Re: boink!--more thoughts

March 30, 2008

>

> Hi Colette,

>

> " Boink " ? Well, I like the sense of humor with which you write about

> all this.

No matter how sh*t I feel, I never lose my sense of humor--or my

appetite. Actually, I do lose my humor, I am humorless at times. My

face is long and gray, like I've died a thousand deaths. And I feel

like I have.

>

> I don't want to try & convince you either way about meds, or either

> way about ACT for that matter. I seem to hear certain things in your

> post that echo my own experience. A lecture is not helpful, but here

> is what I seem to recognize that is common.

>

> I too am going through yet another rough patch. Perhaps the only

> thing I still bring with me from ACT as I write these words is the

> persistent awareness that the thoughts & feelings which so distress

> me are not quite what they seem ... that their messages of disaster

> and worthlessness are behaviors, not absolute reality.

I'm not so sure about this. I think some of this is theoretical,

which, when matched against my personal experience, is not...I don't

know--the truth? It's an idea, but it's not the truth. Not my

personal truth. Maybe. My heart is open to new truths,truer

truths,and alternative ways of seeing reality. But I don't get

'messages of disaster'. I get sensations of disaster. Pure hell.

Compassion withers. Kindness is only something I've heard of in a

book. My best intentions fail. I am crushed by these experiences.

Yes, I survive them. Yes, I am willing to have them in pursuit of

what I value. But they suuuuck.

I hate to be so negative. But it's where I'm at. Again, it doesn't

mean I'm giving up, or trying to challenge the ideas. I'm just

talking about how they measure up to my life's experience. Maybe it

will all be clear in the future. Maybe it's just a stop on the way to

something.

Now, to sound totally new age, this thought came to me the other day,

like a little wise-mind poem:

" Inside you there is a place of peace.

I'm not telling you this to correct you.

I'm telling you because I love you. "

>

> Like you, I suspect, my upheavals often seem to be triggered by an

> especially upsetting event. With you it might be a scary new health

> concern, with me it tends to be an episode of rejection or financial

> difficulty (it's the latter just now). You struggle with physical

> sensations, I struggle with thoughts & feelings that tell me I am

> worthless, that those around me will soon reject me for my failures,

> and that my future will be not just difficult but unacceptably bleak.

>

> I notice that you too have some thoughts & feelings about your

> sensations: that they are poisonous, unbearable, and uncontrollable.

> So in both our cases we are dealing with a real event & then defining

> it through our thoughts.

>

> As you say, we start thinking that " welcoming " a painful event would

> be " a total lie. " ACT seems " confusing " and confusion at this point

> seems unacceptable.

Confusion is acceptable. Confusion is part of life, and even fun.

What's not acceptable is feeling like I'm in hell, when I'm just

watching two girls giggle on the bus. Really, hell. I'm somewhere

else. I'm in my own personal hell.

Maybe the problem is trying to make sense, to make a narrative, out of

these episodes. Maybe the thing is to accept and keep walking.

>

> We yearn for certainty as if it will save us. And what can be more

> certain, more " true, " than that we are " broken, diminished " (you) or

> " worthless, a failure " (me)? We see other people as " normal " and wish

> for that normalcy.

Well, I know everyone is weird in their own way. I'm really not

concerned about normalcy, actually. I ''m concerned with living my

precious and singular life. I think 'normal' is kind of out the

window at this point...

We are certain that " here, " where we are, is hell,

> but despair at ever getting " there, " where the normal, happy people

> are.

>

> Besides the need for certainty, another thing that makes these

> thoughts so plausible is that they agree so completely with what

> friends, family, & others tell us with every gesture, every word of

> intended support. Illness & death are not just painful, but " bad. "

> Sadness is also " bad. " Failure is not just painful but " bad " in some

> way that " says something about us. " We need " comfort. " The

> reinforcement we get for thinking this way is nearly constant.

> Besides, it's " normal " to think this way - and we want to be

> " normal, " right?

