Re: Face blind -

[Guest guest]

I have taken the faceblind test online.

I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to do

with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and

I do not recognise them outside that context.

This becomes a realproblemin a crowd

if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked

right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They

do not accept that I did not see them.

Greg

dx AS at 53

Daneka Wheeler

Sent by: aspires-relationships

08/05/2008 03:54 PM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

Aspires Aspires <aspires-relationships >

cc

Subject

Face blind -

Hi ,

You mentioned that you were face blind. Would you mind describing

what exactly that means? I've heard descriptions before, but they

always sort of assumed that it was a self-evident term.

Are there varying degrees? For instance, can you read a face in one

setting, but not recognize it in another. Does it happen to people

you've known for a long time?

Also, is that different from not being able to read facial expressions

and other nonverbal signals? My husband is able to read obvious expressions

but misses the more subtle ones.

I hope you don't mind all the questions.

thanks,

Daneka

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!

Mobile. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

I do fine with faces much of the time, but part of the time things

just don’t work right. It depends upon the face. There are some people’s

faces that I consistently mix up with each other, and there are others that I

consistently fail to recognize, as if they are lacking some feature that I need.

Perhaps it is something like color blindness: certain facial features don’t

register but others do.

Of course this can be very embarrassing. I often feel reluctant

to talk to people because I am not sure if I know them or not. I tend to wait

until they recognize me. This can make it hard to meet new people!

From:

aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Greg Greer

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:08 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: Face blind -

I have taken

the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face

recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect to see

only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context.

This becomes a

realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I

have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment.

They do not accept that I did not see them.

Greg

dx AS at 53

[Guest guest]

Daneka Wheeler wrote:

> and Greg,

> Thanks. Do you think it has to do with the face or facial features

registering

> initially or with remembering the features? I ask because it seems to have

some

> element of memory, though I remember the topic of memory coming up before on

> this list and the AS members felt that compared to most, their memory was

> remarkably good. Also, I think of people with Aspergers as visual thinkers,

> quick to pick out patterns, etc. So, to me it seems incongruous that those

same

> abilities would go hand-in-hand with face blindness.

Seems to vary yet some of this is just people describing the same elephant.

Our memory is good in some ways and bad in others.

It seems that emotional memory is normal but there is a twist, assuming

the emotion is there and it often isn't.

With face blind, remove the hair, the clothes, the context, then you

will find out. A lot of people use clues like that.

Mistaking people is easy but everyone does it sometimes.

More awkward, a cause of embarrassment, mostly in others, is being told

you know this person, met them before and looking blankly. Vaguely

familar but the supposed meeting is a mystery.

[Guest guest]

Princess wrote: robert di niro said it well in taxi driver: he looked in the mirror and said...to himself..." you talkin to me"? he didnt recognise himself. he didnt see he was allready nuts. i think he was playing a character with some problems. AS never recognises anyone, anywhere. doesnt let it worry me. Recent Activity 1 New MembersVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo! Group to share and learn. Yahoo! Health Early Detection Know the symptoms of breast cancer. Yahoo! Groups Latest product news Join Mod. Central stay connected. .

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[Guest guest]

Hi Daneka, I don't mind at all, and will give this a try. Please let me knw if I leave anything out. Recognition of facial emotion is quite different from recognition of who the person is. I can meet someone, be introducted, remember his or her name, know and remember and appreciate the person and many facts about this person, but see him or her out of context, take my friend/ acquaintence for a perfect stranger, and completely blank him or her. It can be offensive to others, who assume that I recognize them (indeed, it would not even occur to them to think otherwise- they recognize me from sight alone, and have never familiarized themselves with any other alternative), but I do not speak. They wonder what they have done to offend me, since I did not ever seem like a rude person to them. Sometimes, they just take me for absent-minded. There is a

