Re: OT: 5HTP

[Guest guest]

I am going to get on my soap box.

I personally think SSRI's are crap. They only work for about twenty

percent of the people who take them and are generally no better then a

placebo. I have done a lot of research on these mind altering

substances and have found very little good they do anyone.

I was put on Prozac in 1998, because I bought into the crap theory

that I had a chemical imbalance. There is no proof anywhere that

depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Well as soon as I took

that garbage I did have a chemical imbalance. Within one day of

starting it I started having panic attacks. So, the brilliant Doctor

left me on Prozac and added Valium to the mix to control the side

effects of the Prozac. That seemed to be fine for a few years until

the drugs turned on me. My only choice was to up my dose or try to

live without drugs. I choose the latter. It took me 1 year to taper

off that crap, and if you think high anxiety and depression is bad on

its own, try it after the pills have changed the way your brain works.

It is bad news.

Off my soap box now.

I had very bad depression after I came off the drugs and I mean close

to suicidal. Once I started working with ACT I realized that

depression is pretty normal and passes with time. After about a month

or so of working with ACT the depression doesn't control me anymore. I

know I am still a bit depressed now and then, who isn't, but it just

doesn't bother me anymore. And I have found the worst thing about

depression is when you let it bother you.

This is just my opinion, I am not a Doctor, just a fellow traveller

who has had, and knows a lot of people, who have had very bad luck

with drugs.

Greg

>

> sorry this is kind of off-topic but I've come to respect the opinions

> of people in this group. My therapist suggested I see my doc about

> starting an anti-depressant (most likely an SSRI as that's what most

> doctors prescribe here in the UK). However, I've done a lot of

reading

> and it seems 5HTP - a natural dietary supplment - can have a similar

> effect on symptoms of depression.

>

> Does anyone here have any experience of either SSRI's or 5HTP to

> share? The only downside to 5HTP is the cost, I worked out that a

> 200mg/day dose will cost me about 1.50 GPB ($2 ish), whereas the SSRI

> I'd get for free on the national health service

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, . I'm new to the group, but I can tell you

what I know:

5HTP - I've read that your brain really can't absorb

it in this form, so that it does virtually nothing. I

believe I first read about this at a website for a

program that promotes using vitamins, minerals, and

amino acids instead. Their website is

healthrecovery.com. Check it out.

SSRI's - I took them on and off for about 6 years. At

different times I tried Prozac, Paxil, and Celexa,

with the best results coming from Paxil. This is a

toughy for me, because I would advise most people not

to take them.

I had both anxiety and depression, but anxiety was the

one I hated most. Paxil works great for anxiety. It

stops it in its tracks. But not without a price. All

the side effects you read about are true. But what

finally got me off it was realizing that someday I

would need to face my fears and my depression on my

own. Paxil just delays that. And I felt that it

changed my personality in some subtle way -- I wasn't

100% me. Then I heard about recent medical studies

that said that the SSRIs actually deplete your brain

of serotonin, possibly permanently! That was when I

decided to stop and just face my anxiety/depression on

my own chemistry.

I don't know what your situation is or what your

short-term and long-term goals are. Paxil certainly

helped me for the time I took it, but I knew I didn't

want to stay on it forever. I hope this information

of mine helps you.

Best of luck!

--- alexknowles090 wrote:

> sorry this is kind of off-topic but I've come to

> respect the opinions

> of people in this group. My therapist suggested I

> see my doc about

> starting an anti-depressant (most likely an SSRI as

> that's what most

> doctors prescribe here in the UK). However, I've

> done a lot of reading

> and it seems 5HTP - a natural dietary supplment -

> can have a similar

> effect on symptoms of depression.

>

> Does anyone here have any experience of either

> SSRI's or 5HTP to

> share? The only downside to 5HTP is the cost, I

> worked out that a

> 200mg/day dose will cost me about 1.50 GPB ($2 ish),

> whereas the SSRI

> I'd get for free on the national health service

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I expect you may get as many different answers - pro, con, or mixed -

as there are people on this list who have taken antidepressants (or

supplements like 5-HTP) and who care to respond. Anecdotal experience

will always vary tremendously and may not be much help. My own

experience with antidepressants was pretty negative overall - you can

label my life-long depression both " atypical " and " treatment resistant. "

As for supplements like SAM-e, 5-HTP, fish oil, etc., I've tried them

all and haven't found much benefit - but again, some people say they

have. One nice thing about most of these is that they're much safer

than prescription antidepressants - they aren't going to bust up your

liver - and they have far fewer side effects, sexual and otherwise.

My latest venture - which I started last week - is to try chromium

picolinate, which has been found in a number of small double-blind

studies to reduce carbohydrate cravings, improve libido, and reduce

mood swings in some overweight people with atypical depression. The

working theory is that there is some relationship between insulin

resistance (common with fat unhappy folks) and some aspects of

depression. So far the chromium hasn't been miraculous but I plan to

keep taking it - it's unlikely to be harmful and anything that might

cut down on my ice cream habit is good.