Don't care about normal, as I've said. I want to be me. And the

level of suffering i'm going through is unnacceptable. To live with it

would be without compassion. It would be cruel. Actually, right this

moment, I feel fine. Life is pretty great right now. So maybe I'm

fine. La dee da...

>

> I have no advice really about meds. I did once take Xanax in the

> midst of a severe depression some years back, with many extremely

> scary thoughts, when I was out in the world having to " fake it " every

> day at work. No idea if it really helped - it was more the security

> of having the pills available that I wanted, I think.

Oy, meds. An incendiary topic probably better avoided, as I don't

want to be imprisoned by scientologists. But I'm thinking about

SSRIs, not benzos. I hate the whole idea. I am terrified of them.

>

> If you want to try ACT again at some point, do remember that the

> hardest part for some of us is seeing through our belief system,

> especially if we've had difficulty not just for a few years but since

> childhood. It's true that some folks can get an " aha! " moment after

> only a few months of the workbook. Others of us, like me, make

> progress more slowly. I don't know if you were able to hook up with

> an ACT therapist as you hoped to, but if you can, give it a shot. Or

> you might be able to find someone who doesn't do ACT officially, but

> is friendly to mindfulness, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, or similar

> new-wave approaches. San Francisco is too big a town not to have some

> hip therapists - just a question of finding them.

I am doing all I can to get in the chair with a shrink. I think it's

in order. I even think some of this ACT some may have kicked up some

dust, that's why things are getting worse.

>

> Today I will do some mindfulness meditation (which I avoided

> yesterday, because it gets closer to pain & challenges consistency).

> I'll try to stand with myself. And I will remind myself that

> resistance (needing consistency) feels absolutely true, absolutely

> necessary - right up until the instant I begin to let go.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much for this post, for your generosity. Much gratitude.

I hope you know that my responses are not meant it be challenging in

an unfriendly way at all, I'm just chewing on what you've said, andn I

appreciate it so much.

I wish you strength and a steady ship in the face of your challenges.

-Colette

>

> --Randy

>

> P.S. Since body sensations (heart stuff, etc.) are a concern, if you

> haven't already you might try using the Advanced Search on Yahoo for

> this group with " C. " as author & various terms like

> " panic disorder " etc. in the message body. As you know he experienced

> much of this himself & his posts might be interesting to you. For

> example he wrote this about experiencing heart skips -

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/message/1764

>

> And this about the apparent security offered by meds -

>

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/message/65

>

March 31, 2008

Hi again -

Just one more observation & I will shut up -

> And the level of suffering I'm going through is unnacceptable.

That's it. That's the thing itself nailed right there. What this nail

goes through is our life. The moment ANY experience is seen as

" unacceptable " we are pinned like a bug to a spreading board.

If we say, " But really, it IS unacceptable, " what is the bargain we

are making?

If the cost of knowing who we are is suffering, is knowing the thing

to do?

Too many words! Thanks for your words of support back to me, and hope

you keep us posted -

Randy

March 31, 2008

Hi Randy!

Semantics again. Concepts, states, sensations, emotions, slither

around and try to take refuge in words. I get lost in it. Is it

'unacceptable' or is it simply 'very unpleasant and I would strongly

prefer not have it'? The true emergent voice is from my heart, clear

and strong, it says:

You've suffered enough.

March 31, 2008

Hi Colette – I’ve been reluctant to post, in part,

because it didn’t seem right at the time (my mind talking there).

Anyway, you are right in that we humans naturally do not want to

suffer and do all kinds of things not to touch it. Pema Chodron, in her kindly

way, speaks to this in the context of creating the seeds and conditions of our

own suffering. We tend to see ourselves alone in our darkest pain and

think that nobody else could be going through what I am going through.

