Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 > So, I am muddled...I have no idea what the value is, caring or > Connection? and then to top it off I now feel guilty for wanting > to " connect " deeply with people! arghhhh!! Hi - I'm back again - many thanks to the supportive posts from various people after my last rant. I continue to wobble between avoidance and mindfulness, but wobbling probably makes sense when inching forward on a tightrope. About values - I don't know if this will be helpful, but here are my thoughts at the moment. I have done the tombstone exercise, and the " ten valued domains " exercise (more than once for both). But the tombstone exercise inevitably seems too centered around what other people think of you, and the " ten valued domains " exercise seems designed to encourage value statements that sound like Hallmark Card slogans - much too vague, and very sappy. So I am groping my way toward my values through another cue offered by the workbook: on page 160, under the heading of " Pain and Values, " the authors suggest that if you're hurting about someone or something, very likely there is a value hidden beneath the hurt. The difficulty is unearthing this value when my mind sees only the hurt and doesn't want to let go of my current story, in which I am the victim and nothing can be done. Some examples I wrote down a few days ago in my journal: FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS: With my father, I am angry and hurt by his lifelong failure to be a loving father; with my mother, I'm guilty at not paying her enough attention (maybe too there is some guilt over not being a " good enough son, " plus a little anger at her not standing up to my father). But there is pain here, so obviously I must care even if I say I don't. My value might be to behave like a good son regardless of what my father does or doesn't do or is or isn't capable of feeling for me, and regardless of my guilt towards my mother. In other words, replace the " BUT " in my mind with an " AND. " Actions would be to check in with them, listen to them, see how I can help them as they get older and need more help with simple things. There is a danger here of one-upmanship; that I will be saying to myself, " See, I'm a much better person than my bad dad. " And that might occur at a level I'm not always aware of. But I can still respond to my value rather than to my victim story. WORK: Clearly I want to return to writing fiction and " serious " non-fiction, possibly journalism. Just as clearly I am terrified by this and think all sorts of thoughts as to why the first is a bad idea or not possible, and the second is overwhelming and won't satisfy me anyway, so why bother? The value and actions here are clear but I'm still not willing to make the commitment without hedging or avoiding. Hmm. INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP: With my girlfriend I feel guilt for being so hard to live with. Usually I tell myself that I can't find my value here because of the avalanche of guilt - but that's just my mind's version of the story. Maybe one value here is to seek out fun, romantic things for us to do together - the sort of things we did when we first met and that both of us would still like to do despite our cares and responsibilities; do this AND feel guilty or sad or angry or happy or whatever. My mind will remind me how " bad " I am every time I make a mistake or some painful event occurs; but that is only my mind trying to be " right " in shaping its current story. Plus, values aren't based on outcomes, even though minds would like them to be. Anyway, for me this approach gets closer to the nub than the Hallmark Card stuff. It also brings up all the mind demons you mention, all the chatter. Maybe that's something to consider, too: If thinking about values gets you all confused and anxious, then that's actually good, not bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Bel, Do you think it would be at all helpful to take a momentary break from the values worksheet and turn your attention to the angst you are feeling regarding it? In other words, sit with the feelings of having to get it " spot on " . Why might it be so important to get it perfectly right? Personally, I think this world could benefit a great deal from having more Bels who value compassion, caring and a desire to connect deeply with others. (Even if he can't figure out how to be " spot on " in describing these values!) Cheers, natural > > Ok, Hi everyone, sorry to harp on about this, but I seem to be > experiencing a fairly intense anxiety when I start > examining " values " . > > It's unbelievable but EVERY time I start working on my 'life > compass' sheet, my mind stresses out and naturally there is the huge > upswell of physical anxiety that goes with it, then the bi-product > is that my mind is so unsettled that it's difficult to work on the > life compass with any sort of detachment. > > My mind is quite obsessed with making sure that I have got my > values 'spot on'. To show you an example..One of my values seems to > be 'caring' in a relationship, I read what I am supposed to do on > the sheet which is to 'dig for the underlying motives' and then I > discover that the reason I want to care (which by action is to > listen, ask questions, take time to understand another etc) is > to 'connect' with another person. It seems I have a strong desire > to 'connect' with people, to feel understood, be that partner or > friend or work and through those 'caring actions' I experience > connection. > > So, I am muddled...I have no idea what the value is, caring or > Connection? and then to top it off I now feel guilty for wanting > to " connect " deeply with people! arghhhh!! > > any input thanked in advance! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 thankyou : ) I am finding it interesting from the observer perspective that my mind is insisting on getting it " spot on " and how much discomfort this is bringing up. And I do thank you from my heart for your comments about compassion and connecting deeply- I know my mind is throwing up all sort of talk about these values at the moment and I am getting into some pretty interesting rope pulling. I just do hope I can do my homework for my psych though, it troubles me that on trying to do my homework I seem to be floundering! and if I am choosing " not to engage in the activity " when its blowing my mind into anxiety to the point of not being able to think clearly, then I am then worried I am " avoiding the issues " Oh dear! It's ok, my sense of humor is still in tact about what my mind is doing at this stage but damn it I WANNA do my homework!! night night all > > > Bel, > > Do you think it would be at all helpful to take a momentary break > from the values worksheet and turn your attention to the angst you > are feeling regarding it? In other words, sit with the feelings of > having to get it " spot on " . Why might it be so important to get it > perfectly right? > Personally, I think this world could benefit a great deal from > having more Bels who value compassion, caring and a desire to connect > deeply with others. (Even if he can't figure out how to be " spot on " > in describing these values!) > > Cheers, > natural > > > > > > > Ok, Hi everyone, sorry to harp on about this, but I seem to be > > experiencing a fairly intense anxiety when I start > > examining " values " . > > > > It's unbelievable but EVERY time I start working on my 'life > > compass' sheet, my mind stresses out and naturally there is the > huge > > upswell of physical anxiety that goes with it, then the bi- product > > is that my mind is so unsettled that it's difficult to work on the > > life compass with any sort of detachment. > > > > My mind is quite obsessed with making sure that I have got my > > values 'spot on'. To show you an example..One of my values seems to > > be 'caring' in a relationship, I read what I am supposed to do on > > the sheet which is to 'dig for the underlying motives' and then I > > discover that the reason I want to care (which by action is to > > listen, ask questions, take time to understand another etc) is > > to 'connect' with another person. It seems I have a strong desire > > to 'connect' with people, to feel understood, be that partner or > > friend or work and through those 'caring actions' I experience > > connection. > > > > So, I am muddled...I have no idea what the value is, caring or > > Connection? and then to top it off I now feel guilty for wanting > > to " connect " deeply with people! arghhhh!! > > > > any input thanked in advance! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 You reminded me of something about myself, with your references to the Hallmark Card stuff. When I was using drugs, just about all postive thoughts fell into this category. Now, I am more likely to be the one to come up with the sappy stuff. So you got me started trying to figure out what that’s about, because I still sometimes react negatively to postive thoughts. Sometimes I think it is because I don’t believe the person expressing the stuff is sincere, or it is expressed in such a blanket sort of mass email sort of way was to be obviously not really intended as a personal communication to me. Other times I think I am jealous that someone can feel such positives when I feel so negative. But I think in the end it has something to do with willingness. Am I willing to risk believing in positives, despite my fear that it is not “real” or “possible”? Am I willing to accept positive thoughts without discounting them? I like your method of using ‘hurt’ as a signal for finding ‘value’. It reminds me of the AA way of using ‘resentments against others’ as flags to show me where I may have an opportunity to make amends for my part in the harm. Greg R From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of usable_thought Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 8:00 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: values AGAIN > So, I am muddled...I have no idea what the value is, caring or > Connection? and then to top it off I now feel guilty for wanting > to " connect " deeply with people! arghhhh!! Hi - I'm back again - many thanks to the supportive posts from various people after my last rant. I continue to wobble between avoidance and mindfulness, but wobbling probably makes sense when inching forward on a tightrope. About values - I don't know if this will be helpful, but here are my thoughts at the moment. I have done the tombstone exercise, and the " ten valued domains " exercise (more than once for both). But the tombstone exercise inevitably seems too centered around what other people think of you, and the " ten valued domains " exercise seems designed to encourage value statements that sound like Hallmark Card slogans - much too vague, and very