Re: Chapter 4 breathing exercise

May 11, 2007

Hello SJ,

I don't know if my thoughts would be helpful to you, but here they

are in case they are.

It is my understanding that it is not the " controlling of the breath "

itself that is an important indicator of potential success with the

method, it's the experience of *something* in which you learn that

willingness increases tolerance to discomfort. Also it's interesting

that you used the phrase " controlling your breath " because that would

be the opposite of what the exercise suggests: become *willing* to

hold your breath, not that you " control " it. Telling myself " I must

control my breath " would freak me out, too! Since breathing exercises

are already something you know that triggers this in you perhaps you

could try something like ...holding ice cubes? (If there's something

specific to breathing over other discomfort tolerance I expect

someone on the list will correct me.)

I'm amused by your analogy of planes through mountains for the way

you feel about attempting the pain diary. I found the pain diary

pretty similar to the earlier exercises about recording painful

experiences and my reaction to them. What do you find different about

it?

Best,

>

> Hello, All:

>

> I failed miserably at the chapter 4 breathing exercise in the " Get

Out

> of Your Mind & Into Your Life " workbook. As a matter of fact,

holding

> my breath incited a panic attack. Panic attacks seem to be a fun

new

> symptom of my depression. When I mentioned my experience to my

> acupuncturist, who is also a tai chi instructor, his response was,

> " duh " . Apparently, even though they are often given to beginners,

> breathing exercises are a pretty powerful thing in the alternative

> medicine pantheon (which sort of explains why I've had panic issues

at

> times with yoga and swimming).

>

> So, here is the predicament. The point of ACT seems to be that you

> don't have to " solve " any particular issue in order to live a fuller

> life. Yet, chapter 4 strongly indicates that the ability to control

> one's breath is a good indicator of future success with this

approach.

> Not to be literal, per se, with the breath exercise but, should I

> stop and figure out the panic thing before I continue with the

> workbook? Or wait until I'm stabilized on medication? Anybody else

> using this technique find that it physically incited panic?

>

> I guess I'm feeling like the workbook just asked me to run a 5K when

> it hadn't so much as occurred to me to crawl across the room yet. I

> see in the next chapter that I'm supposed to keep a pain diary.

Wow.

> In my quantum physics class we calculated the literal probability

> that an airplane could fly through an mountain. Me keeping a pain

> diary seems like a roughly similar task. I'm not designed to fly

> through that mountain and I've studiously avoided coming anywhere

> close to doing so, even though I know that the probability exists

that

> I can. Can I try flying through something softer, like, say,

> marshmallows, first? The first three chapters went so well. Is

there

> a way to slow this down?

>

> Thanks!

>

> sj

>

May 14, 2007

Hi, :

Thanks for the perspective. " Control " versus " willingness " is an

interesting distinction and one that brings up a whole other series of

thoughts. I've always been unsuccessful with techniques that required

I not do something rather than present an alternative. Dieting is an

excellent example. I'm really bad a not having chocolate -- I feel

deprived, guilty, shameful for wanting it. I do pretty well with

empowering myself to choose good, dark, organic chocolate instead.

I'm not as thin as I would be if I could manage not to have it at all

but I am actually healthier and the quality of experience that I give

to myself is improved over having an entire Cadbury's milk tray or

feeling completely deprived and punished for my desire (and those seem

to be the three choices available to me).

But, I don't know how applicable that example is to ACT since the

chocolate example is choosing ways to give myself pleasure and ACT

appears to be about choosing ways to give myself pain, willingly,

without reason. It's one thing to endure icing down my foot because

it is injured. Why would I willingly hold ice or my breath? Some

types of pain are completely avoidable -- like staying in an abusive

relationship or forcing yourself to hold your breath. Some aren't

avoidable or controllable. It seems like the second type of pain is

the one that needs a strategy other than avoidance. Avoidance works

pretty darn well for the hot stove/bad men scenarios. Or is the whole

point that there is no distinction? It might take me awhile to wrap

my brain around that one...

The other exercises I was able to maintain a detachment and

objectively examine my behavior. The pain diary is neither detached

nor objective.

sj

May 14, 2007

Hi. My two cents... As far as 'willingly choosing pain:' I agree

with what Steve said: 'hold ACT concepts lightly.' Additionally,

I assume that it isn't about 'willingly choosing pain, but rather,

willingly choosing values-consistent-actions that inevitably bring

pain with them. I recall the clear guidance of Steve on this topic:

'we don't have to accept painful feelings in every situation, just

those that come with living a valued life.' So. The question then

becomes: Is this PAIN something that I " need " to accept " because " it's

a part of MY valued path?

