Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 This message is posted for another soap/toiletry maker - she is having trouble sending email today. We talked on the phone. The scrub is very nice but it looses some of it's emulsified properties and oils or butters rise to the top. This is not good if you have containers that are to be shipped (the heat) or tend to leak. This is Sutton's formula and I believe Maurice may have had some input. Please look over the formula. Any tips on PROCESS and or ingredients will be greatly appreciated. Sometime back in May S. posted her recipe for an emulsifying scrub, below: 15% E-wax NF 10% Cetyl Alcohol 5% PS 20 33% liquid oils (I used sweet almond) 34% Butters (I used shea/mango) 1.5% EO/FO ..5% phenonip salt (I used sugar) I love, love, love this recipe. . . until the heat, and I mean any heat, gets it. It's nice and creamy until then - and then it separates terribly. I'm wondering - said in her notes that she used she and cocoa butters as her butters. Would the addition of a more solid butter help me here? (Would a little beeswax be a big no-no?). I know we can't expect our products to take excessive heat, but I'd at least like for my customers to get it home ) Bobbi Guerra The Purple Sage Fine Hand Made Bath & Body Products www.thepurplesage.com - Now Open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 If it were me and I would use something other than salt or sugar for the scrubbie part. Those two items (in my experience of observation) separate out the water content if given enough time. Dee ~ ><}}}*>~~><}}}*>~~ ><}}}*>~ ----- Original Message ----- Sometime back in May S. posted her recipe for an emulsifying scrub, below: 15% E-wax NF 10% Cetyl Alcohol 5% PS 20 33% liquid oils (I used sweet almond) 34% Butters (I used shea/mango) 1.5% EO/FO .5% phenonip salt (I used sugar) I love, love, love this recipe. . . until the heat, and I mean any heat, gets it. It's nice and creamy until then - and then it separates terribly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2003 Report Share Posted July 25, 2003 >Please look over the formula. Any tips on PROCESS and or ingredients will be greatly appreciated. > >Sometime back in May S. posted her recipe for an emulsifying scrub, >below: >15% E-wax NF >10% Cetyl Alcohol >5% PS 20 >33% liquid oils (I used sweet almond) >34% Butters (I used shea/mango) >1.5% EO/FO >.5% phenonip >salt (I used sugar) Since the formula does not add up to 100% Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % Polysorbate 20 = 5 % Sweet Almond Oil = 33 % Shea Butter = 34 % Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % Phenonip = 0.5 % Total Weight = 99 % I made a minor change Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % Polysorbate 20 = 5 % Sweet Almond Oil = 34 % Shea Butter = 34 % Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % Phenonip = 0.5 % Total Weight = 100 % Basically what we want to create an oil phase that will emulsify when added to water. Before we go further, I am going to going to assume that Emulsifying Wax NF is 75% Cetearyl Alcohol and 25% Polysorbate 60. So now, our formula looks like Cetearyl Alcohol = 11.25 % Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % Polysorbate 20 = 5 % Sweet Almond Oil = 34 % Shea Butter = 34 % Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % Phenonip = 0.5 % Polysorbate 60 = 3.75 % Total Weight = 100 % and our oil phase consist of 11.25% Cetearyl Alcohol 10% Cetyl Alcohol 34% Sweet Almond Oil 34% Shea Butter Then total amount of oils in our Oil Phase = 89.25% To calculate the required HLB of our Oil Phase, we must calculate the composition of our Oil Phase in terms of percentage. But we already know that the total amount of oils in our Oil Phase = 89.25% Therefore we can say that 89.25% of our formula = 100% of the Oil Phase, If 89.25% = 100% and 11.25% = X % then X = (100 X 11.25) / 89.25 X = 1125 / 89.25 X = 12.61% Therefore Cetearyl Alcohol is 12.61% of the oil phase. If 89.25% = 100% and 10% = X % then X = (100 X 10) / 89.25 X = 1000 / 89.25 X = 11.2% and Cetyl Alcohol is 11.2% of the oil phase. If 89.25% = 100% and 34% = X % then X = (100 X 34) / 89.25 X = 3400 / 89.25 X = 38.1% and Sweet Almond Oil is 38.1% of the oil phase. If 89.25% = 100% and 34% = X % then X = (100 X 34) / 89.25 X = 3400 / 89.25 X = 38.1% and Shea Butter is 38.1% of the oil phase. So now, we can say Cetearyl Alcohol = 11.25% of the formula and 12.61% of the oil phase. Cetyl Alcohol = 10% of the formula and 11.2% of the oil phase. Sweet Almond Oil = 34% of the formula and 38.1% of the oil phase. Shea Butter = 34% of the formula and 38.1% of the oil phase. But we also know or have assumed that the required HLB of Cetearyl Alcohol is 15.5 the required HLB of Cetyl Alcohol is 15.5 the required HLB of Sweet Almond Oil is 7 the required HLB of Shea Butter is 8 To calculate the required HLB of the Oil Phase, we multiply the percentage of each oil in the Oil Phase by its respective required HLB and sum the results. (12.61/100) X 15.5 = 0.1261 X 15.5 = 1.95 (11.2/100) X 15.5 = 0.112 X 15.5 = 1.74 (38.1/100) X 7 = 0.381 X 7 = 2.67 (38.1/100) X 8 = 0.381 X 8 = 3.05 The required HLB of our oil phase is the sum of these numbers or 9.4 Polysorbate 20 has a HLB of 16.7 and the HLB of Polysorbate 60 is 14.9. It will be impossible to match the required HLB of your Oil Phase (9.4) with two high HLB emulsifiers like Polysorbate 20 and Polysorbate 60. You'll need a low HLB emulsifier like Glyceryl Stearate. we know that Glyceryl Stearate has a HLB of 3.8 and Polysorbate 60 has a HLB of 14.9 and 49.51% X 3.8 + 50.49% X 14.9 = 0.4951 X 3.8 + 0.5049 X 14.9 = 1.88 + 7.52 = 9.4 Therefore, an emulsifying system that contains 49.51% Glyceryl Stearate and 50.49% Polysorbate 60 will have a HLB of 9.4 So if you want your emulsion to contain 7.45% emulsifier, you will need 49.51% X 7.45 = 0.5 X 7.45 = 3.69% Glyceryl Stearate 50.49% X 7.45 = 0.5 X 7.45 = 3.76% Polysorbate 60 I think your formula should look like this Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % Gyceryl Stearate = 3.7 % Sweet Almond Oil = 34.65 % Shea Butter = 34.65 % Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % Phenonip = 0.5 % If that formula is too stiff or hard, you may want to increase the oils or you could even go to a " liquid " low HLB emulsifier like Sorbitan Stearate which has a HLB of 4.3. If you use Sorbitan Stearate, the formula will look like this: Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % Sorbitan Oleate = 4 % Sweet Almond Oil = 34.5 % Shea Butter = 34.5 % Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % Phenonip = 0.5 % Good luck and let us know what happens. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 In a message dated 7/25/03 7:21:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, maurice@... writes: > Polysorbate 20 has a HLB of 16.7 and the HLB of Polysorbate 60 is 14.9. It > will be impossible to match the required HLB of your Oil Phase (9.4) with > two high HLB > emulsifiers like Polysorbate 20 and Polysorbate 60. > > You'll need a low HLB emulsifier like Glyceryl Stearate. > > we know that > > Glyceryl Stearate has a HLB of 3.8 and > Polysorbate 60 has a HLB of 14.9 > > and > > 49.51% X 3.8 + 50.49% X 14.9 = > 0.4951 X 3.8 + 0.5049 X 14.9 = > 1.88 + 7.52 = 9.4 > > Therefore, an emulsifying system that contains > > 49.51% Glyceryl Stearate and > 50.49% Polysorbate 60 > > will have a HLB of 9.4 > > So if you want your emulsion to contain 7.45% emulsifier, you will need > > 49.51% X 7.45 = 0.5 X 7.45 = 3.69% Glyceryl Stearate > 50.49% X 7.45 = 0.5 X 7.45 = 3.76% Polysorbate 60 > > I think your formula should look like this > > Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % > Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % > Gyceryl Stearate = 3.7 % > Sweet Almond Oil = 34.65 % > Shea Butter = 34.65 % > Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % > Phenonip = 0.5 % > > If that formula is too stiff or hard, you may want to increase the oils or > you could even go to a " liquid " low HLB emulsifier like Sorbitan Stearate > which has a HLB of 4.3. > > If you use Sorbitan Stearate, the formula will look like this: > > Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % > Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % > Sorbitan Oleate = 4 % > Sweet Almond Oil = 34.5 % > Shea Butter = 34.5 % > Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % > Phenonip = 0.5 % > > Good luck and let us know what happens. Hi Maurice and All, Why completely emulsify the scrub? It seems to me that if the scrub is completely emulsified, no oil will be left on the skin. What do you think about partially emulsifying the scrub and therefore leaving some of the oil on the skin? This is te way I've been doing the scrubs for some time now. I've found that polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers or surfactants works fine for this purpose. Also, I know this isn't a question here, but there may be some confusion regarding emulsification and scrubs. I get the question all the time about what is needed to " emulsify " the scrub. The scrub itself doesn't need to be emulsified to " hold together " because it's anhydrous. The ingredients can simply be melted together (minus the salt which is not part of the formula since it's inert). By adjusting the percentages of a liquid oil, solid oil/fat/lipid/fatty alcohol, the scrub can be made as firm or loose as desired. I usually add the polysorbate 20 or whatever to the melted and almost cool scrub, along with the essential oils. The addition of the emulsifier or surfactant or liquid soap is there to improve the feel of the scrub and to allow the anhydrous scrub to emulsify with the water in the shower. So, to me, the ideal would be for SOME of the oil to emulsify and be washed away, but not all??? Maybe I'm missing something here? Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Good Morning Maurice > > > >Why completely emulsify the scrub? > > Why not? But I don't think that you want to solubilize an anhydrous > scrub. An emulsion takes " two to tango " , right? So we can't really form an emulsion in an anhydrous scrub--can we?? In other words, when I said 'emulsify the scrub', I was referring to the anhydrous scrub that contains an emulsifier " doing it's thing " with the water in the shower. Why wouldn't I want to solubilize an anhydrous scrub? > > >It seems to me that if the scrub is > >completely emulsified, no oil will be left on the skin. What do you think > about > >partially emulsifying the scrub and therefore leaving some of the oil on > the > >skin? > > Blooming bath oils leave oils on the skin. Basically blooming bath > oils are just oils and emulsifier(s). You could use a blooming bath > oil formula as the oil phase is a scrub. But a scrub based on a > blooming bath oil would still separate and, depending on the packaging, > it could leak. This is what I don't understand. If an anhydrous scrub contains all lipophilic material--liquid oils and solid fats/fatty alcohols, how can it separate? > > I think this discussion of adding emulsifiers to scrubs, goes back to > something I posted under the subject heading " thick salt scrubs " . > > --------------------- > > > > > > > >>what might happen if there was an emulsifier added > >>into the mix? > > > >An interesting thought. I've been playing with this concept for many > >different types of products. > > > >Ideally, if you added a little warm water to the " emulsifier enriched " > >scrub, as in rinsing, your scrub will turn into an emoillient lotion. > >Is that sexy or what? > > > >>Does an emulsifier have to have water present to do it's thing? > > > >If choosen correctly, the emulsifier will be very happy in the scrub. It > >won't " do it's thing " until water is present as in rinsing with warm water. > > > >>The only kind I have ever used is ewax, so I guess it would need to > >>be a liquid unless I heated the oil, but I think it would still come out > >>solid? > > > >EXPERIMENT!!! > > > >Take a look at Angie's scrubs and think and play. > >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SheaScrub > >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SatinScrub > > > >You'll have fun. And this is good. > --------------------- > > Adding emulsifiers to anhydrous scrubs is basically the same thing as > Emulsifying Wax NF and blooming bath oils. > > Choosing the right emulsifier can also thicken the scrubs " oil phase " > to prevent oil separation. > > Based on limited experiments, I prefer using and like the feel of > scrubs with emulsifiers versus a straight blend of oils, waxes and > butter. I definitely agree that the feel of scrubs with an emulsifier is much nicer than straight oils and butter, etc. It's much to greasy without an emulsifier. The part that I'm not getting is the separation. I just can't see it I guess. How do oils separate from one another in an anhydrous scrub? I've done the freeze/thaw stability thing on my scrubs and have some that are a couple of years old and very stable--no separation at all. > > >This is the way I've been doing the scrubs for some time now. I've found > >that polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers or surfactants works > > >fine for this purpose. > > Polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers should work. But > Polysorbate 20 would do little to thicken the scrub. Certainly adding > waxes or