Re: possible errors in WPconfiguration of P-dosages

[Guest guest]

we credit Dr. beth Vliet with any "know how" at all: in her (huge hard cover) "Screaming..." book

( I looked up at the bookstore), she pointed out the difference between o r a l and t r a n s d e r m a l dosages (some-where pages 317 and following).

She recommended as a usual transdermal dosage, (according to individual needs), between 20 - 40 mg, (that would be in terms of the MS cream 1-2 lines=25-50mg), which would translate to 100-200mg oral P-dose

I got blood readings of 40 ( to high) while on WIP micronized P capsules,they were the 100mgs size, so I may order the 25mgs. so I can do a quick peak with them....will tell how if anyone wants to know, lol. :-))) ...after all this transdermal P building up in me, I think I'm going to do oral mico. P.It goes in and comes out....does it's job for your blood....never did see any blood work over 7.7 and that was up to 18L's transdermal P....where the *ell did it go??? L

[Guest guest]

Nui writes:

I think I'm going to do oral mico. P.It goes in and comes out....does it's job for your blood....never did see any blood work over 7.7 and that was up to 18L's transdermal P....where the *ell did it go??? L

Dr. Uzzi Reiss and others write about the orals dramatically messing with SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin). He makes a big deal out of it on pps 38-40 in Natural Hormone Balance. Can you read it and tell me what you think?

Lynne

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

If we credit Dr. beth Vliet with any "know how" at all: in her (huge hard cover) "Screaming..." book

( I looked up at the bookstore), she pointed out the difference between o r a l and t r a n s d e r m a l dosages (some-where pages 317 and following).

She recommended as a usual transdermal dosage, (according to individual needs), between 20 - 40 mg, (that would be in terms of the MS cream 1-2 lines=25-50mg), which would translate to 100-200mg oral P-dose she said.

If (only!) 25 mg=l line P transdermal hormone cream translates in fact to 125 mg oral dose, then 14 lines P m a x , in the MS d e r m a l application would mean that WP women are taking (by a max of 14 lines x 125mg = )1750mg in terms of oral dose - (not 350mg, like Susie I think intended) !!!

No wonder many of us were going "berzerk"!

I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

(Please, correct me on my above math if needed).

BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%. Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

Was I phantasizing???

**Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed short-term for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels.

Cheereo,

Charlotte

[Guest guest]

- l application would mean that WP women are taking (by a max of 14

lines x 125mg = )1750mg in terms of oral dose - (not 350mg, like Susie

I think intended) !!!

> No wonder many of us were going " berzerk " !

------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff happens

over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff happen on

less that that).

> I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a major

conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book? I don't

have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number come

from? That sounds reasonable.

> BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

> insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%.

I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally worked with

Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this right

those of you who use Bill???

Lynn

Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies

reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

> Was I phantasizing???

>

> **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed short-term

for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels.

>

> Cheereo,

> Charlotte

[Guest guest]

SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice daily

quote from p 207: " This amount and concentration will completely block

your estrogen reception. "

Carole

> - l application would mean that WP women are taking (by a max of 14

> lines x 125mg = )1750mg in terms of oral dose - (not 350mg, like Susie

> I think intended) !!!

> > No wonder many of us were going " berzerk " !

>

> ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff happens

> over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff happen on

> less that that).

>

> > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

>

> I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a major

> conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book? I don't

> have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number come

> from? That sounds reasonable.

>

>

> > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

> > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%.

>

> I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally worked with

> Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this right

> those of you who use Bill???

>

> Lynn

>

>

> Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies

> reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

> > Was I phantasizing???

> >

> > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed short-term

> for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels.

> >

> > Cheereo,

> > Charlotte

[Guest guest]

Hi Carole,

just a minor correction - not very important: the message you were responding to below, did not originate from Lynn122 Raziatis but from me, Charlotte. I corrected it. Lynn speaks further below. -I've been sweating over those numbers and the huge discrepancy in dosage! Still can't get over it...