I do worry, however, that dabbling in such supplements may hurt my

progress with ACT. Trying to improve baseline mood through exercise

and other healthy methods is hard to argue with - but when we start

taking a pill to fix our moods, we're back inside the unworkable " fix

the mood and everything will get better " paradigm that ACT is intended

to free us from.

During the first few days of taking chromium, I bought heavily

back into this old paradigm despite trying to stay mindful of the

risk. Only in the past few days have I been able to start defusing

from this. Maybe you'll handle it better than I did, but I found it a

pretty slippery slope.

>

> sorry this is kind of off-topic but I've come to respect the opinions

> of people in this group. My therapist suggested I see my doc about

> starting an anti-depressant (most likely an SSRI as that's what most

> doctors prescribe here in the UK). However, I've done a lot of reading

> and it seems 5HTP - a natural dietary supplment - can have a similar

> effect on symptoms of depression.

>

> Does anyone here have any experience of either SSRI's or 5HTP to

> share? The only downside to 5HTP is the cost, I worked out that a

> 200mg/day dose will cost me about 1.50 GPB ($2 ish), whereas the SSRI

> I'd get for free on the national health service

>

[Guest guest]

Taking anti-depressants or any other supplements because you don't

like feeling the way you do, isn't really acceptance. Is it?

Are you trying to fool your mind?

[Guest guest]

> Taking anti-depressants or any other supplements because you don't

> like feeling the way you do, isn't really acceptance. Is it?

>

> Are you trying to fool your mind?

I began taking Zoloft last August because I felt in such a funk that

it was well-nigh impossible for me to even begin a course of

psychotherapy like ACT or, as I was most familiar with at the time,

CT.

The Zoloft had the vital function of raising the baseline of how deep

the depression would go. Was this due to an influx of serotonin? Or

due to the fact that the mere act of seeking help infused me with

enough energy to begin attacking (or in the case of ACT, letting go

of) the problem?

Don't know. Don't much care. It was a great help to me one way or

the other, a catalyst to healing. Since then, I found ACT, then

through ACT found mindfulness training, quit the drug in December, and

haven't looked back.

(That's not true. I did start to slip back once, after I stopped

reading and forgot all the good stuff I'd learned. Once I picked up

the books again and remembered what it was like to stay in the moment

and accept life in all of its many forms, even the irritating ones,

things got a lot better, again, and very quickly.)

[Guest guest]

As I tried to point out there is a range of possible attitudes and

circumstances here - not an absolute right or wrong.

I don't think any therapist, ACT or otherwise, would argue against

exercise, getting proper rest, eating a healthy diet (including fish

with omega 3 fatty acids) and other lifestyle practices, in part for

the benefits they impart to baseline mood. Improvements in energy and

sheer animal spirit aren't to be scorned.

What really is the difference between these sorts of activities and

antidepressants in the form of pills? It's not such a stupid question

as it may sound and the answer isn't necessarily rhetorical. If taking

an antidepressant helps someone to move forward and engage with their

life, it's pointless to condemn either the drug or the person. Fish

oil or 5-HTP, ditto.

I do think the paradigms clash and it can get tricky - but the

decision is always a personal one and should be as free of rhetoric as

possible, whether ACT-styled rhetoric or that of the mainstream culture.

>

> Taking anti-depressants or any other supplements because you don't

> like feeling the way you do, isn't really acceptance. Is it?

>

> Are you trying to fool your mind?

>

[Guest guest]

>

> As I tried to point out there is a range of possible attitudes and

> circumstances here - not an absolute right or wrong.

>

> I don't think any therapist, ACT or otherwise, would argue against

> exercise, getting proper rest, eating a healthy diet (including

fish

> with omega 3 fatty acids) and other lifestyle practices, in part

for

> the benefits they impart to baseline mood. Improvements in energy

and

> sheer animal spirit aren't to be scorned.

>

> What really is the difference between these sorts of activities and

> antidepressants in the form of pills? It's not such a stupid

question

> as it may sound and the answer isn't necessarily rhetorical. If

taking

> an antidepressant helps someone to move forward and engage with

their

> life, it's pointless to condemn either the drug or the person. Fish

> oil or 5-HTP, ditto.

>

> I do think the paradigms clash and it can get tricky - but the

> decision is always a personal one and should be as free of

rhetoric as

> possible, whether ACT-styled rhetoric or that of the mainstream

culture.

I think the above is wonderful advice.

Here's a bit of my own experience...

I've had some very unpleasant reactions to three different SSRI's,

as well as some other psych meds. The only drug I've had any happy

experience with has been Klonopin. Unfortunately it's supposed to be

problematic if used long-term, so I reserve it for emergency use.

(Hopefully as I learn to apply the ACT principles, mental health

emergencies will become a rarity.)

I found 5-HTP to be somewhat helpful at one time, but not quite

enough to stick with it. The best help so far has come from some of

the Ayurvedic herbs -- e.g., Ashwagandha and Holy Basil. I also eat

as healthfully as I can and practice Hatha Yoga and Zen meditation.

I hope this is of some help. Best to you as you find your way.

Jeanne

[Guest guest]

I mearly asked a couple of questions, better to think before hand

then regret after.

> As I tried to point out there is a range of possible attitudes and

> circumstances here - not an absolute right or wrong.