whole incorrect theory of mind that they develop to explain my behavior, if they aren't just plain offended. I have lost friends this way as a child, and been called "stuck-up" through Junior High School (never being able to fathom why). If I were to carry a medical card, I would consider listing prosopagnosia (the technical term) on it, along with AS (if I even listed AS at all!). In context, I can fake things quite well. I can play "different/ the same" with facial features of members of the group I am in, and tell one person from another. Indeed, about 200 people attend my church, and there must be maybe 50 that I recognize easily. If I were to see most of them on the other side of town at a secular event, I would not know them, unless several of them were together. I can do better when i see two people together, because if one "goes with" the other somehow, then each is a clue for the

other. I cannot recognize a few of my neighbors, but one set is often out walking their dogs, and I can recognize them from the dogs and their (similar) hairstyles. As a teacher, I play this game quickly with my students. Small classes do not give me much trouble. Of course, teaching online is easiest! Often, I memorize specific facial features, line an upturned nose, or an acquiline nose, or a straight nose (like mine)- like the number of lines coming off the eyes pointint inward or outward, and whether the center line points up or down. I look at eyebrows or hairstyles. I try not to take hair into account if it is someone that I want to know for a long period of time, since hair can change. Somethine that helps me imprint someone I really need (for me- do not knw if anyone else woudl be helped by this) are three

pictures of the person's face, in three different emotional states: I let my eyes rest on each state for a couple of seconds and go to the next in tern, and cycle around between the three for a few minutres. Eventually, something in my brain, without thnking cognitively about it, points up differences between one post and another- and it feels really pleasurable to me- that is how I feel it imprinting into the place in my head that stores a facial image so that I can retrieve it (I believe it is the fusiform face area, or FFA- but some have written scinguliod cortex, so maybe both are involved? I just know I like it, it feels good, and it works with lots of drill!), and the person stays! Then, when I see him or her across town, I feel a sense of familliarity. I prayed for wisdom before learning the technique above. At the time, I recognized nobody that well (there were no faces imprinted). that was

less than two years ago. Now, there are maybe 15 people stuck in my head. Each is a victory. A similar method kind of works for learning facial emotion- but there, one can just replay the software over and over- Simon Baron- Cohen has software that makes faces wiggle, as they express various emotions, and for me, it works really well. Verbal descriptions do also- and I write things down to describe how one emotion looks different from another. Thus, in surprise, the eyebrows go up, while in anger they go across, and in worry they go down. All three are intense. In trust, the face nods acceptance in a relaxed way, and in respect, the face nods acceptance in a measured, controlled way, planned, with more tension in it (not anxious- but not completely relaxed either). A smile with the lips that has the eyes wide and no smile beneath the eyes is not completely a real smile- then, theory of

mind is needed to determine why it might be fake, since there are numerous reasons that would fit. I am learning slowly, but I am able to learn this. When I can read facial emotion, I may no longer test as AS- not too sure- but I have the same brain. I think the fact that I began learning this as an adult should count for something, anyway. I will still have perseverative strength when needed, etc. However, I would love not to be faceblind any longer- and to learn faces as quickly as others- in less than 2 seconds. I wonder of practice with learning emotions will help me with faces. I guess i will find out. Anyone have experience with this? Daneka Wheeler wrote: Hi ,You mentioned that you were face blind. Would you mind describing what exactly that means? I've heard descriptions before, but they always sort of assumed that it was a self-evident term.Are there varying degrees? For instance, can you read a face in one setting, but not recognize it in another. Does it happen to people you've known for a long time?Also, is that different from not being able to read facial expressions and other nonverbal signals? My husband is able to read obvious expressions but misses the more subtle ones. I hope you don't mind all the

questions.thanks,Daneka Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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[Guest guest]

, LOL! There is actually a reference to faceblindness in the Bible (in all seriousness), in 1:23, which apears to assume that the average reader is face-sighted, but has hears of someone who is not. I have never taken it as an indication of being crazy, and I do not believe that my father has either. AS FBdavid bailey wrote: robert di niro said it well in taxi driver: he looked in the mirror and said...to himself..." you talkin to me"? he didnt recognise himself. he didnt see he was allready nuts. i think he was playing a character with some problems. AS never recognises anyone, anywhere. doesnt let it worry me. Recent Activity 1 New MembersVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo! Group to share and learn. Yahoo! Health Early Detection Know the symptoms of breast cancer. Yahoo! Groups Latest product news Join Mod. Central stay connected. . Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email.