Charlotte

-----------

Re: possible errors in WPconfiguration of P-dosages

SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice dailyquote from p 207: "This amount and concentration will completely blockyour estrogen reception." :)Carole > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff happens> over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff happen on> less that that). >

Charlotte had said: > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

Carole responded: > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a major> conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book? I don't> have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number come> from? That sounds reasonable.

Charlotte responds:

Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25 mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100 mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.

So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have understood:

a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and

more only in extraordinary cases

(see below **)!

Charlotte had also said:> > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie> > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%.

Lynn says> > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally worked with> Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this right> those of you who use Bill???>

Charlotte had said:> > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies> reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago. > > Was I phantasizing???> > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed short-term> for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels. > > > > Cheereo,> > Charlotte

[Guest guest]

SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice daily

My question was: Is this a typing error? The book says to take 350 mg

twice daily = 700 mg/day?

I am incorrectly quoted below. I had no part in that conversation.

Carole

> > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff happens

> > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff happen on

> > less that that).

> >

> Charlotte had said:

> > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

>

> Carole responded:

> > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a major

> > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book? I don't

> > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number

come

> > from? That sounds reasonable.

> Charlotte responds:

> Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25

mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on

the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet

still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral

or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and

minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg

transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100

mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l

fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.

> So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have

understood:

> a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas

Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and

> more only in extraordinary cases

> (see below **)!

> Charlotte had also said:>

> > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

> > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%.

>

> Lynn says>

> > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally worked with

> > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this right

> > those of you who use Bill???

> >

> Charlotte had said:>

> > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies

> > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

> > > Was I phantasizing???

> > >

> > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed

short-term

> > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels.

> > >

> > > Cheereo,

> > > Charlotte

[Guest guest]

Charlotte said: " we should have understood: a scant 3 lines o n l y ,

i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas Vliet says 40mg is the usual

strength, and more only in extraordinary cases "

Wylie was very clear here. She was referring to transdermal doses.

She still recommends these high doses as far as I have heard. She

clearly stated that she thought oral prometrium was " bad " - p. 199 and

p.221 - Hormone-like drugs to avoid.

SHE should have understood that it was too much do you mean? Everyone

else was just following her recommended doses.

Carole

> > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff happens

> > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff happen on

> > less that that).

> >

> Charlotte had said:

> > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

>

> Carole responded:

> > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a major

> > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book? I don't

> > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number

come

> > from? That sounds reasonable.

> Charlotte responds:

> Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25

mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on

the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet

still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral

or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and

minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg

transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100

mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l

fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.

> So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have

understood:

> a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas

Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and

> more only in extraordinary cases

> (see below **)!

> Charlotte had also said:>

> > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

> > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%.

>

> Lynn says>

> > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally worked with

> > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this right

> > those of you who use Bill???

> >

> Charlotte had said:>

> > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies

> > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

> > > Was I phantasizing???

> > >

> > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed

short-term

> > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels.

> > >

> > > Cheereo,

> > > Charlotte

[Guest guest]

Hi Carole,

(I don't know how that misquote happened, but to get on with the subject:) I believe what you say about twice 350mg in the SLM book chart (don't have to check), because that's what is on the recomm. WP MS dosage too, - and there wouldn't be anything so wrong about it except that it's now 700mg! but in our transdermal application equivalent I/we (most of us first month) must've taken the strength of

1750mg twice a day = 3500mg ! It's unbelievable, but probably true!