sappy. So I am groping my way toward my values through another cue offered by the workbook: on page 160, under the heading of " Pain and Values, " the authors suggest that if you're hurting about someone or something, very likely there is a value hidden beneath the hurt. The difficulty is unearthing this value when my mind sees only the hurt and doesn't want to let go of my current story, in which I am the victim and nothing can be done. Some examples I wrote down a few days ago in my journal: FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS: With my father, I am angry and hurt by his lifelong failure to be a loving father; with my mother, I'm guilty at not paying her enough attention (maybe too there is some guilt over not being a " good enough son, " plus a little anger at her not standing up to my father). But there is pain here, so obviously I must care even if I say I don't. My value might be to behave like a good son regardless of what my father does or doesn't do or is or isn't capable of feeling for me, and regardless of my guilt towards my mother. In other words, replace the " BUT " in my mind with an " AND. " Actions would be to check in with them, listen to them, see how I can help them as they get older and need more help with simple things. There is a danger here of one-upmanship; that I will be saying to myself, " See, I'm a much better person than my bad dad. " And that might occur at a level I'm not always aware of. But I can still respond to my value rather than to my victim story. WORK: Clearly I want to return to writing fiction and " serious " non-fiction, possibly journalism. Just as clearly I am terrified by this and think all sorts of thoughts as to why the first is a bad idea or not possible, and the second is overwhelming and won't satisfy me anyway, so why bother? The value and actions here are clear but I'm still not willing to make the commitment without hedging or avoiding. Hmm. INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP: With my girlfriend I feel guilt for being so hard to live with. Usually I tell myself that I can't find my value here because of the avalanche of guilt - but that's just my mind's version of the story. Maybe one value here is to seek out fun, romantic things for us to do together - the sort of things we did when we first met and that both of us would still like to do despite our cares and responsibilities; do this AND feel guilty or sad or angry or happy or whatever. My mind will remind me how " bad " I am every time I make a mistake or some painful event occurs; but that is only my mind trying to be " right " in shaping its current story. Plus, values aren't based on outcomes, even though minds would like them to be. Anyway, for me this approach gets closer to the nub than the Hallmark Card stuff. It also brings up all the mind demons you mention, all the chatter. Maybe that's something to consider, too: If thinking about values gets you all confused and anxious, then that's actually good, not bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Bel -- Try this... What would other people see you do in relationships? What would you see yourself doing if you could look at your actions in relationships? And, are these actions what you want to be about? If they are not happening, then what is standing between you and doing what you want to do? Consider this too -- will someone else be able to see your motives, thoughts, intensions, feelings (all the stuff that may be going on inside) as you move forward engaging the value of showing caring, showing love, showing understanding, helping, being a good steward, listening, and the like in relationships? Your mind might tell you this stuff is important, but the truth is that no one knows that you are truly thinking or feeling inside. They will 100% know what you do because that is what they can see. The values parts can seem overwhelming, but there is a simplicity in there. Values are about doing -- actions (big and small). This is what others see. Actions are what, over time, add up to something. You can't think or feel your way into a vital life. You need to do something with your hands, feet, and mouth. You need to do it because only you can do it. What others may do in response is up to them, but not something you can control. Love is a good example of this too. When people talk about loving relationships, they are not just talking about " tell me that you love me. " Sure, that's important. But the real deal is what people do to show a person that they love them -- " show me that you love me. " And, there are lots of ways, big and small, to show love. The point though is that you have to do it and do it again and again if you want to be about that. Feeling love, thinking love is not enough. The same is true of other valued areas of your life, in and out of relationships. I've found it helpful at times, particularly when experiencing being stuck, to ask myself what is getting in the way? And, if the things that stand between me and what I want to do are thoughts, memories, feelings (the stuff inside) I then gently ask myself " whether I am willing to sacrifice doing something that I care about, something that is vital to me, for the sake of comfort or for the sake of what my private experiences are telling me. " Usually, the answer is always no. Hope this was of some help. Peace -john P. Forsyth University at Albany, SUNY Department of Psychology, SS369 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 Ph: Fax: email: forsyth@... http://www.albany.edu/~forsyth http://www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com http://www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com values AGAIN Ok, Hi everyone, sorry to harp on about this, but I seem to be experiencing a fairly intense anxiety when I start examining " values " . It's unbelievable but EVERY time I start working on my 'life compass' sheet, my mind stresses out and naturally there is the huge upswell of physical anxiety that goes with it, then the bi-product is that my mind is so unsettled that it's difficult to work on the life compass with any sort of detachment. My mind is quite obsessed with making sure that I have got my values 'spot on'. To show you an example..One of my values seems to be 'caring' in a relationship, I read what I am supposed to do on the sheet which is to 'dig for the underlying motives' and then I discover that the reason I want to care (which by action is to listen, ask questions, take time to understand another etc) is to 'connect' with another person. It seems I have a strong desire to 'connect' with people, to feel understood, be that partner or friend or work and through those 'caring actions' I experience connection. So, I am muddled...I have no idea what the value is, caring or Connection? and then to top it off I now feel guilty for wanting to " connect " deeply with people! arghhhh!! any input thanked in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Thanks and Greg yep that makes good sense and has actually given me a grounding effect in that my 'actions' do seem to be lining up with the value of 'caring' in a realtionship. I wonder can it get a little perscriptive though? in that if my 'actions' mean that I listen, ask questions, show an active interest, etc then it becomes almost like an expectation that I would want this back in order to keep living out my value, as when it's not returned I find it extremly difficult to keep living out this value?. I'm not actually sure I need answer to that question as my wisdom seems to tell me that of course a relationship where your deepest values are reciprocated is healthy and allows you to be the person you most value. thanks! Bel > Bel -- Try this... What would other people see you do in relationships? What would you see yourself doing if you could look at your actions in relationships? And, are these actions what you want to be about? If they are not happening, then what is standing between you and doing what you want to do? > > Consider this too -- will someone else be able to see your motives, thoughts, intensions, feelings (all the stuff that may be going on inside) as you move forward engaging the value of showing caring, showing love, showing understanding, helping, being a good steward, listening, and the like in relationships? Your mind might tell you this stuff is important, but the truth is that no one knows that you are truly thinking or feeling inside. They will 100% know what you do because that is what they can see. > > The values parts can seem overwhelming, but there is a simplicity in there. Values are about doing -- actions (big and small). This is what others see. Actions are what, over time, add up to something. You can't think or feel your way into a vital life. You need to do something with your hands, feet, and mouth. You need to do it because only you can do it. What others may do in response is up to them, but not something you can control. > > Love is a good example of this too. When people talk about loving relationships, they are not just talking about " tell me that you love me. " Sure, that's important. But the real deal is what people do to show a person that they love them -- " show me that you love me. " And, there are lots of ways, big and small, to show love. The point though is that you have to do it and do it again and again if you want to be about that. Feeling love, thinking love is not enough. The same is true of other valued areas of your life, in and out of relationships. > > I've found it helpful at times, particularly when experiencing being stuck, to ask myself what is getting in the way? And, if the things that stand between me and what I want to do are thoughts, memories, feelings (the stuff inside) I then gently ask myself " whether I am willing to sacrifice doing something that I care about, something that is vital to me, for the sake of comfort or for the sake of what my private experiences are telling me. " Usually, the answer is always no. > > Hope this was of some help. > > Peace -john > > P. Forsyth > University at Albany, SUNY > Department of Psychology, SS369 > 1400 Washington Avenue > Albany, NY 12222 > Ph: > Fax: > email: forsyth@... > http://www.albany.edu/~forsyth > http://www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com > http://www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com > > values AGAIN > > > Ok, Hi everyone, sorry to harp on about this, but I seem to be > experiencing a fairly intense anxiety when I start > examining " values " . > > It's unbelievable but EVERY time I start working on my 'life > compass' sheet, my mind stresses out and naturally there is the huge > upswell of physical anxiety that goes with it, then the bi-product > is that my mind is so unsettled that it's difficult to work on the > life compass with any sort of detachment. > > My mind is quite obsessed with making sure that I have got my > values 'spot on'. To show you an example..One of my values seems to > be 'caring' in a relationship, I read what I am supposed to do on > the sheet which is to 'dig for the underlying motives' and then I > discover that the reason I want to care (which by action is to > listen, ask questions, take time to understand another etc) is > to 'connect' with another person. It seems I have a strong desire > to 'connect' with people, to feel understood, be that partner or > friend or work and through those 'caring actions' I experience > connection. > > So, I am muddled...I have no idea what the value is, caring or > Connection? and then to top it off I now feel guilty for wanting > to " connect " deeply with people! arghhhh!! > > any input thanked in advance! