it is perfectly safe to do so)

>

> Robyn

>

January 25, 2009

Antidepressants seem to work well for some people - although I'm

dubious for how long for - but there are risks. This is what happened

to some folk who took an antidepressant on my PSSD site. Neither of

them are on medication now, and one only took it for a month.

If you listen to the doctors, they will give you a rosey picture.

This is just to balance things up a bit. I think one day

antidepressants will be considered the nightmare that tranquillisers

were in the 60's. I can't stand back and not say anything after my

experience with them. No one knows if this is permanent, but some

people have been like this for 30 years. And you also run the risk

of not being able to fall in love again- emotional blunting it is

called.

I myself did not stop twitching for 18 months after stopping the

antidepressant - it used to feel like thousands of tiny insects

crawling through my body - and my hands and feet would cramp up and

stick to things. It frightened the life out of me and I still twitch

occassionally. These drugs just made everything a whole lot worse.

These risks might be quite rare, who knows, but listen to both sides

of the argument before you decide.

There is no evidense for 'chemical imballances' in the brain, that's

is just marketing by drug campanies. People don't need these things

like diabetics need insulin. That again is drug company jargon - it

is what they wish was true. Chemicals do change in the brain, but

that is a natural response to stress.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi im a 21 year old male. I was prescribed zoloft for 4 months and

began noticing the sexual dysfunction soon after starting it, a

couple months later it went away and i felt completely normal while

on the meds. My anxiety came back tho and the doc doubled my dosage

of the zoloft and the dysfunction came back. After the 4 months i

stopped taking it, its been 11 months now since my last dose and the

dysfunction still remains.

MY symptoms are-

*Lack of sensitivity in my penis, it has gotten better over time,

its about 40% of what it used to be now, the top of the shaft is

where it is worst, different areas of the penis are more sensitive

then others.

*When I cum it has a lot less feeling and it just kinda dribbles out.

*My emotional range has been cut down dramatically. It's like I

almost have complete apathy, this varies from day to day however.

*My rectum has also been numbed, even more so then my penis at this

point. I find this very odd and very uncomfortable at times.

*My nipples have also been numbed.

*Any area of the body that used to be very ticklish has become

numbed, including my sides, my arm pits, my lower stomach and upper

thighs. This is most noticable when taking a shower and im washing

myself, it feels like my skin is just rubber it has almost no

sensation at all.

I think that about covers it, I just thought I would share my own

effects of PSSD as I know it effects everyone differently.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I was the same way when I was on them. I thought I needed them and

was hell bent on taking them. My sex problems and emotional coldness

didn't come till after quiting the drug. I wish I could talk to him.

This exact drug ruined my life. I will give you my email or my number

if you think he would call or email me. Lexapro may potentially

permanently damage him. I had everything I could ever want I was a

division 1 college football player with beautiful college girls all

over I had great friends a nice truck and motorcycle I had it made. I

got on this drug cause the stress from school and football was

getting to me. Next thing I know I'm 21 years old and I'm physically

and mentally screwed. Everything fell apart. I just wish I could talk

to him

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Kavy

> >

> > I would suggest that the " values " listed are not really

values

> but acquired things. You can live in a nice house, have a great

job,

> be a good singer, have multiple degrees, etc., without having

> values. You may value these things, but they are not values in

and

> of themselves. They are more like goals, IMO.

> >

> > Helena

> >

> > Depression is a Learned Habit

> >

> > Depression is a

> Learned Habit.

> >

> > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful

> Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel

Segal,

> and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have

nice

> house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I

am

> now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many

> girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of

college

> since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief

from

> inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of

ACT is

> proving to be the most useful.

> >

> > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation

> techniques can be.

> >

> > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020

> 1928.htm

> >

> Introduction

> >

> > Tired of feeling So

> Bad for So Long

> >

> > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that

> robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a

> noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only

to you.

> >

> > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these

> metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by

> depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety,

enormous

> personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It

can

> leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive

> joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for

happiness

> never tasted.

> >

> > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet,

> ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long.

