Re: Control and Avoidance

May 7, 2007

Thanks for putting this question out there, , as it is something I struggle with, too. Unless I am avoiding it.;-P Goldie“Those of you without a sense of humor are at the mercy of the rest of us.”

Control and Avoidance

Hello, I'm new to the group. I'm reading both "Get out of Your Mind

and Into Your Life" and "Acceptance and Committment Therapy."

I'm a little confused about the concepts of control and avoidance as

described in "Get out of your Mind" in the chapter "The Pull of

Avoidance". It seems like they are being used as synomyms, or as part

of the same type or problem.

I'd use the word "control" or "struggle" to describe an internal

state where I'm focussing very very strongly on what I don't want to

be true about myself, but what simply is, and the more I wish it

would go away, the more it makes me feel miserable. I've been there,

done that, understand the concept completely. I analyze it to death,

make lists about it, compare myself to others who don't have the

problem, and so on. That to me is an issue of control, and it creates

what Albert Ellis might have called "secondary disturbances" . You

have the problem, and then you have the problem of the way you feel

about it.

Avoidance, however, is a whole different animal in my experience, and

I'm probably wrong about this, but to me it feels like acceptance (or

closer to acceptance than struggling or controlling) . This is where I

just realize I'm never going to win at fixing that problem or thing I

don't like about myself, distract myself from in, throw myself into

projects that have nothing to do with it, surround myself with others

who have the problem, and so on. However, this also seems to create

it's own issues. Sometimes it works just fine -- it no longer feels

like a problem or issue. Other times I carry the avoided problem

around like emotional baggage, or like a nagging uncompleted task.

But I'm guessing in ACT contexts, avoidance is just another form of

control?

Thanks for reading,

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Yahoo! Autos.

May 8, 2007

could certainly clear up your confusion better than I

can, but I'll give it a go anyway...

To me, control is an INTERNAL behaviour where I'm trying to control

and get rid of my anxieties and negative thoughts, while avoidance is

an EXTERNAL behaviour where I physically avoid doing something I want

to do because it gives me temporary relief from my anxiety and the

futile attempts to control and suppress my anxious thinking.

For example, I'm in the office at work when someone invites me out

for drinks after work with a group of colleagues. What happens first

is that my anxiety level soars. Although I'd really like to join

them, I start imagining all sorts of horrible catastrophes if do so.

What if they see how anxious I am? What if I blush? what if I can't

keep a conversation going? why can't I stop these stupid thoughts?

Why am I so anxious? I'm going to feel terrible if I join them, so

why bother?

Through all this I'm trying like mad to CONTROL my thoughts, to stop

them spiralling out of CONTROL, and I'm getting anxious and angry

about being anxious.

So, I take the easy way out and AVOID joining them. That way I don't

have to go through the nightmare of socialising yet again. Sure, I

feel a little relieved for a while, but yet again I've missed out on

a chance to get to know some people a little better and practice my

social skills and maybe make some friends. And I still feel bad after

I decline their invitation, because I'm still alone, still isolated,

still lonely. And still anxious.

Fortunately ACT is available, and it can help in a big way. Not by

teaching me how to control my thoughts, but by teaching me how to let

them be, to give them 'wiggle room', so that I can live a life I

value, even though the anxious thoughts and feelings are still

circulating around in my brainspace.

BTW, a book I've found very helpful is " The Happiness Trap " by Russ

, an ACT therapist who practices here in Melbourne, Australia.

You can find out more on his website at

http://www.actmindfully.com.au along with some useful articles.

All the best,

Stan

>

> Hello, I'm new to the group. I'm reading both " Get out of Your Mind

> and Into Your Life " and " Acceptance and Committment Therapy. "

>

> I'm a little confused about the concepts of control and avoidance

as

> described in " Get out of your Mind " in the chapter " The Pull of

> Avoidance " . It seems like they are being used as synomyms, or as

part

> of the same type or problem.

>

> I'd use the word " control " or " struggle " to describe an internal

> state where I'm focussing very very strongly on what I don't want

to

> be true about myself, but what simply is, and the more I wish it

> would go away, the more it makes me feel miserable. I've been

there,

> done that, understand the concept completely. I analyze it to

death,

> make lists about it, compare myself to others who don't have the

> problem, and so on. That to me is an issue of control, and it

creates

> what Albert Ellis might have called " secondary disturbances " . You

> have the problem, and then you have the problem of the way you feel

> about it.

>

> Avoidance, however, is a whole different animal in my experience,

and

> I'm probably wrong about this, but to me it feels like acceptance

(or

> closer to acceptance than struggling or controlling). This is where

I

> just realize I'm never going to win at fixing that problem or thing

I

> don't like about myself, distract myself from in, throw myself into

> projects that have nothing to do with it, surround myself with

others

> who have the problem, and so on. However, this also seems to create

> it's own issues. Sometimes it works just fine -- it no longer feels

> like a problem or issue. Other times I carry the avoided problem

> around like emotional baggage, or like a nagging uncompleted task.

>

> But I'm guessing in ACT contexts, avoidance is just another form of

> control?

