Re: Help! Angie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/29/03 2:40:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

sandra_labossiere@... writes:

>

> Hi Angie,

> I am hoping you can help me with this one. I decided to try using

> the incroquat behenyl or conditioning emusifier. Tonight I

> incorporated it into a lotion formula that I have been using for a

> long time. I did everything else the same. I mixed the emulsifier

> into the oil phase and heated it to 75 degrees. It was thoroughly

> melted. When I started to add it to my heated water phase, it

> curdled. I kept mixing with the hand blender and that problem did

> clear up pretty quick, but it became very thick, very rapidly. That

> was fine. But when I tested a few drops between my fingertips, there

> was an almost imperceptible graininess in the lotion. I went to

> croda's site and looked at their prototype formulas and it said to

> hold the heat for 15 minutes after mixing the first 2 phases. I

> decided to try reheating the batch and holding the heat and it seems

> to be better.I should mention, one other new addition to this

> formula was Crodarom Avocadin HS-80 at 1% in the oil phase. (Could

> this interfere with a Cationic emulsifier?)

> My questions are... with this emulsifier,is the initial curdling

> normal when the 2 phases are intermixed and have you ever had

> problems with the graininess? Croda does not mention why the heat

> needs to be held for 15 minutes. Can you enlighten me on this one?

> Or possibly Maurice or ?

> I absolutely love the look and feel of this lotion, and am hoping I

> can keep using the conditioning emulsifier, but I use pretty

> expensive ingredients in this formula and can't afford to be dumping

> it if it's going to be complicated to use.

> Thanks for any insight any of you can provide.

>

> Labossiere

>

Hi ,

Since the Conditioning Emulsifier (behentrimonium methosulfate (and) cetearyl

alcohol) is cationic, you are right, it may have some problems when used with

anionic emulsifiers/surfactants. The Crodarom Avocadin HS 80 shouldn't be a

problem though. I have the tech sheets and don't see anything on there that

would lead me to believe there could be a problem. What other emulsifiers did

you use? My thought is that it has to be one of the other ingredients in your

formula.

I've been using the CE for a long time and what you describe is certainly not

typical. I never heat and hold the oil phase for 15 minutes. I heat my water

phase and hold it constant for 20 minutes or so and then when the time is up,

I melt my oil phase (the temp naturally is around 175-180F at this

point)---no holding the heat constant at all. I do add the water to my oil phase

though...but that shouldn't make a big difference. The only thing I can think

of is

an incompatible ingredient. Let me know the other ingredients that you are

using.

I know it's frustrating when these things happen!

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/29/03 12:45:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

sandra_labossiere@... writes:

> This is the oil phase I did last night: by weight of batch

> 10% Blend of Camellia, Jojoba and Sesame Oil

> 1% Avocado Sterols

> 1% Mixed Tocopherols

> 1.5% Polawax

> 2.5% Incroquat Behenyl

> 1% Cetyl Alcohol

> 1% Stearic Acid

> 1% Titanium Dioxide

>

> I heated to 75 degrees celcius. And added it to my heated water

> phase, which is a usual type water phase consisting of distilled

> water, aloe vera, honey, glycerin, oat protein and colloidal

> oatmeal. Nothing unusual. Fortunately, all the expensive stuff I

> use goes in after emulsion is at 50 degrees and I never got that far.

> I noticed one of your recipes has both Polawax and the CE so decided

> to do this as I thought it might produce a more stable emulsion. Can

> I use the CE on it's own with Cetyl Alcohol as a stabilizer?

> Croda suggests holding the temp of the emulsion itself at 75 celsius

> for 15 minutes. The only lotion formulas they have that recommend

> this are the ones with the Inroquat Behenyl TMS-50. I just realized

> as I am typing, that my emulsifier is slightly different than yours,

> You have the Behentrimonium Methosulphate and Cetearyl Alcohol, Mine

> is Behentrimonium Methosulphate and Cetyl Alcohol and Butylene

> Glycol. It's their newest one. It doesn't seem to me that it should

> make a huge difference what the solvents are as they are both fatty

> alcohols unless ...the butylene glycol???

> This emulsifier is highly recommended by Croda for lotions.

> I hope I can sort this out. I can't believe what a beautiful skin

> feel this lotion has and really want to keep using it if I can.

> Should I just drop the Polawax and use the other on it's own?

> Thank you so much for your help so far!!