True, nobody has your experience, but the pain you have has and is being felt

by millions of people around the world. I don’t think this makes it

better, but thinking it ought to be better, or is unacceptable, may just be

making it worse. If the acceptable part was out of the way, what would be

left? If you were willing to have it, I wonder what would happen to the

pain and your life over time.

I’m just thinking here with a sincere intention to reach

out.

It is so easy to get caught up in our stories about why this or

that is so, and we hold onto them because they give us grounding. That

grounding though can work against us because we can treat the story as

fact. So, we struggle to remove the walls that the narrative of our mind

creates. We must figure it out? Achieve another state? Be

more like … less like. And on and on. The harder path here is

to let go of the stories and to sit with the uncertainty and unpredictability of

life. That can be new, but old if it is wrapped in another story seeking another

way to avoid or not touch the pain we all will experience now and then.

I know this is hard to do. It goes against the grain,

against all the natural impulses to pull away and pull back. I think that’s

also why it can be vital.

Pema also goes on to talk about how beginning mindful acceptance

practice can be tough going. She notes that emotions tend to be

experienced more strongly as we honestly and openly face that which we’d

rather not think and feel. I think she is right, at least in my

experience. And it may be that you are at this place – starting to

experience things a bit differently. This is where the old hooks are most

likely to pull you back. Yet, if you persist, your experience of pain,

including other feelings and thoughts, can be transformed into something that

is not another Boink. It just takes time and some patience.

Peace -john

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

Director of Clinical Training

Director, Anxiety Disorders Research Program

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology

Social Science 369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

email: forsyth@...

Web

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Web Blog on Mindfulness and Acceptance for Anxiety

http://mindfulness-and-anxiety.blogspot.com/

Undergraduates interested in a research position in my lab can

apply at: www.albany.edu/~forsyth/undergradra.html

From:

ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On

Behalf Of scottbaio2000

Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:08 AM

To: ACT_for_the_Public

Subject: Re: boink!--more thoughts

Hi Randy!

Semantics again. Concepts, states, sensations, emotions, slither

around and try to take refuge in words. I get lost in it. Is it

'unacceptable' or is it simply 'very unpleasant and I would strongly

prefer not have it'? The true emergent voice is from my heart, clear

and strong, it says:

You've suffered enough.

March 31, 2008

Thank you for your thoughtful email.

I love Pema. I'm reading her right now.

I'm really confused about some of these ideas just now. I wrote about

my confusion in my last post, responding to , but also sort of

responding to you.

It seems like there's a degree of suffering that really does warrant

remedying, a situation where palliation of suffering is indeed

compassionate, not escapist. I don't know where the fulcrum lays. I

don't know which inner wise voice to heed.

So I'm supposed to have signed off as anxiety manager and I'm spending

my whole life talking about my anxiety on this message board.

I suppose I'll go practice some mindfulness now!

Thanks again.

>

> Hi Colette - I've been reluctant to post, in part, because it didn't

> seem right at the time (my mind talking there).

>

> Anyway, you are right in that we humans naturally do not want to suffer

> and do all kinds of things not to touch it. Pema Chodron, in her kindly

> way, speaks to this in the context of creating the seeds and conditions

> of our own suffering. We tend to see ourselves alone in our darkest

> pain and think that nobody else could be going through what I am going

> through. True, nobody has your experience, but the pain you have has

> and is being felt by millions of people around the world. I don't think

> this makes it better, but thinking it ought to be better, or is

> unacceptable, may just be making it worse. If the acceptable part was

> out of the way, what would be left? If you were willing to have it, I

> wonder what would happen to the pain and your life over time.

>

> I'm just thinking here with a sincere intention to reach out.

>

> It is so easy to get caught up in our stories about why this or that is

> so, and we hold onto them because they give us grounding. That

> grounding though can work against us because we can treat the story as

> fact. So, we struggle to remove the walls that the narrative of our

> mind creates. We must figure it out? Achieve another state? Be more

> like ... less like. And on and on. The harder path here is to let go

> of the stories and to sit with the uncertainty and unpredictability of

> life. That can be new, but old if it is wrapped in another story

> seeking another way to avoid or not touch the pain we all will

> experience now and then.