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Hay Greg, I accept it! I have done that without having a crowd for an excuse. As a child, I got in trouble plenty, and could not tell the truth and have it believed. I hated to lie, too. Being faceblind and AS was a monster back then! Hay, there's a few FB support groups- see my other post- come say hello to others! There are no faces online! Greg Greer wrote: I have

taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them. Greg dx AS at 53 Daneka Wheeler <danekaw> Sent by: aspires-relationships 08/05/2008 03:54 PM Please respond toaspires-relationships To Aspires Aspires <aspires-relationships > cc Subject Face blind - Hi ,You mentioned that you were face blind. Would you mind describing what exactly that means? I've heard descriptions before, but they always sort of assumed that it was a self-evident term.Are there varying degrees? For instance, can you read a face in one setting, but not recognize it in another. Does it happen to people you've known for a long time?Also, is that different from not being able to read facial expressions and other nonverbal signals? My husband is able to read obvious expressions but misses the more subtle ones. I hope you don't mind all the questions.thanks,Daneka Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.

Try it now.

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[Guest guest]

Sandy,

Actresses and actors can also be hard to recognize. Possibly even

harder because it is 2-D. Apart from that, though, I don’t find

celebrities that much easier or harder to recognize than other people, but then

I don’t become attached to them. Maybe if I did then it would be easier

to recognize them. I remember characters and stories that I enjoyed, and I can

be very moved by them, but I often don’t remember the names or faces.

Choosing “favorites” (people or stories) is also hard, although I

am doing better with that now.

There is some truth in the jokes about “all <fill in

the blank> people look alike,” I suppose. I don’t know if that

would be a similar experience or not.

From:

aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of

Dahlberg

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:44 AM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: Face blind -

Can you recognize actresses and actors on TV? Is it

easier in a 2 dimensional rather than 3 dimensional framework? After you

know a person for years do you still have trouble?

I have lots of white and black and different color friends,

but I know people who are white who can't recognize different black

people. I always found that interesting.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

,

There was more to this story than I realized. I have known this

woman, an artist, for some time, but not very well. She and her husband own a

large vacation house that they rent out, and I “met†her first from seeing how

she decorated that house. But I did not know that she was 80 years old (she

looked younger than her husband, who is 69). And I did not know that something

had happened to her health since the last time I saw her, a month ago. After I

saw her today (and posted my earlier message) I was told that something

happened this last month that caused her to “age 10 years.†So that must be why

I was so confused this time.

If she had talked or behaved differently then I think I would have

noticed that, but because only her face changed, I couldn’t recognize her and

couldn’t understand why. When someone has a face that “doesn’t stick,†like hers,

I can’t bring up a past visual memory of it even though I am a very visual

thinker.

I met someone new at that same gathering today, and I am hoping

that I will be able to recognize her if I see her again on Sunday. She wore a

name tag, which leaves me with a visual memory of her name as well as face, which

is very helpful, and she also has a face that I should be able to remember.

From:

aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Princess

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:18 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: RE: Face blind -

,

That's fairly routine for me. I definitely think you

might be! For more information, check out www.faceblind.org It's ken

Nakayama's website. there is the " famous Faces Test " , and the

" Old- New Face Test " . We use context and hair as major helps--

for me, voice recognition is a major clue, too- and I remember names well.

There is also a [faceblind] group that is a Yahoo Group (I am in it), and

there is a really good FB group that is for FB people only -- if interested,

contact Glenn Alperin at blankface@...

AS

0 (a face blind smile).

[Guest guest]

Do you have any trouble recognizing voices?

Sandy

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind -

I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them.

