Re: hair facts & truth in advertising ???

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

>

> I am truly your student, and again apologize for starting this discussion

> if

> it offended anyone. However, had I not brought it up (disorganized and

> all),

> it would have been too easy to hold onto unreasonable assumption.

Surely no one is offended...I can't imagine why they would be. These are all

perfectly legititmate cosmetic concerns and questions.

>

> I have two+ more questions (but no more debate) ... honesty and integrity

> are

> very important to me, and I do not wish to spread lies. I'm the type of

> courtship dancer who tells the guy to take it or leave it (because I know

> it's nice) vs. the type who woos with baked goods - especially when I don't

>

> normally bake

>

You do come across as being direct and honest and believing that integrity is

important

> I'm sold on soap-based shampoo bars and wish to sell my customers on them

> (duh) without spreading the lies ... prior to using soap-based shampoo bars

>

> myself, I had switched to products made with gentler surfactants (from

> 'natural' sources, etc.). They were admittedly much nicer, but I still had

>

> the horrid itching. Thinking maybe it could be the " other " ingredients, I

> tried a no-frills, gentle clarifying shampoo ... that one proved to cause

> the

> least amount of itching of any, but my hair couldn't tolerate it, and my

> scalp still itched (chronic itch, deep in the layers of skin ... nothing

> visible to professionals causing it).

Then this is your own truth, isn't it? This is based on your experience and

was quite real for you. You can speak truth from your experiences.

One thing to consider of course are the chemicals/ingredients in the gentle

clarifying shampoo?

>

> If water is such a great hydrator, how could the clarifying shampoo have

> left

> it so dry and damaged?

Water is definitely a hydrator and is only a part of the clarifying shampoo.

How about the remainder of the ingredients?

I rinsed a lot and, regardless of whether I applied

> conditioners (rinse-out or leave-in) or oils, the hair was very rough and

> dried, frizzier than normal. I read that water breaks down hydrogen bonds

> which is why we must take more care with wet hair than with dry.

> Meanwhile,

> aren't we supposed to hydrate the hair shaft to maintain flexibility?

> Wet

> hair is not frizzy, but we're told to completely dry hair and seal out

> moisture.

????? Again, the shampoo does not sound like it was " working " for you. I've

never heard of completely drying hair to seal out moisture. ?????

>

> Since then, I've use mediocre to okay soap-based shampoos (for over 2 years

>

> now) and plan to make what I hope will be a great one in the very near

> future

> ... but the scalp itching is gone (unless I use one with too high a

> concentration of coconut oil). My scalp actually feels great, and my hair

> is

> not only less dried and damaged, it's actually stronger and more

> conditioned.

> Some days I use no conditioning agents at all, other days I apply a little

> jojoba or a hair butter, and still other days I use aloe juice on the

> shafts

> prior to the oils (that's when it turns out the best). It seems that the

> aloe both super-hydrates the shaft and volumizes my hair, but also seems to

>

> lay the cuticle down (I know it's slightly acidic), because the frizzing is

>

> so much less (if at all) and my hair literally can shine after ...

This is obviously " working " for you....and your hair. From all that I've

read and experienced, I can't figure out why??? But one thing you mention

could be the key--the slightly acidic final rinse.

There are many, many folks that believe their shampoo bars are excellent for

hair care. Again, I can't understand why........but then maybe that's not

very important either

>

> Also, I not only read that water breaks down hydrogen bonds, but that using

> a

> high-pH product such as soap breaks down the ionic bonds also (and that the

>

> cuticle fully opens during that). Meanwhile, I also read that both bonds

> are

> restored, as is the pH of hair, upon its drying. So, using soap-based

> shampoo bars that make my hair more vulnerable, yet taking a little extra

> care during that process, is yielding better results ...

>

> QUESTION(s) #1 ... PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS - what does our hair

> need,

> what happens to hair through the washing processes, etc ??? Also, if

> vinegar

> is so good for softening (eating) callouses off our feet, wouldn't it also

> " eat " at our hair cuticle? How acidic is okay ???

>

I am hoping that our resident hair care expert will jump in any moment

Maurice??

Skin and hair are slightly acidic and common sense alone tells me that we

should use products (typically on a regular basis) that are within a pH range

of maybe 4.8 to 7.5 (just guessing here). There are always exceptions. From

the studies that I have read, pH doesn't appear to make a whole heck of alot

of difference on healthy adult skin (excluding infant, excluding elderly or

damaged). Search Medline and you can see some of the info.

But it looks like it makes a bigger difference in hair care. I tried to do a

search on some articles that I've seen and couldn't bring up anything that

had an abstract...so Maurice if there is something you have handy...help us

out!

There's tons of anecdotal data and industry reports and that sort of thing,

but I wanted to find something that is more definitive and reliable.

> QUESTION #2 ... HOW DO I APPROACH THIS IN ADVERTISING, INSTRUCTING,

> INFORMING ??? I feel that I need to confirm or correct my information,

> then

> provide this information to customers so that they do not harm their hair

> if

> they try my product (using the how-to-wash-and-style instructions and

> about-soap-based-shampoos avenues) ... without scaring them away. I'm

> starting with the relatives (the most extreme test market in any family)

> who

> are all willing to try my products and provide feedback (can't get that

> kind

> of honesty anywhere else).