Charlotte

Re: possible errors in WPconfiguration of P-dosages

SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice dailyMy question was: Is this a typing error? The book says to take 350 mgtwice daily = 700 mg/day?I am incorrectly quoted below. I had no part in that conversation.Carole > > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff happens> > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff happen on> > less that that). > >> Charlotte had said: > > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?> > Carole responded: > > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a major> > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book? I don't> > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower numbercome> > from? That sounds reasonable.> Charlotte responds:> Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation onthe WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vlietstill says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oralor dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions andminds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mgtransdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than lfifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.> So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should haveunderstood:> a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereasVliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and> more only in extraordinary cases> (see below **)! > Charlotte had also said:> > > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie> > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by 50%.> > Lynn says> > > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally worked with> > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this right> > those of you who use Bill???> > > Charlotte had said:> > > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies> > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago. > > > Was I phantasizing???> > > > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowedshort-term> > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low P-levels. > > > > > > Cheereo,> > > Charlotteclick here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/Our sister group for research and high volumehttp://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhythmic_Living_Research/**This group has no pharmacy or commercial affiliations. Any mention of product or a pharmacy is within the scope of that group member's experience and does not represent the view of the list owner. Please check directly with pharmacies for details about their product and policies. Not everything you hear on an e-mail list is the truth even if it is a member's best effort to report their experience which may vary from your own. There are many variables that determine how we feel.*****The group conversation is informational in nature and is not intended as medical advice. Anyone wishing to actively use this information or members' opionins for personal health improvement is advised to consult with the qualified health care provider of their choice before attempting to use the information. Membership on this list constitutes agreement that you will not consider any of this medical advice. Discuss your decisions with your doctor.**

[Guest guest]

Wait how did you get this high a number. The syringes are 1 line =25mg

So 14 lines would be 350mg taken twice a day for 700mgs.

I think that a high number when you add up how much goes in day after

day after day for 1/2 month.

I just found on Mercolas site where he says the p can build up and

take a long time ....2 years to get out. No reference to this though.

http://www.mercola.com/article/progesterone/cream.htm

From Mercola:

Getting back to progesterone cream, I have been finding that many of

the women who were on the cream have terribly elevated levels of this

hormone. This is not good. Progesterone is normally a cyclical hormone

and the body really needs to see a change in the concentration to

affect a proper physiological response. If the level is constantly

above the concentration that it recognizes as " off " or low, this is

not possible. Fortunately, this is repairable. But it may involve

going off the cream for as long as two years to wash the progesterone

out of the system.

Lynn

=

> (I don't know how that misquote happened, but to get on with the

subject:) I believe what you say about twice 350mg in the SLM book

chart (don't have to check), because that's what is on the recomm. WP

MS dosage too, - and there wouldn't be anything so wrong about it

except that it's now 700mg! but in our transdermal application

equivalent I/we (most of us first month) must've taken the strength of

> 1750mg twice a day = 3500mg ! It's unbelievable, but probably true!

> Charlotte

> Re: possible errors in WPconfiguration

of P-dosages

>

>

> SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice daily

>

> My question was: Is this a typing error? The book says to take 350 mg

> twice daily = 700 mg/day?

>

> I am incorrectly quoted below. I had no part in that conversation.

>

> Carole

>

>

> > > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff

happens

> > > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff

happen on

> > > less that that).

> > >

> > Charlotte had said:

> > > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

> >

> > Carole responded:

> > > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a

major

> > > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book?

I don't

> > > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number

> come

> > > from? That sounds reasonable.

> > Charlotte responds:

> > Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25

> mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on

> the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet

> still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral

> or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and

> minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg

> transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100

> mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l

> fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.

> > So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have

> understood:

> > a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas

> Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and

> > more only in extraordinary cases

> > (see below **)!

> > Charlotte had also said:>

> > > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

> > > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by

50%.

> >

> > Lynn says>

> > > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally

worked with

> > > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this

right

> > > those of you who use Bill???

> > >

> > Charlotte had said:>

> > > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies

> > > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

> > > > Was I phantasizing???

> > > >

> > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed

> short-term

> > > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low

P-levels.

> > > >

> > > > Cheereo,

> > > > Charlotte

>

>

>

>

> click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

>

> Our sister group for research and high volume

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhythmic_Living_Research/

>

> **This group has no pharmacy or commercial affiliations. Any

mention of product or a pharmacy is within the scope of that group

member's experience and does not represent the view of the list owner.

