Re: Re: Goat's Milk in Products

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/9/03 9:06:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, flame@...

writes:

> Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my question. Could you

> tell me how I would go about having testing done? I'm new to this end of

> creating body care products and I have no idea where to begin.

>

> I may decide along with others who have advised me that it isn't worth my

> time afterall

>

> Thanks again -

>

> Vicki Blair

>

>

Hi Vicki,

Don't give up yet! Even if you do not choose to sell your products, you can

certainly make them for your own enjoyment. It is important to read,

experiment, ask questions and just learn as much as you can. A good place to

start is with our cosmeticinfo files and archives. There are volumes! A good

place to start is with the FDA's standards/regulations for cosmetics. The

link is in our files somewhere I believe. Learn GMP---Good Manufacturing

Practices.....extremely important. Learn about preservatives. Learn about

emulsions. Learn, learn, learn. Then make your decision. You may decide it

is more than you bargained for, but I believe it is worth it--or else I would

still be working in public health trying to get people to lose weight and eat

better...but I digress

Challenge testing is the only way to know for sure that your formulation can

withstand/inhibit microbial " invasions " (strange word choice?) But, quite

honestly, very few homecrafters have their formulations challenge tested.

What you CAN have done though is a simple test----aerobic plate count. This

test will be relatively inexpensive--$30 and less and can at least tell you

if your batch is " clean " . This should offer some comfort and reassurance.

But I think there is ALOT of " playing " or experimenting and learning to be

done before that step needs to be taken. I am not a fan of making something

up one weekend and sellng it at a craft show the next. I think there is alot

that we, as homecrafters, can do ourselves. For example, we can conduct our

own informal stability testing by using the freeze/thaw method. I try to use

it for all my formulations to make sure they at least appear to be stable.

It's a good method.

So, here are some thoughts and ideas. I hope this isn't too long, Pat, but

hopefully it will help.

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my question. Could you

>tell me how I would go about having testing done? I'm new to this end of

>creating body care products and I have no idea where to begin.

Since you are new, you should probably read the Principles of Preservation which

can be found in the CosmeticInfo files area:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo/files/Preservative_Info/Principles_of\

_Preservation.pdf

The subject of aerobic plate count and challenge testing has been discussed

several times. If you search the message archives for

challenge testing

you'll get many hits. Then if you have questions, come back here.

>I may decide along with others who have advised me that it isn't worth my

>time afterall

It's difficult for someone not versed is the art and science of formulating

simple lotions.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/9/03 12:41:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

cheryl2851@... writes:

> Angie,

> You made some good points. I make my own lotions and

> I love it. I don't sell to anyone just for myself and

> family.

> I made some goats milk lotion and I love it! It is

> creamy and smooth. I sterilized, wore gloves heated

> and the information in these files is priceless. I

> also used two preservatives and so far so good.

>

> Question to all I want to make an eye cream and have

> tinkered around a little bit. What oils do you feel

> are beficial for the soft area around they eye. I

> have used rose hip seed oil and calendula infused. So

> far. Also what is a viable option other than E WAX?

> I really want to find a different and less waxy

> feeling in my lotions? Any suggestions I would

> welcome. Thanks again for all the information in the

> archives and files.

> Cheryl

>

Hi Cheryl,

That's great! Even if you have no desire to sell your products, I think it

is so nice to be able to make things for yourself and your family. It sounds

like you take great care in making your lotions and I bet they are

wonderful!!

Here are a couple of tips that you may already know, but I'll mention them

anyway. First, always use heat to your advantage, especially when working

with botanicals, proteins, or other water soluble ingredients, like milk,

that could possibly have some microbes lurking around. Heat will kill many

bacteria and mold and therefore will make your preservative more effective.

I haven't worked with milk in a lotion, but I know Jen Welch has done so and

perhaps she can offer some special tips. But for all water solubles it is a

good idea to heat to at least 180F. If I am making herbal infusions, I heat

the water and botanical to at least 180F and hold the temp constant for at

least 30 minutes. I strain out the solids and then repeat the heating

procedure.