In cosmetics it should be fairly simple. Cosmetics don't make health type

claims anyway. If it were me, I would search for all that I could find on the

subject. Then I would do as you are doing and 'test' the product. Then draw

your conclusions and market your product appropriately and within the fda

cosmetic guidelines.

Susie from Timbuktoo, SC may truly believe her Shea Butter Cream is

moisturizing and conditioning and feels silky soft and is allowed to market

her product that way. I may try it and have a totally different impression.

But, it is still her own truth. I don't know that there will ever be a

perfect product that everyone feels exactly the same way about.

As many folks know, I make alot of shampoo I came up with two formulas

recently and I like both of them. My husband tried them and loved the

gel-like one with the botanical extract, but the creamy one with SCI noodles

made him 'nervous'...he kept confusing it with the hair conditioner My

daughter tried them and loved the creamy one with the SCI noodles---said it

is her absolute favorite, but she didn't like the gel-like one as well.

The moral of this story is that you will never please everyone all the time

with the same product.

So, , I hope this helps a little. If I come across more interesting

information regarding pH, hair care, etc. I'll be sure to post it.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie and all,

The " gentle " clarifying shampoo (claiming to be oil free yet having essential

oils listed, but not which ones) ... have the old bottle with my " other

stuff " in it ... the ingredient label reads:

purified water, sodium laureth sulfate from coconut oil, sea salt, vinegar,

chamomile extract, methyl and propylparaben, and fragrance from essential

oils

The completely dry hair idea is from the many ads advising us to use

silicone-containing products to " seal out moisture " to control frizz ... my

question is whether there is truth in their reasoning that, as the hair shaft

soaks in humidity, it will coil up and frizz ???

The reason soap-based shampooing is working for my hair is that it does leave

my hair much softer and also stronger than it was before. I'd love an

explanation on that one, too (to use, of course). My water is softened - not

with salt, but through plastic pellet filtering - and I turn my

water-pressure dial on my handheld shower attachment UP (feels so good) to

wet my hair as well as to rinse it. I don't use vinegar or lemon rinses

(they feel gummy, sticky, yuck to me, and I worry whether or not they'll

weaken the hair cuticle). I do, however, unwrap my hair from the towel and

use aloe juice as a leave-on ...

IMO, shampoo bars are excellent for hair care because I can trust that my

hair is completely clean (not coated with waxes for shine that only build up

.... I hate the idea of product buildup and switching products to keep up, and

cannot understand why anyone likes this). Also, I understand that the pH

returns to normal after my hair is dry ... and my hair feels so much nicer.

It's a different feel, but those of us who like this would describe it as a

" truly clean, my-real-hair " feeling. The reason it must be so hard to

understand this seems to revolve mainly around that pH issue with the

rinsability-in-hard-water issue appearing to be a close second. If that is

accurate, it's an honest comparative to present to customers as they decide

what they want ...

I also will need to know how to advise those with damaged hair and those

who've colored their hair, as I've heard both extremes with regard to people

washing with high pH products and stripping all the color they'd just put in

as well as people washing with soap-based shampoos and having no change in

the from-the-box hair color.

<<From the studies that I have read, pH doesn't appear to make a whole heck

of alot

of difference on healthy adult skin (excluding infant, excluding elderly or

damaged)>>  That was also my understanding several months ago when discussing

the pH thing here ...

<<But it looks like (pH) makes a bigger difference in hair care. I tried to

do a

search on some articles that I've seen >>

Yes, me too ... there's a lot of information and misinformation ... which

makes this a very confusing area to research

<<... If I come across more interesting information regarding pH, hair care,

etc. I'll be sure to post it>>

Thanks, I truly appreciate this. -

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Maurice ...

<Usually Clarifying Shampoos are K.I.S.S. shampoos ... designed to remove

styling aid residue and enviromental stuff than can biuld up on the hair. 

They are not designed to be gentle or moisturizing ... When you shampoo with

most typical commercial shampoos in the marketplace, you are cleaning the

hair and depositing some substantive conditioners to the hair.>

Typically, do these substantive conditioners coat the hair (like a wax)?

What are they and what do they do?

<... I have no idea what your hair feels like or looks like but I can

envision a build up of insolubel soaps build up on your hair making it look

shinier and thicker.>

I am questioning this in form of argument ... my experience with product

buildup has historically resulted in dry, limp hair with more frizzing.

Shininess can be enhanced, but also exists when the cuticle lays down (which,

in my case, isn't very often ... I have wavy hair that bears about 4

differing circumferences / types of curl ... ranging from a " soft C " shape to

a full 1 " coil). Its texture is medium, it's rather densely thick, and mix

all that up with a layered cut I'm trying to grow out and those stubborn wiry

gray hairs in a few select patches. It seems that, since I've used soaps for

2 years and didn't see the kind of shine (even applying oil) that I see after

using the aloe juice ... nor has it once become limp or more frizzy than

" usual, " it's unlikely that soap buildup is present ... remember, I'm asking,

but how can I find out for sure?

<Water in the form of water or humidity will break/soften hydrogen bond in

the hair.  Hopefully, you'll never seal out the moisture ... a pH above or

below ~5.5 will swell the hair ... 5.5 is ideal.>

So, if aloe is approximately 4.5 (???) and we know it hydrates well, it's

safe to assume it hydrates the cortex. Also, based upon what you've just

said about not sealing out moisture, this hydration is a plus for hair??? Is

it also therefore safe to assume that the estimated 4.5 pH is a much

safer-for-hair acidic " balancer " than vinegar or lemon ???