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 > I wonder can it get a little perscriptive though? in that if > my 'actions' mean that I listen, ask questions, show an active > interest, etc then it becomes almost like an expectation that I > would want this back in order to keep living out my value, as when > it's not returned I find it extremly difficult to keep living out > this value?. It may be that the wonderful thing about taking action on a value (instead of for " reasons " ) is that you get to keep all your difficult feelings and thoughts and history and still do the action. Since posting this morning, I have decided to start acting on my value of caring for my parents - including my annoying, emotionally unavailable father. So since I hadn't talked to them for many weeks, I called up to say hi. Of course my mom is out and my father answers, and per usual his response was underwhelming. As I hung up I realized I was more bemused this time than angry - but anger would have been OK too. I think before ACT I would have been more prone to buy the thought that " my father is a son-of-a-bitch so I can't do X. " Now the thought can be " my father is a son-of-a-bitch and I can do X. " With friends and lovers I find it harder to know what to do because reciprocity seems more of a requirement than with blood relations - yet reciprocity is slippery and I think now I have often defined it very narrowly, to avoid risking vulnerability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 I think that the values section of the ACT model needs further work, myself. From one point of view, the "Hallmark" tone that some people hear, and the guilty, anxious, resistant response it elicits is not just "negative" thinking or "unwillingness" -- it's a learned and possibly helpful response to being asked to respond and even fuse with thoughts that are inevitably associated with heavy "shoulds". The examples in the workbook are all around traditional and broad societal values -- productivity, kindness, tolerance, and so on. The sense that these are good values mixes with our experience, universal for most since age 13, that the effort to be "virtuous" is hooked up with unhappy and redundant failure and guilt. That's why they may sound either fatuous and a little saccharine (ie, inauthentic), or problematically superegoic, to use a quaint but still useful metaphor. There is only a very small section of the workbook addressing guilt (I had to search for it), and although there is a good and thorough section on what values are NOT, it's deliberately subtle and paradoxical, and I think that in actual practice most everyone ends up conflating values with static (mostly ethical) goals and ethical ideals. Shoulds. And then we are back on the chessboard again. That's why everyone says to those who suddenly flounder when they get to that point in the workbook, "go back to earlier sections again". You can't simultaneously step off the chessboard while selecting some thoughts and subsequent actions as "good" and others as "bad". Although the workbook tries hard not to take us there, it apparently does, especially to the extent that it almost covertly (by omission) assumes without saying so that our values are in synch with fairly standard societal "virtues". I'm thinking of an ancient poem written by a chinese monk who, after many terrible travails in the world, retires to a small hut and lives the rest of his life in solitary, contemplative poverty. When told about the affairs of his country, or scandals and upsets in his family, he responds, "ly I don't want to be bothered. Go away." There's a value in action, and it worked out for that monk in his particular circumstance. Might not be Steve's or yours or mine, but I know that I'm not comfortable with the pursuit of "virtue" and "productivity" and "honesty", and "connectedness" etc., in that self-pressing way that keeps seeping up in the values section. Been there, done that. I pretty quickly discovered that my "values" in all of the life-realms are the same, and congruent with the earlier sections of the book -- to be awake, aware, fully present, flexibly responsive, and free from blind, automatic response to the endless flow of mentation and conditioned, felt response in every situation that arises. That seems quite sufficient. And I'm not sure i even want to call that a "value", even in the rather subtle ACT way. I just like awareness better than unawareness, overall. Things work out better. So, when I can remember to, I prefer to bring awareness of just the sort that is cultivated in the first part of the ACT book, to situations. Usually. : )That would include situations in which painful indecision, immobilizing depression, neurotic anxiety, crushing defeat, habitual error, destructive anger, agonizing loss, strong and probably catastrophic impulse, deep unwillingness, and suffocating guilt and remorse arise. And etc. Also when awareness of unawareness arises. I'm not interested in making awareness into a rule, either, not even a light one. Been there done that, too.Mind wants to make internal battles. Maybe most especially it likes to get things all tangled around "values" in the sense that they are being discussed here. When I just stay aware in the present, I'm much less likely to bring pain to myself and others. When I fall asleep at the wheel and fuse with my hypermentation and reflexive desire to avoid pain and seek pleasure rather than be just be awake, open and aware in the accepted situation, the pain becomes suffering, and it escalates into more suffering, for myself and others, too. If I grab onto that insight and make it a value, even a well-deconstructed ACT sort of value, mind wants to get het up about how well I'm doing, and off we go. Naw. So that's enough value and enough work for a lifetime, it seems to me. Just to pay attention. So how does one know what to DO from "just here"?If I'm driving my own bus, it's to here. The path is the goal -- that's the wisdom of the first part of the book, and my own experience has been that what the insight meditation people call skillful means (which has a slightly different feel than the heavier "right action", but amounts to the same thing) arises from that naturally. If right now you are lying in bed at noon and not going to work because you are suffused with anxiety and dread of the world, and you bring your full awareness to that, to the sensations and the thinking and etc., with no resistance or self judgement, if you don't fuse with the mentation etc. but pay full, nonjudgemental and open attention to it, then you are in a better position to respond freely and fully to what is going on. It is, for instance, extremely uncomfortable for people who understand that smoking is poisonous to smoke a cigarette with absolutely full awareness -- the desire to put it down becomes very strong and every inhalation feels disgusting and dangerous. One has to forcibly shut down that awareness in order to finish the thing. Why set up a value called "to take care of my body" when it arises naturally with the willingness to be aware and attentive? Later you may want to throw your body under a moving train to save your daughter. Values as such become rigid, even though I think that Steve does not mean them to, and you really don't want to be standing in that situation, anxiously weighing "compassion" against "health" at that moment. Your authentic value will spontaneously emerge.I would rather say that the value arises with the situation. If you are lost in unawareness, on auto-pilot, in what Tolle calls "pain body", and fighting with someone, or sullenly withdrawing, or refusing something wanted but difficult, or sinking into vortexes of despair, or panicking, or shutting down altogether, whatever, and you suddenly remember to bring your full awareness into whatever the situation is, then you'll find yourself driving your own bus again, even if you are suddenly just sitting there doing nothing at all except paying attention. Or maybe fully noticing and experiencing that you are screaming abuse at your father, or mindfully huddling and trembling in your room, or mindfully on the phone saying that you are too ill to go to work or too frightened to speak in public, or mindfully washing your hundredth doorknob of the day, while you mindfully note the dark and dramatic thoughts and feelings floating by... . all of a sudden they are just floating by, on little leaves if you like, and, um.... I mean, sometimes I really crack myself up, don't you? Once we stop feeding whatever is causing trouble by either fusing with the (escalating) mentation or trying to resist it by pitting "better" thoughts against it, we are in fact moving into the driver's seat. Yes? At that point something like a value that is most suitable for that particular situation might arise, and there is a little space in which to to respond flexibly and mindfully to the what's going on. That, I think, will be more likely to be an authentic value, and more likely to disclose a workable and appropriate behavior, than any that might flow from a previous commitment to "be compassionate", etc.The first impulse when, say, we're experiencing the (ubiquitous and inevitable) pain of a breakup is to get out of the pain. Maybe a pill would do it. Maybe we should call her. Maybe you should do this, maybe you should do that, anything to avoid full, open awareness and even acceptance of the pain. That's how we all are. But if you just apply the techniques so wonderfully and creatively introduced in the first part of the ACT book, maybe you find that rather than being driven to compulsive action to escape the pain, you can just pay attention to it, tenderly allow it, even open to it, defuse from the spiraling narrative about the unbearability of it all, and experience it gently and mindfully, straight-up. And notice that if you don't feed it, it tends to just float by until it's finished floating by.You might find that once you really are willing to do that, maybe a value that you