Please check directly with pharmacies for details about their product

and policies. Not everything you hear on an e-mail list is the truth

even if it is a member's best effort to report their experience which

may vary from your own. There are many variables that determine how we

feel.***

>

> **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

intended as medical advice. Anyone wishing to actively use this

information or members' opionins for personal health improvement is

advised to consult with the qualified health care provider of their

choice before attempting to use the information. Membership on this

list constitutes agreement that you will not consider any of this

medical advice. Discuss your decisions with your doctor.**

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

I knew I had read somewhere that it took 2 years for the P to leave. If this is true, then I did this after my hyst. No hormones for 2 years. That could explain why, when I first went on the WP, I was able to tolerate the P okay for a couple of months. Then it went downhill from there. But I kept putting it on, because of the fear of cancer again. I know now, I'm very sensitive to P even if it doesn't show up in the blood. I had the same experience 7 years ago before hyst. What really sucks is that the doctors label the anxiety and depression as a mental health and it's NOT! It was hormone induced.

Liz V

(No longer on WP)

From: rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Lynn RazaitisSent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:24 PMTo: rhythmicliving Subject: Re: possible errors in WPconfiguration of P-dosages

Wait how did you get this high a number. The syringes are 1 line =25mgSo 14 lines would be 350mg taken twice a day for 700mgs.I think that a high number when you add up how much goes in day afterday after day for 1/2 month.I just found on Mercolas site where he says the p can build up andtake a long time ....2 years to get out. No reference to this though.http://www.mercola.com/article/progesterone/cream.htm>From Mercola:Getting back to progesterone cream, I have been finding that many ofthe women who were on the cream have terribly elevated levels of thishormone. This is not good. Progesterone is normally a cyclical hormoneand the body really needs to see a change in the concentration toaffect a proper physiological response. If the level is constantlyabove the concentration that it recognizes as "off" or low, this isnot possible. Fortunately, this is repairable. But it may involvegoing off the cream for as long as two years to wash the progesteroneout of the system.Lynn=> (I don't know how that misquote happened, but to get on with thesubject:) I believe what you say about twice 350mg in the SLM bookchart (don't have to check), because that's what is on the recomm. WPMS dosage too, - and there wouldn't be anything so wrong about itexcept that it's now 700mg! but in our transdermal applicationequivalent I/we (most of us first month) must've taken the strength of > 1750mg twice a day = 3500mg ! It's unbelievable, but probably true!> Charlotte > Re: possible errors in WPconfigurationof P-dosages> > > SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice daily> > My question was: Is this a typing error? The book says to take 350 mg> twice daily = 700 mg/day?> > I am incorrectly quoted below. I had no part in that conversation.> > Carole> > > > > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuffhappens> > > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuffhappen on> > > less that that). > > >> > Charlotte had said: > > > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?> > > > Carole responded: > > > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at amajor> > > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book?I don't> > > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number> come> > > from? That sounds reasonable.> > Charlotte responds:> > Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25> mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on> the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet> still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral> or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and> minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg> transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100> mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l> fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.> > So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have> understood:> > a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas> Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and> > more only in extraordinary cases> > (see below **)! > > Charlotte had also said:> > > > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie> > > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by50%.> > > > Lynn says> > > > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginallyworked with> > > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is thisright> > > those of you who use Bill???> > > > > Charlotte had said:> > > > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies> > > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago. > > > > Was I phantasizing???> > > > > > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed> short-term> > > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily lowP-levels. > > > > > > > > Cheereo,> > > > Charlotte> > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > Our sister group for research and high volume> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhythmic_Living_Research/> > **This group has no pharmacy or commercial affiliations. Anymention of product or a pharmacy is within the scope of that groupmember's experience and does not represent the view of the list owner.Please check directly with pharmacies for details about their productand policies. Not everything you hear on an e-mail list is the trutheven if it is a member's best effort to report their experience whichmay vary from your own. There are many variables that determine how wefeel.***> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is notintended as medical advice. Anyone wishing to actively use thisinformation or members' opionins for personal health improvement isadvised to consult with the qualified health care provider of theirchoice before attempting to use the information. Membership on thislist constitutes agreement that you will not consider any of thismedical advice. Discuss your decisions with your doctor.** > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn,

That high a number comes only from the realization that apart from 350 mg o r a l application twice a day 700mg being extremely high which would never be okay with Vliet and Reiss Schwarzbein - when you do transdermal, it is sooo much (about 5 times) stronger than the oral application, so you would have to divide the Oral mg # by 5.