Thank you, also, for reposting Lucy's letter ... it is here that I read this

(only I printed it off this time). I have a few more questions to clarify my

understanding ...

<... The cuticle is made up of several layers of cells, one  overlapping the

other, much like shingles on a roof.  In a human hair, you  will usually have

7 to 12 layers of these over lapping cuticle cells.>

I have been researching ethnic hair differences, and wonder what information

is available on that ... as well as specific hair-care differences?

<...Chemical processing will also destroy many of the CO-VALENT BONDS found

in the cortex. This irreversible damage to the cortex will make the

irrevocably  hair weaker.>

Could someone explain CO-VALENT BONDS and how the weakening is irrevocable?

<Another type of bond found in the hair are the HYDROGEN BONDS.  They are 

very weak bonds but are very numerous.  Hydrogen bonds are easily broken 

with water but are easily re-formed when the hair dries out. So when you

" set " your hair when it's wet, your hair will retain a curl when  it dries. 

Also, when you blow dry you hair " straight " , your hair will  straighten out. 

Until you go outside on a humid day, your curl will droop  or your frizzies

will come back. You should be especially careful when combing and brushing

your hair when it's wet.  Since the hydrogen bonds are temporally destroyed,

wet hair is  weaker and more subject to damage ... The third types of

chemical bonds found in the hair are IONIC BONDS.  These  bonds are not as

strong as co-valent bonds but they are stronger than the  hydrogen bonds. 

Ionic bonds are weakened when the hair is made too acidic  or too alkaline. 

The ionic bonds, sometimes called salt bonds, are a series  of positive (+)

and negative (-) charges.  Like charges attract, unlike  charges repel. 

Because of this, the hair swells when it is too acidic or alkaline.>

Could someone explain HYDROGEN BONDS and what they do to keep hair strong,

and also the hair swelling when IONIC BONDS are weakened ... I'm assuming she

means the cortex as well as the cuticle opening further. And a simple

question does the cuticle open when the hair is wetted and/or when the

correct 5.5 pH product is used?

<The ideal is a pH around 5.5 to 6.5.  If you've had an alkaline chemical 

process, you should be definitely be using an acidic conditioner or rinse to 

bring the hair back into shape, ... If you are using an alkaline soap to

shampoo your hair, be very careful when  the hair is wet.  You've weakened

the ionic bonds and hydrogen bonds.   Always use a good acidic conditioner to

strengthen your hair and to minimize subsequent mechanical damage.>

IF vinegar and lemon rinses in right concentration are truly safe for the

hair cuticle, in what proportions would we need to mix them with water so

that the ideal pH is obtained after using a soap? And do these truly help

rinse off soap residue (or is that part myth vs. the pH restoration that

makes sense)?

<... Conditioner and rinses actually lubricate the hair making the hair

easier to comb ... less mechanical damage ... condition your hair properly>

This sounds like two areas of finishing for different hair types ... please

correct these assumptions if needed: If conditioners are similar to oils

like jojoba (but lightened in an emulsion with water), then essentially I

understand the lubricating, softening, and somewhat occlusive nature that

they provide. If by rinses you're referring to the vinegar and lemon rinses

in right concentration, I can understand the assistance with reducing snarls

if it helps to lay the cuticle back down, but don't see the lubrication part

???

Again, thank you. I've actually had people pose all these questions to me.

-

[Guest guest]

>I am truly your student, and again apologize for starting this discussion if

>it offended anyone. However, had I not brought it up (disorganized and all),

>it would have been too easy to hold onto unreasonable assumption.

We love open minds that thirst for knowledge.

>If water is such a great hydrator, how could the clarifying shampoo have left

>it so dry and damaged?

Usually Clarifying Shampoos are K.I.S.S. shampoos. Usually very " clarifying " .

They are designed to remove styling aid residue and enviromental stuff than can

biuld up on

the hair. They are not designed to be gentle or moisturizing.

> I rinsed a lot and, regardless of whether I applied

>conditioners (rinse-out or leave-in) or oils, the hair was very rough and

>dried, frizzier than normal.

I have no idea what you have been doing to your hair nor what

conditioners/rinses that you may have used so I am unable to comment.

> I read that water breaks down hydrogen bonds

>which is why we must take more care with wet hair than with dry. Meanwhile,

>aren't we supposed to hydrate the hair shaft to maintain flexibility? Wet

>hair is not frizzy, but we're told to completely dry hair and seal out

>moisture.

Water in the form of water or humidity will break/soften hydrogen bond in the

hair. Hopefully, you'll never seal out the moisture.

>Since then, I've use mediocre to okay soap-based shampoos (for over 2 years

>now) and plan to make what I hope will be a great one in the very near future

>... but the scalp itching is gone (unless I use one with too high a

>concentration of coconut oil). My scalp actually feels great, and my hair is

>not only less dried and damaged, it's actually stronger and more conditioned.

> Some days I use no conditioning agents at all, other days I apply a little

>jojoba or a hair butter, and still other days I use aloe juice on the shafts

>prior to the oils (that's when it turns out the best). It seems that the

>aloe both super-hydrates the shaft and volumizes my hair, but also seems to

>lay the cuticle down (I know it's slightly acidic), because the frizzing is

>so much less (if at all) and my hair literally can shine after ...

