RE: Not so Fast! Conversion in the kidneys T- DHT (re Laurel # 4391)

[Guest guest]

Pat wrote:

These issues are best resolved not with a

literature

search but with proper individualized testing.

But under these conditions women are not

going to all post their results.

Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.

Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was

rock bottom.

I will share some. That was Liz and

she doesn’t report sore kidneys. I’ve never heard her talk

about sore kidneys. She has very different symptoms from LJ and me and

others who report sore kidneys and the neurological effects. I don’t

think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported anxiety. Maybe she

will jump in with her symptoms. She and some others had a similar

pattern.

I admire pattern watching as a method for

pre-science. There are midwifes in the world who never test a damn thing.

They can tell where the baby is located in the birth canal just by looking at

the skin in the crack of the mother’s butt. They never stick their

hand inside the mother and invade. That is considered vulgar.

Intense attunement is the mark of a good midwife in some cultures.

There are so many things to be

sensed. Clusters tell us something. Watching for clusters and

patterns is a very feminine method of taking in the world. You are in a

circle of women here. Please do not devalue this. Women work best when

we help each other hear our inner voice. That is an old tradition.

But I will not dismiss all testing.

I just do not consider it the only trick in my witchy bag.

This isn’t WP, but it does show Testosterone

My saliva test from 6/17/2004 – I did

the test according to specs from ZRT.

I was on carefully measured 2.5% OTC

progesterone prescribed by my Doc at the time and the pharmacist thought was

good quality. This was day 20.

E=3.2 (ok) P=7584 (H) T=133

(H) DHEA< 2.5(L)

I stopped the P and got on the WP in Sept ’03

– it was considered the great panacea and none of us had to get testing

to start. Still, I’m not convinced testing tells the whole story.

It is a glimmer.

I got on the WP and on my own I did saliva

cortisol. It was day 4 (sort of - my cycle was goofed up) I had bad

allergies that day. AM 4.4 (ok) Noon 2.8 (ok) 4pm 3.4 (H – I went

too long without food cause I didn’t’ want food in my mouth for the

test when I should have had a snack) night .8 (ok) When I am

P overdosed the wave from the P washes into my E phase for about a week or so

depending on how deep I was into the protocol. The androgen inspired

pimples are the clue. I don’t see the elevated C in this test even

though I felt clobbered by the P from the cycle before.

I had a thyroid test recently which indicated to me that I had to

pull back on my thyroid even more. I did the test because I felt the need

to test. I sensed that I could use less. My dose is lower than it has

been in years. Something to learn there. I mark it in my mind for

further questioning.

The biggest clue of all here is that for some of us E works and it

works very well while we are detoxing.. Even if no one could ever explain

it. E works. We aren’t sick. And we are standing up to

an amazing amount of abuse and we aren’t falling apart. Starting

with that truth and working backwards is how an old midwife would work with this.

Laurel

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel. I can confirm through bloodwork that my P caused my cortisol levels to be elevated as well as my thyroid to hypersecrete. I was tested for every disease under the sun from my endo and my thyroid and adrenals were healthy so this would leave me to believe that the erratic behavior of these two glands was from excessive amounts of P stuck in the fat base. By all means add this to your list......Hope this helps.... GLaurel wrote:

Pat wrote:

These issues are best resolved not with a literature search but with proper individualized testing.

But under these conditions women are not going to all post their results.

Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was rock bottom.

I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn’t report sore kidneys. I’ve never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very different symptoms from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys and the neurological effects. I don’t think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported anxiety. Maybe she will jump in with her symptoms. She and some others had a similar pattern.

I admire pattern watching as a method for pre-science. There are midwifes in the world who never test a damn thing. They can tell where the baby is located in the birth canal just by looking at the skin in the crack of the mother’s butt. They never stick their hand inside the mother and invade. That is considered vulgar. Intense attunement is the mark of a good midwife in some cultures.

