Re: Escapist Thoughts that Feel Good?

[Guest guest]

>

> I was wondering if any of the group members have dealt with

> escapist thoughts and how they ought to be handled.

Hi -

When someone drinks or uses drugs to escape painful thoughts or

feelings, it feels good for awhile. When someone deliberately thinks

pleasant thoughts to distract themselves from painful thoughts or

feelings, same thing. This is all pretty standard avoidance, yes?

Does your daydreaming sound similar to this, or different?

Closely related to this, can I ask another question?

Does it seem to you that you are outside the thoughts that are

causing you problems, looking at them in a defused way? Maybe not

always but some of the time?

What if you thought you were outside, but were actually still inside

and didn't know it?

This is how I sometimes think of it:

Picture your thoughts as a giant tinkertoy, sort of like a huge

molecule, big enough that you can fit inside. At the center is a

fairly compact " atom " of thoughts about your physical symptoms, etc.

You are perched just outside of that atom, looking at it. All around

you are other thoughts, having to do with looking at the atom and

analyzing it: why your situation is more complicated, how acceptance

takes time, how your tendencies have prevented any progress with

acceptance, etc. And at the outermost rim of this giant tinkertoy are

your thoughts about how mindfulness and defusion work.

You are gazing at your thoughts. As you do so, are you outside the

tinkertoy, or inside it? If getting outside involved giving something

up, what would this thing be? Who would object to getting outside,

and why?

[Guest guest]

,

Is there a medical solution? If yes, then what steps have you taken?

If not, then what valued actions do you want to take in the meantime?

I believe that some where in your daydreams there is something of

value... even though you agree that they may be escape thoughts, are

there any valued actions laying in those daydreams? If there are

valued actions, can you take one or two now, tomorrow or in any short-

term time period? If not, and they are just escape thoughts, then

have you tried letting yourself have the painful thoughts AND then

also WATCH the daydreams? To me, it seems your mind is doing

something for you? It may not be working, but it IS doing something

for you... what is it doing? What can you do with your mouth, hands,

arms, legs and feet that your mind just can't do? What can you do

with these body parts while taking your pain, daydreams and escapist

thoughts along for the ride?

What I am beginning to learn as of late is that sometimes a simple

action in a valued direction needs to come first, even before all of

the " fancy " defusion/acceptance techniques; and in that spirit THAT

action IS the defusion/acceptance technique; plus it IS the Values

and Commitment piece as well. I am learning that my mind can also use

ACT to prevent me from acting e.g. " Well, I have to defuse

from/accept this first, then I can do something different. " Hmmm.

Doesn't that sound familiar? E.g. " Well, I have to get over this

depression first, then I can do something different. " I'll provide an

actual experience of my own.

I have been struggling with smoking. My mind has told me that I have

to figure IT all out first, then defuse, then accept and then act;

what I actually found from experience is that when I simply quit,

then the quitting experience provided me with the " real " stuff that

needed to be accepted i.e. life itself, after taking the quitting

action, provided me with real-time acceptance practice.

P.S. I do not have the authority of your experience, so I am only

guessing and offering what I believe may be helpful... Don't believe

a word I say... better leave the authority to your experience.

>

> Hello everyone,

>

> I am currently dealing with a gastrointestinal problem (Chronic

GERD)

> that emerged in July of 2007. The problem has been particularly

sticky

> for me because the pain is frequent, because I believe that it was

> potentially avoidable (only in hindsight, of course), and because I

> have yet to find a medical solution for the situation.

>

> As has happened before with unwanted events in my life, my mind has

> separated my life history into " before the problem developed "

> and " after the problem developed. " So, for example, I might have a

> memory of a situation that occurred before the problem developed,

and

> the automatic thought would then be: " ah, that was before this

> happened... wouldn't it be nice to go back? mmmm... <daydreaming> "

>

> Now, most of the unproductive thoughts that I've dealt with using

ACT

> have been of the type that hurt. But in this case the situation is

a

> bit more complicated; the thoughts that are built around

recollection

> of my life before my gastrointestinal problem started are almost

like

> an escape from reality. In a destructive way, then, they

temporarily

> provide a good feeling--a feeling of relief. This feeling makes

the

> lure of fusion all the more powerful.

>

> My psychological escapes have been highly problematic for me in

that

> they have prevented me from accomodating and ultimately coming to

terms

> with my situation: that I am here now, not then, and that whatever

the

> outcome now, there is no way to go back to then. To be honest, the

> fact that I cannot go back, and that I seem unable to impose my

will

> onto reality by finding a viable solution to my problem frustrates

me

> beyond measure, and so at times all I want to do is to escape. In

the

> more difficult moments, my mind tells me that I do not deserve

this,

> that life is irrational and absurd, and that I therefore have a

*right*

> to escape psychologically.

>

> Acceptance is a process that takes time; as we become accustomed to

> problems, the process of taking them in becomes much easier. The

> aforementioned psychological tendencies have prevented this process

> from occurring, so I haven't made much progress on this one.

>

> I was wondering if any of the group members have dealt with

escapist

> thoughts and how they ought to be handled. Of course, I know that

they

> will need to be handled in much the same way (mindfulness,

defusion,

> etc.) as the rest of the mind garbage that we regularly deal with,

but

> I guess I am just searching for specific insights or lessons.

>

> Thank you for your help,

> --

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Escapist Thoughts that Feel Good?

Very good point, . I also find that, at least in the emotional realm, motivation seems to follow action, not the other way around---counterintuitve, but true. In AA they say "move a muscle, change a thought", as this is, apparently, the way things work.