I have no idea what your hair feels like or looks like but I can envision a

build up of insolubel soaps build up on your hair making it look shinier and

thicker.

>Also, I not only read that water breaks down hydrogen bonds, but that using a

>high-pH product such as soap breaks down the ionic bonds also (and that the

>cuticle fully opens during that).

This is also true of very acidic rinses. a pH above or below ~5.5 will swell

the hair.

> Meanwhile, I also read that both bonds are

>restored, as is the pH of hair, upon its drying. So, using soap-based

>shampoo bars that make my hair more vulnerable, yet taking a little extra

>care during that process, is yielding better results ...

Maybe.

>QUESTION(s) #1 ... PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS - what does our hair need,

>what happens to hair through the washing processes, etc ???

When you shampoo with most typical commercial shampoos in the marketplace, you

are cleaning the hair and depositing some substantive conditioners to the hair.

> Also, if vinegar

>is so good for softening (eating) callouses off our feet, wouldn't it also

> " eat " at our hair cuticle? How acidic is okay ???

5.5 is ideal.

>

>QUESTION #2 ... HOW DO I APPROACH THIS IN ADVERTISING, INSTRUCTING,

>INFORMING ??? I feel that I need to confirm or correct my information, then

>provide this information to customers so that they do not harm their hair if

>they try my product (using the how-to-wash-and-style instructions and

>about-soap-based-shampoos avenues) ... without scaring them away. I'm

>starting with the relatives (the most extreme test market in any family) who

>are all willing to try my products and provide feedback (can't get that kind

>of honesty anywhere else).

Here's an old post from Lucy, the Dark Angel:

From: Dark Angel

To:

Subject: Hair Care Info

Date: Saturday, September 30, 2000 8:29 AM

The hair shaft is composed of two major parts, the inside and the outside.

Simple enough?

The inside of the hair is called the cortex and the outside is called the

cuticle. A very good analogy would be a piece of electrical cord. On the

inside, we have a bunch of

fine wires twisted together and on the outside; we have the rubber or plastic

insulation.

The insulation protects the fine wires on the inside just as the cuticle

protects the cortex. The cuticle is made up of several layers of cells, one

overlapping the other, much

like shingles on a roof. In a human hair, you will usually have 7 to 12 layers

of these over lapping cuticle cells.

The cuticle cells are oriented away from the scalp, so when you comb or brush

the hair, you are brushing or combing in the direction of the cells.

Getting back to our electrical cord analogy. The strength of the electrical

cord is due to the fine wires on the inside, and this applies to the human

hair. The strength of the

human hair is primarily due to the cortex.

If you scrape the insulation off the wire, you'll soon expose the fine wires.

The same ting happens when you scrape off enough of the cuticle cells from the

hair, you'll

expose the cortex and you'll have split ends. Since the hair is the oldest at

the ends, that where we have the fewest cuticle cells.

So, if you do not condition your hair properly, do not comb and/or do not brush

you hair properly, because of friction, you'll loose these protective cuticle

cells very quickly

and have split ends very quickly. Improper combing and brushing will also

cause uneven wear causing roughness in the cuticle cells. Ideally, the cuticle

cells lie flat on the

hair shaft; Flat cuticle cells make the hair shiny. Rough cuticle cells will

make the hair dull. Smooth surfaces reflect more light than a rough surface.

Did you ever notice

that your hair is shiny near the root area compared to the ends?

The cuticle can also be damaged trough chemical processing, perms, hair color,

bleaching and hair relaxing. Chemical processing will cause the hair's cuticle

to lift up

making it rough (less shiny) and more susceptible to mechanical damage due to

improper combing and brushing.

Chemical processing will also destroy many of the CO-VALENT BONDS found in the

cortex. This irreversible damage to the cortex will make the irrevocably hair

weaker.

Another type of bond found in the hair are the HYDROGEN BONDS. They are very

weak bonds but are very numerous. Hydrogen bonds are easily broken with water

but

are easily re-formed when the hair dries out.

So when you " set " your hair when it's wet, your hair will retain a curl when it

dries. Also, when you blow dry you hair " straight " , your hair will straighten

out. Until you go

outside on a humid day, your curl will droop or your frizzies will come back.

You should be especially careful when combing and brushing your hair when it's

wet. Since the hydrogen bonds are temporally destroyed, wet hair is weaker and

more

subject to damage.

The third types of chemical bonds found in the hair are IONIC BONDS. These

bonds are not as strong as co-valent bonds but they are stronger than the

hydrogen bonds.

Ionic bonds are weakened when the hair is made too acidic or too alkaline. The

ionic bonds, sometimes called salt bonds, are a series of positive (+) and

negative (-)

charges. Like charges attract, unlike charges repel. Because of this, the

hair swells when it is too acidic or alkaline.

The ideal is a pH around 5.5 to 6.5. If you've had an alkaline chemical

process, you should be definitely be using an acidic conditioner or rinse to

bring the hair back into

shape,

Some tips for healthier looking hair:

Use a conditioner or a very good rinse. Conditioner and rinses actually

lubricate the hair making the hair easier to comb. The easier the hair is to

comb, the less

mechanical damage. Remember, if you reduce the mechanical damage you'll reduce

the cuticle damage.