haven't consciously precooked arises all by itself: perhaps willingness to acknowledge and tolerate suffering without being blown all around by it (at work, in relationships, etc); perhaps self-knowledge; perhaps the capacity to gracefully endure things not going according to personal agenda; perhaps the capacity to let go when the time comes to let go; who knows? We relearn old habits as we travel in awareness. Maybe you just want to cry when crying happens. At least you won't be anxiously injecting "how can i be connective and caring and a good steward and productive and still be honest and self-protective?" etc. etc. into a situation that naturally calls up a different value altogether. I guess I like my values to surprise me. I like them to arise fresh and straight up, from each particular situation. I like being able to have completely contradictory values and not take them awfully seriously as entities. I like Zorba. Because Zorba is authentic, his compassion is way out of the box, very spontaneous and free. His values are more like water than they are like rock. They are shifty, depending upon circumstance. You may not, but I like that. : )PS The value that asserts itself under hurt, , is happiness. You can't quite see it because it's too close and too obvious. You value happiness, and your situation won't give you what you think will make you happy. The genius of ACT is in it's recognition that , paradoxically, we don't get happy trying to get happy. We get happy when loosen our demands and expectations for happiness, and willingly carry our pain into a lived life. Everyone, as the Dalai Lama keeps reiterating, wants to be happy. Personal happiness is EVERYONE'S core value, like it or not. Very tricky.Seems to me that values in the sense that you are using them here just make trouble: their values against my values, my value of honesty conflicting with my value of getting along with my husband's family, and so on. The values have suddenly become rather rigid rules, and now you are stuck with resentment that everyone's values aren't the same as yours. Harmony versus honesty -- well, that's a pretty common, always tricky situation. Hurt that others hold opinions about you that would seem to insult your own self-opinion. (Who wouldn't feel hurt? It's how we are. But how much story do you want to make here? "In the service of what" is getting enmeshed in all of these thoughts about unworthiness, and unworthiness because of feeling unworthy, and so on? And where exactly is "deep down inside?" Once you've thought a thought, there it is, right before your watchful eyes -- "I am unworthy of unhappiness". How about, "thank you very much for that data, mind, I think I will take a walk and see the spring flowers." ? ) Bottom line is, you don't get you way if you keep quiet and honor the value of family harmony, and you don't get your own way if you speak honestly and disrupt things that you also value in the service of "not being a liar". If you buy into the thought that you don't deserve happiness, and it makes you miserable, you have also bought into the thought "I deserve happiness"; otherwise you would not feel be experiencing suffering around the first thought. They are thoughts. "I deserve to be happy". " I don't deserve to be happy." They are just thoughts. Ephemeral thoughts and feelings unless we decide to make a very big deal with them. This happens all of the time for all of us. I wonder if it might not be helpful to drop "values" here, and the story line, and just acknowledge the pain inherent in the situation when it arises, with acceptance in the ACT sense of the word, without feeding it with more problem-making, fused cognitions? If you are paying deep, defused attention you may find that you are responding to the situation as well as you can without all of that mental noise complicating things. Or something surprising may occur to you by way of respose. And the pain might just be regular life pain. There may be no solution that brings you thorough satisfaction. It might be just old little mind making it seem so claustrophobic, dangerous, demanding, complicted and difficult. It might just be Aunt Ida again. "Sigh". That might be enough?Namaste,Becca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Personally I am still experiencing trouble with the whole values thing. The first time I tried to work through it I couldnt relate to any of it at all. Having worked through all the exercises in the rest of the book I managed a little better and came up with one or two things for a couple of the domains the second time. But for me what I came up with didnt seem to relate to the situations where I slam straight into my unwillingness and use avoidance. My mind keeps telling me that I dont value anything. So I am looking more at committing to doing things and pattern smashing based on my unwillingness. However I am finding it is very difficult to keep a balance that I can sustain, and have ended up with too many challenging things to handle each week. I have just had a go at the 3x5 cards exercise from steves blog (thanks for that link Em), and I'm not suprised that the reverse of several things that I think I struggle with is just feeling. I have added them to my pain head to carry round with me for a while J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 There are, of course, good reasons why society has settled on the types of values you mention. A society based on sloth, intolerance, etc. probably wouldn’t work very well. Which does leave us a terrible dilemma if we think we want to rebel against everything civilized society stands for. We don’t have too many good choices for our actions once we reject all the good stuff. Can we grow up and be willing to live with the good stuff? Even if somebody else thought of it first? I think you highlight an important area here in the obstacles we face when choosing our values. Suppose I come around to choosing “cultivating friendship” as the valued direction I want to commit to. But my mother was always harping on how important friendship is, and I absolutely hate agreeing with my mother. Which is more important? Honoring this ego quibble about my mother, or going ahead and choosing what is important to me? So, I agree that we want to try to ferret out what is my voice compared to others’ voices. But I want to allow room for those choices to be the same in cases where they are the same. The whole point is to choose the values I truly value. And to recognize stuff like guilt for what it is: thoughts that show up and try to get me to believe they are important. You’re right. There is no free pass from this stuff. The thinking machine is going to keep on churning stuff out. Awake, aware, free, etc. are nice qualities and attributes. But what gets you out of bed in the morning? It may not be “saving the planet,” but are there really no valued directions you want to pursue? And you’re right again about my mind wanting to compare and evaluate how I’m doing on those values. It’s important to stress that we are talking about choosing a direction, not a result. I, as an individual human being, can control the actions I commit to doing. I cannot control how the world will react to my actions. I am responsible for taking actions I commit to taking based on the valued direction I want to go in. The world will determine how far I get, and how fast. I’m not too sure about values conflicting with each other. Not in the sense we mean here. There will be moral dilemmas, and knowing what valued direction I want to pursue generally helps me with those. Honesty vs. Harmony? What kind of “Harmony” do you have without Honesty? But those are too general to be very helpful to me. Yes, there are difficult decisions to be made in life. I always recommend lots of input from other people you respect. The Buddhists speak of “Skillful Means” that must sometimes be employed with honesty. I would have to put more meat on the bones of concepts like “compassion” or “health” in order to commit to valued action in those areas. Compassion for who? I think part of your dilemma is coming from this problem. If I commit to improving my health by going to the gym twice a week, I have something I can do. Just “health” doesn’t get me going, you’re right. Happiness is a no-go as a value for me. Happiness is an emotion that will come and go. What valued direction will help you include happiness as one of the emotions in your life? As well as be willing to accept sadness? The question is, what is the most important thing to you, that you can commit to doing tomorrow? And are you willing to do it, even if you don’t feel like it, even if you are not happy, even if someone you don’t like suggests that you do it right when you were about to start? Even if you don’t feel awake, aware and free that day. Not because you “should” but because you have chosen to do it because it is going to take you in a direction that you, yourself, value. Greg R From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of bekka Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:48 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: values AGAIN I think that the values section of the ACT model needs further work, myself. From one point of view, the " Hallmark " tone that some people hear, and the guilty, anxious, resistant response it elicits is not just " negative " thinking or " unwillingness " -- it's a learned and possibly helpful response to being asked to respond and even fuse with thoughts that are inevitably associated with heavy " shoulds " . The examples in the workbook are all around traditional and broad societal values -- productivity, kindness, tolerance, and so on. The sense that these are good values mixes with our experience, universal for most since age 13, that the effort to be " virtuous " is hooked up with unhappy and redundant failure and guilt. That's why they may sound either fatuous and a little saccharine (ie, inauthentic), or problematically superegoic, to use a quaint but still useful metaphor. There is only a very small section of the workbook addressing guilt (I had to search for it), and although there is a good and thorough section on what values are NOT, it's deliberately subtle and paradoxical, and I think that in actual practice most everyone ends up conflating values with static (mostly ethical) goals and ethical ideals. Shoulds. And then we are back on the chessboard again. That's why everyone says to those who suddenly flounder when they get to that point in the workbook, " go back to earlier sections again " . You can't simultaneously step off the chessboard while selecting some thoughts and subsequent actions as " good " and others as " bad " . Although the workbook tries hard not to take us there, it apparently does, especially to the extent that it almost covertly (by omission) assumes