>

>

Hi ,

Here is the data sheet for both products:

<A

HREF= " http://www.crodausa.com/datasheets/IncroquatBehenylTMSDS-174.pdf " >http://w\

ww.crodausa.com/datasheets/IncroquatBehenylTMSDS-174.pdf</A>

There does not appear to me to be a significant difference in the

two...nothing to require a difference in your compounding procedure or

compatibility with

other ingredients. You are right, either of these ingredients are

hard-to-beat for elegant lotions and creams and will make about the best hair

conditioner.....they are great products! I see on this datasheet, Croda does

recommend

holding the temp. constant for 15 minutes. I've not seen this recommendation

before and it's not in their big printed formulary, although they very well

may have other online formulas that do recommend doing so. I've used the BTMS

(Conditioning Emulsifier) in sooo many different formulas for quite a while and

I've never held the heat constant and I've never had any curdling problem or

problem with stability. Unless you try to use anionic

surfactants/emulsifiers....like our NatraMulse, with the cationic BTMS---not

always a good idea. I've

successfully made very nice and also stable lotions combining these two

excellent emulsifiers, but I have changed my thinking about recommending their

use

together. It can create problems. But you don't have anything anionic in

your mix, do you? I don't know anything about butylene glycol and have not

worked with titanium oxide and can't afford the Avocadin HS-80

My guess is that you may need to use 1) more of the BTMS-50 and/or the

polawax OR 2) decrease your oils/fatty alcohols OR 3) add some glyceryl stearate

or

other low HLB emulsifier. Some people use the BTMS as a secondary emulsifier,

but I've not found it necessary to use anything else. I have one formula for

cream with 6% Emulsifying Conditioner, 14% Shea Butter, 4% Jojoba, 1%

tocopherols, 1% lavender eo, the remaining percentage in water-solubles. This

cream

is two years old and absolutely stable (I keep sample batches of all formulas

I don't usually add any additional fatty alcohols or stearic acid to a

self-emulsifier, I don't think you need them. To my way of thinking the

additional fatty alcohol tips the HLB scale in the wrong direction. If it were

me, I

would try increasing the % of the polawax and the BTMS-50, do not hold the

heat constant and see what happens....make a small batch!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>

> I've been using the CE for a long time and what you describe is

certainly not

> typical. I never heat and hold the oil phase for 15 minutes.

The only thing I can think of is

> an incompatible ingredient. Let me know the other ingredients

that you are

> using.

>

This is the oil phase I did last night: by weight of batch

10% Blend of Camellia, Jojoba and Sesame Oil

1% Avocado Sterols

1% Mixed Tocopherols

1.5% Polawax

2.5% Incroquat Behenyl

1% Cetyl Alcohol

1% Stearic Acid

1% Titanium Dioxide

I heated to 75 degrees celcius. And added it to my heated water

phase, which is a usual type water phase consisting of distilled

water, aloe vera, honey, glycerin, oat protein and colloidal

oatmeal. Nothing unusual. Fortunately, all the expensive stuff I

use goes in after emulsion is at 50 degrees and I never got that far.

I noticed one of your recipes has both Polawax and the CE so decided

to do this as I thought it might produce a more stable emulsion. Can

I use the CE on it's own with Cetyl Alcohol as a stabilizer?

Croda suggests holding the temp of the emulsion itself at 75 celsius

for 15 minutes. The only lotion formulas they have that recommend

this are the ones with the Inroquat Behenyl TMS-50. I just realized

as I am typing, that my emulsifier is slightly different than yours,

You have the Behentrimonium Methosulphate and Cetearyl Alcohol, Mine

is Behentrimonium Methosulphate and Cetyl Alcohol and Butylene

Glycol. It's their newest one. It doesn't seem to me that it should

make a huge difference what the solvents are as they are both fatty

alcohols unless ...the butylene glycol???

This emulsifier is highly recommended by Croda for lotions.

I hope I can sort this out. I can't believe what a beautiful skin

feel this lotion has and really want to keep using it if I can.

Should I just drop the Polawax and use the other on it's own?

Thank you so much for your help so far!!

[Guest guest]

>

> but I've not found it necessary to use anything else.

> cream with 6% Emulsifying Conditioner, 14% Shea Butter, 4% Jojoba,

1%

> tocopherols, 1% lavender eo, the remaining percentage in water-

solubles. This cream

> is two years old and absolutely stable (I keep sample batches of

all formulas

This is what I needed to hear.

> I don't usually add any additional fatty alcohols or stearic

acid to a

> self-emulsifier, I don't think you need them. To my way of

thinking the

> additional fatty alcohol tips the HLB scale in the wrong direction.