>

> Thanks for reading,

>

May 8, 2007

> I'm a little confused about the concepts of

> control and avoidance ... It seems like they

> are being used as synomyms, or as part

> of the same type or problem.

i think you're right. its just a simple wording thing, no big deal.

we want to CONTROL our experience (our thoughts & feelings) because

that's our how minds deal with everything - fix it, change it, get

rid of it, whatever - CONTROL it.

so if we run into a thought or feeling we dont like, we try to

control it rather than let it be. that's the same as AVOIDANCE.

avoidance can be internal or external - we can try not to think a

thought or feel a feeling (internal) or we can avoid a situation

altogether cause of the thoughts & feelings it gives rise to

(external)

when you say " avoidance is a whole different animal " ... you seem

to be focusing on this itnernal/exgternal distinction. your analysis

feels like struggle, like a a desire to control ... but your " giving

in " & deciding to distract yourself with some external behavior feels

to you like " acceptance " and then " avoidance. "

think of it this way: what's the similarity between the two

states - the strggule/analysis & the avoidance/distrcaction? both

involve thoughts & feelings you dont' want to experience - yes?

remember that worryign (and im an expert on worrying) is

often a way of distracting us from pain - it doesnt seem that way

when it's going on, because it feels so miserable; but often that

is true. so in that sense worrying/struggling is avoidance just

as much as deliberatley distracting yourself

as for avoidance seeming to mean the same hting as " acceptance " - i

think it says somewhere in the workbook taht " acctpeance " is really

not the best word for it - " willingness " or " welcoming " are better

words.

take another look at chapter 9 in the workbook - esxpecially at page

130,. " what willingness is and is not. " this is something i come

back to all the time when i lose my bearings. and look again also at

the stolry at the bottom of page 125 about your crazy Aunt Ida.

the last thing i would like to say is that you remind me of myself

so much - because right now you're trapped in the " believe/don't

believe " world!!! i've spent SO much time there in my life ... the

two states you describe, " struggle " where your analyzing yourself

over & over, and " avoidance/acceptance " where you decide " okay,

i'm screwed, i'll stop trying to fix it " are the same in one imporant

way: in both cases you think your only choice is to BELIEVE or

DISBELIEVE in what your mind is telling you.

there is another choice ... it's not believe/disbelieve & it's

not right/wrong or good/bad ... its not past/future either!

i'd say more but i don't know where youre at with the exercises in

the workbook ... DO THE EXERCISES ...

May 8, 2007

Stan,

Thanks for the reply and the examples. That does make it clearer.

I guess I was conceiving of avoidance as also an internal act. For

example, if I were to go out with people despite feeling very anxious,

I'd say I was " avoiding " my anxiety by not thinking about it. I'd also

say I was " suppressing " my anxiety by not acting on it. But now I

understand the ACT definitions of these terms better.

I read more of the books and it's interesting because, personally, I do

not have trouble with wanting to escape emotional states. First of all,

my emotions are much too strong and run much too " hot " for any possible

hope of doing so! I learned at a very young age that my emotions and

other people's emotions could not be controlled. My whole family and

both sides of my extended family were hotheads. I learned later that my

*behavior* and *expression* could be contolled, but I never once fooled

myself thinking I could control my emotions themselves.

So I do a lot of Avoiding, as you defined it -- I avoid EXTERNAL events

to prevent my emotions from flaring up. Sometimes I avoid expressing my

very intense emotions so I can avoid conflict. I find not expressing

myself painful in and of itself. So I try to avoid situations where I'd

want and need to express myself. It's not that I can't tolerate my

emotions, but that they seriously can ruin the rest of my day once

triggered. Then my only hope is to practically disassociate from my

emotions to remain functional.

So it's very hard for me not to think that the ultimate solution to my

problem would be to learn some control over my emotions, which makes it

rather odd to read that no, control makes it worse *for everyone* (not

just for me, which I already knew).

>

> could certainly clear up your confusion better than I

> can, but I'll give it a go anyway...

>

> To me, control is an INTERNAL behaviour where I'm trying to control

> and get rid of my anxieties and negative thoughts, while avoidance is

> an EXTERNAL behaviour where I physically avoid doing something I want

> to do because it gives me temporary relief from my anxiety and the

> futile attempts to control and suppress my anxious thinking.

May 8, 2007

Thanks for your feedback. I am beginning to understand

that " willingness " is a more accurate term for " acceptance. "

Personally, I think of " acceptance " as complacency, which doesn't realy

seem to be what's being advised!

--- In ACT_for_the_Public , " mindfulmailer "

> take another look at chapter 9 in the workbook - esxpecially at page

> 130,. " what willingness is and is not. " this is something i come

> back to all the time when i lose my bearings. and look again also at

> the stolry at the bottom of page 125 about your crazy Aunt Ida.

May 8, 2007

It's probably most important to simply find

what words work best for you.

I wouldn't worry too much about what you seem to think is advised.

'Willingness' to me actually connotes more of an active stance, implies

I 'will' do something:

(O.K., I'm willing...I will do it)

Acceptance on the other hand, just seems to acknowledge and fully

notice:

(O.K., this is what is so and what is not so)

Joanne

soniaspider wrote:

Thanks for your feedback. I am beginning to understand

that "willingness" is a more accurate term for "acceptance. "

Personally, I think of "acceptance" as complacency, which doesn't realy

seem to be what's being advised!

--- In ACT_for_the_

Public@yahoogrou ps.com, "mindfulmailer"

> take another look at chapter 9 in the workbook - esxpecially at

page

> 130,. "what willingness is and is not." this is something i come

> back to all the time when i lose my bearings. and look again also

at

> the stolry at the bottom of page 125 about your crazy Aunt Ida.

May 8, 2007

I just want to make sure I understand *what* is being advised. Doesn't mean I'll

follow it.

>

> *It's probably most important to simply find what words work best for you.

> I wouldn't worry too much about what you seem to think is advised.

May 8, 2007

I know what you mean--it's a good place to

start! :-)

Oh, btw, I just saw your original question in this thread:

"Avoidance, however, is a whole different animal

in my experience, and

I'm probably wrong about this, but to me it feels like acceptance (or

closer to acceptance than struggling or controlling). This is where I