Greg

dx AS at 53

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

The pattern consists of the face ina context. If I see someone in a business suit all the time thenI may fail to recognise them if I walked part them and they were dressedin T shirt and shorts with thongs (feet).I can remember faces better if theyhave something that is very distinghuising like a very large nose or alarge mole above one eye. I have walked right past my wife andtwo daughters in a supermarket and they thought I was ignoring them. Idid not see them yet they were 6 feet away. Maybe I am not payingattention. Gregdx AS at 53 Daneka Wheeler Sent by: aspires-relationships 09/05/2008 04:27 AMPlease respond toaspires-relationships Toaspires-relationships ccSubjectRE: Face blind- and Greg,Thanks. Do you think it has to do with the face or facial featuresregistering initially or with remembering the features? I ask becauseit seems to have some element of memory, though I remember the topic ofmemory coming up before on this list and the AS members felt that comparedto most, their memory was remarkably good. Also, I think of peoplewith Aspergers as visual thinkers, quick to pick out patterns, etc. So,to me it seems incongruous that those same abilities would go hand-in-handwith face blindness. DanekaSubject: RE: Face blind - To: aspires-relationships Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 4:18 PMI do fine with faces much of the time, butpart of the time things just don’t work right. It depends upon the face.There are some people’s faces that I consistently mix up with each other,and there are others that I consistently fail to recognize, as if theyare lacking some feature that I need. Perhaps it is something like colorblindness: certain facial features don’t register but others do. Of course this can be very embarrassing.I often feel reluctant to talk to people because I am not sure if I knowthem or not. I tend to wait until they recognize me. This can make it hardto meet new people! From: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com [mailto:aspires-relationships@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Greg GreerSent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:08 PMTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSubject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind - I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below parin face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet andexpect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outsidethat context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone andcannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking forthem to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them.Greg dx AS at 53 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!Mobile. Tryit now.

[Guest guest]

, A name tag would do it for me, as long as she wore it when I saw her again! I am glad that her face was one that appeared distinctive to you. What makes them more distinctive to you? wrote: , There was more to this story

than I realized. I have known this woman, an artist, for some time, but not very well. She and her husband own a large vacation house that they rent out, and I “met†her first from seeing how she decorated that house. But I did not know that she was 80 years old (she looked younger than her husband, who is 69). And I did not know that something had happened to her health since the last time I saw her, a month ago. After I saw her today (and posted my earlier message) I was told that something happened this last month that caused her to “age 10 years.†So that must be why I was so confused this time. If she had talked or behaved differently then I think I would have noticed that, but because only her face changed, I couldn’t recognize her and couldn’t understand why. When someone has a face that “doesn’t stick,†like hers, I can’t bring up a past visual memory

of it even though I am a very visual thinker. I met someone new at that same gathering today, and I am hoping that I will be able to recognize her if I see her again on Sunday. She wore a name tag, which leaves me with a visual memory of her name as well as face, which is very helpful, and she also has a face that I should be able to remember. From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Princess Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008

3:18 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: RE: Face blind - , That's fairly routine for me. I definitely think you might be! For more information, check out www.faceblind.org It's ken Nakayama's website. there is the "famous Faces Test", and the "Old- New Face Test". We use context and hair as major helps-- for me, voice recognition is a major clue, too- and I remember names well. There is also a [faceblind] group that is a Yahoo Group (I am in it), and there is a really good FB group that is for FB people only -- if interested, contact Glenn

Alperin at blankfaceearthlink (DOT) net AS 0 (a face blind smile).

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Sandy, Not usually- perfect pitch helps, but I also recognize accents really well. I have spoken to people on the phone after months, without caller ID, and known who they were. How about you? Dahlberg wrote: Do you have any trouble recognizing voices? Sandy Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind - I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them. Greg dx AS at 53

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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[Guest guest]

Greg, I resemble these remarks! I like it when people have unusual characteristics, such as a chin that juts out a bit, or something a bit asymetric, or a mole. The Gorbachev Effect works great, too! I have certainly walked past people I knoew well without speaking: at this point, if there is no reason not to, I just disclose being faceblind whenever i meet a new person whom I believe that i will likely meet again out of context. There was an article in People Magazine this last December that described it pretty well, and I know the mother of the family it profiled from another online group I am in. Greg Greer wrote: The pattern consists of the face in a context. If I see someone in a business suit all the time then I may fail to recognise them if I walked part them and they were dressed in T shirt and shorts with thongs (feet). I can remember faces better if they have something that is very distinghuising like a very large nose or a large mole above one eye. I have walked right past my wife and two daughters in a supermarket and they thought I was ignoring them. I did not see them yet they were 6 feet away. Maybe I am not

