Re: Need help with formulation (very long!)

[Guest guest]

Maurice this is very helpful and even the newbie got this one. You explained it

very well. Does this work if you have something like hairspray? I would be

worried about it catching fire. Is there a way to get MSDS sheets on products?

Would they give these out to the general public. That would be the only way I

could think of to get the flashpoint of a product.

a

http://www.purrfectcrafts.com

http://www.ebaystores.com/purrfectcrafts

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:59:30 -0400, Joyce Hoffman-Gayley wrote:

>I have a customer who would like me to make a dupe of the Kiwi-Chamomile

Smoothing Lotion that comes in the Nad's Hair removable kit. She is looking to

purchase up

to a gallon at a time, so it is worth all the trouble to me! This is the list

of ingredients:

>

>Purified Water

>Safflower Oil

>Glycerine

>Glyceryl Stearate

>Emulsifying Wax NF

>Chamomile Extract

>Aloe Vera Extract

>Kiwi Extract

>Tocopheryl Acetate

>Retinyl Palmitate

>Ascorbic Acid

>Phospholipids

>Sphingolipids

>Polysorbate 60 carbomer

>Triethanolmine

>Methylparaben

>Propylparaben

>Phenoxyethanol

>Fragrance

When I'm trying to duplicate a formula, one of the first things that I

do is determine the amount of water in the formula. If you know how

much water is in the formula you can calculate the percent solids. This

number is important when you want/need to duplicate any formula.

Laboratories have special ovens and devices to determine the percent

solids in a product. But you can do the same thing using your oven.

Step 1) find 3 or 4 small weighing boats. I use small aluminum weighing

boats. Weighing boats are usually shallow containers that are made out

of plastic, glass or aluminum. I like to use aluminum when I'm doing a

percent solids because it won't melt in the oven and they are

disposible.

In the home, you can use small shallow Pyrex bowls or even clean metal

caps from old jars would work.

Step 2) Determine the weight of each weighing boat. This is the Tare

Weight.

Step 3) Add a small amount of your unknown product to each boat.

Step 4) re-weigh the weighing boats with the product. This is the Gross

Weight.

Now with a little math, we can tell how much product is in each

weighing boat. This is the net weight.

Weighing Boat 1 w/o product = 9.7 grams (aka Tare Weight)

Weighing Boat 1 w/ product = 15.2 grams (aka Gross Weight)

So, the amount of unknown product in Weighing Boat 1 is equal to the

weight of Weighing Boat 1 w/ product minus the weight of Weighing Boat

1 w/o product or 15.2 grams - 9.7 grams = 5.5 grams. This is also

called the Net Weight.

So that means that Weighting Boat 1 contains 5.5 grams.

You should repeat steps 1 through 4 at least three or four times so

that you will have Weighing Boats 1 through 4.

Step 5) Next put these weighing boats on a cookie sheet and put into

oven set at 195F.

Step 6) After 3 to 4 hours of heating, remove samples from the oven and

re-weight the weighing boats to see how much water is lost.

Here's a real life example. I wanted to duplicate a shampoo and need to

know how much water was used in the formula. I did the testing in

triplicate.

BEFORE HEATING

SAMPLE 1

Tare Wt = Weighing Boat 1 empty = 1.27 grams

Gross Wt = Weighing Boat 1 w/ shampoo = 7.14 grams

Net Weight = (Gross Wt - Tare Wt) = 7.14g - 1.27g = 5.87 grams

SAMPLE 2

Tare Wt = Weighing Boat 2 empty = 1.26 grams

Gross Wt = Weighing Boat 2 w/ shampoo = 6.48 grams

Net Weight = (Gross Wt - Tare Wt) = 6.48g - 1.26g = 5.22 grams

SAMPLE 3

Tare Wt = Weighing Boat 3 empty = 1.27 grams

Gross Wt = Weighing Boat 3 w/ shampoo = 8.97 grams

Net Weight = (Gross Wt - Tare Wt) = 8.97g - 1.27g = 7.7 grams

AFTER HEATING

SAMPLE 1

Tare Wt = Weighing Boat 1 empty = 1.27 grams

Gross Wt = Weighing Boat 1 w/ shampoo = 2.17 grams

Net Weight = (Gross Wt - Tare Wt) = 2.17g - 1.27g = 0.9 grams

SAMPLE 2

Tare Wt = Weighing Boat 2 empty = 1.26 grams

Gross Wt = Weighing Boat 2 w/ shampoo = 2.06 grams

Net Weight = (Gross Wt - Tare Wt) = 2.06g - 1.26g = 0.8 grams

SAMPLE 3

Tare Wt = Weighing Boat 3 empty = 1.27 grams

Gross Wt = Weighing Boat 3 w/ shampoo = 2.46 grams

Net Weight = (Gross Wt - Tare Wt) = 2.46g - 1.27g = 1.19 grams

By heating these samples, we have evaporated all the water and all that

remains are the other chemicals called solids.