There are so many things to be sensed. Clusters tell us something. Watching for clusters and patterns is a very feminine method of taking in the world. You are in a circle of women here. Please do not devalue this. Women work best when we help each other hear our inner voice. That is an old tradition.

But I will not dismiss all testing. I just do not consider it the only trick in my witchy bag.

This isn’t WP, but it does show Testosterone

My saliva test from 6/17/2004 – I did the test according to specs from ZRT.

I was on carefully measured 2.5% OTC progesterone prescribed by my Doc at the time and the pharmacist thought was good quality. This was day 20.

E=3.2 (ok) P=7584 (H) T=133 (H) DHEA< 2.5(L)

I stopped the P and got on the WP in Sept ’03 – it was considered the great panacea and none of us had to get testing to start. Still, I’m not convinced testing tells the whole story. It is a glimmer.

I got on the WP and on my own I did saliva cortisol. It was day 4 (sort of - my cycle was goofed up) I had bad allergies that day. AM 4.4 (ok) Noon 2.8 (ok) 4pm 3.4 (H – I went too long without food cause I didn’t’ want food in my mouth for the test when I should have had a snack) night .8 (ok) When I am P overdosed the wave from the P washes into my E phase for about a week or so depending on how deep I was into the protocol. The androgen inspired pimples are the clue. I don’t see the elevated C in this test even though I felt clobbered by the P from the cycle before.

I had a thyroid test recently which indicated to me that I had to pull back on my thyroid even more. I did the test because I felt the need to test. I sensed that I could use less. My dose is lower than it has been in years. Something to learn there. I mark it in my mind for further questioning.

The biggest clue of all here is that for some of us E works and it works very well while we are detoxing.. Even if no one could ever explain it. E works. We aren’t sick. And we are standing up to an amazing amount of abuse and we aren’t falling apart. Starting with that truth and working backwards is how an old midwife would work with this.

Laurelclick here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news more. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

Hi , Are you saying: at some point your thyroid and adrenals were healthy (before starting on WP?) and after the WP protocol (for some time - how long?) your cortisol and thyroid became overactive? Why P and not E or E and P?

Sorry just want to get this clear in my brain.

Madeleen

Gambardella wrote:

Hi Laurel. I can confirm through bloodwork that my P caused my cortisol levels to be elevated as well as my thyroid to hypersecrete. I was tested for every disease under the sun from my endo and my thyroid and adrenals were healthy so this would leave me to believe that the erratic behavior of these two glands was from excessive amounts of P stuck in the fat base. By all means add this to your list......Hope this helps.... GLaurel wrote:

Pat wrote:

These issues are best resolved not with a literature search but with proper individualized testing.

But under these conditions women are not going to all post their results.

Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was rock bottom.

I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn’t report sore kidneys. I’ve never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very different symptoms from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys and the neurological effects. I don’t think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported anxiety. Maybe she will jump in with her symptoms. She and some others had a similar pattern.

I admire pattern watching as a method for pre-science. There are midwifes in the world who never test a damn thing. They can tell where the baby is located in the birth canal just by looking at the skin in the crack of the mother’s butt. They never stick their hand inside the mother and invade. That is considered vulgar. Intense attunement is the mark of a good midwife in some cultures.

There are so many things to be sensed. Clusters tell us something. Watching for clusters and patterns is a very feminine method of taking in the world. You are in a circle of women here. Please do not devalue this. Women work best when we help each other hear our inner voice. That is an old tradition.

But I will not dismiss all testing. I just do not consider it the only trick in my witchy bag.

This isn’t WP, but it does show Testosterone

My saliva test from 6/17/2004 – I did the test according to specs from ZRT.

I was on carefully measured 2.5% OTC progesterone prescribed by my Doc at the time and the pharmacist thought was good quality. This was day 20.

