Re:Practicalities?

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

It seems to me that there are certain places where one can count on an even reasonably clean toilet, such as fast food places and chain stores (like Target). Also coffee places. If I were trying to deal with agoraphobia and the need to be near a toilet, I would start with the closest fast food joint--for some coffee or a treat.

CarolynSee what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

[Guest guest]

Carolyn, thank you for the good idea. It is a starting point,

definitely.

When the stakes are higher, though, such as a person wanting to fly

overseas to attend a wedding (that they really want to go to as

opposed to feeling obliged), for example, would an ACT therapist work

to help someone achieve that? Or would the therapist perhaps help the

person accept NOT going if that was the upshot?

I guess what I'm wondering is, as a person who moderates a message

board filled with people looking for support with healing from the

limitations that seem to come from " fear of fear " and all the

accompanying symptoms, is there a " best " approach? In CBT, etc., one

would be looking for ideas in symptom management, at least. With ACT,

what would be the approach---ultimately? Are these situations in

which a therapist might approach it multi-dimensionally?

Thanks all!

Pat

If I were trying to deal with agoraphobia and the

> need to be near a toilet, I would start with the closest fast food

joint--for

> some coffee or a treat.

>

> Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Pat -- I'm not sure this will do your question justice or not. And, I certainly

don't want to appear to have " the " answer. Sometimes I have a tendency to cut

to the chase when I see something that pulls at my gut. And, I want you to know

that my reaction below is written with a kind heart and good intentions.

When I read your post, I immediately thought about this: isn't accepting not

doing something vital and important just more of the same. That is, it sounds

like this brand of acceptance is passive resignation, letting the same of yucky

bodily discomfort steer your hands, feet, and mouth. I just ask whether this

accepting of not doing because of discomfort is the way you want to live? Is it

possible that this kind of acceptance isn't helpful, and is actually harmful.

Here's a thought ... I'd like to know what happens when you accept the pain

winning out over your deepest desires? My guess is that in the short term you

get some relief, but in the long term you end up feeling frustrated and limited.

On top of that, you have the pain of the emotional discomfort plus the pain of

not living.

Someone I worked with described the situation like this. He really wanted to

drive a distance to visit a good friend. His fears and evaluative mind fed him

all kinds of reasons not to do that. He was anxious, desperate, and envisioned

himself driving only to be stuck, alone, away from others, and on the verge of a

nervous breakdown. In the past, he would simply shut down to the possibility of

driving in the service of something he cared about. So, I asked him what the

outcome of that was. He said, " I felt like crap anyway, home alone, and I

really felt sad that I couldn't do what I wanted to do. " In short, he had his

emotional pain, with the pain of missing out on living layered on top of that.

Ultimately, he had to decide whether he wanted to be at home with his pain on

top of pain of his life passing him by, or be willing to experience his painful

discomfort and critical mind while doing something vital. Ultimately, he

decided that pain with living better was better than pain+pain and being stuck.

His old history still showed up, often screaming at him to not do something

different and vital. Yet, he chose not to dignify his old history and instead

move his hands, feet, and mouth in the direction of what he cared about in his

life.

I'm not sure if any of this will be helpful to you or others you know. If you

look closely, much of this comes down to a choice between doing the same old (or

what you learning history tells you to do) or doing something new, while risking

the possibility of getting a different outcome in your life. Accepting what

comes as you take steps in the service of your deeply held values is active

acceptance, and the kind of acceptance that we all need to remind ourselves of

each and every day.

Peace -john

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology, SS369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

Email: forsyth@...

Web Sites:

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Re:Practicalities?

Carolyn, thank you for the good idea. It is a starting point,

definitely.

When the stakes are higher, though, such as a person wanting to fly

overseas to attend a wedding (that they really want to go to as

opposed to feeling obliged), for example, would an ACT therapist work

to help someone achieve that? Or would the therapist perhaps help the

person accept NOT going if that was the upshot?

I guess what I'm wondering is, as a person who moderates a message

board filled with people looking for support with healing from the

limitations that seem to come from " fear of fear " and all the

accompanying symptoms, is there a " best " approach? In CBT, etc., one

would be looking for ideas in symptom management, at least. With ACT,

what would be the approach---ultimately? Are these situations in

which a therapist might approach it multi-dimensionally?

Thanks all!

Pat

If I were trying to deal with agoraphobia and the

> need to be near a toilet, I would start with the closest fast food

joint--for

> some coffee or a treat.

>

> Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Your post resonated with me because after being agrophobic for over 20 years this is a choice I have yet to fully embrace. I kind of tip toe round the edges (just in case) I have made gains but still pull back from the full and total willingness thing. My mind has a kind of internal dialoug that goes something like this, 'yes I would like to do that but I know I will feel crap if I do it - is it worth the effort', and then ' God I'm hopeless, I know all this ACT stuff but STILL make the wrong choice!' Still prefering the pain and avoidance of keeping to the familiar rather than taking a leap into fresh air. So added to my pain of avoidance I have the pain of guilt as well! So my question is, what if you find yourself 50/50 split between wanting to take the bull by the horns and go for it - (for me that might mean walking further or driving out of comfort zone and

1001 other little limitations) or deciding that the pain that comes with that choice is MORE painful than the choice to stay stuck. How can I move forward out of that stop/start mentality? How can I let go of the guilt surrounding this issue? And one more point, I tell myself that I am already leading a valued life -which I believe I am, so why go through all the pain to gain more, if I am content where I am? Which I am 65% of the time. Is my brain hardwired to avoid?