paying attention. Greg dx AS at 53 Daneka Wheeler <danekaw> Sent by: aspires-relationships 09/05/2008 04:27 AM Please respond toaspires-relationships To aspires-relationships cc Subject RE: Face blind - and Greg,Thanks. Do you think it has to do with the face or facial features registering initially or with remembering the features? I ask because it seems to have some element of memory, though I remember the topic of memory coming up before on this list and the AS members felt that compared to most, their memory was remarkably good. Also, I

think of people with Aspergers as visual thinkers, quick to pick out patterns, etc. So, to me it seems incongruous that those same abilities would go hand-in-hand with face blindness. Daneka From: <meganfar2go (DOT) net>Subject: RE: Face blind - To: aspires-relationships Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 4:18 PM I do fine with faces much of the time, but part of the time things just don’t work right. It depends upon the face. There are some people’s faces that I consistently mix up with each other, and there are others that I consistently fail to recognize, as if they are lacking some feature that I need. Perhaps it is something like color blindness: certain facial features don’t register but others do.

Of course this can be very embarrassing. I often feel reluctant to talk to people because I am not sure if I know them or not. I tend to wait until they recognize me. This can make it hard to meet new people! From: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com [mailto:aspires- relationships@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Greg GreerSent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:08 PMTo: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) comSubject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind - I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to

do with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them. Greg dx AS at 53 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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[Guest guest]

Oops, yes, I can imagine that happening. I rarely recognize

people when they are somewhere I am not expecting them to be, and yet they

almost always recognize me. It is rather embarrassing, because they do

sometimes think I am ignoring them, which I most certainly am not. I make

excuses about not seeing well, which is partly true, but I knew there was something

else happening (or not happening) to cause it—something to do with face

recognition. I just didn’t have a name for it.

From:

aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Greg Greer

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:45 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: RE: Face blind -

The pattern

consists of the face in a context. If I see someone in a business suit

all the time then I may fail to recognise them if I walked part them and they

were dressed in T shirt and shorts with thongs (feet).

I can remember

faces better if they have something that is very distinghuising like a very

large nose or a large mole above one eye.

I have walked

right past my wife and two daughters in a supermarket and they thought I was

ignoring them. I did not see them yet they were 6 feet away. Maybe

I am not paying attention.

Greg

dx AS at 53

Daneka

Wheeler

Sent by:

aspires-relationships

09/05/2008

04:27 AM

Please respond to

aspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships

cc

Subject

RE:

Face blind -

and Greg,

Thanks. Do you think it has to do with the face or facial features registering

initially or with remembering the features? I ask because it seems to

have some element of memory, though I remember the topic of memory coming

up before on this list and the AS members felt that compared to most, their

memory was remarkably good. Also, I think of people with Aspergers as

visual thinkers, quick to pick out patterns, etc. So, to me it seems

incongruous that those same abilities would go hand-in-hand with face

blindness.

Daneka

Subject: RE: Face blind -

To: aspires-relationships

Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 4:18 PM

I do fine with faces much

of the time, but part of the time things just don’t work right. It depends

upon the face. There are some people’s faces that I consistently mix up

with each other, and there are others that I consistently fail to

recognize, as if they are lacking some feature that I need. Perhaps it is

something like color blindness: certain facial features don’t register but

others do.

Of course this can be very

embarrassing. I often feel reluctant to talk to people because I am not

sure if I know them or not. I tend to wait until they recognize me. This

can make it hard to meet new people!

From: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com [mailto:aspires- relationships@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Greg

Greer

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:08 PM

To: aspires-relationshi psyahoogroups (DOT) com

Subject: Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind -

I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in

face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect

to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that

context.

This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and

cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for

them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them.

Greg

dx AS at 53

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!