E=3.2 (ok) P=7584 (H) T=133 (H) DHEA< 2.5(L)

I stopped the P and got on the WP in Sept ’03 – it was considered the great panacea and none of us had to get testing to start. Still, I’m not convinced testing tells the whole story. It is a glimmer.

I got on the WP and on my own I did saliva cortisol. It was day 4 (sort of - my cycle was goofed up) I had bad allergies that day. AM 4.4 (ok) Noon 2.8 (ok) 4pm 3.4 (H – I went too long without food cause I didn’t’ want food in my mouth for the test when I should have had a snack) night .8 (ok) When I am P overdosed the wave from the P washes into my E phase for about a week or so depending on how deep I was into the protocol. The androgen inspired pimples are the clue. I don’t see the elevated C in this test even though I felt clobbered by the P from the cycle before.

I had a thyroid test recently which indicated to me that I had to pull back on my thyroid even more. I did the test because I felt the need to test. I sensed that I could use less. My dose is lower than it has been in years. Something to learn there. I mark it in my mind for further questioning.

The biggest clue of all here is that for some of us E works and it works very well while we are detoxing.. Even if no one could ever explain it. E works. We aren’t sick. And we are standing up to an amazing amount of abuse and we aren’t falling apart. Starting with that truth and working backwards is how an old midwife would work with this.

Laurelclick here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

Discover Yahoo!Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** Madeleen Herreshoff, 62, menopausalBasic WP 2/05; breast cancer twiceDirector CANHELP, Inc.A Cancer Treatment Information and Referral Servicewww.canhelp.com www.cancerconversations.com (a blog in progress)

Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM more. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

Hi Madeleen. Prior to starting the WP I did not have any problems other than very low E at a blood reading of 23. At that time I was only on 0.3 mg of E transdermal application. As I had a complete hyster in 2000 and have always been sensitive to P it was not in my protocol. I began WP is August of 04. I had been titrating at different levels of E and P per Ms. Wiley's suggestion. By the time Dec. came around I needed to take one week off from work as I could not get out of bed. At this time I was on Double E just to be able and try and tolerate the P. It was sometime around March that I like Liz V had the major anxiety problems coupled with major heart palps etc. At times the anxiety was so bad that I was literally jumping out of my skin. At this time I made an appointment with an Endocrinologist. Through blood work it was discovered that the thyroid was hypersecreting (yet tests revealed all was

normal with the thyroid gland) the cortisol was streaming (tests revealed the adrenals were healthy) My IGF-I was way below reference range yet the pituitary tests were normal. Since then I have backed down on the P as well as the E. So far the conclusion is that the 10% E cream was absorbing in too quickly on me and I was left with a large amount of unopposed P. I have changed my cream to a 3% cream which is keeping me somewhat more stable but am looking into the Oestrogel from Europe as an alternative. Since backing down on both I the anxiety and heart palps are a thing of the past. You may read my story on the main site. I am G. I am retesting my IGF-I. Hope this is of some help. G

Madeleen wrote:

Hi , Are you saying: at some point your thyroid and adrenals were healthy (before starting on WP?) and after the WP protocol (for some time - how long?) your cortisol and thyroid became overactive? Why P and not E or E and P?

Sorry just want to get this clear in my brain.

Madeleen

Gambardella wrote:

Hi Laurel. I can confirm through bloodwork that my P caused my cortisol levels to be elevated as well as my thyroid to hypersecrete. I was tested for every disease under the sun from my endo and my thyroid and adrenals were healthy so this would leave me to believe that the erratic behavior of these two glands was from excessive amounts of P stuck in the fat base. By all means add this to your list......Hope this helps.... GLaurel wrote:

Pat wrote:

These issues are best resolved not with a literature search but with proper individualized testing.

But under these conditions women are not going to all post their results.

Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was rock bottom.

I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn’t report sore kidneys. I’ve never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very different symptoms from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys and the neurological effects. I don’t think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported anxiety. Maybe she will jump in with her symptoms. She and some others had a similar pattern.