Simone

[ACT_for_the_ Public] Re:Practicalities?Carolyn, thank you for the good idea. It is a starting point,definitely.

When the stakes are higher, though, such as a person wanting to flyoverseas to attend a wedding (that they really want to go to asopposed to feeling obliged), for example, would an ACT therapist workto help someone achieve that? Or would the therapist perhaps help theperson accept NOT going if that was the upshot? I guess what I'm wondering is, as a person who moderates a messageboard filled with people looking for support with healing from thelimitations that seem to come from "fear of fear" and all theaccompanying symptoms, is there a "best" approach? In CBT, etc., onewould be looking for ideas in symptom management, at least. With ACT,what would be the approach---ultimate ly? Are these situations inwhich a therapist might approach it multi-dimensionally ?Thanks all!PatIf I were trying to deal with agoraphobia and the > need to be near a toilet, I would start with the

closest fast foodjoint--for > some coffee or a treat.> > Carolyn

Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

Hi Simone,

Once again I'm jumping into a thread - but YOUR post really

resonated with ME!

And I'll bet it did with lots of other folks on this list too. Like

you I've made gains, and like you I have big areas where I still

choose the " comfort " of old ways & avoidance over what are

supposedly my values.

I don't think it's the ACT model that is at fault. Nor do I really

think it's because I'm " lazy " or " lack willpower, " as my mind is

always telling me - I have just enough trust in ACT and my

experience to see these thoughts as representing the old, useless

notion that I must somehow change " who I am " (my content) before I

can begin living.

And yet ... why aren't we magically doing everything we say we want

to?

One thing I've noticed about the ACT workbook is that it

concentrates much more on defusing from uncomfortable thoughts/

feelings as barriers to action, and much less (though not entirely

so) on the issue of identifying and defusing from dysfunctional

mental rules that we're often not aware of, but that run our lives

for us. Not challenging these rules, as we would in CBT, but seeing

how they operate & learning to test them & if they don't work

regarding them as mind chatter rather than literal truth.

What I mean is, those of us who seem more stubbornly resistant may

well have got lots of these unspoken rules in our heads about how to

behave & how to pursue our values & goals. And some of these rules

are probably counterproductive & keep us from getting out there &

learning from what really works in the world.

Steve has called one variety of these rules " strange loops. "

He gives the example of wanting to " feel confident " - if you try to

" feel " confident but instead feel like a fraud, you end up feeling

less confident & acting less confident - the rule fails to produce

confident action, which is what would really be useful in the world.

And a therapist/researcher called Pat Bach has proposed that we may

learn a similar sort of loop if we are trying very hard to keep from

losing something we want rather than getting it in the first place.

In effect we learn not to have what we are afraid to lose, because

this is a 100 percent guaranteed way never to lose it! She has coined

the phrase " If you aren't willing to lose it, you won't have it " to

describe this situation - where " it " is the thing the rule is

supposedly designed to achieve - only it has the opposite effect!

In my case I recently dredged up the mental rule " Enjoyment is

prohibited! " (Note the exclamation point - it's an ORDER from my

mind!) I realized I use this rule constantly, even during very

ordinary days. And I use it a LOT when thinking of an upcoming event

which might ordinarily promise a good time. Basically, I have learned

that moments of enjoyment & happiness don't last - so I protect

myself from losing such moments by never having them in the first

place. It sounds crazy but in fact I think it explains a lot of the

residual/constant tension & anxiety I carry around with me that

otherwise would seem to have no purpose. If I put the rule into the

form Pat Bach is talking about, it would be something like, " Always

enjoy myself = never lose enjoyment = don't have enjoyment in the

first place, so it will never be lost. "

For the last couple of weeks, I have been able to remember " Enjoyment

prohibited! " - and it has helped me defuse a number of times & enjoy

the day for a while even in the presence of continued anxious

thoughts. I can have the anxious thoughts & still enjoy the fresh

air & the sunshine - weird.

I would like to discover similar rules that I may be using in

relation to some of my values - but I don't really know how to do

this. I discovered " Enjoyment is prohibited! " by accident, while

doing a self-forgiveness meditation. I notice while reading some of

the other ACT books (not the workbook) that one role of a therapist

can be to point out " strange loops " to a client - but how about for

someone working on their own?

Anyway, hope this is of interest to someone out there - I think it's

very relevant to many of us, but sometimes I'm wrong & I'm just

ranting to myself about my own narrow concerns.