From what I have read and learned, it seems to me that the most effective

preservative for high water content products...such as a lotion and most

creams...is Germall Plus (liquid or powder). It is also a good idea to use a

chelating agent, such as disodium or tetrasodium ETDA, in your hard to

preserve emulsions---like the goat milk. This chelating agent will help your

preservative to be as effective as possible. This is information that has

been given to me by Steve Orafino at ISP Sutton Labs and I trust his opinion.

Eye creams require special care and I think some caution. The eye can easily

become infected and the products used must be very " clean " . In most creams,

I would recommend the higher end of the recommended usage for your

preservative, simply because the likelihood for more microbes to be

introduced is greater. Of course testing is ideal.

Now for the fun stuff I think any oil that has a high EFA composition is

good to use for the face or eye area. There are a whole bunch of 'actives'

around that claim to get rid of wrinkles, etc. There is some evidence that

some of them actually do work...but I won't go there because that gets into

the drug claims and such. You mention rose hip seed oil...a good choice I

think. Evening Primrose oil is one of my favorites too. I love the

distillates for use on the face. I particularly love rose and witch hazel

distillates/hydrosols. There are really lots of options. The old standby

for reducing puffiness around eyes is a slice of cucumber...if you haven't

read A Modern Herbal by Mrs. Grieve it makes fun and interesting reading.

I do have some suggestions for options other than emulsifying wax NF and also

for some nice additives for an eye cream. But since they are The Herbarie

products I hesitate to elaborate on list. You can write to me personally if

you are interested though.

Good luck with everything and have fun!

Angie

The Herbarie - Botanicals and Body Care

Natural Source & Specialty Bulk Ingredients...Exceptional Quality

at Wholesale Prices...visit us at http://www.theherbarie.com

[Guest guest]

>I made some goats milk lotion and I love it! It is

>creamy and smooth. I sterilized, wore gloves heated

>and the information in these files is priceless. I

>also used two preservatives and so far so good.

Cheryl,

Which preservatives did you use?

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I've thought about making a milk type lotion but I had such a devil of a

time preserving a lotion I made with water infused with herbs that I decided

not to chance it. If I had the right perservative though...I might be

tempeted!!

>

>

> >I made some goats milk lotion and I love it! It is

> >creamy and smooth. I sterilized, wore gloves heated

> >and the information in these files is priceless. I

> >also used two preservatives and so far so good.

>

> Cheryl,

>

> Which preservatives did you use?

>

> Maurice

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Maurice O. Hevey

> Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

> http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

> -------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

>

> Post message: Cosmeticinfo

> Subscribe: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo

> Unsubscribe: Cosmeticinfo-unsubscribe

> List owner: Cosmeticinfo-owner

> URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I used Germaban II and also Uniphen 23. Maybe a

>little much but I was a little worried.

You should be concerned. Germaben II and Uniphen P-23 both contain parabens:

Uniphen P-23 (INCI name: Phenoxyethanol (and) Methylparaben (and) Butylparaben

(and) Ethylparaben (and) Propylparaben)

Germaben II (INCI name: Propylene Glycol (and) olidinyl Urea (and)

Methylparaben (and) Propylparaben)

Depending on how much you used, it's possible that the amount of parabens in

your formula may have exceeded the maximum levels permitted in Japan and the EU.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 05:52 AM 4-10-03 -0500, you wrote:

>Depending on how much you used, it's possible that the amount of parabens

>in your formula may have exceeded the maximum levels permitted in Japan

>and the EU.

Why do Japan and the EU have a lower maximum level than the US for parabens?

Tabach

Potomac Soap Co. LLC

www.potomacsoapco.com

[Guest guest]

>Why do Japan and the EU have a lower maximum level than the US for parabens?

Hmmm..., I wasn't aware that there was a maximum permitted level for parabens in

the USA. Where did you see this?

I believe that the reason that the EU and Japan put limits on the maximum level

for parabens has to do with contact dermatitis.

Also, I cannot see why anyone would want to exceed the solubility of parabens in

water.

Solubility of parabens in water at 20C

Methylparaben = 0.25%

Propylparaben = 0.04%

Butylparaben = 0.02%

Ethylparabenen = 0.11%

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 08:31 AM 4-10-03 -0500, you wrote:

>

>

> >Why do Japan and the EU have a lower maximum level than the US for parabens?