>

> I know this is hard to do. It goes against the grain, against all the

> natural impulses to pull away and pull back. I think that's also why it

> can be vital.

>

> Pema also goes on to talk about how beginning mindful acceptance

> practice can be tough going. She notes that emotions tend to be

> experienced more strongly as we honestly and openly face that which we'd

> rather not think and feel. I think she is right, at least in my

> experience. And it may be that you are at this place - starting to

> experience things a bit differently. This is where the old hooks are

> most likely to pull you back. Yet, if you persist, your experience of

> pain, including other feelings and thoughts, can be transformed into

> something that is not another Boink. It just takes time and some

> patience.

>

> Peace -john

>

> P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

>

> Associate Professor of Psychology

>

> Director of Clinical Training

>

> Director, Anxiety Disorders Research Program

>

> University at Albany, SUNY

>

> Department of Psychology

>

> Social Science 369

>

> 1400 Washington Avenue

>

> Albany, NY 12222

>

> Ph:

>

> Fax:

>

> email: forsyth@...

>

> Web

>

> www.albany.edu/~forsyth

>

> www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

>

> www.contextualpsychology.org

>

> Web Blog on Mindfulness and Acceptance for Anxiety

>

> http://mindfulness-and-anxiety.blogspot.com/

>

> Undergraduates interested in a research position in my lab can apply at:

> www.albany.edu/~forsyth/undergradra.html

>

> From: ACT_for_the_Public

> [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of scottbaio2000

> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:08 AM

> To: ACT_for_the_Public

> Subject: Re: boink!--more thoughts

>

> Hi Randy!

>

> Semantics again. Concepts, states, sensations, emotions, slither

> around and try to take refuge in words. I get lost in it. Is it

> 'unacceptable' or is it simply 'very unpleasant and I would strongly

> prefer not have it'? The true emergent voice is from my heart, clear

> and strong, it says:

>

> You've suffered enough.

>

April 1, 2008

Hi Collette,

I hear a lot of struggle in your posts -just watch, watch the anxiety, watch the struggle, watch the mind churning out the stories like a demented computer. Stick with the ACT - I can't tell you how valuable it has been for me - and I still have much to learn from it. I have had 'the anxiety/panic story for most of my adult life and have avoided big time, still do, but very slowly getting more free. I took SSRI's for about three years - they helped, I felt more confident, more able to cope, I don't know whether that was placebo or for real but it didn't matter, they supported me when I needed support. All I would say is come off them very gradually and very carefully will full support from your doctor. They won't kill you. Being a sufferer of anxiety it is natural that your mind feeds off of all the horror stories about these drugs - but in certain circumstances they can help, if you treat them with respect. I had no side effects, but when I

came off I did experience funny little 'flash like' sensations in my mind that were not all that bad and passed after a couple of weeks. Of course everybodies experience is different. But I feel that they can help support you WHILST doing other practises. Exercise, meditations, lifestyle changes - really looking at your life from a detached perspective and acting on those things that bring you most joy. Do that now - think what brings you joy and go off and do it! Drop the crappy anxiety - lifes to short to stuff a mushroom!

With warmth

Simone

[ACT_for_the_ Public] Re: boink!--more thoughts> > > > Hi Randy!> > Semantics again. Concepts, states, sensations, emotions, slither> around and try to

take refuge in words. I get lost in it. Is it> 'unacceptable' or is it simply 'very unpleasant and I would strongly> prefer not have it'? The true emergent voice is from my heart, clear> and strong, it says:> > You've suffered enough.>

Yahoo! for Good helps you make a difference

April 1, 2008

Funny, when I saw you say “thank you for your thoughtful

email” I immediately thought it might be useful to be less thoughtful

(with anxiety) and more thoughtless – lighter with it. I wonder if

the solutions you seek – final relief – are there to be had.