Mobile. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

,

My answer may change as I start to pay more attention to this,

but right now, picturing it in my memory, it seems that the faces I don’t

remember are indistinct, almost as though they were missing or had been placed

with faded photographs, and the ones I do remember are clear and sharp. If I

try to picture Judi Dench, I don’t see anything at all of her. I saw her photo earlier

today on the web, but now what I am remembering is someone else I know that

looks a little bit like her. I can picture the woman I had trouble recognizing earlier

today, but that image is kind of washed out. I still have a clear picture of the

other woman I am hoping to see again on Sunday, and her name tag. I can’t think

of what her hair style is called or the name for the shape of her face, but I can

visualize them, as well as the dress she was wearing and other details.

The faces I have the most trouble with may be more oval, with softer

features. I have never thought about this before. I have an idea, though. These

are people from my church, and I have a church directory—with photos! Maybe I

can discover a pattern.

From:

aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Princess

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:02 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: RE: Face blind -

,

A name tag would do it for me, as long as she wore it

when I saw her again! I am glad that her face was one that appeared

distinctive to you. What makes them more distinctive to you?

[Guest guest]

, I think yours is a bit different from mine, but it is interesting: let me know what pattern you discover. I know that soft oval faces can be hard for me as well, if there are no other features of interest. I tell them, Speak to me please- or better yet- wear a name tag! I have been konwn to stare at hands or other body parts in situations like these. Do you? wrote: , My answer may change as I start to pay more attention to this, but right now, picturing it in my memory, it seems that the faces I don’t remember are indistinct, almost as though they were missing or had been placed with faded photographs, and the ones I do remember are clear and sharp. If I try to picture Judi Dench, I don’t see anything at all of her. I saw her photo earlier today on the web, but now what I am remembering is someone else I know that looks a little bit like her. I can picture the woman I had trouble recognizing earlier today, but that image is kind of washed out. I still have a clear picture of the other woman I am hoping to see again on Sunday, and her name tag. I can’t think of what

her hair style is called or the name for the shape of her face, but I can visualize them, as well as the dress she was wearing and other details. The faces I have the most trouble with may be more oval, with softer features. I have never thought about this before. I have an idea, though. These are people from my church, and I have a church directory—with photos! Maybe I can discover a pattern. From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of Princess

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:02 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: RE: Face blind - , A name tag would do it for me, as long as she wore it when I saw her again! I am glad that her face was one that appeared distinctive to you. What makes them more distinctive to you?

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[Guest guest]

Thanks ,I actually printed your description out to keep. It's absolutely fascinating how you've managed so thoughtfully to break down the steps of recognizing someone. You're very resourceful and creative. There's some irony there. You, who I've come to know through your posts, are a real "people person" in the sense that you seem very interested in other people's concerns. You're very encouraging to others, very generous in your advice, and very kind in your judgments. Yet, there's the face blindness that leads some people to think you're "stuck up." I do exactly the opposite. I just returned from a week away to attend my son's grammar school reunion in LA. I haven't seen these people in over 10 years, and they've all changed in significant ways - some have gained weight, hair color and style is

different, some now wear eye glasses, age affects facial features, etc. I instantly recognized every one, yet I could not tell you if any one of them has smile lines or a straight nose. The prominent features I could - one friend has unusually dark eyes, another has very large teeth when she smiles, and another has a very prominent nose. For the most part, though, I could recognize them instantly but couldn't tell you their particular facial features. After reading your description, I tried to think of how exactly I recognize them, and I can't come up with an answer. I definitely take in an overall snapshot, subconsciously .I have more questions. (1) I forget whether you make eye contact. My understanding is that some with Aspergers have less trouble with eye contact than others. Do the two go together, so that if you do make eye contact, are you more likely to remember that person out of

context? (2) When you approach someone or someone approaches you, do you actually mentally go through the process you described? for everyone or just more casual acquaintances? Is your checklist always there, like a library or a mental spreadsheet? so that someone you met a year ago would have a "coordinate," and if you're given the time to match their particular features, you'd recognize them? (3) Do you think that part of not recognizing someone is that you are "in the moment" when you see them, so that at church, people are more familiar because you're mental state is open to visiting with people following the service. On the other hand, when you bump into someone across town, your mind is somewhere else not expecting to see them, so that they're sort of a distraction. My husband, AS, is not face blind, but he can appear to be face blind because his normal mental state is intense focus. He