I admire pattern watching as a method for pre-science. There are midwifes in the world who never test a damn thing. They can tell where the baby is located in the birth canal just by looking at the skin in the crack of the mother’s butt. They never stick their hand inside the mother and invade. That is considered vulgar. Intense attunement is the mark of a good midwife in some cultures.

There are so many things to be sensed. Clusters tell us something. Watching for clusters and patterns is a very feminine method of taking in the world. You are in a circle of women here. Please do not devalue this. Women work best when we help each other hear our inner voice. That is an old tradition.

But I will not dismiss all testing. I just do not consider it the only trick in my witchy bag.

This isn’t WP, but it does show Testosterone

My saliva test from 6/17/2004 – I did the test according to specs from ZRT.

I was on carefully measured 2.5% OTC progesterone prescribed by my Doc at the time and the pharmacist thought was good quality. This was day 20.

E=3.2 (ok) P=7584 (H) T=133 (H) DHEA< 2.5(L)

I stopped the P and got on the WP in Sept ’03 – it was considered the great panacea and none of us had to get testing to start. Still, I’m not convinced testing tells the whole story. It is a glimmer.

I got on the WP and on my own I did saliva cortisol. It was day 4 (sort of - my cycle was goofed up) I had bad allergies that day. AM 4.4 (ok) Noon 2.8 (ok) 4pm 3.4 (H – I went too long without food cause I didn’t’ want food in my mouth for the test when I should have had a snack) night .8 (ok) When I am P overdosed the wave from the P washes into my E phase for about a week or so depending on how deep I was into the protocol. The androgen inspired pimples are the clue. I don’t see the elevated C in this test even though I felt clobbered by the P from the cycle before.

I had a thyroid test recently which indicated to me that I had to pull back on my thyroid even more. I did the test because I felt the need to test. I sensed that I could use less. My dose is lower than it has been in years. Something to learn there. I mark it in my mind for further questioning.

The biggest clue of all here is that for some of us E works and it works very well while we are detoxing.. Even if no one could ever explain it. E works. We aren’t sick. And we are standing up to an amazing amount of abuse and we aren’t falling apart. Starting with that truth and working backwards is how an old midwife would work with this.

Laurelclick here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.**

Discover Yahoo!Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** Madeleen Herreshoff, 62, menopausalBasic WP 2/05; breast cancer twiceDirector CANHELP, Inc.A Cancer Treatment Information and Referral Servicewww.canhelp.com www.cancerconversations.com (a blog in progress)

Discover Yahoo!Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/**The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice.** __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

How high was your P levels? Your E levels?

Here's a short synopsis of some of P's actions -- I don't see anything

to suggest that P would cause cortisol levels to increase or to

increase androgens (in fact it's mentioned that P is an anti-androgen):

http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroidpathway/

actions_of_progesterone.html

The website was not as thorough as another paper -- it's a more

extensive review of the actions of P in pdf form that I could send if

anyone wants.

One thing that P does is increase temperature and metabolism which

results in a energy expenditure of an extra 200 plus calories -- but

women usually unconsciously make up for the deficit by eating more --

but the interesting thing is that they tend to eat more protein!

It is my understanding that P inhibits cortisol function by competing

for the same receptor.

Even though P is a precursor for cortisol production in the adrenal

cortex -- as far as I can tell the P that we apply isn't utilized as a

substrate for production of other hormones this way or if so only

minimally -- the enzymes and co-factors needed for that conversion are

not just randomly found in the body. P is metabolized into various P

metabolites, not other hormones. One has to keep production pathways

separate from metabolism pathways.

Namaste, Liz

> Hi Laurel.  I can confirm through bloodwork that my P caused my

> cortisol levels to be elevated as well as my thyroid to hypersecrete. 