without saying so that our values are in synch with fairly standard societal " virtues " . I'm thinking of an ancient poem written by a chinese monk who, after many terrible travails in the world, retires to a small hut and lives the rest of his life in solitary, contemplative poverty. When told about the affairs of his country, or scandals and upsets in his family, he responds, " ly I don't want to be bothered. Go away. " There's a value in action, and it worked out for that monk in his particular circumstance. Might not be Steve's or yours or mine, but I know that I'm not comfortable with the pursuit of " virtue " and " productivity " and " honesty " , and " connectedness " etc., in that self-pressing way that keeps seeping up in the values section. Been there, done that. I pretty quickly discovered that my " values " in all of the life-realms are the same, and congruent with the earlier sections of the book -- to be awake, aware, fully present, flexibly responsive, and free from blind, automatic response to the endless flow of mentation and conditioned, felt response in every situation that arises. That seems quite sufficient. And I'm not sure i even want to call that a " value " , even in the rather subtle ACT way. I just like awareness better than unawareness, overall. Things work out better. So, when I can remember to, I prefer to bring awareness of just the sort that is cultivated in the first part of the ACT book, to situations. Usually. : ) That would include situations in which painful indecision, immobilizing depression, neurotic anxiety, crushing defeat, habitual error, destructive anger, agonizing loss, strong and probably catastrophic impulse, deep unwillingness, and suffocating guilt and remorse arise. And etc. Also when awareness of unawareness arises. I'm not interested in making awareness into a rule, either, not even a light one. Been there done that, too. Mind wants to make internal battles. Maybe most especially it likes to get things all tangled around " values " in the sense that they are being discussed here. When I just stay aware in the present, I'm much less likely to bring pain to myself and others. When I fall asleep at the wheel and fuse with my hypermentation and reflexive desire to avoid pain and seek pleasure rather than be just be awake, open and aware in the accepted situation, the pain becomes suffering, and it escalates into more suffering, for myself and others, too. If I grab onto that insight and make it a value, even a well-deconstructed ACT sort of value, mind wants to get het up about how well I'm doing, and off we go. Naw. So that's enough value and enough work for a lifetime, it seems to me. Just to pay attention. So how does one know what to DO from " just here " ? If I'm driving my own bus, it's to here. The path is the goal -- that's the wisdom of the first part of the book, and my own experience has been that what the insight meditation people call skillful means (which has a slightly different feel than the heavier " right action " , but amounts to the same thing) arises from that naturally. If right now you are lying in bed at noon and not going to work because you are suffused with anxiety and dread of the world, and you bring your full awareness to that, to the sensations and the thinking and etc., with no resistance or self judgement, if you don't fuse with the mentation etc. but pay full, nonjudgemental and open attention to it, then you are in a better position to respond freely and fully to what is going on. It is, for instance, extremely uncomfortable for people who understand that smoking is poisonous to smoke a cigarette with absolutely full awareness -- the desire to put it down becomes very strong and every inhalation feels disgusting and dangerous. One has to forcibly shut down that awareness in order to finish the thing. Why set up a value called " to take care of my body " when it arises naturally with the willingness to be aware and attentive? Later you may want to throw your body under a moving train to save your daughter. Values as such become rigid, even though I think that Steve does not mean them to, and you really don't want to be standing in that situation, anxiously weighing " compassion " against " health " at that moment. Your authentic value will spontaneously emerge. I would rather say that the value arises with the situation. If you are lost in unawareness, on auto-pilot, in what Tolle calls " pain body " , and fighting with someone, or sullenly withdrawing, or refusing something wanted but difficult, or sinking into vortexes of despair, or panicking, or shutting down altogether, whatever, and you suddenly remember to bring your full awareness into whatever the situation is, then you'll find yourself driving your own bus again, even if you are suddenly just sitting there doing nothing at all except paying attention. Or maybe fully noticing and experiencing that you are screaming abuse at your father, or mindfully huddling and trembling in your room, or mindfully on the phone saying that you are too ill to go to work or too frightened to speak in public, or mindfully washing your hundredth doorknob of the day, while you mindfully note the dark and dramatic thoughts and feelings floating by... . all of a sudden they are just floating by, on little leaves if you like, and, um.... I mean, sometimes I really crack myself up, don't you? Once we stop feeding whatever is causing trouble by either fusing with the (escalating) mentation or trying to resist it by pitting " better " thoughts against it, we are in fact moving into the driver's seat. Yes? At that point something like a value that is most suitable for that particular situation might arise, and there is a little space in which to to respond flexibly and mindfully to the what's going on. That, I think, will be more likely to be an authentic value, and more likely to disclose a workable and appropriate behavior, than any that might flow from a previous commitment to " be compassionate " , etc. The first impulse when, say, we're experiencing the (ubiquitous and inevitable) pain of a breakup is to get out of the pain. Maybe a pill would do it. Maybe we should call her. Maybe you should do this, maybe you should do that, anything to avoid full, open awareness and even acceptance of the pain. That's how we all are. But if you just apply the techniques so wonderfully and creatively introduced in the first part of the ACT book, maybe you find that rather than being driven to compulsive action to escape the pain, you can just pay attention to it, tenderly allow it, even open to it, defuse from the spiraling narrative about the unbearability of it all, and experience it gently and mindfully, straight-up. And notice that if you don't feed it, it tends to just float by until it's finished floating by. You might find that once you really are willing to do that, maybe a value that you haven't consciously precooked arises all by itself: perhaps willingness to acknowledge and tolerate suffering without being blown all around by it (at work, in relationships, etc); perhaps self-knowledge; perhaps the capacity to gracefully endure things not going according to personal agenda; perhaps the capacity to let go when the time comes to let go; who knows? We relearn old habits as we travel in awareness. Maybe you just want to cry when crying happens. At least you won't be anxiously injecting " how can i be connective and caring and a good steward and productive and still be honest and self-protective? " etc. etc. into a situation that naturally calls up a different value altogether. I guess I like my values to surprise me. I like them to arise fresh and straight up, from each particular situation. I like being able to have completely contradictory values and not take them awfully seriously as entities. I like Zorba. Because Zorba is authentic, his compassion is way out of the box, very spontaneous and free. His values are more like water than they are like rock. They are shifty, depending upon circumstance. You may not, but I like that. : ) PS The value that asserts itself under hurt, , is happiness. You can't quite see it because it's too close and too obvious. You value happiness, and your situation won't give you what you think will make you happy. The genius of ACT is in it's recognition that , paradoxically, we don't get happy trying to get happy. We get happy when loosen our demands and expectations for happiness, and willingly carry our pain into a lived life. Everyone, as the Dalai Lama keeps reiterating, wants to be happy. Personal happiness is EVERYONE'S core value, like it or not. Very tricky. Seems to me that values in the sense that you are using them here just make trouble: their values against my values, my value of honesty conflicting with my value of getting along with my husband's family, and so on. The values have suddenly become rather rigid rules, and now you are stuck with resentment that everyone's values aren't the same as yours. Harmony versus honesty -- well, that's a pretty common, always tricky situation. Hurt that others hold opinions about you that would seem to insult your own self-opinion. (Who wouldn't feel hurt? It's how we are. But how much story do you want to make here? " In the service of what " is getting enmeshed in all of these thoughts about unworthiness, and unworthiness because of feeling unworthy, and so on? And where exactly is " deep down inside? " Once you've thought a thought, there it is, right before your watchful eyes -- " I am unworthy of unhappiness " . How about, " thank you very much for that data, mind, I think I will take a walk and see the spring flowers. " ? ) Bottom line is, you don't get you way if you keep quiet and honor the value of family harmony, and you don't get your own way if you speak honestly and disrupt things that you also value in the service of " not being a liar " . If you buy into the thought that you don't deserve happiness, and it makes you miserable, you have also bought into the thought " I deserve happiness " ; otherwise you would not feel be experiencing suffering around the first thought. They are thoughts. " I deserve to be happy " . " I don't deserve to be happy. " They are just thoughts. Ephemeral thoughts and feelings unless we decide to make a very big deal with them. This happens all of the time for all of us. I wonder if it might not be helpful to drop " values " here, and the story line, and just acknowledge the pain inherent in the situation when it arises, with acceptance in the ACT sense of the word, without feeding it with more problem-making, fused cognitions? If you are paying deep, defused attention you may find that you are responding to the situation as well as you can without all of that mental noise complicating things. Or something surprising may occur to you by way of respose. And the pain might just be