When you're combing your hair, always start with a wide-tooth comb and start

combing from the ends first. When the hair tangles, you have one hair rubbing

on another,

which will also damage the hair. Over stretching the hair can also cause

irreversible damage. DON'T pull through those snarls. You can finish the

combing using

progressively finer tooth combs and finally a brush.

If you are using an alkaline soap to shampoo your hair, be very careful when

the hair is wet. You've weakened the ionic bonds and hydrogen bonds. Always

use a good

acidic conditioner to strengthen your hair and to minimize subsequent

mechanical damage.

Better living through chemistry.

Lucy

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

><Usually Clarifying Shampoos are K.I.S.S. shampoos ... designed to remove

>styling aid residue and enviromental stuff than can biuld up on the hair.ÿ

>They are not designed to be gentle or moisturizing ... When you shampoo with

>most typical commercial shampoos in the marketplace, you are cleaning the

>hair and depositing some substantive conditioners to the hair.>

>

>Typically, do these substantive conditioners coat the hair (like a wax)?

>What are they and what do they do?

They are usually cationic polymers that attached themselves to the anionic sites

on the hairshaft. These cationic conditioners reduce combing forces (aka make

the hair

easier to comb.

><... I have no idea what your hair feels like or looks like but I can

>envision a build up of insolubel soaps build up on your hair making it look

>shinier and thicker.>

>

>I am questioning this in form of argument ... my experience with product

>buildup has historically resulted in dry, limp hair with more frizzing.

Yes.

>Shininess can be enhanced, but also exists when the cuticle lays down (which,

>in my case, isn't very often ...

If the hair shaft is smooth, it will appear shiny.

>I have wavy hair that bears about 4

>differing circumferences / types of curl ... ranging from a " soft C " shape to

>a full 1 " coil). Its texture is medium, it's rather densely thick, and mix

>all that up with a layered cut I'm trying to grow out and those stubborn wiry

>gray hairs in a few select patches. It seems that, since I've used soaps for

>2 years and didn't see the kind of shine (even applying oil) that I see after

>using the aloe juice ... nor has it once become limp or more frizzy than

> " usual, " it's unlikely that soap buildup is present ... remember, I'm asking,

>but how can I find out for sure?

I have no idea.

><Water in the form of water or humidity will break/soften hydrogen bond in

>the hair.ÿ Hopefully, you'll never seal out the moisture ... a pH above or

>below ~5.5 will swell the hair ... 5.5 is ideal.>

>

>So, if aloe is approximately 4.5 (???) and we know it hydrates well, it's

>safe to assume it hydrates the cortex.

What kind of aloe are you taking about? Are you buying your " aloe " at WalMart

or from a vendor of Aloe Vera products?

> Also, based upon what you've just

>said about not sealing out moisture, this hydration is a plus for hair???

I can see any justification to seal out the moisture nor is there any

justification for over moisturization. I can see if you are in a dry area, or

dry season, you may want to add

" moisture balance " into the hair for cosmetic purpose.

> Is

>it also therefore safe to assume that the estimated 4.5 pH is a much

>safer-for-hair acidic " balancer " than vinegar or lemon ???

Yep.

>Thank you, also, for reposting Lucy's letter ... it is here that I read this

>(only I printed it off this time). I have a few more questions to clarify my

>understanding ...

>

><... The cuticle is made up of several layers of cells, oneÿ overlapping the

>other, much like shingles on a roof.ÿ In a human hair, youÿ will usually have

>7 to 12 layers of these over lapping cuticle cells.>

>

>I have been researching ethnic hair differences, and wonder what information

>is available on that ... as well as specific hair-care differences?

I'm not sure, but I'll bet it came from a book written by Dr. Clarence Robbins,

titled Chemical and Physical Behavior of Human Hair. An EXCELLENT book.

><...Chemical processing will also destroy many of the CO-VALENT BONDS found

>inÿthe cortex. This irreversible damage to the cortex will make the

>irrevocablyÿ hair weaker.>

>

>Could someone explain CO-VALENT BONDS and how the weakening is irrevocable?

Co-valent bonds are very strong bonds. These are the bonds that hold most of

" stuff " together.

Hair is a protien called keratin. If you had a super powerfull microscope and

looked a two keratin fibers, you would see a ladder. A ladder of amino acids.

The rungs of the

ladder are formed by the amino acid cysteine.

The rungs (cysteines) of the keratin ladder can be broken by oxidizers or

reducing agents.

If the hair is reduced (as in most permenant waves), the cysteine rungs are

broken and the hair is very weak. The hair is given a new shape/curl and then

about 90% of the

cysteine rungs are reformed by the " developer " , usually a weak hydrogen peroxide

solution.

When you break the cysteine rungs with an oxidizing agent such as 20 or 30

volume hydrogen peroxide, the cysteine rungs can not be reformed. The hair has

been

weakened. If the hair has not been turned into mush, the result is a bunch of

anionic sites left on and through the hair shaft. These anionic (-)sites

attract cationic (+)

molecules.