All the best,

Don

,Is there a medical solution? If yes, then what steps have you taken? If not, then what valued actions do you want to take in the meantime?I believe that some where in your daydreams there is something of value... even though you agree that they may be escape thoughts, are there any valued actions laying in those daydreams? If there are valued actions, can you take one or two now, tomorrow or in any short-term time period? If not, and they are just escape thoughts, then have you tried letting yourself have the painful thoughts AND then also WATCH the daydreams? To me, it seems your mind is doing something for you? It may not be working, but it IS doing something for you... what is it doing? What can you do with your mouth, hands, arms, legs and feet that your mind just can't do? What can you do with these body parts while taking your pain, daydreams and escapist thoughts along for the ride? What I am beginning to learn as of late is that sometimes a simple action in a valued direction needs to come first, even before all of the "fancy" defusion/acceptance techniques; and in that spirit THAT action IS the defusion/acceptance technique; plus it IS the Values and Commitment piece as well. I am learning that my mind can also use ACT to prevent me from acting e.g. "Well, I have to defuse from/accept this first, then I can do something different." Hmmm. Doesn't that sound familiar? E.g. "Well, I have to get over this depression first, then I can do something different." I'll provide an actual experience of my own.I have been struggling with smoking. My mind has told me that I have to figure IT all out first, then defuse, then accept and then act; what I actually found from experience is that when I simply quit, then the quitting experience provided me with the "real" stuff that needed to be accepted i.e. life itself, after taking the quitting action, provided me with real-time acceptance practice.P.S. I do not have the authority of your experience, so I am only guessing and offering what I believe may be helpful... Don't believe a word I say... better leave the authority to your experience.>> Hello everyone,> > I am currently dealing with a gastrointestinal problem (Chronic GERD) > that emerged in July of 2007. The problem has been particularly sticky > for me because the pain is frequent, because I believe that it was > potentially avoidable (only in hindsight, of course), and because I > have yet to find a medical solution for the situation. > > As has happened before with unwanted events in my life, my mind has > separated my life history into "before the problem developed" > and "after the problem developed." So, for example, I might have a > memory of a situation that occurred before the problem developed, and > the automatic thought would then be: "ah, that was before this > happened... wouldn't it be nice to go back? mmmm... <daydreaming>" > > Now, most of the unproductive thoughts that I've dealt with using ACT > have been of the type that hurt. But in this case the situation is a > bit more complicated; the thoughts that are built around recollection > of my life before my gastrointestinal problem started are almost like > an escape from reality. In a destructive way, then, they temporarily > provide a good feeling--a feeling of relief. This feeling makes the > lure of fusion all the more powerful. > > My psychological escapes have been highly problematic for me in that > they have prevented me from accomodating and ultimately coming to terms > with my situation: that I am here now, not then, and that whatever the > outcome now, there is no way to go back to then. To be honest, the > fact that I cannot go back, and that I seem unable to impose my will > onto reality by finding a viable solution to my problem frustrates me > beyond measure, and so at times all I want to do is to escape. In the > more difficult moments, my mind tells me that I do not deserve this, > that life is irrational and absurd, and that I therefore have a *right* > to escape psychologically. > > Acceptance is a process that takes time; as we become accustomed to > problems, the process of taking them in becomes much easier. The > aforementioned psychological tendencies have prevented this process > from occurring, so I haven't made much progress on this one. > > I was wondering if any of the group members have dealt with escapist > thoughts and how they ought to be handled. Of course, I know that they > will need to be handled in much the same way (mindfulness, defusion, > etc.) as the rest of the mind garbage that we regularly deal with, but > I guess I am just searching for specific insights or lessons. > > Thank you for your help,> -->

[Guest guest]

> Very good point, . I also find that, at least in

> the emotional realm, motivation seems to follow action, not

> the other way around--counterintuitve, but true.

I agree with & Don. A single valued action, willingly

undertaken, can carry with it defusion, acceptance, values,

commitment. If the choice is to hesitate or do something, doing wins.

But here is my caveat. If you believe that things are a certain way

... but some of what you believe to be descriptions are evaluations

... what happens then?

I see this in myself and my descriptions of my big life problems, my

major " traps. " From where I stand, each trap seems perfectly made to

allow entrance in the past (that's how I got inside), but no exit in

the present or future.

I see the same in many other posts to this list. What is most

striking is how we all describe our traps as being external to our

ability to choose: a misbehaving brain or heart, a damaging medical

condition, a marketplace that rejects us, a fascination with

personal history, laziness, etc. These traps all seem very

different, and yet in three very important ways they are identical:

we describe them as real, insoluble, and unacceptable. We blame

reality, but can't put reality to rest.

For those of us in this boat, acting in service of a valued

direction seems " impossible. " We list our values, but then look at

the list and still want to argue or avoid. We grit our teeth and

take small actions here and there, then give up. We fret that

something essential is missing: belief, confidence, understanding,

willpower--even though ACT tells us these things are illusions, and

that action comes first, not after.

I think there is a neglected opening here--a way to get beyond

blaming ourselves or ACT for having failed. It's in the workbook but

easy to miss the first time through.

The question is, during those times we are most hung up on " reality "

being the problem, how do our thoughts feel?

Old, familiar, lifeless? Taking sides, right vs. wrong? Confused,

yet trying oh-so-hard for clarity? Lots of warnings, lots of " yes,

but " ? Problem-solving, but nothing gets solved? Lots of past/future

but no present, lots of words like must, should, can't, shouldn't?

Lots of thoughts about what something " means " about ourself or

others?

If so, might we practice some defusion with these thoughts - even

though letting go may seem unimaginable, unacceptable, shameful?

" Knowing " may not be helpful if it's only made of words in our head

and the words cut us off from life. Not knowing is a step towards

letting in new input that can lead somewhere. Or so I assume, not

knowing.

Of course if we'd rather just " know " and be " who we are " ... that

option is always open too.