When you reread the messages I posted today at 5.20, 6.40 and 7.09 pm and think it through and follow the math starting with "20mg transdermal equals 100mg oral", you will understand. In short, Susie's dosage did not take into account that we were using a concentration 5 times as strong, so we should have used 5 times less with the transdermal stuff.The highest we should have used would have been 2 -3 lines of the transdermal, = 50-75mg (Vliet's usual dosage, doubled). At the rate of 25mg = 1 line transdermal, worth 125mg oral dose, we used max

14 x 125mg (oral portion value) = 1750mg oral value, and that twice/day. Hope that helps.

It's like mixing apples with oranges.

Charlotte

Re: possible errors in WPconfigurationof P-dosages> > > SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice daily> > My question was: Is this a typing error? The book says to take 350 mg> twice daily = 700 mg/day?> > I am incorrectly quoted below. I had no part in that conversation.> > Carole> > > > > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuffhappens> > > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuffhappen on> > > less that that). > > >> > Charlotte had said: > > > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?> > > > Carole responded: > > > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at amajor> > > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book?I don't> > > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number> come> > > from? That sounds reasonable.> > Charlotte responds:> > Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25> mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on> the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet> still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral> or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and> minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg> transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100> mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l> fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.> > So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have> understood:> > a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas> Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and> > more only in extraordinary cases> > (see below **)! > > Charlotte had also said:> > > > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie> > > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by50%.> > > > Lynn says> > > > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginallyworked with> > > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is thisright> > > those of you who use Bill???> > > > > Charlotte had said:> > > > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies> > > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago. > > > > Was I phantasizing???> > > > > > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed> short-term> > > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily lowP-levels. > > > > > > > > Cheereo,> > > > Charlotte> > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > Our sister group for research and high volume> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhythmic_Living_Research/> > **This group has no pharmacy or commercial affiliations. Anymention of product or a pharmacy is within the scope of that groupmember's experience and does not represent the view of the list owner.Please check directly with pharmacies for details about their productand policies. Not everything you hear on an e-mail list is the trutheven if it is a member's best effort to report their experience whichmay vary from your own. There are many variables that determine how wefeel.***> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is notintended as medical advice. Anyone wishing to actively use thisinformation or members' opionins for personal health improvement isadvised to consult with the qualified health care provider of theirchoice before attempting to use the information. Membership on thislist constitutes agreement that you will not consider any of thismedical advice. Discuss your decisions with your doctor.** > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

[Guest guest]

Yes, there is a difference between oral

and transdermal dosing. The dosing on the WP was done intentionally. Yes, it

is a stunningly high dose. The pharmacist who was involved in developing it

did say “it was devised for cancer patients”.

Laurel

From:

rhythmicliving [mailto:rhythmicliving ] On Behalf Of Mcharlot

Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:15 PM

To: rhythmicliving

Subject: Re: Re:

possible errors in WPconfiguration of P-dosages

Hi Lynn,

That high a number comes only from the realization that

apart from 350 mg o r a l application twice a day

700mg being extremely high which would never be okay

with Vliet and Reiss Schwarzbein - when you do transdermal, it is sooo much (about 5

times) stronger than the oral application, so you would have

to divide the Oral mg # by 5.

When you reread the messages I posted today at 5.20, 6.40

and 7.09 pm and think it through and follow the math starting with " 20mg

transdermal equals 100mg oral " , you will understand. In short, Susie's

dosage did not take into account that we were using a concentration 5

times as strong, so we should have used 5 times less with the transdermal

stuff.The highest we should have used would have been 2 -3 lines of the

transdermal, = 50-75mg (Vliet's usual dosage, doubled). At the rate

of 25mg = 1 line transdermal, worth 125mg oral dose, we used max

14 x 125mg (oral portion value) = 1750mg oral

value, and that twice/day. Hope that helps.