If we know the weight before heating and the weight after heating, we

can calculate the percent solids for each sample, then we can calculate

the average percent solids.

SAMPLE 1

5.87 grams = 100%

0.9 grams = % solids

% solids = (0.9 x 100)/5.87

% solids = 15.3%

SAMPLE 2

5.22 grams = 100%

0.8 grams = % solids

% solids = (0.8 x 100)/5.22

% solids = 15.3%

SAMPLE 3

7.7 grams = 100%

1.19 grams = % solids

% solids = (1.19 x 100)/7.7

% solids = 15.5%

The average % solids is equal to 15.4

Therefore the product being tested in this example contains about 85%

water.

The next thing I like to do is determine the " 1% line " . According the

FDA labeling regulations,

21 CFR 701.3(f)

As an alternative to listing all ingredients in descending order of

predominance, ingredients may be grouped and the groups listed in the

following manner and order:

(1) Ingredients, other than color additives, present at a

concentration greater than 1 percent, in descending order of

predominance; followed by

(2) Ingredients, other than color additives, present at a

concentration of not more than 1 percent, without respect to order of

predominance; followed by

(3) Color additives, without respect to order of predominance.

Ingredients specified in paragraph (f)(2) of this section may be

included with those specified in paragraph (f)(1) of this section and

listed in descending order of predominance.

So if we look at the ingredient list again

Purified Water

Safflower Oil

Glycerine

Glyceryl Stearate

Emulsifying Wax NF

-------------------> 1% Line

Chamomile Extract

Aloe Vera Extract

Kiwi Extract

Tocopheryl Acetate

Retinyl Palmitate

Ascorbic Acid

Phospholipids

Sphingolipids

Polysorbate 60

carbomer

Triethanolmine

Methylparaben

Propylparaben

Phenoxyethanol

Fragrance

I would say that everything below Emulsifying Wax NF is at 1% or less.

>I have the water (duh), safflower oil, glycerin, e-wax (Polawax), Chamomile

extract,

>Here's my problem - I don't have all these ingredients on hand, but will get

them if necessary. Maybe I can substitute some of them for other things?

I thnk that the following items

Chamomile Extract

Aloe Vera Extract

Kiwi Extract

Tocopheryl Acetate

Retinyl Palmitate

Ascorbic Acid

Phospholipids

Sphingolipids

Polysorbate 60

are fluff and could be eliminated or replaced with other fluff.

>My questions are:

>1 - What is the difference between Polysorbate 20, 60 & 80?

These are three different nonionc emulsifiers with three different

HLBs.

Polysorbate 20 (HLB = 16.7)

Polysorbate 60 (HLB = 14.9)

Polysorbate 80 (HLB = 15)

abd going into the dusty message archives we have:

>The differences are related to the sorbitan ester used as the starting point

>in the polysorbate. Polysorbate-20 is POE-20 Sorbitan te,

>Polysorbate-60 is POE-20 Sorbitan Stearate and Polysorbate-80 is POE-20

>Sorbitan Oleate. There is also a Polysorbate-40 that is POE-20 Sorbitan

>Palmitate. To make the sorbitan ester the starting material is sorbitol

>anhydride, which is two moles of sorbitol minus one mole of water that is

>reacted with the various fatty acids. This material is then reacted with

>ethylene oxide to form the finished product. Sorbitol is the alcohol that is

>extracted from sorghum and other corns. It has a sweet taste like glycerin.

>FYI, the old name for glycerin is glycerol. Note the use of the 'ol' suffix

>to indicate the chemical type of the material. Both of these are classified

>as polyhydric alcohols. Polyhydric means that they have more than one 'ol'

>group in the molecular structure.

>2 - Is Tocopheryl acetate & tocopheryls the same?

Tocopheryl Acetate, sometimes called Vitamin E Acetate, is bioconverted

to Vitamin E in the skin. Tocopheryl Acetate will not act as an

antioxidant in your formula.

d alpha Tocopherol is Vitamin E. Tocopherol is act as an antioxidant

in your formula.

>3 - I have been told phospholipids & sphingolipids are the same as Ceramides -

but what are Cerimides? and where do I find them?

Centerchem, Inc.

20 Glover Avenue

Norwalk, CT 06850

Tel:

FAX:

Web: http://www.centerchem.com

For this formula, I wouldn't waste my time or money. HYPE!

>4 - What is the difference between aloe vera & aloe vera extract?

Another scam. There is only a small amount of Aloe Vera Extract in the

formula.

Aloe Barbadensis Flower Extract is an extract of the flowers of the

aloe, Aloe barbadensis.

Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract is an extract of the leaves of the aloe,

Aloe barbadensis.

Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice is the juice expressed from the leaves of

the aloe, Aloe barbadensis.

>5 - Would Germaben II be my choice for a preservative?