><Another type of bond found in the hair are the HYDROGEN BONDS.ÿ They areÿ

>very weak bonds but are very numerous.ÿ Hydrogen bonds are easily brokenÿ

>with water but are easily re-formed when the hair dries out. So when you

> " set " your hair when it's wet, your hair will retain a curl whenÿ it dries.ÿ

>Also, when you blow dry you hair " straight " , your hair willÿ straighten out.ÿ

>Until you go outside on a humid day, your curl will droopÿ or your frizzies

>will come back. You should be especially careful when combing and brushing

>your hair whenÿit's wet.ÿ Since the hydrogen bonds are temporally destroyed,

>wet hair isÿ weaker and more subject to damage ... The third types of

>chemical bonds found in the hair are IONIC BONDS.ÿ Theseÿ bonds are not as

>strong as co-valent bonds but they are stronger than theÿ hydrogen bonds.ÿ

>Ionic bonds are weakened when the hair is made too acidicÿ or too alkaline.ÿ

>The ionic bonds, sometimes called salt bonds, are a seriesÿ of positive (+)

>and negative (-) charges.ÿ Like charges attract, unlikeÿ charges repel.ÿ

>Because of this, the hair swells when it is too acidic orÿalkaline.>

>Could someone explain HYDROGEN BONDS and what they do to keep hair strong,

Try searching Google for

" hydrogen bonds " hair

>and also the hair swelling when IONIC BONDS are weakened ... I'm assuming she

>means the cortex as well as the cuticle opening further.

All protiens have a isoionic point. The isoionic point for hair is approx. 5.5.

At the isoionic point, you have a balance of +'s and -'s. Opposites attract.

When you change

the pH above or below 5.5 the hair will swell. It's really cool to see this

under a microscope.

> And a simple

>question does the cuticle open when the hair is wetted

No for a normal hair.

> and/or when the

>correct 5.5 pH product is used?

No. But if the pH is high, you'll see the hair shaft swell and the cuticle

cells curl up at the edges.

>IF vinegar and lemon rinses in right concentration are truly safe for the

>hair cuticle, in what proportions would we need to mix them with water so

>that the ideal pH is obtained after using a soap? And do these truly help

>rinse off soap residue (or is that part myth vs. the pH restoration that

>makes sense)?

I made an " acid rinse " once using alpha hydroxy acids. The client said the

product worked. I was not involved in the evaluation.

The best way to find your answer is with a pH meter and experiments.

>

><... Conditioner and rinses actuallyÿlubricate the hair making the hair

>easier to comb ... less mechanical damage ... condition your hair properly>

>

>This sounds like two areas of finishing for different hair types ... please

>correct these assumptions if needed: If conditioners are similar to oils

>like jojoba (but lightened in an emulsion with water), then essentially I

>understand the lubricating, softening, and somewhat occlusive nature that

>they provide. If by rinses you're referring to the vinegar and lemon rinses

>in right concentration, I can understand the assistance with reducing snarls

>if it helps to lay the cuticle back down, but don't see the lubrication part

>???

A total failure of communication. The " lubrication " occurs at a molecular

level. The fatty chain of the cationic (+) conditioner acts as the molecular

lubricant. It has nothing

to due with oils or being occlusive.

When I think of rinses, I usually don't think of " acid rinses " . I think of

surface conditioners. Usually used to reduce combing forces. True hair

conditioning is not achieved.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi and All,

> Hi Angie and all,

>

> The " gentle " clarifying shampoo (claiming to be oil free yet having

> essential

> oils listed, but not which ones) ... have the old bottle with my " other

> stuff " in it ... the ingredient label reads:

> purified water, sodium laureth sulfate from coconut oil, sea salt, vinegar,

>

> chamomile extract, methyl and propylparaben, and fragrance from essential

> oils

>

This is absolutely not what I would consider a gentle shampoo....even when

" gentle " is a very subjective description. Not by any stretch of the

imagination could this be a " gentle " shampoo. Clarifying perhaps....I can

very easily see why your hair felt dry and stripped of it's natural oils.

From these ingredients, you will get a product that will strip the

hair....plus the ingredient listing isn't done properly, but we won't go

there.

To compare this shampoo, with other shampoos that contain surfactants,

conditioners or emollients, is like comparing apples and oranges---same

family, but very different.

> The completely dry hair idea is from the many ads advising us to use

> silicone-containing products to " seal out moisture " to control frizz ... my

>

> question is whether there is truth in their reasoning that, as the hair

> shaft

> soaks in humidity, it will coil up and frizz ???

I still don't understand why you would want to seal out moisture?? There are

ways to control frizz. I think a slightly acidic rinse/conditioner that is

cationic is your best bet. Proteins can help too.

>

> The reason soap-based shampooing is working for my hair is that it does

> leave

> my hair much softer and also stronger than it was before. I'd love an

> explanation on that one, too (to use, of course). My water is softened -

> not

> with salt, but through plastic pellet filtering - and I turn my

> water-pressure dial on my handheld shower attachment UP (feels so good) to

> wet my hair as well as to rinse it. I don't use vinegar or lemon rinses

> (they feel gummy, sticky, yuck to me, and I worry whether or not they'll

> weaken the hair cuticle). I do, however, unwrap my hair from the towel and

>

> use aloe juice as a leave-on ...

>

> IMO, shampoo bars are excellent for hair care because I can trust that my

> hair is completely clean (not coated with waxes for shine that only build

> up

> ... I hate the idea of product buildup and switching products to keep up,

> and

> cannot understand why anyone likes this). Also, I understand that the pH

> returns to normal after my hair is dry ... and my hair feels so much nicer.

>

> It's a different feel, but those of us who like this would describe it as a

>

> " truly clean, my-real-hair " feeling. The reason it must be so hard to

> understand this seems to revolve mainly around that pH issue with the

> rinsability-in-hard-water issue appearing to be a close second. If that is

>

> accurate, it's an honest comparative to present to customers as they decide

>

> what they want ...