regular life pain. There may be no solution that brings you thorough satisfaction. It might be just old little mind making it seem so claustrophobic, dangerous, demanding, complicted and difficult. It might just be Aunt Ida again. " Sigh " . That might be enough? Namaste, Becca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 > If I grab onto that insight and make it a value, even > a well-deconstructed ACT sort of value, mind wants to get het up > about how well I'm doing, and off we go. Naw. > So that's enough value and enough work for a lifetime, it seems to > me. Just to pay attention. You suggest that mindfulness alone will lead us to do what is right for ourselves, but in my experience this isn't so. Certainly not for me and most mindfulness practitioners I know. Certainly not for Buddhists - although they pioneered many of the mindfulness techniques we use, the Eightfold Path has a lot more to it than just mindfulness. I have things I want to DO and my avoidance gets in the way of those things. Just telling myself that " mindfulness is enough " would be a great way for me to hide. It would be my mind talking. Where there are words there is mind - you can't get away from it. Why not put mind to good use when it's appropriate? And there are so many stories of Americans taking up Zen or Vipassana or some other form of mindfulness-based training, sticking with it for years, and still suffering phobias and depression and not coming to grips with their history, despite their hard-won skills. Personally I hope that ACT acquires a wider array of tools and techniques in the area of unearthing values, as this seems to be such a difficult crossroads in the therapy; but I don't doubt that the general principle is sound, and despite my kvetching I believe that even the existing tools have much to offer if I am willing. As long as we are still embodied beings, caught between our history and right now, life is about doing, about risking. Hey, even monks and hermits do: they do being monks and hermits. And from what I've heard it's not easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 I am a buddhist, and have been practicing for about 30 years. I've expressed myself unclearly -- all that training wasted! : ) I think that you are absolutely right that many practitioners suffer from phobias and depression and etc., including me of course. Everyone is "neurotic", actually; everyone is suffering some. Katagiri Roshi was often suicidal; Chogyam Trungpa drank; really there was always something going on with most of the very realized Buddhist masters, and you know, right near me there is a whole monastery full of reputedly very depressed monks. All of the these persons practice meditation and have taken vows congruent with the eight-fold path and chosen them as a preferred "ongoing quality of action". I've known Buddhist students who became "Zen zombies" incapable of relating fluidly and authentically with the world, and students who became self-righteous virtue-mongers incapable of relating directly to their own mind or compassionately with others. There are highly regarded Buddhist masters who are lechers, and explosive-ragers, and judgemental prudes, and liars, and all sorts of things. Just like some therapists (also including me) and persons who have undergone years of psychotherapy. Often tangled up, just like me and you. When Steve says that values are not achievable as static objects he's not kidding. But Katigiri and Chogyam and other masters, and some of those monks do seem to possess some "quality of action" that I think does not arise from their "values". Just as you can "feel fusion" when you enter a room, you can feel it's absence. Being around really advanced practitioners is often described as "spacious"; it's something that is also very hard to describe. As I understand ACT, it is very pointedly NOT promising a way to get rid of all those problems; it's promising a way to live fully WITH them. Perhaps more "spaciously". But I don't pretend to be an ACT master, either.You have heard the phrase "If you see the Buddha in the road, kill him"? The Buddha here is a static, objective, reified idea about "goodness" or "enlightenment" in the Buddhist context; the admonishment points to the difference between fixed (or perhaps "fused") ideas about "goodness", which should be "killed" (or relegated to aunt Ida status, maybe), and the "way to be" that arises from one's own direct, open awareness. If we are open, we are vulnerable; if we are willing to be vulnerable then I think an authentic compassion arises naturally. Try it. Maybe I am wrong and this isn't universally true, but I think that if I have received an insult, or someone who I love has broken with me, or I am with a very angry person, and i am able to be aware of what's going on in the same way that I'm aware of my thoughts in meditation, without judgments or suppressing or avoiding or fusing with anything, then I will be paying attention to the other person in a compassionate way without adding or relying on a "value" called "compassion. I think that if we are willing to be fully aware like that, then we are challenged by situations; if we are willing to be challenged by situations, helpful action arises. This is my experience, anyway. If I go into a situation with a big intention to be compassionate, I'm more likely to be focused on my idea of compassion than on the other person, and likely to be disappointed and even hurtful in my actions. If I feel afraid of something that I need or want to do, and I'm willing to be open and vulnerable with my fear, I think I'm more likely to pay attention to the actual situation and respond effectively. So compassion, (for instance) I think, isn't best understood as as a "value" like that. The core values in Buddhism are wisdom (also called insight or right view), and (from Mahayana on, more vehemently) compassion (or mercy, or right action). Neither of these are to be understood as "fused" values. They are not "rules" in that sense. To cultivate the one without cultivating the other is, as they say, like flying with one wing. What I was responding to in here was expressed suffering around increasingly complicated and sticky thoughts that frequently seem to arise around the idea of values as understood by persons encountering it in the ACT workbook -- as when said she was stuck between honesty and promoting family harmony, which got all mixed in with thoughts about whether or not she deserved happiness, and so on. "Chattery, hard to figure out, heavy, conflicted", as Steve said. When Greg says "what's wrong with the 'good' stuff'? and talks about "the values of the civilized world", what i see is occasion for a good hearty argument between, say, a Muslim and an American Christian, and all around "fused values". There is no static "good stuff". If you study philosophy of ethics (another one of my formidable mistakes), what you discover is an irresolvable bunch of quarrels, a can of very confused worms. As I understand it, "values" has a pragmatic rather than an absolute function in ACT; the problem arises when consensual or absolute "goodness" is confused with "the goodness that gets me from here to there in this situation." (Zen Buddhism, and actually all practice schools, would ultimately take it a step further by encouraging a fully open and aware participation "here" as the unfolding springboard into... "here".) Although I think that ACT is the best psychotherapy model to come down the pike in a long time, I think that the workbook is somewhat muddled on this, the "value" thing, and I think that's why people get bogged down, rather than on account of an unwillingness on their part. Buddhist vows are worthless if they don't flow from awareness and insight, just as awareness and insight is useless if it doesn't give rise to right action. Frequently the Buddhist path begins with awareness practice, as does the ACT workbook. A Zen student isn't even allowed to take vows until a certain level of awareness has been reached, often many years. Otherwise they will just be transmogrified into dead injunctions like "be compassionate", "be honest", etc., (stuff you beat yourself up over and argue about). Practiced with awareness and real open attention, in the end they are all koans -- challenges to be fully present in the moment without a lot of preconceptions.It seems to me that Steve is aiming at something like this when he talks about a value as a "quality of action" rather than as an ideal or a goal, but it sounds like it starts getting heavy, mindy and etc for people when they try to put this into practice. > If I grab onto that insight and make it a value, even > a well-deconstructed ACT sort of value, mind wants to get het up > about how well I'm doing, and off we go. Naw. > So that's enough value and enough work for a lifetime, it seems to > me. Just to pay attention. You suggest that mindfulness alone will lead us to do what is right for ourselves, but in my experience this isn't so. Certainly not for me and most mindfulness practitioners I know. Certainly not for Buddhists - although they pioneered many of the mindfulness techniques we use, the Eightfold Path has a lot more to it than just mindfulness. I have things I want to DO and my avoidance gets in the way of those things. Just telling myself that "mindfulness is enough" would be a great way for me to hide. It would be my mind talking. Where there are words there is mind - you can't get away from it. Why not put mind to good use when it's appropriate? And there are so many stories of Americans taking up Zen or Vipassana or some other form of mindfulness-based training, sticking with it for years, and still suffering phobias and depression and not coming to grips with their history, despite their hard-won skills. Personally I hope that ACT acquires a wider array of tools and techniques in the area of unearthing values, as this seems to be such a difficult crossroads in the therapy; but I don't doubt that the general principle is sound, and despite my kvetching I believe that even the existing tools have much to offer if I am willing. As long as we are still embodied beings, caught between our history and right now, life is about doing, about risking. Hey, even monks and hermits do: they do being monks and hermits. And from what I've heard it's not easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Maybe " values " is a loaded word that sounds societal or judgemental or overly moralistic. My sense from the workbook and from other ACT readings was that your values must come from things that are meaningful and compelling to you personally -- in a deep, thrilling and emotional way -- not for some moral reason but because they make life worth living for you. For instance, I've been reading a biography of the novelist Yates (author of the classic " Revolutionary