Germaben II is one possible choice.

>6 - Can I substitute GMS for the glyceryl stearate?

GMS stands for Gylceryl Monostearate which is the same as Glyceryl

Stearate.

>7 - Can I make my own Kiwi extract? I can't find a supplier for it.

The Kiwi Extract doesn't do anything in this formula.

>8 - What percentages would you think would be appropriate for each ingredient?

If your percent solids comes out to 24%, then the formula may look like

one of these formulas:

WATER PHASE

Water = 76.891 %

Carbomer = 0.3 %

Glycerin = 2 %

Chamomile Extract = 0.001 %

Aloe Vera Extract = 0.001 %

Kiwi Extract = 0.001 %

OIL PHASE

Safflower Oil = 15 %

Emulsifying Wax NF = 3 %

Glyceryl Stearate = 1 %

NEUTRALIZER

Triethanolamine = 0.3 %

FLUFF PHASE

Tocopheryl Acetate = 0.001 %

Retinyl Palmitate = 0.001 %

Ascorbic Acid = 0.001 %

Phospholipids = 0.001 %

Sphingolipids = 0.001 %

Polysorbate 60 = 0.001 %

PRESERVATIVE

Germaben II = 1 %

FRAGRANCE

Fragrance = 0.5 %

or increasing the " fluff " ingredients, we could have something like

this:

WATER PHASE

Water = 76 %

Carbomer = 0.3 %

Glycerin = 2 %

Chamomile Extract = 0.1 %

Aloe Vera Extract = 0.1 %

Kiwi Extract = 0.1 %

OIL PHASE

Safflower Oil = 15 %

Emulsifying Wax NF = 3 %

Glyceryl Stearate = 1 %

NEUTRALIZER

Triethanolamine = 0.3 %

FLUFF PHASE

Tocopheryl Acetate = 0.1 %

Retinyl Palmitate = 0.1 %

Ascorbic Acid = 0.1 %

Phospholipids = 0.1 %

Sphingolipids = 0.1 %

Polysorbate 60 = 0.1 %

PRESERVATIVE

Germaben II = 1 %

FRAGRANCE

Fragrance = 0.5 %

Heat Water Phase and Oil Phase to 80C.

At 80C, with stirring, add the Oil Phase to Water Phase

Continue stirring and beging cooling.

At 60C to 70C, add Triethanolamine

Continue stirring and cooling

Add Fluff Phase at 60C

Continue stirring and cooling

Add Germaben II at 45C to 50C

Continue stirring and cooling

Add Fragrance at 30C and continue stirring and cool to 5C to 8C.

>9 - And last but not least, I have read various opinions on the use of

triethanolmine, any thoughts?

I haven't no idea what " opinions " you are talking about.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Very educational post, Maurice. Thank you. I really enjoy your

explanations. = )

Dee ~ ><}}}*>~~><}}}*>~~ ><}}}*>~

Re: Need help with formulation (very long!)

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:59:30 -0400, Joyce Hoffman-Gayley wrote:

[Guest guest]

Clear DayMaurice,

Thank you so much for your wonderfully detailed answer to my post. You have

given me so many things to think about as well as alternate ideas to utilize. I

really can't thank you enough for sharing this info so generously. If you

like, I will let you know how the lotion turns out .

The comment I made about various opinions on the use of triethanolmine is from a

group discussion I overheard at a gathering. I believe this particular group

was " only natural ingredients " purists, and that might account for their dislike

of anything that sounds " chemical " . I just thought I would throw that into my

message, in the hopes of getting a professional (chemist) opinion. Please

correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the triethanolmine is used to neutralize the

stearic acid and help get pH of the formula into the 7.2-8.2 range.

Joyce

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:15:00 -0700, a's Chat Groups wrote:

>Maurice this is very helpful and even the newbie got this one. You explained

it very well. Does this work if you have something like hairspray? I would be

worried about it

catching fire.

I guess you are talking about doing a percent solids on hairspays. You do not

want to do a percent solids on any product that contains flammable liquids or

entrapped

gases. Because of California's VOC regulations, the maximum amount of Ethyl

Acohol permitted in California is 55%.

from the message archives:

>If you plan on using ethyl alcohol in any of your formulas, you also

>have to comply with the regulations of California's Air Resources Board

>(CARB) regulations that apply to consumer products since ethyl alcohol

>is defined by CARB as a Volatile Organic Compound (VOC).

>

>The main CARB website is at:

>http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm

>

>Regulation for Reducing VOC Emissions From Consumer Products (AKA " the

>general consumer products regulation " ), can be found at:

>

>http://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/regs/Cpreg.doc

>or

>http://www.arb.ca.gov/consprod/regs/Cpreg.pdf

>Is there a way to get MSDS sheets on products? Would they give these out to

the general public.

If you purchase hairspray to use in your workplace (salon), the manufacturer of

the hairspray is required to supply a MSDS.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------