It's like mixing apples with oranges.

Charlotte

[Guest guest]

I can vouch for the 2 year thing. I was on Norplant and then depo-provera and it took me almost 3 years to get that crap out of my system and I still wonder what damage it did. That's why I'm trying to "fix" the problem now. Wish I knew then what I know now but.....what do they say? Live & learn? :-))

Lori, 36

Still cycling

PCOS/IR/Hypo-thyroid

on a modified version of WP

Re: possible errors in WPconfigurationof P-dosages> > > SLM book p 219 chart says 350 mg (14 lines) twice daily> > My question was: Is this a typing error? The book says to take 350 mg> twice daily = 700 mg/day?> > I am incorrectly quoted below. I had no part in that conversation.> > Carole> > > > > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuffhappens> > > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuffhappen on> > > less that that). > > >> > Charlotte had said: > > > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?> > > > Carole responded: > > > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at amajor> > > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book?I don't> > > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this lower number> come> > > from? That sounds reasonable.> > Charlotte responds:> > Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines by 25> mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone recommendation on> the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable, although Vliet> still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether in oral> or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then emotions and> minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that 20mg> transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same effect as 100> mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l> fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or numbers.> > So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have> understood:> > a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas> Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and> > more only in extraordinary cases> > (see below **)! > > Charlotte had also said:> > > > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie> > > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by50%.> > > > Lynn says> > > > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginallyworked with> > > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is thisright> > > those of you who use Bill???> > > > > Charlotte had said:> > > > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you ladies> > > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago. > > > > Was I phantasizing???> > > > > > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed> short-term> > > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily lowP-levels. > > > > > > > > Cheereo,> > > > Charlotte> > > > > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/> > Our sister group for research and high volume> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhythmic_Living_Research/> > **This group has no pharmacy or commercial affiliations. Anymention of product or a pharmacy is within the scope of that groupmember's experience and does not represent the view of the list owner.Please check directly with pharmacies for details about their productand policies. Not everything you hear on an e-mail list is the trutheven if it is a member's best effort to report their experience whichmay vary from your own. There are many variables that determine how wefeel.***> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is notintended as medical advice. Anyone wishing to actively use thisinformation or members' opionins for personal health improvement isadvised to consult with the qualified health care provider of theirchoice before attempting to use the information. Membership on thislist constitutes agreement that you will not consider any of thismedical advice. Discuss your decisions with your doctor.** > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Uzzi Reiss and others write about the orals dramatically messing with SHBG (sex hormone-binding globulin). He makes a big deal out of it on pps 38-40 in Natural Hormone Balance. Can you read it and tell me what you think?Lynne

Lynne, I have read, & reread Uzzi, love that guy. I'm so confused at this point I could freek, BUT...some things don't add up to me weeee little brain:-)))) Now the oral P everyone keeps refferring to is Prometrium, it comes in 100 & 200 mgs. I also did a capsule from WIP that was a micronized P in an oral form, 100mgs as well. Here's where my brain freeks out so you can help, OK?? Now with both Prometrium and WIP I got blood readings of 40-45...we know that's way to high, so nowonder it screws with the SHBG.....what I want to try is a lower dose 25mg oral micronized P, WIP makes them as do other pharmacists in Vliets book. I've spoken with that makes a time release P so it dissolves in the gut and enters the bloodstream without binding to fat or tissue or organs.....the P in transdermal form has me worried...what are the effects of the residue we don't get into our bloodstream???? I know it has a strong effect on me, it never does show up in my blood, where is it??? Please help me understand why the lower dose oral would be bad. Maybe I just need to use micro doses of P transdermal, up to 25 mgs. but how much is actually getting into my bloodstream??? Any and all thoughts welcomed:-))))

[Guest guest]

writes:

Please help me understand why the lower dose oral would be bad. Maybe I just need to use micro doses of P transdermal, up to 25 mgs. but how much is actually getting into my bloodstream???

I'm not saying that the lower dose would be bad. I just thought Uzzi Reiss' concerns about oral hormones screwing up SHBG were worth considering since he makes such a big deal about it in his book.