>

>Hmmm..., I wasn't aware that there was a maximum permitted level for

>parabens in the USA. Where did you see this?

I didn't - I just assumed it, making an ass out of you and me, except I

seemed to have made an ass out of only myself. So what you are saying is

that the US has no such maximum, but Japan and the EU do. OK, now that

we've cleared that up I'll rephrase the question. Why doesn't the US have

a maximum permitted level?

>I believe that the reason that the EU and Japan put limits on the maximum

>level for parabens has to do with contact dermatitis.

OK, that makes sense. Can I assume here that Americans get contact

dermatitis from too many parabens as well?

>Also, I cannot see why anyone would want to exceed the solubility of

>parabens in water.

>

>Solubility of parabens in water at 20C

>

>Methylparaben = 0.25%

>Propylparaben = 0.04%

>Butylparaben = 0.02%

>Ethylparabenen = 0.11%

Well, I can't see why anyone would want to either, but that wasn't my

question although it does raise some more. But I'll keep my stupid

questions to myself from now on!

Tabach

Potomac Soap Co. LLC

www.potomacsoapco.com

[Guest guest]

>So what you are saying is that the US has no such maximum, but Japan and the EU

do.

AFAIK, that is an accurate statement.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo/files/Preservative_Info/EU_Annex_VI_P\

reservatives_Permitted.pdf

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo/files/Preservative_Info/Japanese_Appr\

oved_Preservatives.pdf

>Why doesn't the US have a maximum permitted level?

In comparison to other countries, the cosmetic industry in the US is

self-regulating.

>>I believe that the reason that the EU and Japan put limits on the maximum

>>level for parabens has to do with contact dermatitis.

>

>OK, that makes sense. Can I assume here that Americans get contact

>dermatitis from too many parabens as well?

Seems logical to me. That's why I expressed my concern to Cheryl.

> I'll keep my stupid questions to myself from now on!

That's really not a good idea. How else will you learn if you don't ask

questions?

Isn't it better to ask questions rather than exposing yourself, family, friends

and customers to potential harm.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Is the Freeze/thaw method outlined somewhere in the

> files? I am having trouble finding it--bettijo

I doubt it. I think what Angie was saying is that there are many things we

can do for ourselves without having to run to a lab every time we turn

around.

When you ship a product there is the possibility that it will freeze or be

exposed to some rather high temperatures. Under those conditions strange

things can happen to your products, like breaking down. Your beautiful

lotion could end up separating in to water and oil. You can test this at

home in your freezer. Put your product in your freezer for 24 hours and then

observe if there have been any changes to it. You can purchase ovens that

will age a product for you. If you put a lotion in one of those for a few

months it would be equivalent to a year on the shelf. So you will know

without having to wait the year if your product will hold up over time. The

ovens are probably out of our price range and would be something you would

see in a lab. If Maurice was kind enough to let us know what temperatures he

uses it would be possible to make one using either light bulbs or heat

lamps. It wouldn't be as reliable, but it would give a person a good idea of

how their products are holding up.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity

House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc.

pat@...

http://www.houseofscents.com/

----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

>Put your product in your freezer for 24 hours and then

>observe if there have been any changes to it.

You should try 2 or 3 freeze thaw cycles.

>You can purchase ovens that

>will age a product for you. If you put a lotion in one of those for a few

>months it would be equivalent to a year on the shelf. So you will know

>without having to wait the year if your product will hold up over time. The

>ovens are probably out of our price range and would be something you would

>see in a lab. If Maurice was kind enough to let us know what temperatures he

>uses it would be possible to make one using either light bulbs or heat

>lamps. It wouldn't be as reliable, but it would give a person a good idea of

>how their products are holding up.

I conduct my accelerated stability testing at 42C. As a rule of thumb,

three months at 42C is equivalent to 1 year at room temperature.

I say that its a rule of thumb because there are some formulas that

will be unstable at 42C and will be stable for years. And there are

some formulas that are stable at 42C and will breakdown after one month

at room temperature.

Maurice

--------------------------------------------------------

Maurice O. Hevey

Convergent Cosmetics, Inc.

http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com

-------------------------------------------------------