butters would help that. When you say surfactant, what types > of surfactants are you referring to. Emulsifiers are surfactants. > When I use the word " emulsifier " I'm thinking " nonionic surfactant " . > Are you thinking of stuff like anionic, amphoteric and cationic > surfactants? > I use a combo of fatty alcohol(s) and butters to thicken the scrub--I've used behentrimonium methosulfate (and) cetearyl alcohol (Conditioning Emulsifier) too. I usually use nonionic surfactants/emulsifiers like polysorbate 20 and I am planning to try Olive Oil PEG 7, but does it really matter? Isn't the functionality the same? When I use polysorbate 20 in the scrub, I add it during cool-down. I've formed what I think of as a self-emulsifier with the polysorbate 20 (or whichever) and the fatty alcohol, etc. > >Also, I know this isn't a question here, but there may be some confusion > >regarding emulsification and scrubs. I get the question all the time about > what > >is needed to " emulsify " the scrub. The scrub itself doesn't need to be > >emulsified to " hold together " because it's anhydrous. > > No it doesn't have to be emulsified to hold together but if it doesn't > contain emulsifiers it won't form an emulsion. I think the use of > emulsifiers in scrubs is just a matter of taste. Right....without the emulsifier, we miss out on the tango ;-) > > Personally, I have found thicken scrubs that contain emulsifiers seem > to be easier to use and leave a nice feeling on the skin. The > thickened scrubs w/o emulsifiers leave an unaesthetic feel on the skin > and are difficult to clean up. > Yup....a greasy mess....more fun to tango. > >The ingredients can simply be > >melted together (minus the salt which is not part of the formula since it's > > >inert). By adjusting the percentages of a liquid oil, solid > oil/fat/lipid/fatty > >alcohol, the scrub can be made as firm or loose as desired. > > ...like a soft lip balm. > > >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SheaScrub > I really need to replace this with one of the new formulas. > > >I usually add > >the polysorbate 20 or whatever to the melted and almost cool scrub, along > with > >the essential oils. > > I'm sure that works. > > >The addition of the emulsifier or surfactant or liquid > >soap is there to improve the feel of the scrub and to allow the anhydrous > scrub > >to emulsify with the water in the shower. > > What do you mean when you say " surfactant or liquid soap " ? Are we > moving away from anhydrous scrubs? > > I have concerns over scrubs that contain water. But that's another > subject. ???? So, when we add an emulsifier/surfactant to an anhydrous scrub is it no longer anhydrous?? I haven't really thought about it this way. > > >So, to me, the ideal would be for > >SOME of the oil to emulsify and be washed away, but not all??? > > Assuming we are talking about using nonionic emulsifiers, I think the > oils would be rinsed away if the nonionic emulsifiers used in the > anhydrous scrub formula solubilized the oils, waxes and butters in your > formula when water is added. > > >Maybe I'm missing something here? > > I don't think so. I think we are looking at the same thing from > different perspectives and maybe using a different language. > > Maurice > I do tend to hear a different drummer sometimes ;-) But, if I'm missing something, please let me know. Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 Hi Maurice, > > > > > >This is what I don't understand. If an anhydrous scrub contains all > >lipophilic material--liquid oils and solid fats/fatty alcohols, how can it > separate? > > > > When the anhydrous scrub isn't thick enough, the salt will separate > from the oils. > Well, sure. I'm so glad to know that's what you meant! That was the problem all along with the drippy-oily ones. The idea has been to make it thick enough with fatty solids to hold the salt. > > > >I definitely agree that the feel of scrubs with an emulsifier is much nicer > > >than straight oils and butter, etc. It's much to greasy without an > emulsifier. > > Good. We agree. Yay! > > >The part that I'm not getting is the separation. I just can't see it I > >guess. How do oils separate from one another in an anhydrous scrub? I've > done > >the freeze/thaw stability thing on my scrubs and have some that are a > couple of > >years old and very stable--no separation at all. > > Failure of communication. The separation I am refering to is the > separation of salt from the oils. OK, good! I thought I had completely missed out on some cosmetic chemistry gossip about how some lipids just can't get along and aren't " speaking to one another " ! > > > >When I use polysorbate 20 in the scrub, I add it during > >cool-down. I've formed what I think of as a self-emulsifier with the > >polysorbate 20 (or whichever) and the fatty alcohol, etc. > > Like adding Polysorbate 60 to Cetearyl Alcohol to make a > self-emulsifying fatty alcohol called Emulsifying Wax NF. Yep....you mean someone else thought of this first? Rats! > > > >???? So, when we add an emulsifier/surfactant to an anhydrous scrub is it > no > >longer anhydrous?? I haven't really thought about it this way. > > If we add an anhydrous emulsifier to an anhydrous scrub formula, the > scrub remains anhydrous. Some surfactants and all liquid soaps contain > water. If you add these ingredients to your anhydrous scrub, your > scrub will no longer be anhydrous. Well, that certainly makes sense! This is something that I really have not thought about, but is obviously a factor that changes the whole formula. I was talking with someone about this recently. The oil/fat based scrub formulas that contain a liquid soap or liquid surfactant (some/most) are no longer anhydrous---duh, silly me.....thanks Maurice! I tend to prefer the anhydrous scrubs too, much less microbial stuff to worry about and then with the added emulsifier we have the best of both worlds > >> > >>>So, to me, the ideal would be for > >>>SOME of the oil to emulsify and be washed away, but not all??? > >> > > > >I do tend to hear a different drummer sometimes ;-) > > That's more fun. ;-) And we might as well have fun while we are here, eh? Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 In a message dated 7/26/03 8:14:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AngiesHerbarie@... writes: > The oil/fat based scrub formulas > that contain a liquid soap or liquid surfactant (some/most) are no longer > anhydrous---duh, silly me.....thanks Maurice! > Well, here I go responding to my own post again! I just had a thought though. What if the oils/fats/fatty alcohols are melted together and cooled into a creamy blend...then a surfactant--one that contains water---is added at cooldown and stirred into the blend....would the surfactant position itself in the mix as an inert sort of ingredient---or will there be some further reaction? Seems like it could sit there until needed in the shower. Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 You've all mentioned various methods of incorporating an emulsifying agent into scrubs for great feel / cleansing / lotion action in rinsing, which I understand and am very interested ... If I want to use a soap as that portion, I have a question ... It seems it wouldn't help to " melt " it down into water ... so could it be " melted " into the oils, or should it just be finely ground and added as is? Also, how could I configure how much by weight would be enough for a lotion-rinsed effect vs. how much would rinse all the scrub " clean " ??? TIA - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 You've all mentioned various methods of incorporating an emulsifying agent into scrubs for great feel / cleansing / lotion action in rinsing, which I understand and am very interested ... If I want to use a soap as that portion, I have a question ... It seems it wouldn't help to " melt " it down into water ... so could it be " melted " into the oils, or should it just be finely ground and added as is? Also, how could I configure how much by weight would be enough for a lotion-rinsed effect vs. how much would rinse all the scrub " clean " ??? TIA - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 >Why completely emulsify the scrub? Why not? But I don't think that you want to solubilize an anhydrous scrub. >It seems to me that if the scrub is >completely emulsified, no oil will be left on the skin. What do you think about >partially emulsifying the scrub and therefore leaving some of the oil on the >skin? Blooming bath oils leave oils on the skin. Basically blooming bath oils are just oils and emulsifier(s). You could use a blooming bath oil formula as the oil phase is a scrub. But a scrub based on a blooming bath oil would still separate and, depending on the packaging, it could leak. I think this discussion of adding emulsifiers to scrubs, goes back to something I posted under the subject heading " thick salt scrubs " . --------------------- > > >> what might happen if there was an emulsifier added >> into the mix? > >An interesting thought. I've been playing with this concept for many >different types of products. > >Ideally, if you added a little warm water to the " emulsifier enriched " >scrub, as in rinsing, your scrub will turn into an emoillient lotion. >Is that sexy or what? > >> Does an emulsifier have to have water present to do it's thing? > >If choosen correctly, the emulsifier will be very happy in the scrub. It >won't " do it's thing " until water is present as in rinsing with warm water. > >> The only kind I have ever used is ewax, so I guess it would need to >> be a liquid unless I heated the oil, but I think it would still come out >> solid? > >EXPERIMENT!!! > >Take a look at Angie's scrubs and think and play. >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SheaScrub >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SatinScrub > >You'll have fun. And this is good. --------------------- Adding emulsifiers to anhydrous scrubs is basically the same thing as Emulsifying Wax NF and blooming bath oils. Choosing the right emulsifier can also thicken the scrubs " oil phase " to prevent oil separation. Based on limited experiments, I prefer using and like the feel of scrubs with emulsifiers versus a straight blend of oils, waxes and butter. >This is the way I've been doing the scrubs for some time now. I've found >that polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers or surfactants works >fine for this purpose. Polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers should work. But Polysorbate 20 would do little to thicken the scrub. Certainly adding waxes or butters would help that. When you say surfactant, what types of surfactants are you referring to. Emulsifiers are surfactants. When I use the word " emulsifier " I'm thinking " nonionic surfactant " . Are you thinking of stuff like anionic, amphoteric and cationic surfactants? >Also, I know this isn't a question here, but there may be some confusion >regarding emulsification and scrubs. I get the question all the time about what >is needed to " emulsify " the scrub. The scrub itself doesn't need to be >emulsified to " hold together " because it's anhydrous. No it doesn't have to be emulsified to hold together but if it doesn't contain emulsifiers it won't form an emulsion. I think the use of emulsifiers in scrubs is just a matter of taste. Personally, I have found thicken scrubs that contain emulsifiers seem to be easier to use and leave a nice feeling on the skin. The thickened scrubs w/o emulsifiers leave an unaesthetic feel on the skin and are difficult to clean up. >The ingredients can simply be >melted together (minus the salt which is not part of the formula since it's >inert). By adjusting the percentages of a liquid oil, solid oil/fat/lipid/fatty >alcohol, the scrub can be made as firm or loose as desired. ....like a soft lip balm. >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SheaScrub >I usually add >the polysorbate 20 or whatever to the melted and almost cool scrub, along with >the essential oils. I'm sure that works. >The addition of the emulsifier or surfactant or liquid >soap is there to improve the feel of the scrub and to allow the anhydrous scrub >to emulsify with the water in the shower. What do you mean when you say " surfactant or liquid soap " ? Are we moving away from anhydrous scrubs? I have concerns over scrubs that contain water. But that's another subject. >So, to me, the ideal would be for >SOME of the oil to emulsify and be washed away, but not all??? Assuming we are talking about using nonionic emulsifiers, I think the oils would be rinsed away if the nonionic emulsifiers used in the anhydrous scrub formula solubilized the oils, waxes and butters in your formula when water is added. >Maybe I'm missing something here? I don't think so. I think we are looking at the same thing from different perspectives and maybe using a different language. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 >> >> >> >Why completely emulsify the scrub? >> >> Why not? But I don't think that you want to solubilize an anhydrous >> scrub. > >An emulsion takes " two to tango " , right? So we can't really form an emulsion >in an anhydrous scrub--can we?? In other words, when I said 'emulsify the >scrub', I was referring to the anhydrous scrub that contains an emulsifier > " doing it's thing " with the water in the shower. > >Why wouldn't I want to solubilize an anhydrous scrub? Because the oils/waxes/butters would rinse right off your skin. >> >> >It seems to me that if the scrub is >> >completely emulsified, no oil will be left on the skin. What do you think >> about >> >partially emulsifying the scrub and therefore leaving some of the oil on >> the >> >skin? >> >> Blooming bath oils leave oils on the skin. Basically blooming bath >> oils are just oils and emulsifier(s). You could use a blooming bath >> oil formula as the oil phase is a scrub. But a scrub based on a >> blooming bath oil would still separate and, depending on the packaging, >> it could leak. > >This is what I don't understand. If an anhydrous scrub contains all >lipophilic material--liquid oils and solid fats/fatty alcohols, how can it separate? > When the anhydrous scrub isn't thick enough, the salt will separate from the oils. >> >> I think this discussion of adding emulsifiers to scrubs, goes back to >> something I posted under the subject heading " thick salt scrubs " . >> >> --------------------- >> >> >> > >> > >> >>what might happen if there was an emulsifier added >> >>into the mix? >> > >> >An interesting thought. I've been playing with this concept for many >> >different types of products. >> > >> >Ideally, if you added a little warm water to the " emulsifier enriched " >> >scrub, as in rinsing, your scrub will turn into an emoillient lotion. >> >Is that sexy or what? >> > >> >>Does an emulsifier have to have water present to do it's thing? >> > >> >If choosen correctly, the emulsifier will be very happy in the scrub. It >> >won't " do it's thing " until water is present as in rinsing with warm water. >> > >> >>The only kind I have ever used is ewax, so I guess it would need to >> >>be a liquid unless I heated the oil, but I think it would still come out >> >>solid? >> > >> >EXPERIMENT!!! >> > >> >Take a look at Angie's scrubs and think and play. >> >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SheaScrub >> >http://www.theherbarie.com/herbarie-formulary.html#SatinScrub >> > >> >You'll have fun. And this is good. >> --------------------- >> >> Adding emulsifiers to anhydrous scrubs is basically the same thing as >> Emulsifying Wax NF and blooming bath oils. >> >> Choosing the right emulsifier can also thicken the scrubs " oil phase " >> to prevent oil separation. >> >> Based on limited experiments, I prefer using and like the feel of >> scrubs with emulsifiers versus a straight blend of oils, waxes and >> butter. > >I definitely agree that the feel of scrubs with an emulsifier is much nicer >than straight oils and butter, etc. It's much to greasy without an emulsifier. Good. We agree. > The part that I'm not getting is the separation. I just can't see it I >guess. How do oils separate from one another in an anhydrous scrub? I've done >the freeze/thaw stability thing on my scrubs and have some that are a couple of >years old and very stable--no separation at all. Failure of communication. The separation I am refering to is the separation of salt from the oils. >> >> >This is the way I've been doing the scrubs for some time now. I've found >> >that polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers or surfactants works >> >> >fine for this purpose. >> >> Polysorbate 20 or any of the high HLB emulsifiers should work. But >> Polysorbate 20 would do little to thicken the scrub. Certainly adding >> waxes or butters would help that. When you say surfactant, what types >> of surfactants are you referring to. Emulsifiers are surfactants. >> When I use the word " emulsifier " I'm thinking " nonionic surfactant " . >> Are you thinking of stuff like anionic, amphoteric and cationic >> surfactants? > > >I use a combo of fatty alcohol(s) and butters to thicken the scrub--I've used >behentrimonium methosulfate (and) cetearyl alcohol (Conditioning Emulsifier) >too. I usually use nonionic surfactants/emulsifiers like polysorbate 20 and I >am planning to try Olive Oil PEG 7, but does it really matter? Isn't the >functionality the same? Its a matter of perspective. There are any number of emulsifiers that would be effective in emulsifying an anhydrous scrub. If effectiveness (aka functionality) is the goal, then it really doesn't matter. If you want something that is effective and efficient, then it does matter. When I formulate products, my goal is to create products that are effective and efficient. > When I use polysorbate 20 in the scrub, I add it during >cool-down. I've formed what I think of as a self-emulsifier with the >polysorbate 20 (or whichever) and the fatty alcohol, etc. Like adding Polysorbate 60 to Cetearyl Alcohol to make a self-emulsifying fatty alcohol called Emulsifying Wax NF. > >The addition of the emulsifier or surfactant or liquid > >soap is there to improve the feel of the scrub and to allow the anhydrous > scrub > >to emulsify with the water in the shower. > > What do you mean when you say " surfactant or liquid soap " ? Are we > moving away from anhydrous scrubs? > >> I have concerns over scrubs that contain water. But that's another >> subject. > >???? So, when we add an emulsifier/surfactant to an anhydrous scrub is it no >longer anhydrous?? I haven't really thought about it this way. If we add an anhydrous emulsifier to an anhydrous scrub formula, the scrub remains anhydrous. Some surfactants and all liquid soaps contain water. If you add these ingredients to your anhydrous scrub, your scrub will no longer be anhydrous. >> >> >So, to me, the ideal would be for >> >SOME of the oil to emulsify and be washed away, but not all??? >> > >I do tend to hear a different drummer sometimes ;-) That's more fun. ;-) Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 In a message dated 7/27/2003 10:10:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, maurice@... writes: > > > >Maurice, I have some of the Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate in the > >butter/paste form. If this does not contain water, > > Are you using Taurinol I-78-6? > http://www.finetexinc.com/TAURANOL%20I-78-6.html > > This is a 50% active material in a glycol of some sort. > > >and I wanted to > >incorporate it into an anhydrous scrub, would I put all the > >oil/fats/fatty alcohols in together with the surfactant and heat them as > >one until everything was melted? > > I would heat the oils/waxes/butters and then add the Sodium Cocoyl > Isethionate slowly to see what happens. If you are using Taurinol I-78-6, then I > expect some unknown > results when the glycols are mixed with the oils/butters/waxes. > > >And are there any particular fatty > >alcohols and/or emulsifiers that I might expect to have the kind of > >dynamic reaction you were mentioning and that I should consider > >avoiding? > > If