>

> I also will need to know how to advise those with damaged hair and those

> who've colored their hair, as I've heard both extremes with regard to

> people

> washing with high pH products and stripping all the color they'd just put

> in

> as well as people washing with soap-based shampoos and having no change in

> the from-the-box hair color.

>

Here is my honest opinion, . The facts about hair care don't really

support the use of liquid soap or shampoo bars, but it appears that you

really like and want to use and sell shampoo bars anyway. I think you should

do that. As I mentioned in my last post...you have your own " truth " as we

all do. We base our own truth on various things. You have your own unique

experiences and belief system. The facts--as they appear--can be presented,

but it is up to each individual to interpret them and utilize the information

as they will. In health education/health promotion, I spent alot of time

presenting the facts about exercise, nutrition, smoking, safe sex, wearing

seat belts, etc. There are very real facts and data to support positive

health behavior changes, but still people will overeat, lead sedentary

lifestyles, smoke, have unsafe sex and won't wear their seatbelts. The

bottom line is that in spite of all the facts, all the models and theories of

behavior change, people will do what they choose to do and believe as they

choose to believe. We are all ultimately responsible for our own choices

which is as it should be.

I always try to be honest and present the facts as I see them. But I don't

consider it my place to tell anyone that they are wrong and I'm not much for

debating either. For anyone who has ever read the children's book--Ferdinand

the Lonely Bull....that's me...I'd rather be smelling the flowers

My best suggestion is the same as always...read the literature for yourself,

experiment, learn, learn, learn...then make your own decision based on what

you feel to be best for you.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie and all,

Thank you for looking at that ingredient label. Of course I didn't know

labelling when I bought it, but it's clearly way off ... just for laughs,

here's what their claim is:

" Natural ingredients cleanse your hair to a lustrous shine, Gently removes

build-up for color-treated, permed and damaged hair. Leaves hair feeling

revitalized and healthy looking. " Meanwhile, even I can look now at the

ingredients and sense it's not gentle, but it was so harsh there was no

luster, gentleness, or healthy look after using it ... IMO, it's actually a

good thing my hair is healthy and wasn't color treated !!!

> I still don't understand why you would want to seal out moisture?? There

> are

> ways to control frizz. I think a slightly acidic rinse/conditioner that is

> cationic is your best bet. Proteins can help too.

I don't want to seal out moisture today, but there was a time when I'd tried

those products " explaining " that by so doing your hair would " relax. " I'm

finding less frizz with the aloe juice than with the " no-frizz " serums of

that silicone family ... and you and Maurice are confirming that the cortex

should maintain a level of moisture ... which explains the use of castor oils

and hydrogenated castor oils in haircare products (which I've also heard

assist the bonds and strengthen them, imparting to the hair more elasticity

and strength).

Would you mind explaining " cationic " ??? Also, I've been visiting your site

and looking hard at the hydrolized oats - what action would this have on

hair? Also, does it come as a powder or a clear liquid (I think you told me

it's liquid)?

> I'm not much for debating either.

I also hate debates which is why I spent so much time apologizing on this

thread ... I have a hard time asking questions without it sounding like an

argument, but only because I usually don't need to ask questions unless, like

has been revealed to me here, the " facet " of the truth I'd been exposed to

had been presented as the whole gem and I'm now being exposed to the other

side of the gem (which looks totally foreign).

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Thank you for looking at that ingredient label. Of course I didn't know

> labelling when I bought it, but it's clearly way off ... just for laughs,

> here's what their claim is:

> " Natural ingredients cleanse your hair to a lustrous shine, Gently removes

> build-up for color-treated, permed and damaged hair. Leaves hair feeling

> revitalized and healthy looking. " Meanwhile, even I can look now at the

> ingredients and sense it's not gentle, but it was so harsh there was no

> luster, gentleness, or healthy look after using it ... IMO, it's actually a

>

> good thing my hair is healthy and wasn't color treated !!!

Caveat emptor, eh? We all live and learn. The manufacturer may really

believe that about the shampoo. Or maybe it's just marketing.

Here is my thought. The alkyl sulfates have been around for a while and do

serve a very useful purpose as we have said. Back when our mothers went to

the beauty shop every week to wash out the hair spray, muck and grime from

their hair that had accumulated over the week they needed something to

really, really clean. Nowadays many of us wash our hair daily or at least

more than once a week---so to use a strong cleanser is more than many of us

need. At times it may be useful, but I don't think it's needed for everyday.

The thing with the alkyl sulfates is that the good formulators use them

along with other surfactants and conditioning ingredients to make a shampoo

that is used on a regular basis. Very nice shampoos can be made that way.

There is art and science in formulating a nice shampoo...and there are many

ways to accomplish this.

>

> Would you mind explaining " cationic " ??? Also, I've been visiting your

> site

> and looking hard at the hydrolized oats - what action would this have on

> hair? Also, does it come as a powder or a clear liquid (I think you told

> me

> it's liquid)?

" Cationic " means positive electrical charge. Our hair and skin have a

negative charge. The damaged sites on the hair tend to have even more of a

negative charge. The positive or 'cationic conditioners' are attracted to

the hair and skin and in particular, the damaged areas.