Road " and other great books). Yates was an alcoholic, self-destructive in the extreme, in and out of institutions, and so on and so forth, bad marriages, lots of stupid affairs, etc. But there are two things that remain constant throughout his life. 1) An impassioned love of writing and literature -- which never falters and which he remains true to, regardless of whatever chaos is going on. 2) A deep and genuine love for his daughters whom he protects from his alcoholic binges and treats with incredible tenderness and affection always. EVERYTHING else in his life feels like psychological chaos -- the result of a bad childhood, chemical imbalances, you name it. He seems to have no control over it. But these two things -- his love of literature and his love of his daughters -- seems like something Yates willfully devoted himself to -- because it was what was most important to him in this world. Obviously, this is not a " model " of psychological health. But it is an example of how VALUES work -- springing from some deep emotional well and giving direction to a tortured person. At least, that's how I've understood VALUES from reading the ACT material. > > > > If I grab onto that insight and make it a value, even > > > a well-deconstructed ACT sort of value, mind wants to get het up > > > about how well I'm doing, and off we go. Naw. > > > So that's enough value and enough work for a lifetime, it seems to > > > me. Just to pay attention. > > > > You suggest that mindfulness alone will lead us to do what is right > > for ourselves, but in my experience this isn't so. Certainly not for > > me and most mindfulness practitioners I know. Certainly not for > > Buddhists - although they pioneered many of the mindfulness techniques > > we use, the Eightfold Path has a lot more to it than just mindfulness. > > > > I have things I want to DO and my avoidance gets in the way of those > > things. Just telling myself that " mindfulness is enough " would be a > > great way for me to hide. It would be my mind talking. Where there are > > words there is mind - you can't get away from it. Why not put mind to > > good use when it's appropriate? > > > > And there are so many stories of Americans taking up Zen or Vipassana > > or some other form of mindfulness-based training, sticking with it for > > years, and still suffering phobias and depression and not coming to > > grips with their history, despite their hard-won skills. > > > > Personally I hope that ACT acquires a wider array of tools and > > techniques in the area of unearthing values, as this seems to be such > > a difficult crossroads in the therapy; but I don't doubt that the > > general principle is sound, and despite my kvetching I believe that > > even the existing tools have much to offer if I am willing. > > > > As long as we are still embodied beings, caught between our history > > and right now, life is about doing, about risking. Hey, even monks and > > hermits do: they do being monks and hermits. And from what I've heard > > it's not easy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 There are, of course, good reasons why society has settled on the types of values you mention. A society basedon sloth, intolerance, etc. probably wouldn’t work very well. Which does leave us a terrible dilemma if we think wewant to rebel against everything civilized society stands for. Huh? Who said anything about rebelling?We don’t have too many good choices for our actionsonce we reject all the good stuff. Who said anything about rejecting good stuff?Can we grow up and be willing to live with the good stuff? Even if somebody else thought of it first?I would hope so. The bad stuff, too. Not what I was saying at all. Awake, aware, free, etc. are nice qualities and attributes. But what gets you out of bed in the morning? I'm finished sleeping. Sometimes I need to go to work. I want to see what happens next. Sometimes i like to sleep in. This morning I was up at 6. Not a problem. Are you awakened by values? I mean, really?What valued direction will help you include happiness as one of the emotions inyour life? As well as be willing to accept sadness?I I don't seem to need to do anything to "help me include happiness" in my life. Happiness comes up plenty of the time. That's nice. So does sadness. I accept sadness by accepting sadness, by facing into it and opening to it and letting it be experienced without too much complication. Anything else i do with it seems to be a way of not accepting it. The question is, what is the most important thing to you, that you can commit to doing tomorrow? Pay attention. And are you willing to do it, even if you don’t feel like it, even if you are not happy, even if someone you don’t like suggests that you do it right when you were about to start? Yup.Even if you don’t feel awake, aware and free that day. Moot.Not because you “should” but because you have chosen to do it Rightbecause it is going to take you in a direction that you, yourself, value.You can call it a direction if you want to.Becca. From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of bekkaSent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:48 AMTo: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: values AGAIN I think that the values section of the ACT model needs further work, myself. From one point of view, the "Hallmark" tone that some people hear, and the guilty, anxious, resistant response it elicits is not just "negative" thinking or "unwillingness" -- it's a learned and possibly helpful response to being asked to respond and even fuse with thoughts that are inevitably associated with heavy "shoulds". The examples in the workbook are all around traditional and broad societal values -- productivity, kindness, tolerance, and so on. The sense that these are good values mixes with our experience, universal for most since age 13, that the effort to be "virtuous" is hooked up with unhappy and redundant failure and guilt. That's why they may sound either fatuous and a little saccharine (ie, inauthentic), or problematically superegoic, to use a quaint but still useful metaphor. There is only a very small section of the workbook addressing guilt (I had to search for it), and although there is a good and thorough section on what values are NOT, it's deliberately subtle and paradoxical, and I think that in actual practice most everyone ends up conflating values with static (mostly ethical) goals and ethical ideals. Shoulds. And then we are back on the chessboard again. That's why everyone says to those who suddenly flounder when they get to that point in the workbook, "go back to earlier sections again". You can't simultaneously step off the chessboard while selecting some thoughts and subsequent actions as "good" and others as "bad". Although the workbook tries hard not to take us there, it apparently does, especially to the extent that it almost covertly (by omission) assumes without saying so that our values are in synch with fairly standard societal "virtues". I'm thinking of an ancient poem written by a chinese monk who, after many terrible travails in the world, retires to a small hut and lives the rest of his life in solitary, contemplative poverty. When told about the affairs of his country, or scandals and upsets in his family, he responds, "ly I don't want to be bothered. Go away." There's a value in action, and it worked out for that monk in his particular circumstance. Might not be Steve's or yours or mine, but I know that I'm not comfortable with the pursuit of "virtue" and "productivity" and "honesty", and "connectedness" etc., in that self-pressing way that keeps seeping up in the values section. Been there, done that. I pretty quickly discovered that my "values" in all of the life-realms are the same, and congruent with the earlier sections of the book -- to be awake, aware, fully present, flexibly responsive, and free from blind, automatic response to the endless flow of mentation and conditioned, felt response in every situation that arises. That seems quite sufficient. And I'm not sure i even want to call that a "value", even in the rather subtle ACT way. I just like awareness better than unawareness, overall. Things work out better. So, when I can remember to, I prefer to bring awareness of just the sort that is cultivated in the first part of the ACT book, to situations. Usually. : ) That would include situations in which painful indecision, immobilizing depression, neurotic anxiety, crushing defeat, habitual error, destructive anger, agonizing loss, strong and probably catastrophic impulse, deep unwillingness, and suffocating guilt and remorse arise. And etc. Also when awareness of unawareness arises. I'm not interested in making awareness into a rule, either, not even a light one. Been there done that, too. Mind wants to make internal battles. Maybe most especially it likes to get things all tangled around "values" in the sense that they are being discussed here. When I just stay aware in the present, I'm much less likely to bring pain to myself and others. When I fall asleep at the wheel and fuse with my hypermentation and reflexive desire to avoid pain and seek pleasure rather than be just be awake, open and aware in the accepted situation, the pain becomes suffering, and it escalates into more suffering, for myself and others, too. If I grab onto that insight and make it a value, even a well-deconstructed ACT sort of value, mind wants to get het up about how well I'm doing, and off we go. Naw. So that's enough value and enough work for a lifetime, it seems to me. Just to pay attention. So how does one know what to DO from "just here"? If I'm driving my own bus, it's to here. The path is the goal -- that's the wisdom of the first part of the book,and my own experience has been that what the insight meditation people call skillful means (which has a slightly different feel than the heavier "right action", but amounts to the same thing) arises from that naturally. If right now you are lying in bed at noon and not going to work because you are suffused with anxiety and dread of the world, and you bring your full awareness to that, to the sensations and the thinking and etc., with no resistance or self judgement, if you don't fuse with the mentation etc. but pay full, nonjudgemental and open attention to it, then you are in a better position to respond freely and fully to what is going on. It is, for instance, extremely uncomfortable for people who understand that smoking is poisonous to smoke a cigarette with absolutely full awareness -- the desire to put it down becomes very strong and every inhalation feels disgusting and dangerous. One has to forcibly shut down that awareness in order to finish the thing. Why set up a value called "to take care of my body" when it arises naturally with the willingness to be aware and attentive? Later