For

> the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become

depressed, it

> tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for

months. If

> this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting

> happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough,

that

> you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you

try to

> find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you

feel so

> bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might

even

> feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become

convinced

> that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

> >

> > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> >

> > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once

> we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just

think,

> no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted

> thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

> >

> > Kavy

> >

>

January 25, 2009

Bruce, if I were a male, I would be terrified to take antidepressants after reading these stories. My nephew was also scared to death of them and, although he was doing very well on them with no serious side effects, he stopped taking them. On the day he got a letter of acceptance to medical school, he committed suicide by jumping off a bridge.

Everyone has to do the research and decide for themselves. I disagree that there is no evidence for chemical imbalances in the brain. I know too many people, both personally and from well documented studies, who are helped by SSRI's. I also think they are way over prescribed and most people don't need them. But if you do, it can make all the difference in the world to your quality of life.

Everything you do involves risk; even eating peanut butter could kill you. If your life is as filled with anxiety as you describe, I think trying an anti anxiety med might be warranted. There are some that don't carry sexual side effects; perhaps you could ask your doctor about them--and avoid seeing a doc who is on the over-prescribing bandwagon. My doctor prescribes this type of meds very cautiously and makes me come in for a six month checkup before he will refill my prescription.

I have been taking SSRI's since they first came out in the early 1990's and I can't tell you how they have changed my life for the better. Every time I come off them, including this past summer, my major depression eventually re-occurs. My close friends spot it and say, "You stopped taking your meds again, didn't you?" In the sixties, I attempted suicide several times and almost made it on the last try. That's when those horrible antidepressants prescribed way back then saved my life, even though they made me drowsy and made my mouth dry.

Of course, if you have already decided that you absolutely don't want to take them, I am not trying to change your mind about that. I'm just telling you what works for me, for your consideration. For me, it is life threatening to NOT take them.

Helena

Depression is a Learned Habit> > > > > > > > > > Depression is a > Learned Habit.> > > > > > > > > > > > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful > Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, > and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice > house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am > now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many > girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college > since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from > inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is > proving to be the most useful. > > > > > > > > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation > techniques can be.> > > > > > > > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 > 1928.htm> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Introduction> > > > > > > > Tired of feeling So > Bad for So Long> > > > > > > > > > > > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that > robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a > noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.> > > > > > > > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these > metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by > depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous > personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can > leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive > joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness > never tasted.> > > > > > > > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, > ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For > the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it > tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If > this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting > happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that > you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to > find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so > bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even > feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced > that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.> > > > > > > > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?> > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > > > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once > we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, > no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted > thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.> > > > > > > > Kavy> >>

January 25, 2009

Hi ,

And when your mind says something stop taking it as fact. Take it as

floating garbage from the past. Feelings are not facts.

Here is another thing that might help. When my son was in the

/International Baccalaureate/ <http://www.ibo.org/>

program at his school, this is an intensive school program and it is

very difficult, he would have problems with procrastination so I told

him to start reading a book or start some big project and just do an

hour at a time and break it down and if he wanted to do more that would

be fine but commit to an hour. It is not weird for us to do the same

with some of these 'values'. Just start for 10 minutes and see what

happens but be flexible and give ourselves permission to stop after 10

minutes if we need to. And be kind to ourselves to realize that we have

to do this sometimes because of what we have been through. I still

think we are the best people around because of how hard we are all

trying with this.

This is how we start healing and being kind to ourselves and stop

beating ourselves up like our past does.

Robyn

Parks wrote:

>

> Robyn,

>

> Exactly, the mind tries to make values into a really big deal,

> something to get really worked up about, the ultimate meaning or test

> of a life well lived.

>

> " Did I live a good life? Well, the answer comes down to whether I

> lived my values, how I fared in them, whether I ultimately achieved

> them. "

>

> I would suggest that the above quote is not where we want to go with

> this. When we look at values in that sort of inflated, grandiose

> way, they become fuel for evaluation, assessment, judgment, fusion,

> attachment, and so on. We get all wrapped up in them.

>

> What we want to do is look at them as just things that are worthwhile

> to pursue. Just that. To pursue becase... well, why not? Nothing

> more. Not a big deal. Not a reflection on anything. Not a

> measurement of anything.

>

> No need to worry about how well we've realized or adhered or achieved

> our values--that's not our business anyway. The future is not our

> business, the outcome is not our business, the 'meaning of life' is

> not our business. Our business is just the 'doing' part.

>

> Nor do we want to look at values as things that will 'truly fulfill'

> us. All that does is up the stakes, up the ante, make us more

> nervous, more attached, more inflexible, more outcome-oriented.