> I was tested for every disease under the sun from my endo and my

> thyroid and adrenals were healthy so this would leave me to believe

> that the erratic behavior of these two glands was from excessive

> amounts of P stuck in the fat base.  By all means add this to your

> list......Hope this helps.... G

>

> Laurel wrote:

>> Pat wrote:

>>

>> These issues are best resolved not with a literature

>> search but with proper individualized testing.

>>

>> But under these conditions women are not going to all post their

>> results.

>>

>> Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.

>> Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was

>> rock bottom.

>>

>> I will share some.  That was Liz and she doesn’t report sore kidneys.

>>  I’ve never heard her talk about sore kidneys.  She has very

>> different symptoms from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys

>> and the neurological effects.  I don’t think Liz reported hair loss

>> either.  Liz reported anxiety.  Maybe she will jump in with her

>> symptoms.  She and some others had a similar pattern. 

>>  

>> I admire pattern watching as a method for pre-science.  There are

>> midwifes in the world who never test a damn thing.  They can tell

>> where the baby is located in the birth canal just by looking at the

>> skin in the crack of the mother’s butt.  They never stick their hand

>> inside the mother and invade.  That is considered vulgar.  Intense

>> attunement is the mark of a good midwife in some cultures. 

>>  

>> There are so many things to be sensed.  Clusters tell us something. 

>> Watching for clusters and patterns is a very feminine method of

>> taking in the world.  You are in a circle of women here.  Please do

>> not devalue this.  Women work best when we help each other hear our

>> inner voice.  That is an old tradition. 

>>  

>> But I will not dismiss all testing.  I just do not consider it the

>> only trick in my witchy bag. 

>>  

>> This isn’t WP, but it does show Testosterone

>> My saliva test from 6/17/2004 – I did the test according to specs

>> from ZRT.

>> I was on carefully measured 2.5% OTC progesterone prescribed by my

>> Doc at the time and the pharmacist thought was good quality.  This

>> was day 20.

>> E=3.2 (ok)  P=7584 (H)  T=133 (H) DHEA< 2.5(L)

>> I stopped the P and got on the WP in Sept ’03 – it was considered the

>> great panacea and none of us had to get testing to start.  Still, I’m

>> not convinced testing tells the whole story.  It is a glimmer. 

>>  

>> I got on the WP and on my own I did saliva cortisol.  It was day 4

>> (sort of - my cycle was goofed up)  I had bad allergies that day.  AM

>> 4.4 (ok) Noon 2.8 (ok) 4pm 3.4 (H – I went too long without food

>> cause I didn’t’ want food in my mouth for the test when I should have

>> had a snack) night .8 (ok)    When I am P overdosed the wave from the

>> P washes into my E phase for about a week or so depending on how deep

>> I was into the protocol.  The androgen inspired pimples are the

>> clue.  I don’t see the elevated C in this test even though I felt

>> clobbered by the P from the cycle before. 

>> I had a thyroid test recently which indicated to me that I had to

>> pull back on my thyroid even more.  I did the test because I felt the

>> need to test. I sensed that I could use less.  My dose is lower than

>> it has been in years.  Something to learn there.  I mark it in my

>> mind for further questioning.

>> The biggest clue of all here is that for some of us E works and it

>> works very well while we are detoxing.. Even if no one could ever

>> explain it.  E works.  We aren’t sick.  And we are standing up to an

>> amazing amount of abuse and we aren’t falling apart.  Starting with

>> that truth and working backwards is how an old midwife would work

>> with this. 

>> Laurel

>>

>>

>>

>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>>

>> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

>> intended as medical advice.**

>>

> Discover Yahoo!

> Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

> intended as medical advice.**

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In the beginning of the WP I was getting pretty good blood readings on basic dose of E. The highest blood level of P that I attained on day 21 at 350mg P bid was 6.9. As I kept having to increase my E to tolerate the side effects from the P my E blood levels actually decreased. I do find that my estrogen appears to work better when I use smaller doses of P 25mg max. Just have not been able to find the correct combination. When I use the P with lower E I seem to pack on the pounds, yet when I don't use the P it's as if I can't hear the E. A very difficult balancing act indeed. Prior to the start of the protocol I had a complete set of blood work drawn. Thyroid and cortisol were both in normal ranges as was everything else. Difficult to decipher what excessive hormone was causing what. Thanks for your input. Glad to see you posting again.............. G

wrote:

,How high was your P levels? Your E levels?Here's a short synopsis of some of P's actions -- I don't see anything to suggest that P would cause cortisol levels to increase or to increase androgens (in fact it's mentioned that P is an anti-androgen):http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroidpathway/ actions_of_progesterone.htmlThe website was not as thorough as another paper -- it's a more extensive review of the actions of P in pdf form that I could send if anyone wants.One thing that P does is increase temperature and metabolism which results in a energy expenditure of an extra 200 plus calories -- but women usually unconsciously make up for the deficit by eating more -- but the interesting thing is that they tend to eat more protein!It is my understanding that P inhibits cortisol function by competing

for the same receptor.Even though P is a precursor for cortisol production in the adrenal cortex -- as far as I can tell the P that we apply isn't utilized as a substrate for production of other hormones this way or if so only minimally -- the enzymes and co-factors needed for that conversion are not just randomly found in the body. P is metabolized into various P metabolites, not other hormones. One has to keep production pathways separate from metabolism pathways.Namaste, Liz> Hi Laurel. I can confirm through bloodwork that my P caused my > cortisol levels to be elevated as well as my thyroid to hypersecrete. > I was tested for every disease under the sun from my endo and my > thyroid and adrenals were healthy so this would leave me to believe > that the erratic behavior of these two glands was from excessive > amounts of P

stuck in the fat base. By all means add this to your > list......Hope this helps.... G>> Laurel wrote:>> Pat wrote:>>>> These issues are best resolved not with a literature>> search but with proper individualized testing.>>>> But under these conditions women are not going to all post their >> results.>>>> Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.>> Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was>> rock bottom.>>>> I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn’t report sore kidneys. >> I’ve never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very >> different symptoms from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys >> and the neurological effects. I don’t think Liz reported hair loss >> either. Liz reported anxiety.

Maybe she will jump in with her >> symptoms. She and some others had a similar pattern. >> >> I admire pattern watching as a method for pre-science. There are >> midwifes in the world who never test a damn thing. They can tell >> where the baby is located in the birth canal just by looking at the >> skin in the crack of the mother’s butt. They never stick their hand >> inside the mother and invade. That is considered vulgar. Intense >> attunement is the mark of a good midwife in some cultures. >> >> There are so many things to be sensed. Clusters tell us something. >> Watching for clusters and patterns is a very feminine method of >> taking in the world. You are in a circle of women here. Please do >> not devalue this. Women work best when we help each other hear our

>> inner voice. That is an old tradition. >> >> But I will not dismiss all testing. I just do not consider it the >> only trick in my witchy bag. >> >> This isn’t WP, but it does show Testosterone>> My saliva test from 6/17/2004 – I did the test according to specs >> from ZRT.>> I was on carefully measured 2.5% OTC progesterone prescribed by my >> Doc at the time and the pharmacist thought was good quality. This >> was day 20.>> E=3.2 (ok) P=7584 (H) T=133 (H) DHEA< 2.5(L)>> I stopped the P and got on the WP in Sept ’03 – it was considered the >> great panacea and none of us had to get testing to start. Still, I’m >> not convinced testing tells the whole story. It is a glimmer. >> >> I got on the WP and on my own I did saliva