As all right and wrong is subjective I wholeheartedly agree.

> I don't think any therapist, ACT or otherwise, would argue against

> exercise, getting proper rest, eating a healthy diet (including

fish

> with omega 3 fatty acids) and other lifestyle practices, in part

for

> the benefits they impart to baseline mood. Improvements in energy

and

> sheer animal spirit aren't to be scorned.

I quit agree, as a matter of fact the Air Force did a study that

showed exercise was more effective then anti-depressants. The

exercise program only took 8 weeks, whereas anti-depressants take up

to 12 weeks to be effective. Then why anti-depressants at all?

> What really is the difference between these sorts of activities and

> antidepressants in the form of pills? It's not such a stupid

question

> as it may sound and the answer isn't necessarily rhetorical. If

taking

> an antidepressant helps someone to move forward and engage with

their

> life, it's pointless to condemn either the drug or the person. Fish

> oil or 5-HTP, ditto.

I don't remember condemning anyone. The difference is introducing a

foriegn substance to our systems. The anti-depressants are powerful

mind altering drugs with terrible side effects. They should be used

as a last resort. If you snorted cocaine and then were able to move

forward and engage in a life, would it be a life worth living?

Just because some suit on wall street sells one drug and the other

is sold on the street corner, does not change the fact that they are

both drugs. Now if an informed and responsible physician were to

prescribe a drug, and carefully monitored the patient, and used the

drug as a means to get the person to where they no longer needed the

drug then I have no problems with that. What I do take issue with is

the current delivery system. 99% of the time these drugs are

prescribed by Doctors who are far to busy to take the time to do

proper care of their patients (average of 3 minutes per patient).

They are under the popular opinion that those of us with

depression/anxiety/etc.. have a chemical imbalance and that these

wonder drugs will cure all. So here Mr. take this pill and

everything will be fine. What not helping, well take more or try

this drug. Don't worry Mr. we have so many drugs available

that some combination will make you go away. We need to be much

better informed when we decide to take any drug, we can no longer

afford to take the word of Physicians who's only real education

about the drugs he/she is doling out comes from a cute blond

employed by the drug companies to take doctors out to lunch and give

them free samples.

> I do think the paradigms clash and it can get tricky - but the

> decision is always a personal one and should be as free of

rhetoric as

> possible, whether ACT-styled rhetoric or that of the mainstream

culture.

There is no rhetoric, I am only speaking the truth, which can be

supported. I asked the two questions for one purpose. So that we can

be mindful of what we are doing to ourselves. Ultimataly the choice

is still yours, and I would support whatever direction you decide to

go. But please be informed before you begin any type of treatment.

Don't you owe yourself that much.

Greg

[Guest guest]

There are no magic pills, but if you are looking for something to

help even you out give the fish oil a try.

Omega-3 fatty acids are crucial to proper brain function and are

deficient in the modern diet. Browse the net for the studies on omega

-3 and mood and cognitive enhancement, there have been several. Its

a natural substance and I noticed an almost immediate beneficial

effect. Look for high EPA content on the label, this appears to be

the psychoactive ingredient. And even if it doesnt have much effect

on your emotional state, its *still* good for your heart and joints!

Great stuff, IMHO.

>

> sorry this is kind of off-topic but I've come to respect the

opinions

> of people in this group. My therapist suggested I see my doc about

> starting an anti-depressant (most likely an SSRI as that's what most

> doctors prescribe here in the UK). However, I've done a lot of

reading

> and it seems 5HTP - a natural dietary supplment - can have a similar

> effect on symptoms of depression.

>

> Does anyone here have any experience of either SSRI's or 5HTP to

> share? The only downside to 5HTP is the cost, I worked out that a

> 200mg/day dose will cost me about 1.50 GPB ($2 ish), whereas the

SSRI

> I'd get for free on the national health service

>

[Guest guest]

, You really should be careful when taking advice from a group on medical matters. The anti-depresant that works for me may not work for you. Or conversely, the one that I hated could be great for you. Hopefully you have a therapist you trust and that this therapist would perscribe a drug that is suited for you, and not the one that everyone is taking or the great new thing. You also should be careful when taking natural cures. Some of them can have side effects that you should consider. I took St. 's wort for awhile until I found out it may cause high blood pressure. So you do need to be careful with the natural stuff, too. One thing that is great about posting on a blog is that you can't sue us for malpractice. Oh, and one more thing; is there a pill that improves spelling ? Steve

Geldmacher St. Louis, Mo. spgeldmacher@...alexknowles090 wrote: sorry this is kind of off-topic but I've come to respect the opinionsof people in this group. My therapist suggested I see my doc aboutstarting an anti-depressant (most likely an SSRI as that's what mostdoctors prescribe here in the UK). However, I've done a lot of readingand it seems 5HTP - a natural dietary supplment - can have a similareffect on symptoms of depression.Does anyone here have any experience of either SSRI's or 5HTP toshare? The only downside to 5HTP is the cost, I worked out that a200mg/day dose will cost me about 1.50 GPB ($2 ish), whereas the SSRII'd get for free on the national health service