I was basing this on croda's prototype where they have 5% fatty

alcohol along with 2.5% of the emusifier. I assumed it was to

provide stability, but if you have had success without that

addition, I think I'll go that route. I am wanting this to be a

fairly light emulsion as it is for the face. I only ever added the

stearic acid for body, but it is obviously not needed with the BTMS!

This stuff looks like Marshmallow Cream!

If it were me, I

> would try increasing the % of the polawax and the BTMS-50,

I think this is what I will do. But based on your information, I am

going to leave out the Polawax and increase the BTMS. I also think I

am going to skip the Avocadin HS-80. I have a strong suspicion,

that's where the graininess came from. I have the Avocadin and

experimented with that and had problems. I had a terrible time

getting it to melt. I am working with a sample right now. You

indicate this is very expensive. This moisturizer is already a

little bit over the top in ingredients and am trying to keep the

retail price respectable. It's hard to resist tho as this stuff is

almost pure phytosterols.

Thanks Angie, so much, for your help! I'll keep you posted.

Labossiere

About Face Skin Therapy

[Guest guest]

,

I suspect the problem is with the avocado sterols......they are very

difficult to melt, (ask me how I know, LOL) but are worth the effort.

Pam

>

> >

> > I've been using the CE for a long time and what you describe is

> certainly not

> > typical. I never heat and hold the oil phase for 15 minutes.

> The only thing I can think of is

> > an incompatible ingredient. Let me know the other ingredients

> that you are

> > using.

> >

>

> This is the oil phase I did last night: by weight of batch

> 10% Blend of Camellia, Jojoba and Sesame Oil

> 1% Avocado Sterols

> 1% Mixed Tocopherols

> 1.5% Polawax

> 2.5% Incroquat Behenyl

> 1% Cetyl Alcohol

> 1% Stearic Acid

> 1% Titanium Dioxide

[Guest guest]

> ,

> I suspect the problem is with the avocado sterols......they are

very

> difficult to melt, (ask me how I know, LOL) but are worth the

effort.

>

> Pam

Hi Pam!

I knew it. At least as far as the graininess is concerned. It was

more of a gut feeing than anything solid. Other than my first and

only experience with the reguar Avocadin. When I tried I had a

terrible time getting it to melt. I would love to hear about your

experiences with this ingredient. Have you used both the Avocadin

and the Avocadin HS-80? Did you find a method that works?

Thanyou so much for your input.

[Guest guest]

,

I've only use the Avocadin HS-80 (sniff) and my sample is almost used up.

Normally I melt my oils & emulsifyers over boiling water, but this just

didn't work. I eventually put it in a pan directly on the burner, with a

1/4 the oils. After it melted, I gradually added the remainder of the oils

and the emulsifiers.

HTH,

Pam

> Have you used both the Avocadin

> and the Avocadin HS-80? Did you find a method that works?

> Thanyou so much for your input.

>

>

>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I know you discovered the problem with your lotion was the Avocadin sterols,

but I wanted to follow up on the BTMS issues we discussed. I finally spoke

with someone at Croda about the BTMS and BTMS-50. She said the recommendation to

hold the heat constant after the two phases are combined really only applies

to large production/large vats...but it isn't necessary for homecrafters like

us. It's of course important that all the ingredients reach the proper temp,

etc.

I also discussed stability with her regarding the BTMS (Conditioning

Emulsifier) and the BTMS-50. She said that no other emulsification system is

needed

and she would guess the BTMS can hold up to 20% oils. The activity of the BTMS

is 50% greater, but the viscosity of the BTMS-50 is not as great as the BTMS,

so she said you may want to add 0.5 - 1.0% fatty alcohol to make the BTMS-50

thicker. It's not necessary with the BTMS (Conditioning Emulsifier) unless

someone just wants to include it. In the formulations where BTMS is used with

Polawax, they consider the polawax to be the emulsifier and the BTMS is there

for conditioning. I asked her if there is any reason the BTMS shouldn't be

used as the sole emulsification system and she said no.

Out of all the emulsifiers, the BTMS (Conditioning Emulsifier) is my favorite

and I'm so glad you like it too! I haven't tried it with the new

dimethicone copolyol yet, but I'm guessing it will make a wonderfully silky and

elegant

lotion or cream! I'll add a little of the hydrolyzed oats or perhaps one of

the new botanical complexes....my favorite oils....I can't wait! During my

week " off " , I hope to have some free time to " play " with new stuff!

Anyhow, just wanted to report back with the info.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com