heated and stirred until homogeneous you shouldn't have any problem. In > Angie's example, she was adding the surfactant during the cool down. > > Heat will accelerate any reactions. > > Maurice > > Hi and Maurice, , I thought I would just respond here since it's confusing for me to go back and forth between emails ...I thought that you had initially tried heating the surfactants with the oils/fats and it didn't work either time---with the SCI Pearl or the Cocobetaine Blend which contains a lactylate. I haven't tried either one in a scrub of this type with a high percentage of fatty alcohols and to be honest, instinctively don't really like the idea. I know you want some foaming action in your scrub, but even if you could get some sort of emulsion to happen, it seems like the high % fatty alcohols/oils and the high % surfactant are just " fighting " each other in terms of functionality. Here is what I can envision ......... to make an anhydrous scrub with one of the emulsifiers or self-emulsifiers that we were discussing--like the formula that I sent to you.....OR to make a scrub that is clearly a water-soluble/surfactant one. I've got some folks that use crothix, UltraMaize and other ingredients that are known to be very compatible with surfactants and will thicken into a scrub consistency. You could take the formulas from my last newsletter that Pam Ingle and ita contributed and come up with something that would work. Pam's formula is creamy and has had rave reviews. And this is more of a cleansing scrub like I believe you are going for. I really should have thought to mention it before now. My own preference for a scrub is to make it anhydrous with a touch of emulsifier/self-emulsifier and end up with an emollient scrub. But neither is right or wrong...just two different approaches and different products. If you want to see the formulas, let me know and I'll post them...or Pam can post hers....let me know Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 >What if the oils/fats/fatty alcohols are melted together and cooled into a >creamy blend...then a surfactant--one that contains water---is added at >cooldown and stirred into the blend....would the surfactant position itself in the >mix as an inert sort of ingredient---or will there be some further reaction? When I think about creating a product, I try to do everything I can to make sure that the product is homogeneous and that any chemistry that going to occur will occur in the beaker not in the bottle or jar. A surfactant molecule has a lipophilic part and a hydrophilic part. When a surfactant is added to the oils/fats/fatty alcohols during the cooldown, the lipophilic protion of the surfactant molecules would begin to orient itself into the oils/fats/fatty alcohols. This is a dynamic reaction and will probably continue as this product continues to age. I think it would be difficult to make the exact product twice unless you have some rigorous controls on the process. I would combine the oils/fats/fatty alcohols with the surfactant when everything is melted. That way any changes that are going to occur will occur in my beaker under my control. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 >When I think about creating a product, I try to do everything I can to make sure that the product is homogeneous and that any chemistry that going to occur will occur in the >beaker not in the bottle or jar. > >A surfactant molecule has a lipophilic part and a hydrophilic part. When a surfactant is added to the oils/fats/fatty alcohols during the cooldown, the lipophilic protion of the >surfactant molecules would begin to orient itself into the oils/fats/fatty alcohols. This is a dynamic reaction and will probably continue as this product continues to age. > >I think it would be difficult to make the exact product twice unless you have some rigorous controls on the process. > >I would combine the oils/fats/fatty alcohols with the surfactant when everything is melted. That way any changes that are going to occur will occur in my beaker under my >control. When I was writting this, I was thing of " a surfactant--one that contains water " . Because of the water, I think this would be kinda messy to make and use. This is just a guess. It would be interesting to use anionic/amphoteric surfactants without water. I'm thinking of surfactants like Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate, or a high active betaine. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 >If I want to use a soap as that portion, I have a question ... >It seems it wouldn't help to " melt " it down into water ... so could it be > " melted " into the oils, or should it just be finely ground and added as is? I'd try it both ways. >Also, how could I configure how much by weight would be enough for a lotion-rinsed >effect vs. how much would rinse all the scrub " clean " ??? Trial and error. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Maurice, I have some of the Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate in the butter/paste form. If this does not contain water, and I wanted to incorporate it into an anhydrous scrub, would I put all the oil/fats/fatty alcohols in together with the surfactant and heat them as one until everything was melted? And are there any particular fatty alcohols and/or emulsifiers that I might expect to have the kind of dynamic reaction you were mentioning and that I should consider avoiding? Thanks, -----Original Message----- > >I would combine the oils/fats/fatty alcohols with the surfactant when >everything is melted. That way any changes that are going to occur will occur in my beaker under my >control. When I was writting this, I was thing of " a surfactant--one that contains water " . Because of the water, I think this would be kinda messy to make and use. This is just a guess. It would be interesting to use anionic/amphoteric surfactants without water. I'm thinking of surfactants like Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate, or a high active betaine. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 >Maurice, I have some of the Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate in the >butter/paste form. If this does not contain water, Are you using Taurinol I-78-6? http://www.finetexinc.com/TAURANOL%20I-78-6.html This is a 50% active material in a glycol of some sort. >and I wanted to >incorporate it into an anhydrous scrub, would I put all the >oil/fats/fatty alcohols in together with the surfactant and heat them as >one until everything was melted? I would heat the oils/waxes/butters and then add the Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate slowly to see what happens. If you are using Taurinol I-78-6, then I expect some unknown results when the glycols are mixed with the oils/butters/waxes. > And are there any particular fatty >alcohols and/or emulsifiers that I might expect to have the kind of >dynamic reaction you were mentioning and that I should consider >avoiding? If heated and stirred until homogeneous you shouldn't have any problem. In Angie's example, she was adding the surfactant during the cool down. Heat will accelerate any reactions. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2003 Report Share Posted July 27, 2003 Maurice, would this formula emulsify all of the oils? I would think you would only want to emulsify some of the oils in order to leave a very thin layer on your skin after you use the scrub....???? Yes? No? > So now, our formula looks like > > Cetearyl Alcohol = 11.25 % > Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % > Polysorbate 20 = 5 % > Sweet Almond Oil = 34 % > Shea Butter = 34 % > Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % > Phenonip = 0.5 % > Polysorbate 60 = 3.75 % > > Total Weight = 100 % > > and our oil phase consist of > > 11.25% Cetearyl Alcohol > 10% Cetyl Alcohol > 34% Sweet Almond Oil > 34% Shea Butter > > Then total amount of oils in our Oil Phase = 89.25% > > To calculate the required HLB of our Oil Phase, we must calculate the composition > of our Oil Phase in terms of percentage. > > But we already know that the total amount of oils in our Oil Phase = 89.25% > Therefore we can say that 89.25% of our formula = 100% of the Oil Phase, > > > If 89.25% = 100% > and 11.25% = X % > then X = (100 X 11.25) / 89.25 > X = 1125 / 89.25 > X = 12.61% > Therefore Cetearyl Alcohol is 12.61% of the oil phase. > > If 89.25% = 100% > and 10% = X % > then X = (100 X 10) / 89.25 > X = 1000 / 89.25 > X = 11.2% > and Cetyl Alcohol is 11.2% of the oil phase. > > If 89.25% = 100% > and 34% = X % > then X = (100 X 34) / 89.25 > X = 3400 / 89.25 > X = 38.1% > and Sweet Almond Oil is 38.1% of the oil phase. > > If 89.25% = 100% > and 34% = X % > then X = (100 X 34) / 89.25 > X = 3400 / 89.25 > X = 38.1% > and Shea Butter is 38.1% of the oil phase. > > So now, we can say > > Cetearyl Alcohol = 11.25% of the formula and 12.61% of the oil phase. > Cetyl Alcohol = 10% of the formula and 11.2% of the oil phase. > Sweet Almond Oil = 34% of the formula and 38.1% of the oil phase. > Shea Butter = 34% of the formula and 38.1% of the oil phase. > > But we also know or have assumed that > > the required HLB of Cetearyl Alcohol is 15.5 > the required HLB of Cetyl Alcohol is 15.5 > the required HLB of Sweet Almond Oil is 7 > the required HLB of Shea Butter is 8 > > To calculate the required HLB of the Oil Phase, we multiply the percentage of each > oil in the Oil Phase by its respective required HLB and sum the results. > > (12.61/100) X 15.5 = 0.1261 X 15.5 = 1.95 > (11.2/100) X 15.5 = 0.112 X 15.5 = 1.74 > (38.1/100) X 7 = 0.381 X 7 = 2.67 > (38.1/100) X 8 = 0.381 X 8 = 3.05 > > The required HLB of our oil phase is the sum of these numbers or 9.4 > > Polysorbate 20 has a HLB of 16.7 and the HLB of Polysorbate 60 is 14.9. It will be impossible to match the required HLB of your Oil Phase (9.4) with two high HLB > emulsifiers like Polysorbate 20 and Polysorbate 60. > > You'll need a low HLB emulsifier like Glyceryl Stearate. > > we know that > > Glyceryl Stearate has a HLB of 3.8 and > Polysorbate 60 has a HLB of 14.9 > > and > > 49.51% X 3.8 + 50.49% X 14.9 = > 0.4951 X 3.8 + 0.5049 X 14.9 = > 1.88 + 7.52 = 9.4 > > Therefore, an emulsifying system that contains > > 49.51% Glyceryl Stearate and > 50.49% Polysorbate 60 > > will have a HLB of 9.4 > > So if you want your emulsion to contain 7.45% emulsifier, you will need > > 49.51% X 7.45 = 0.5 X 7.45 = 3.69% Glyceryl Stearate > 50.49% X 7.45 = 0.5 X 7.45 = 3.76% Polysorbate 60 > > I think your formula should look like this > > Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % > Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % > Gyceryl Stearate = 3.7 % > Sweet Almond Oil = 34.65 % > Shea Butter = 34.65 % > Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % > Phenonip = 0.5 % > > If that formula is too stiff or hard, you may want to increase the oils or you could even go to a " liquid " low HLB emulsifier like Sorbitan Stearate which has a HLB of 4.3. > > If you use Sorbitan Stearate, the formula will look like this: > > Emulsifying Wax NF = 15 % > Cetyl Alcohol = 10 % > Sorbitan Oleate = 4 % > Sweet Almond Oil = 34.5 % > Shea Butter = 34.5 % > Essential Oil(s) = 1.5 % > Phenonip = 0.5 % > > Good luck and let us know what happens. > > Maurice > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Maurice O. Hevey > Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. > http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Post message: Cosmeticinfo > Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo > Unsubscribe: Cosmeticinfo-unsubscribe > List owner: Cosmeticinfo-owner > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 In a message dated 7/27/03 6:41:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cathy2@... writes: > Maurice, would this formula emulsify all of the oils? I would think you > would only want to emulsify some of the oils in order to leave a very thin > layer on your skin after you use the scrub....???? Yes? No? > > > Hi , You and I are thinking alike again That was my question too. I know what you mean...but Maurice says it makes no difference. I do know that when I use polysorbate 20 in my own scrubs, I can vary the amount of oil/greasiness left on the skin by varying the amount of polysorbate 20 in the scrub. But I always add the polysorbate 20 to the melted and cooled creamy scrub----the same time I add the essential oils. Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 >Maurice, would this formula emulsify all of the oils? I would think you >would only want to emulsify some of the oils in order to leave a very thin >layer on your skin after you use the scrub....???? Yes? No? Yes Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 In a message dated 7/27/03 6:28:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, maurice@... writes: > When I was writting this, I was thing of " a surfactant--one that contains > water " . Because of the water, I think this would be kinda messy to make and > use. This is just a guess. > > It would be interesting to use anionic/amphoteric surfactants without > water. I'm thinking of surfactants like Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Lauryl > Sulfoacetate, or a high > active betaine. > > Maurice Hi Maurice and All, If I can get a few spare moments today, I'd like to do a bit of playing with this idea. I feel pretty confident that SCI or any other surfactant that doesn't contain water would work fine in this formulation. But as I mentioned in an earlier email, I just instinctively don't like the idea of using a high % of cleansing surfactant with a high % of oils/lipids---the " functionality fighting " thing. Maybe I'm just seeing things in a weird way, but it seems like there should be two different products, two different functionalities. One for cleansing/sudsing/exfolliating and one for exfolliating/emolliency. Even though, I don't like the IDEA of an anhydrous scrub with a huge slug of surfactant, I'm going to try it just to see what happens. Now, I've seen some commercial scrubs that use a surfactant, carbomer and some inert pumice type ingredient. These obviously have water in them and are gel-like. These make sense to me. I think this could be made also with some combo of crothix or UltraMaize (Structure XL) and almost any of the surfactants out there....or liquid soap probably. Another cleansing scrub could easily be a modification of Pam Ingle's formula--Ginger's Facial Cleanser. I'll post it again (Pam, you don't mind do you so that folks can see what we are talking about.  Any other thoughts out there? Angie Ginger's Thick & Creamy Facial Cleanser Phase 1 Emulsifiers & Surfactants Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI Noodles) 36% = 180 grams Polyfactant DLS Blend 22% = 110 grams Behenyl Alcohol 1% = 5 grams Stearic Acid 2% = 10 grams Glyceryl Stearate 2% = 10 grams PEG 7 Olive Oil Ester 2% = 10 grams Crothix 1.6 % = 8 grams Phase 2 Water Portion *Distilled Water 23.2% = 116 grams Glycerin 5% = 25 grams Sodium Chloride (Sea Salt) 0.8 % = 4 grams VenaSilk 1 % = 5 grams Hydrolyzed Oats 2 % = 10 grams **Fragrance or Essential Oils 1% = 5 grams Liquid Germall Plus 0.4% = 2 grams Total 100% = 500 grams Procedure: Phase 1: Emulsifiers and Surfactants Ingredients for Phase 1 in top of double boiler and heat over boiling water. to 176F/80C, stirring as required. Hold temperature for 15-20 minutes, or " noodles " are completely melted, stirring as required. Phase 2: Water Phase Combine VenaSilk with Glycerin, until dissolved, then add water, salt, & hydrolized oats. Stir well, and heat to 176F/180C. Mix phase 1 and phase 2 ingredients and reheat to 176F/80C. Phase 3: Cool Down: Stir mixture as it begins to cool. When temperature falls below 120 F, add preservative, and fragrance and stir with stick blender. Allow to cool to room temperature. May be packaged in jars or squeeze tubes. * Substitute an herbal infusion, hydrosol, or aloe vera juice for part or all of the distilled water. ** Suggestions for essential oil blends:        Lemon Myrtle & Geranium        Lavender, Balsam Fir Needle, Patchouli, Palmarosa & Geranium        Peppermint & Rosemary. *This version will make a VERY thick creme cleanser. For a less dense product, decrease the surfactants by 4% each, and increase water by 8%. The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 In a message dated 7/28/03 7:19:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, maurice@... writes: > If you remove the " scrubbies " , you could have an emollient body > conditioner. > Maurice, You and I are on the same wavelength, darlin'  Only for my body conditioner I'm using the Conditioning Emulsifier...it's so hard to beat! Actually, I'm planning on putting the formula in the next newsletter! I'll be honest, it's pretty much the same as hair conditioner only a bit heavier on the emollients. As far as scrubs go....I've run out of my " morning playtime " , but I had enough time to do a re-make of Pam's cleanser and it works beautifully with the SCI Pearl--I 78-6--sodium cocoyl isethionate. I used cocamidopropyl in place of the Polyfactant DLS. I also added some cetyl alcohol, omitted the salt and used jojoba spheres--could use pumice or some other inert ingredient. Obviously this has water in it, but for those who want a cleansing scrub with surfactants and water...this could be it. If I have any more free time later today, I'm going to do the anhydrous scrub with the SCI Noodles (ground up). I also have some other surfactants (powdered betaine) that I may try. As always, lots of ideas and so little time. Have a great day! Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 In a message dated 7/28/03 9:08:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cathy2@... writes: > Angie > I made a peppermint foot scrub with SCI noodles, salt, polysorbate 20 and > E-wax along with the regular oils and cocoa and shea butter. I packaged it > with a peppermint /menthol foot cream. It was a hit. I sold out of my 20 > sets in about an hour. You really have to rub though to get those noodles to > lather in a scrub. It works though...the noodles form part of the scrubby > part until they begin to dissolve in the H2O. > > > Hi , Perfect!! I figured the SCI Noodles would work that way--good job! I am so glad you shared this--thanks so much! Now I can work on something else Angie The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 >Maybe I'm just seeing things in a weird way, but it seems like >there should be two different products, two different functionalities. One for >cleansing/sudsing/exfolliating and one for exfolliating/emolliency. >....so why not body conditioner? Maybe we can start a new trend! If you remove the " scrubbies " , you could have an emollient body conditioner. Maurice -------------------------------------------------------- Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Angie I made a peppermint foot scrub with SCI noodles, salt, polysorbate 20 and E-wax along with the regular oils and cocoa and shea butter. I packaged it with a peppermint /menthol foot cream. It was a hit. I sold out of my 20 sets in about an hour. You really have to rub though to get those noodles to lather in a scrub. It works though...the noodles form part of the scrubby part until they begin to dissolve in the H2O. ------ As far as scrubs go....I've run out of my " morning playtime " , but I had enough time to do a re-make of Pam's cleanser and it works beautifully with the SCI Pearl--I 78-6--sodium cocoyl isethionate. I used cocamidopropyl in place of the Polyfactant DLS. I also added some cetyl alcohol, omitted the salt and used jojoba spheres--could use pumice or some other inert ingredient. Obviously this has water in it, but for those who want a cleansing scrub with surfactants and water...this could be it. If I have any more free time later today, I'm going to do the anhydrous scrub with the SCI Noodles (ground up). I also have some other surfactants (powdered betaine) that I may try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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