I know you’ve spoken already about days when you “feel fine.”

I and all other people have those days, or more like moments during a day when “feel

fine” is an accurate description. Then there are moments that don’t

feel fine. And, these don’t feel fine moments can be magnified

greatly by how we respond to them.

We all tend to wrestle with our pain so as to get back to feel

fine ways of being, and then hold on tight to that to keep it around for as

long as we can. Do you see this playing out in your experience? You

mention medications and your mind might be telling you “that’s a

way to keep feel fine” in the room longer. I wonder.

Medications, as you know, can bring relief, but also other side

effects that are unpleasant. So, there you are again, with less feel

fine. I’m certainly not saying that mediations are anti-ACT.

That wouldn’t be true. But, to go the mediation route, it seems

important to so it for a purpose. There are no mediations that will create

a vital life – no life pill. There are no mediations that pack

vitality. They can, at times, take the edge of the pain, but not

completely eliminate the pain of life. You have the side effects.

And, you have your life that you must find a way to engage with those side

effects and anything else that shows up.

The fulcrum (I thought play ground seesaw) of your mind seems to

be about tipping back and forth between feeling good and the raging hurt.

It is interesting that you cast it that way, because when we are tipped up and feeling

good, our natural inclination is to want to stay there. But, we don’t

for long. Gravity and momentum take over and eventually we come

down. And, we work hard to get back up in the air, only to come down

again. We are all on this seesaw of life, and if you really look into it,

you can be up or down regardless of what your mind tells you about each

emotional moment in time.

The other more important point is that you don’t have to

stay on the seesaw trying to be up or down. You can just stop. When

you do that, you can get off the ride and watch it for what it is. In fact,

to get off, you have to be willing to stop pushing back up in again. For

a moment, you have to sit on the down side and with it. You are not the

ups and downs. You have choice is what you do.

These are some of the points that Pema raises – many of

which are consistent with the ACT work you are doing. In her book “The

Places that Scare You” she quotes Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche saying “A

fresh attitude starts to happen when we look to see that yesterday was

yesterday, and not it is gone; today is today and now it is new. It is

like that – every hour, every minute is changing. If we stop observing

change, then we stop seeing everything as new.”

This applies to our emotional and mental life – all are

like the weather, continually shifting, changing, moment to moment. She

goes on to add that we can learn to acknowledge what we struggle against in

life as ordinary experience – “Life does continually go up and

down.” Everything is in process. Yet, as Pema points out, we

all resist this basic fact – we have a deep rooted aversion to it.

We want permanence, security, predictability, and believe we can find it.

Everything that cuts against this is experienced as frustration, something to

be overcome, defeated.

What we can acknowledge is that we are not the only ones that

cannot keep it together – there are no people who have managed to avoid

the uncertainty of life, our minds, our emotions. Yet, not keeping it all

together doesn’t mean that people just fall part. It just means

that it is hard to be human, to be just as we are. There is an agenda in

our mind saying that we ought be something other than we are. So, we

struggle with ourselves, and that struggle just hurts and is tiresome.

I also like how she frames the traps set by our minds. So,

when we judge that we are a wreck, incompetent, worthless, about to lose it,

unlovable, and on and on, what are we basing that on? On this fleeting

moment? On yesterday’s success or failure? A tomorrow that

has yet to be? Our minds create realities that we all tend to cling to

those mental realities as if each was a fixed experience, and yet nothing is

fixed. Everything in the universe, right down to the millions of cells

within our bodies, are constantly changing.

What she and some of the ACT work suggests is the possibility of

taking ourselves less seriously, our minds less seriously, our emotional life

less seriously. To be, in short, lighter and more flexible. This

can transform the suffering and cut out the fuel that keeps us stuck. The

practice, patience, and conscious choice to let go are important here and need

to be watered and cultivated with your eyes and heart fixed on what you want to

do.

I wish you the best on your journey. Follow your heart.

-j