If you do use transdermal, we are at a loss so far as how to measure it because so because much progesterone appears to be (1) stored in the tissue and therefore not available to be measured in the bloodstream or (2) is not capable of being measured by blood tests ever.

We are going to have to revisit saliva testing as a possibility, at least for progesterone.

Lynne

Not on WP

[Guest guest]

I can vouch for the 2 year thing. I was on Norplant and then depo-provera and it took me almost 3 years to get that crap out of my system and I still wonder what damage it did. That's why I'm trying to "fix" the problem now. Wish I knew then what I know now but.....what do they say? Live & learn? :-))

Lori

So Lori, are you using a transdermal P right now???? any P??? Still sorting this out:-)))

[Guest guest]

I got you now. Holy cow....Susie's got an awful lot of loose endsgoing. Someone said this is more like a cancer protocol and I agree. Even 700mg taken day after day is a lot 1750 is unbelievable.ThanksLynn

You think that's bad !!! She had women doubling their P, Oh My >>>. It's amazing what we do when we TRUST someone!!!! Good we are all opening our eyes and asking questions, love you guys...:-))))

[Guest guest]

If you do use transdermal, we are at a loss so far as how to measure it because so because much progesterone appears to be (1) stored in the tissue and therefore not available to be measured in the bloodstream or (2) is not capable of being measured by blood tests ever

So Lynne, how do you feel about the P being stored here there and everywhere??? I'm on a P break, so I'm pondering what to do next. I don't know any pharmacists that would rub it on their wives or their daughters.....they want it in the blood. So I keep going back to the smaller timr released oral dose, maybe won't shock my system??? Still on the fence, lol.....

[Guest guest]

writes:

So Lynne, how do you feel about the P being stored here there and everywhere??? I'm on a P break, so I'm pondering what to do next. I don't know any pharmacists that would rub it on their wives or their daughters.....they want it in the blood. So I keep going back to the smaller timr released oral dose, maybe won't shock my system??? Still on the fence, lol.....

I'm with you. I'd rather take something with a short lifespan, a hormone you can control and get out of your body quickly if you need to. I don't like the idea of storing hormones in the tissues the way the progesterone has behaved. But I don't think we know whether it's a property of progesterone to store itself or it's the property of the transdermals.

We need info on this. Please, everybody, ask your pharmacists and practictioners about this. Is there any form of progesterone that doesn't build up?

Lynne

also on a P break

[Guest guest]

Here's his web site for anyone interested. He has a few articles onit.http://www.efn.org/~raypeat/horm.htmlHe makes a progesterone supplement called Progest-E that puts the p invit E. You rub it in your gums.Wish I knew more to say.....Lynn

I guess we can rub the OO P in our gums too, lol...

[Guest guest]

I got you now. Holy cow....Susie's got an awful lot of loose ends

going. Someone said this is more like a cancer protocol and I agree.

Even 700mg taken day after day is a lot 1750 is unbelievable.

Thanks

Lynn

> > > > ------> No kidding... the warning for depo-provera say stuff

> happens

> > > > over 500mg. (but many of the depo women posting had stuff

> happen on

> > > > less that that).

> > > >

> > > Charlotte had said:

> > > > > I really wonder if Susie is/was aware of that ?

> > >

> > > Carole responded:

> > > > I would hope she knows her math. She's about to present at a

> major

> > > > conference! Is 350mg the amount she recommends in her book?

> I don't

> > > > have my copy here now so can't look. Where did this

lower number

> > come

> > > > from? That sounds reasonable.

> > > Charlotte responds:

> > > Yes, you get that lower dosage when you multiply 14 lines

by 25

> > mg/line P = 350 mg; that's Susie's max Progesterone

recommendation on

> > the WP. And in o r a l dosage that sounds reasonable,

although Vliet

> > still says - see below**. Susie must've thought mg=mg whether

in oral

> > or dermal terms. That's how, first in our bodies, then

emotions and

> > minds, the confusion happened. But now we know from Vliet that

20mg

> > transdermal - less than 1 line of P cream - has the same

effect as 100

> > mg oral. So when you use transdermal, you have to use less than l

> > fifth (ratio 20:100, or 1:5) of the oral recommended lines or

numbers.