--Randy

>

> Hi,

>

> Your post resonated with me because after being agrophobic for

over

20 years this is a choice I have yet to fully embrace. I kind of tip

toe round the edges (just in case) I have made gains but still pull

back from the full and total willingness thing. My mind has a kind

of

internal dialoug that goes something like this, 'yes I would like to

do that but I know I will feel crap if I do it - is it worth the

effort', and then ' God I'm hopeless, I know all this ACT stuff but

STILL make the wrong choice!' Still prefering the pain and avoidance

of keeping to the familiar rather than taking a leap into fresh air.

So added to my pain of avoidance I have the pain of guilt as well!

So

my question is, what if you find yourself 50/50 split between

wanting

to take the bull by the horns and go for it - (for me that might

mean

walking further or driving out of comfort zone and 1001 other little

limitations) or deciding that the pain that comes with that choice

is

MORE

> painful than the choice to stay stuck. How can I move forward out

of that stop/start mentality? How can I let go of the guilt

surrounding this issue? And one more point, I tell myself that I am

already leading a valued life -which I believe I am, so why go

through all the pain to gain more, if I am content where I am? Which

I am 65% of the time. Is my brain hardwired to avoid?

>

> Simone

>

>

>

>

> [ACT_for_the_ Public] Re:Practicalities?

>

> Carolyn, thank you for the good idea. It is a starting point,

> definitely.

>

> When the stakes are higher, though, such as a person wanting to fly

> overseas to attend a wedding (that they really want to go to as

> opposed to feeling obliged), for example, would an ACT therapist

work

> to help someone achieve that? Or would the therapist perhaps help

the

> person accept NOT going if that was the upshot?

>

> I guess what I'm wondering is, as a person who moderates a message

> board filled with people looking for support with healing from the

> limitations that seem to come from " fear of fear " and all the

> accompanying symptoms, is there a " best " approach? In CBT, etc.,

one

> would be looking for ideas in symptom management, at least. With

ACT,

> what would be the approach---ultimate ly? Are these situations in

> which a therapist might approach it multi-dimensionally ?

>

> Thanks all!

> Pat

>

> If I were trying to deal with agoraphobia and the

> > need to be near a toilet, I would start with the closest fast

food

> joint--for

> > some coffee or a treat.

> >

> > Carolyn

>

>

>

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For

Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,I resonate with your dilemma, though agoraphobia per se was not the issue.  What I found really helpful (not strictly speaking ACT I suppose) is to get very honest with myself about what I *really, really* wanted--to stay securely stuck where I was, or to be free.  This was a scary inquiry for me.  I had to strip a lot of ideas away about what I *thought* I wanted, or should want, and get naked with myself about what was really going on.  What was I so attached to?  When I asked myself this question I got really in touch with the edge in me where I wanted the security more than the freedom.  And I believed it utterly, and saw no way out.  I thought, well that's it, because I can see no way that I will let go of this.  But that turned out to be the first step, really feeling how earnestly I wanted the security.  I suddenly had a new compassion for that desire for security, and began to see its origins in a way I had not before.  This helped me see for real what it was that I was avoiding (as opposed to just having mental hypotheses about it).  Then I could apply ACT-like practices that allowed me to feel that which I had been avoiding with my attachment to apparent security.  Then, it began to shift of its own accord.  It's still in process.Hope that's helpful.Molly Hi,  Your post resonated with me because after being agrophobic for over 20 years this is a choice I have yet to fully embrace. I kind of tip toe round the edges (just in case) I have made gains but still pull back from the full and total willingness thing. My mind has a kind of internal dialoug that goes something like this, 'yes I would like to do that but I know I will feel crap if I do it - is it worth the effort', and then ' God I'm hopeless, I know all this ACT stuff but STILL make the wrong choice!' Still prefering the pain and avoidance of keeping to the familiar rather than taking a leap into fresh air. So added to my pain of avoidance I have the pain of guilt as well! So my question is, what if you find yourself 50/50 split between wanting to take the bull by the horns and go for it - (for me that might mean walking further or driving out of comfort zone and 1001 other little limitations) or deciding that the pain that comes with that choice is MORE painful than the choice to stay stuck. How can I move forward out of that stop/start mentality? How can I let go of the guilt surrounding this issue? And one more point, I tell myself that I am already leading a valued life -which I believe I am, so why go through all the pain to gain more, if I am content where I am? Which I am 65% of the time. Is my brain hardwired to avoid? Simone  [ACT_for_the_ Public] Re:Practicalities?Carolyn, thank you for the good idea. It is a starting point,definitely. When the stakes are higher, though, such as a person wanting to flyoverseas to attend a wedding (that they really want to go to asopposed to feeling obliged), for example, would an ACT therapist workto help someone achieve that? Or would the therapist perhaps help theperson accept NOT going if that was the upshot? I guess what I'm wondering is, as a person who moderates a messageboard filled with people looking for support with healing from thelimitations that seem to come from "fear of fear" and all theaccompanying symptoms, is there a "best" approach? In CBT, etc., onewould be looking for ideas in symptom management, at least. With ACT,what would be the approach---ultimate ly? Are these situations inwhich a therapist might approach it multi-dimensionally ?Thanks all!PatIf I were trying to deal with agoraphobia and the > need to be near a toilet, I would start with the closest fast foodjoint--for > some coffee or a treat.> > CarolynYahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try it now.