cortisol. It was day 4 >> (sort of - my cycle was goofed up) I had bad allergies that day. AM >> 4.4 (ok) Noon 2.8 (ok) 4pm 3.4 (H – I went too long without food >> cause I didn’t’ want food in my mouth for the test when I should have >> had a snack) night .8 (ok) When I am P overdosed the wave from the >> P washes into my E phase for about a week or so depending on how deep >> I was into the protocol. The androgen inspired pimples are the >> clue. I don’t see the elevated C in this test even though I felt >> clobbered by the P from the cycle before. >> I had a thyroid test recently which indicated to me that I had to >> pull back on my thyroid even more. I did the test because I felt the >> need to test. I sensed that I could use less. My dose is lower than >> it has been in years. Something to

learn there. I mark it in my >> mind for further questioning.>> The biggest clue of all here is that for some of us E works and it >> works very well while we are detoxing.. Even if no one could ever >> explain it. E works. We aren’t sick. And we are standing up to an >> amazing amount of abuse and we aren’t falling apart. Starting with >> that truth and working backwards is how an old midwife would work >> with this. >> Laurel>>>>>>>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/>>>> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not >> intended as medical advice.**>>> Discover Yahoo!> Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!>> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/>> **The group

conversation is informational in nature and is not > intended as medical advice.**>>>

[Guest guest]

I had hair loss even before I was on WP. It got worse with the anxiety but seems a little better now, but still comes out. I do not have kidney pain but gallbladder/liver pain.

Liz V.

Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was rock bottom.

I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn’t report sore kidneys. I’ve never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very different symptoms from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys and the neurological effects. I don’t think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported anxiety. Maybe she will jump in with her symptoms. She and some others had a similar pattern.

[Guest guest]

Do you have any idea what your baseline for Testosterone was before

you started supplementing with P and E?

Keep in mind that some women have very high testosterone all their

lives without androgenic features like hairiness and deep voice.

Years ago when I started using OTC P cream I eventually got a little

too much and my next tests showed VERY VERY high testosterone. Excess

P is used to make T.

An aside: Male pattern baldness in women can have the same cause as

for men. Testosterone is converted into DHT in the scalp. A very good

interrupt for this conversion is saw palmetto capsules taken

internally. (And put on the scalp if you can stand the nasty smell.)

Any hormonal imbalance overloads the liver.

> I had hair loss even before I was on WP. It got worse with the

anxiety but

> seems a little better now, but still comes out. I do not have

kidney pain

> but gallbladder/liver pain.

>

> Liz V.

>

> _____

>

>

> Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.

> Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was

> rock bottom.

>

>

>

> I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn't report sore

kidneys. I've

> never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very different

symptoms

> from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys and the

neurological

> effects. I don't think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported

> anxiety. Maybe she will jump in with her symptoms. She and some

others had

> a similar pattern.

[Guest guest]

Do you have any idea what your baseline for Testosterone was before

you started supplementing with P and E?

Keep in mind that some women have very high testosterone all their

lives without androgenic features like hairiness and deep voice.

Years ago when I started using OTC P cream I eventually got a little

too much and my next tests showed VERY VERY high testosterone. Excess

P is used to make T.

An aside: Male pattern baldness in women can have the same cause as

for men. Testosterone is converted into DHT in the scalp. A very good

interrupt for this conversion is saw palmetto capsules taken

internally. (And put on the scalp if you can stand the nasty smell.)

Any hormonal imbalance overloads the liver.

> I had hair loss even before I was on WP. It got worse with the

anxiety but

> seems a little better now, but still comes out. I do not have

kidney pain

> but gallbladder/liver pain.

>

> Liz V.

>

> _____

>

>

> Neither the E nor the P took the androgen pathway.

> Indeed Testosterone was low normal and DHEA was

> rock bottom.

>

>

>

> I will share some. That was Liz and she doesn't report sore

kidneys. I've

> never heard her talk about sore kidneys. She has very different

symptoms

> from LJ and me and others who report sore kidneys and the

neurological

> effects. I don't think Liz reported hair loss either. Liz reported

> anxiety. Maybe she will jump in with her symptoms. She and some

others had

> a similar pattern.