>

> In the end, it's all a big lie anyway. Nothing can 'truly fulfill'

> anything. No mind can be quenched. There will never be a point

> where you will be able to say " Whew, I'm there, I'm where I want to

> be, finally, the top of the mountain. Now, I can rest and enjoy. "

> Something will come up. Something 'good' that you don't have,

> something 'bad' that could as yet happen, and so on.

>

> So here's another example.

>

> " I've always wanted to play the guitar, but because of my anxiety I

> never did. Well, now I'm going to do it. I'm not going to let these

> demons get me. I deserve better, and I'm going to give myself

> better. I'm so excited now, because this means that I'm finally

> going to find that happiness that I've been searching for. "

>

> OK, great, got it. Heard the story. Now, let's put it down and just

> play the guitar. No need for the other commentary. And when the

> mind asks whether you're playing well, put that question aside, and

> go back to the playing part. And when the mind asks whether this is

> making you feel better, whether it's giving you happiness, put that

> question aside, and go back to the playing part. Let the story-

> telling, the expecting, the anticipating, the attaching, the

> evaluating--let it all just be there as you play, with your focus on

> learning to play the instrument, rather than the mind-stuff that

> wells up in the process. (I'm not saying that it's bad that that

> such stuff wells up--of course it does, you have a mind, that's not

> going to change. You just have to gently lay the stuff down, and go

> back to the 'doing' part)

>

> >

> > I find that values are an ever changing thing and my tendency to

> over

> > think makes me try to make them into more than they are. My value

> today

> > could be going to the store to buy something because I tend to stay

> > home. Or it could be that someone asks me to a movie. Here is my

> > choice- Follow my value (getting out with a friend) or my

> anxiety

> > (hiding in my house) Sometimes for me it is just that simple. I

> have to

> > try to simplify because I get caught up in the act of finding the

> values

> > rather than doing the value. Just my thought. Not that doing it

> > formally is not worth while and important I just have to watch

> myself

> > because I tend to get caught up in making it into a

> big 'THING'.

> >

> > And yes getting past my conditioning from my childhood is something

> > there too. Just know that it is what I want and my past is going

> to

> > make my mind tell me something untrue. (Thanks mind but I would

> rather

> > do what I want right now and it is perfectly safe to do so)

> >

> > Robyn

> >

>

January 25, 2009

Helena,

I am so sorry about your nephew that is terrible. I cannot take meds.

I have been pushed to do it even when I told them I couldn't take them.

And the last time it was horrible. I am mad at my last therapist for

forcing me to do something I knew would not work. But, I know many

people who can take them and I say DO IT. It just depends on the

person. If they helped me I would be on them in a second. We need to

do what we need to do. There is no one way. For those of you that

cannot take meds. Fish oil and Mood factors is very helpful.

Robyn

January 25, 2009

Thanks, Robyn. That is exactly my take on it: Do what works for you. I also take fish oil and recently added 1000 IU vitamin D and sublingual B-12. I really think it has helped my mood a lot. I had a blood test which showed I was low in B-12, and a lot has been written lately about the importance of vitamin D.

I try to do everything that helps me, including the basics of good nutrition and exercise, and I totally understand that what works for me may not work for anyone else.

Helena

Re: Re: Depression is a Learned Habit

Helena,I am so sorry about your nephew that is terrible. I cannot take meds. I have been pushed to do it even when I told them I couldn't take them. And the last time it was horrible. I am mad at my last therapist for forcing me to do something I knew would not work. But, I know many people who can take them and I say DO IT. It just depends on the person. If they helped me I would be on them in a second. We need to do what we need to do. There is no one way. For those of you that cannot take meds. Fish oil and Mood factors is very helpful.Robyn

January 25, 2009

Hi, Bruce:

When I first read your question, I thought this "revelation" just came out of the blue, but after thinking about it, I think it was triggered by Obama's inauguration. I felt so much welling up of emotion and passion for what I saw unfolding -- I actually teared up at times. I realized that what I find most important is the connections we have, the web of life, that we are all brothers and sisters in this thing together, and that what I need to do is honor this connection, respect and honor all life around me. I am refining this now, breaking it down to more specific thoughts, actions, etc. I have had problems with low grade depression all my adult life, and I tend to shut myself off from people, just read and watch tv. So this requires me to open up and become involved with people, animals, life in all it's various forms. ACT helps me so much because I finally realize that thoughts are just thougthts, not THE TRUTH as I used to believe, and I can choose to ignore them and move on to act on my values. Hope this makes sense. The thing is, I had been trying for months and months to figure out my values, but all attempts felt false and artificial, so I had sort of thrown in the towel and decided I don't have any values. Then this happened. So I really understand what you are going through, and I hope this helps a little.