The hydrolyzed oats are from croda and are known by cromoist-025. They are

contain both protein and carbohydrate. <A

HREF= " http://www.crodausa.com/pchitlist2.lasso?-database=crdProducts & -layout=CGI\

& -response=pcdetail2.htm & -recordID=12599464 & -search & -token=46294 " >

http://www.crodausa.com/pchitlist2.lasso?-database=crdProducts & -layout=CGI &

-response=pcdetail2.htm & -recordID=12599464 & -search & -token=46294</A>

Hope this helps.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/24/2003 10:43:48 AM Central Daylight Time,

AngiesHerbarie@... writes:

> " Cationic " means positive electrical charge. Our hair and skin have a

> negative charge. The damaged sites on the hair tend to have even more of a

>

> negative charge. The positive or 'cationic conditioners' are attracted to

> the hair and skin and in particular, the damaged areas.

What might be some examples of cationic conditioners, both " syndet " and

" natural " (man, I feel both words are meaningless anymore LOL)? Would aloe,

hydrolized oats, or hair oils contribute any positive charges?

Also, thanks for more on the surfactants ... in that historic perspective, it

makes a lot of sense now (I remember the ratted beehives that stayed unwashed

because they costed so much ... I'm wondering if Jackie was probably having

hers done more often and much more gently).

This does all help tremendously. I feel better prepared to gather all these

notes and prepare a comparative / take-your-pick type of flyer (or something)

.... thank you.

-

[Guest guest]

At 10:28 AM 4-24-03 -0400, you wrote:

>Thank you for looking at that ingredient label. Of course I didn't know

>labelling when I bought it, but it's clearly way off ... just for laughs,

>here's what their claim is:

> " Natural ingredients cleanse your hair to a lustrous shine, Gently removes

>build-up for color-treated, permed and damaged hair. Leaves hair feeling

>revitalized and healthy looking. " Meanwhile, even I can look now at the

>ingredients and sense it's not gentle, but it was so harsh there was no

>luster, gentleness, or healthy look after using it ... IMO, it's actually a

>good thing my hair is healthy and wasn't color treated !!!

Clarifying shampoos aren't meant to be used everyday. Just once in a while

to get rid of gook and styling products that build up on the hair. If

there is a lot of buildup on the hair then it doesn't look glossy and

shiny, but if you use the clarifying shampoo to get rid of all that stuff

then your hair will be glossy and shiny again. If you don't use a lot of

styling products or conditioners, then you probably don't need clarifying

shampoo.

[Guest guest]

-

I think you are doing interesting research - one place you may want

to look for info is Consumer Reports - many years ago they did

shampoo comparisons becuz of the cost differences and they claim

there was no difference between shampoos for the most part - well,

I really beg to differ - I have beautiful, long, brunette hair which

has always been very shiny - I used Suave shampoo most of my life-

and many others have I tried. While oil treatments always feel nice

washing my hair with an egg shampoo is just fine and I even used to

condition with mayonaise - if it wasn't for the awful smell I

probably still would, too! LOL I have't started experimenting making

shampoos yet, however, but I don;t like waxy build up either.Maybe

they have done a more comprehensice testing more recently - the one

I am referring to was probably done in the late 70's or early 80's -

yea - if you can count, you can imagine I am starting tp oget some

grays... and I don't know about you, but summer hair is very

different from winter hair! LOL

Willow

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/27/2003 11:01:31 PM Central Daylight Time,

lmdicenzo@... writes:

> Consumer Reports ... did shampoo comparisons ... the one I am referring to

> was probably done in the late 70's or early 80's - ... becuz of the cost

> differences and they claim there was no difference between shampoos for the

> most part - well, I really beg to differ ... I have't started

> experimenting making shampoos yet, however, but I don;t like waxy >> build

>> up either

Hi Willow ... I beg to differ with that one, too Suave builds up so

badly, the bottle I'm slowly using up washing lingerie (nice peachy

fragrance) has a buildup around the pour spout ... and whenever my husband or

boys use it once, they " develop " a sudden same-day case of waxy type dandruff

(in fact, it's been so consistent that, whenever I see that waxy dandruff, I

know they've used the Suave before I even confirm it by asking ... and it

gets worse when they stubbornly try to prove me wrong and scrub really hard

with it ).

> ... washing my hair with an egg shampoo is just fine and I even used to

> condition with mayonaise - if it wasn't for the awful smell I probably

> still would, too! LOL

I've wondered about egg shampoos and beer shampoos ... are they for oily

heads and adding volume? What do they do for hair and scalp?

> ... if you can count, you can imagine I am starting tp oget some grays...

I have those grays, too ... wiry little buggers! I do love it, though, when

they shine better than my still-brown hair (I've been blessed with the white

color of graying hair like my grandma's).

and I don't know about you, but summer hair is very different from winter

hair! LOL

It sure is! Summer brings frizzies and floppies, winter brings dull, dry

flyaways ... I agree with Maurice that we don't want to seal out moisture in

resisting these things. In fact, healthy hair needs to " hold " a percentage

of water (around 8%) ... what I don't know about any of the proteins (if

those are the answer) is whether they leave residue and build up?

Being caucasian, I've been learning a lot from a wonderful black lady about

many different types of hair and what is needed (some similarities, of

course, and some very different areas of concern) - including more about hair

water content, oils and butters, and in what cases you'd want to use one or

another.

-