>

> Hi, :

>

> Thanks for the perspective. " Control " versus " willingness " is an

> interesting distinction and one that brings up a whole other series of

> thoughts. I've always been unsuccessful with techniques that required

> I not do something rather than present an alternative. Dieting is an

> excellent example. I'm really bad a not having chocolate -- I feel

> deprived, guilty, shameful for wanting it. I do pretty well with

> empowering myself to choose good, dark, organic chocolate instead.

> I'm not as thin as I would be if I could manage not to have it at all

> but I am actually healthier and the quality of experience that I give

> to myself is improved over having an entire Cadbury's milk tray or

> feeling completely deprived and punished for my desire (and those seem

> to be the three choices available to me).

>

> But, I don't know how applicable that example is to ACT since the

> chocolate example is choosing ways to give myself pleasure and ACT

> appears to be about choosing ways to give myself pain, willingly,

> without reason. It's one thing to endure icing down my foot because

> it is injured. Why would I willingly hold ice or my breath? Some

> types of pain are completely avoidable -- like staying in an abusive

> relationship or forcing yourself to hold your breath. Some aren't

> avoidable or controllable. It seems like the second type of pain is

> the one that needs a strategy other than avoidance. Avoidance works

> pretty darn well for the hot stove/bad men scenarios. Or is the whole

> point that there is no distinction? It might take me awhile to wrap

> my brain around that one...

>

> The other exercises I was able to maintain a detachment and

> objectively examine my behavior. The pain diary is neither detached

> nor objective.

>

> sj

>

May 14, 2007

So, maybe I should do values before willingness? That seems more

intuitive to me. Anyone else skip around in the workbook? Is that

advisable? If so, does anyone have a chapter recommendation?

Thanks!

sj

May 14, 2007

I agree that dieting is an excellent example -- I've been thinking

about that a lot. There's a lot of things one must be willing to

endure in order to lose weight. I was even thinking about posting on

the topic.

Sticking to chocolate though, for myself, I accept that I want

chocolate, especially when it's right there and I'm stressed out and

have bigger problems than my weight. By accepting that I have that

craving, I prevent the guilt and shame for having that craving. But

if I want to continue to move towards a value of physical fitness,

that means being *willing* to tolerate wanting chocolate and not

getting it, and moving through the feeling of deprivation. Which

probably feels a lot less like deprivation and more like a small

disappointment as you are willing to keep moving through it. I have

varied results with this myself. I go back and forth

between, " Losing weight is not a really serious problem and I

shouldn't spend so much time and energy on it " and " If it's not a big

problem then perhaps this is where I should start! " Also sometimes

what seems simple " I'm just moving through a small deprivation of

chocolate " kicks off a bunch of feelings about bigger deprivations

that are out of my control.

In reply to avoiding bad men/unnecessary pain: Getting out of an

abusive relationship requires willingless to persevere through

incredible obstacles and pain. Most people stay in

bad/unhappy/outright abusive relationships because they are avoiding

the pain that would come from leaving it. They are avoiding thoughts

like, " He really is bad for me and this will not get better. " They

are avoiding actions that would increase their abusive partner's

actions -- like initiating the end of the relationship. And that's

not imagined -- abusive partners are much more abusive when their

partner is leaving them.

(A family member just left an abusive relationship and is in therapy

and has been sharing a lot of her experience with me. A close friend

of mine left a violent relationship and now does outreach and

education in domestic violence. I've been in unhappy relationships

but nothing violent.)

So I'd say being willing to hold your breath, to learn to increase

tolerance to discomfort, is like being willing to endure the

obstacles to leaving a bad relationship or endure the disappointment

of not eating chocolate.

I think perhaps the breathing exercise was chosen because there's an

obvious end to it. You know you can't and won't hold your breath

forever, and it won't harm you. Even if you pass out, you'll just

start breathing again.

Best,

>

> Hi, :

>

> Thanks for the perspective. " Control " versus " willingness " is an

> interesting distinction and one that brings up a whole other series

of

> thoughts. I've always been unsuccessful with techniques that

required

> I not do something rather than present an alternative. Dieting is

an

> excellent example. I'm really bad a not having chocolate -- I feel

> deprived, guilty, shameful for wanting it. I do pretty well with

> empowering myself to choose good, dark, organic chocolate instead.

> I'm not as thin as I would be if I could manage not to have it at

all

> but I am actually healthier and the quality of experience that I

give

> to myself is improved over having an entire Cadbury's milk tray or

> feeling completely deprived and punished for my desire (and those

seem