Toni

Depression is a Learned Habit

Depression is a Learned Habit.

Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel Segal, and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have nice house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I am now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of college since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief from inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of ACT is proving to be the most useful.

First, here's link showing how effective these meditation techniques can be.

http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020 1928.htm

Introduction

Tired of feeling So Bad for So Long

DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only to you.

If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety, enormous personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It can leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for happiness never tasted.

Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet, ironically, nothing we do seems to help…at least not for long. For the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become depressed, it tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for months. If this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough, that you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you try to find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you feel so bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might even feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just think, no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

Kavy

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1912 - Release Date: 1/23/2009 6:54 PM

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January 25, 2009

When I was on SSRI I also have sexual problems (dysfunction), so I

stoped taken it. This was the main reason.

If things going to be good I will never be again on SSRI. Thanks god I

found ACT

> > >

> > > I would suggest that the " values " listed are not really

> values

> > but acquired things. You can live in a nice house, have a great

> job,

> > be a good singer, have multiple degrees, etc., without having

> > values. You may value these things, but they are not values in

> and

> > of themselves. They are more like goals, IMO.

> > >

> > > Helena

> > >

> > > Depression is a Learned Habit

> > >

> > > Depression is a

> > Learned Habit.

> > >

> > > Below is the first page of the introduction to the Mindful

> > Way through Depression by Mark , Teesdale, Zindel

> Segal,

> > and Jon Kabat-Zinn. I have pursued values all my life: I have

> nice

> > house, I am skilled at many types of dancing, play guitar and I

> am

> > now learning keyboards and programming synths. I have had many

> > girlfriends, cycle everywhere; do yoga, done 11 years of

> college

> > since leaving school, and have a good job, but still no relief

> from

> > inner unhappiness. For me the mindfulness and defusion part of

> ACT is

> > proving to be the most useful.

> > >

> > > First, here's link showing how effective these meditation

> > techniques can be.

> > >

> > > http://www.scienced aily.com/ releases/ 2008/11/08113020

> > 1928.htm

> > >

> > Introduction

> > >

> > > Tired of feeling So

> > Bad for So Long

> > >

> > > DEPRESSION HURTS. It is the `BLACK DOG' of the night that

> > robs you of joy, the unquiet mind that keeps you awake. It's a

> > noonday demon that only you can see, the darkness visible only

> to you.

> > >

> > > If you have picked up this book, chances are you know these

> > metaphors are no exaggeration. Anyone who has been visited by

> > depression knows that it can cause debilitating anxiety,

> enormous

> > personal dissatisfaction, and an empty feeling of despair. It

> can

> > leave feeling hopeless, listless, and worn down by pervasive

> > joylessness and disappointment associated with longing for

> happiness

> > never tasted.

> > >

> > > Any of us would do anything not to feel this way. Yet,

> > ironically, nothing we do seems to help & #65533;at least not for long.

> For

> > the sad fact of the matter is that once you have become

> depressed, it

> > tends to return, even if you have been feeling better for

> months. If

> > this has happened to you, or if you can't seem to find lasting

> > happiness, you may end up feeling that you are not good enough,

> that

> > you are failure. Your thoughts may go round and round as you

> try to

> > find deeper meaning, to understand once and for all why you

> feel so

> > bad. If you can't come up with a satisfactory answer, you might

> even

> > feel more empty and desperate. Ultimately, you may become

> convinced

> > that there is something fundamentally wrong with you.

> > >

> > > But what if there is nothing wrong with you at all?

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------

> > --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

> > >

> > > Depression, their research has shown, is learned habit. Once

> > we have learned how to be depressed it just comes back. Just

> think,

> > no genes, or anything seriously wrong, just a load of twisted

> > thinking that can happen to anyone. We can all be well.

> > >

> > > Kavy

> > >

> >

>

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