you may want to throw your body under a moving train to save your daughter. Values as such become rigid, even though I think that Steve does not mean them to, and you really don't want to be standing in that situation, anxiously weighing "compassion" against "health" at that moment. Your authentic value will spontaneously emerge.I would rather say that the value arises with the situation. If you are lost in unawareness, on auto-pilot, in what Tolle calls "pain body", and fighting with someone, or sullenly withdrawing, or refusing something wanted but difficult, or sinking into vortexes of despair, or panicking, or shutting down altogether, whatever,and you suddenly remember to bring your full awareness into whatever the situation is, then you'll find yourself driving your own bus again, even if you are suddenly just sitting there doing nothing at all except paying attention. Or maybe fully noticing and experiencing that you are screaming abuse at your father, or mindfully huddling and trembling in your room, or mindfully on the phone saying that you are too ill to go to work or too frightened to speak in public, or mindfully washing your hundredth doorknob of the day, while you mindfully note the dark and dramatic thoughts and feelings floating by... . all of a sudden they are just floating by, on little leaves if you like, and, um.... I mean, sometimes I really crack myself up, don't you? Once we stop feeding whatever is causing trouble by either fusing with the (escalating) mentation or trying to resist it by pitting "better" thoughts against it, we are in fact moving into the driver's seat. Yes? At that point something like a value that is most suitable for that particular situation might arise, and there is a little space in which to to respond flexibly and mindfully to the what's going on. That, I think, will be more likely to be an authentic value, and more likely to disclose a workable and appropriate behavior, than any that might flow from a previous commitment to "be compassionate", etc. The first impulse when, say, we're experiencing the (ubiquitous and inevitable) pain of a breakup is to get out of the pain. Maybe a pill would do it. Maybe we should call her. Maybe you should do this, maybe you should do that, anything to avoid full, open awareness and even acceptance of the pain. That's how we all are. But if you just apply the techniques so wonderfully and creatively introduced in the first part of the ACT book, maybe you find that rather than being driven to compulsive action to escape the pain, you can just pay attention to it, tenderly allow it, even open to it, defuse from the spiraling narrative about the unbearability of it all, and experience it gently and mindfully, straight-up. And notice that if you don't feed it, it tends to just float by until it's finished floating by. You might find that once you really are willing to do that, maybe a value that you haven't consciously precooked arises all by itself: perhaps willingness to acknowledge and tolerate suffering without being blown all around by it (at work, in relationships, etc); perhaps self-knowledge; perhaps the capacity to gracefully endure things not going according to personal agenda; perhaps the capacity to let go when the time comes to let go; who knows? We relearn old habits as we travel in awareness. Maybe you just want to cry when crying happens. At least you won't be anxiously injecting "how can i be connective and caring and a good steward and productive and still be honest and self-protective?" etc. etc. into a situation that naturally calls up a different value altogether. I guess I like my values to surprise me. I like them to arise fresh and straight up, from each particular situation. I like being able to have completely contradictory values and not take them awfully seriously as entities. I like Zorba. Because Zorba is authentic, his compassion is way out of the box, very spontaneous and free. His values are more like water than they are like rock. They are shifty, depending upon circumstance. You may not, but I like that. : ) PS The value that asserts itself under hurt, , is happiness.You can't quite see it because it's too close and too obvious. You value happiness, and your situation won't give you what you think will make you happy. The genius of ACT is in it's recognition that , paradoxically, we don't get happy trying to get happy. We get happy when loosen our demands and expectations for happiness, and willingly carry our pain into a lived life. Everyone, as the Dalai Lama keeps reiterating, wants to be happy. Personal happiness is EVERYONE'S core value, like it or not. Very tricky. Seems to me that values in the sense that you are using them here just make trouble: their values against my values, my value of honesty conflicting with my value of getting along with my husband's family, and so on. The values have suddenly become rather rigid rules, and now you are stuck with resentment that everyone's values aren't the same as yours.Harmony versus honesty -- well, that's a pretty common, always tricky situation.Hurt that others hold opinions about you that would seem to insult your own self-opinion. (Who wouldn't feel hurt? It's how we are. But how much story do you want to make here? "In the service of what" is getting enmeshed in all of these thoughts about unworthiness, and unworthiness because of feeling unworthy, and so on? And where exactly is "deep down inside?" Once you've thought a thought, there it is, right before your watchful eyes -- "I am unworthy of unhappiness". How about, "thank you very much for that data, mind, I think I will take a walk and see the spring flowers." ? ) Bottom line is, you don't get you way if you keep quiet and honor the value of family harmony, and you don't get your own way if you speak honestly and disrupt things that you also value in the service of "not being a liar".If you buy into the thought that you don't deserve happiness, and it makes you miserable, you have also bought into the thought "I deserve happiness"; otherwise you would not feel be experiencing suffering around the first thought.They are thoughts. "I deserve to be happy". " I don't deserve to be happy." They are just thoughts. Ephemeral thoughts and feelings unless we decide to make a very big deal with them. This happens all of the time for all of us.I wonder if it might not be helpful to drop "values" here, and the story line,and just acknowledge the pain inherent in the situation when it arises, with acceptance in the ACT sense of the word, without feeding it with more problem-making, fused cognitions?If you are paying deep, defused attention you may find that you are responding to the situation as well as you can without all of that mental noise complicating things. Or something surprising may occur to you by way of respose.And the pain might just be regular life pain. There may be no solution that brings you thorough satisfaction.It might be just old little mind making it seem so claustrophobic, dangerous, demanding, complicted and difficult. It might just be Aunt Ida again. "Sigh". That might be enough? Namaste,Becca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 There are, of course, good reasons why society has settled on the types of values you mention. A society basedon sloth, intolerance, etc. probably wouldn’t work very well. Which does leave us a terrible dilemma if we think wewant to rebel against everything civilized society stands for. We don’t have too many good choices for our actionsonce we reject all the good stuff. Can we grow up and be willing to live with the good stuff? Even if somebody else thought of it first?I'm not sure where the idea of rebellion has come from here! I was talking about the likelihood that mindful awareness would make a space for skillful responsive choice to arise without getting all bogged up in what Steve calls "mindy substitutes". That choice may or may not be congruent with "what civilized society stands for". "What civilized society stands for" is highly debatable anyway; so is what is "the good stuff". Sticky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 I’m sorry. The fact that you look for something to disagree with in every post led me to believe that you are rebelling. From: ACT_for_the_Public [mailto:ACT_for_the_Public ] On Behalf Of bekka Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:59 AM To: ACT_for_the_Public Subject: Re: Re: values AGAIN There are, of course, good reasons why society has settled on the types of values you mention. A society based on sloth, intolerance, etc. probably wouldn’t work very well. Which does leave us a terrible dilemma if we think we want to rebel against everything civilized society stands for. We don’t have too many good choices for our actions once we reject all the good stuff. Can we grow up and be willing to live with the good stuff? Even if somebody else thought of it first? I'm not sure where the idea of rebellion has come from here! I was talking about the likelihood that mindful awareness would make a space for skillful responsive choice to arise without getting all bogged up in what Steve calls " mindy substitutes " . That choice may or may not be congruent with " what civilized society stands for " . " What civilized society stands for " is highly debatable anyway; so is what is " the good stuff " . Sticky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Thanks to everyone for the beautiful discussion. Greg > I still think you should try a gerund. Bekka > Attentioning. Awarenessing. Tends to promote compassionating. You Bekka > certainly do like to keep me busy. : ) Toni Packer uses " awaring. " I loved her book " The Wonder of Presence " so much that I've just about gotten over my initial aversion to yet another verbized noun. :-) usable_thought > Per the workbook and other ACT materials, then, the pursuit of usable_thought > " values " is simply a way to formulate more personally effective verbal usable_thought > rules. Thinking of values as rules doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but here is what I come up when thinking about this. I think of rules as something that tells me what to do. Even if I've chosen the rules myself, I still experience them as bossy, imperative, and externalized. I don't think of values this way. I think of them as arising from freedom, rather than restriction. Freely chosen. And chosen again in each moment; I am not even bound by the choices I have made in the past. I think of values as being about what *I* *want* to do, this very moment, not about any restriction or pressure or obligation. The bigger picture values that I have listed and chosen in the past, I really just see as reminders--skillful means to choose my direction in each moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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