> > > So when the WP told us to take 14 lines max, we should have

> > understood:

> > > a scant 3 lines o n l y , i.e.75mg transdermal(max), whereas

> > Vliet says 40mg is the usual strength, and

> > > more only in extraordinary cases

> > > (see below **)!

> > > Charlotte had also said:>

> > > > > BTW as Dr. Mathis related to me Saturday: Susie

> > > > > insists she never said she would reduce her WP P-dosage by

> 50%.

> > >

> > > Lynn says>

> > > > I've heard someone who uses Bill hormones (who orginally

> worked with

> > > > Susie) say that he only recommends half the P dose. Is this

> right

> > > > those of you who use Bill???

> > > >

> > > Charlotte had said:>

> > > > Oh well, that's just what I had understood one of you

ladies

> > > > reporting, (I don't know anymore who), a short while ago.

> > > > > Was I phantasizing???

> > > > >

> > > > > **Vliet also said 300mg o r a l P would only be allowed

> > short-term

> > > > for women who have a proven record of extraordinarily low

> P-levels.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cheereo,

> > > > > Charlotte

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > click here for our webpage http://rhythmicliving.com/

> >

> > Our sister group for research and high volume

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhythmic_Living_Research/

> >

> > **This group has no pharmacy or commercial affiliations. Any

> mention of product or a pharmacy is within the scope of that group

> member's experience and does not represent the view of the list owner.

> Please check directly with pharmacies for details about their product

> and policies. Not everything you hear on an e-mail list is the truth

> even if it is a member's best effort to report their experience which

> may vary from your own. There are many variables that determine how we

> feel.***

> >

> > **The group conversation is informational in nature and is not

> intended as medical advice. Anyone wishing to actively use this

> information or members' opionins for personal health improvement is

> advised to consult with the qualified health care provider of their

> choice before attempting to use the information. Membership on this

> list constitutes agreement that you will not consider any of this

> medical advice. Discuss your decisions with your doctor.**

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

[Guest guest]

We need info on this. Please, everybody, ask your pharmacists and practictioners about this. Is there any form of progesterone that doesn't build up?Lynnealso on a P break

I have calls out to a few more pharmacists regarding the forms of P that will not store in the body, and if they have any idea about the SHBG response to certain doses of the oral P as well. .

[Guest guest]

Well now I'm revisting Ray Peat. He says the best way is to rub it on

your gums. Get it straight into the blood. He HATES estrogen but loves

progesterone in his research. Peat is supposed to be the source of Dr.

Lee's orginal research. Lee heard him speak at a conference.

I sent Carole all the Peat stuff I had last week. Maybe she can pull

something useful out of it.

Here's his web site for anyone interested. He has a few articles on

it.http://www.efn.org/~raypeat/horm.html

He makes a progesterone supplement called Progest-E that puts the p in

vit E. You rub it in your gums.

Wish I knew more to say.....

Lynn

>

> In a message dated 5/10/2005 6:52:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> lynnelalala@a... writes:

>

>

> If you do use transdermal, we are at a loss so far as how to

measure it

> because so because much progesterone appears to be (1) stored in

the tissue and

> therefore not available

>

> to be measured in the bloodstream or (2) is not capable of being

measured by

> blood tests ever

>

> So Lynne, how do you feel about the P being stored here there and

> everywhere??? I'm on a P break, so I'm pondering what to do next. I

don't know any

> pharmacists that would rub it on their wives or their

daughters.....they want it

> in the blood. So I keep going back to the smaller timr released

oral dose,

> maybe won't shock my system??? Still on the fence, lol.....

[Guest guest]

Exactly what I'm thinking!

I have no idea how much but the instructions that come with my WIP oo

hormones discuss using them orally so someone does this.

Lynn

> vit E. You rub it in your gums.

>

> Wish I knew more to say.....

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

>

> I guess we can rub the OO P in our gums too, lol...