is literally jolted out of his own mental place when he unexpectedly meets someone. Very interesting that face blindness is NOT typical of people with Aspergers. I've got to run, but I thank you very much for your response. Daneka Hi ,You mentioned that you were face blind. Would you mind describing what exactly that means? I've heard descriptions before, but they always sort of assumed that it was a self-evident term.Are there varying degrees? For instance, can you read a face in one setting, but not recognize it in another. Does it happen to people you've known for a long time?Also, is that different from not being able to read facial expressions and other nonverbal signals? My husband is able to read obvious expressions but misses the more subtle ones. I hope you don't mind all the

questions.thanks,Daneka Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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Okay. Okay.Everyone forms a "visual" of people they get to know on line, but , my "visual" of you was not De Niro in Taxi Driver! LOL!What a hoot!Daneka robert di niro said it well in taxi driver: he looked in the mirror and said...to himself..." you talkin to me"? he didnt recognise himself. he didnt see he was allready nuts. i think he was playing a character with some problems. AS never recognises anyone, anywhere. doesnt let it worry me. Recent Activity 1 New MembersVisit Your Group Meditation and Lovingkindness A Yahoo!

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[Guest guest]

Don't know if I am typical of NTs, but I can place the face to where I know

someone from, and can usually attach a rather long set of backstory—as in,

" she's a novelist, married to that journalist with the mustache who carries a

cane whom she met through an article he wrote for the paper, and they have three

sons " —but am very bad at names. Have tried for years to do the Dale Carnegie

thing of a mental picture or creating a mnemonic, but that generally results in

me making too broad an association and guessing wrong from among the limited

choices. (I remember she had the same name of someone at my table in cooking

class in junior high school. Is it Sue? Kathy?)

I once had a face-blind boss who had a quite unusual job; everyone who worked

with him remembered him in great detail and would approach him (I'd never given

any thought to how many people held a grudge because he didn't speak to them

first!) On my first day of work, he said, " If I don't introduce you within in

10 seconds, and I rarely will, your job is to offer your hand and say, 'He gets

so wrapped up chatting with old friends that he forgets to introduce me. I'm

, I'm handling the <insert name here> project. And you are? " They inevitably

responded with, " I'm Annette. I worked on the such and such project. " Memory in

place, he jumped back into the conversation with some witty story about that

project.

> I think yours is a bit different from mine, but it is

> interesting: let me know what pattern you discover. I

> know that soft oval faces can be hard for me as well, if

> there are no other features of interest. I tell them,

> Speak to me please- or better yet- wear a name tag! I have

> been konwn to stare at hands or other body parts in

> situations like these. Do you?

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Daneka, Thank you for your really encouraging words. If there is such a thing as an AS people person, it might indeed be me: I love people and care about them, even if I am first with the wrong answer at times, when it comes to reading social cues. There are times when I know a person from context, and do not think about any checklist whatsoever- I just know. This can also happen if the person speaks to me and I recognize the voice. In context, I often do not give it any energy at all: I tend to pull out those checklists when I am either looking for someone and do not see him or her, or when I am confronted with someone whom I do not immediately recognize. There are now times when it is instantaneous, and I do not think about it either. I have been praying for healing with regard to this. As to eye contact, mine was terrible until maybe three years ago-

then, it was just bad until two years ago. About a year ago, when I first began to research whether I was AS, I really acknowledged that there were times I would look someone in the eyes and there would be a sense of anxiousness that hit me- I had to look away- it would happen sporatically, but it would happen. I could not explain it, but I could not completely prevent it either, and tit threw off my rhythm as far as eye contact was concerned- then, I could look again, but would not know if I were staring too hard or not looking enough- and there is no really good cognitive way to get that (well, there probably is, but I do not know it!). By September, my doctor prescribed blood pressure medication for me in a very low dose, which happened to be a beta-blocker, and ever since, I have not noticed any of these problems with eye contact. I have been delighted to look, unhinered, ever since. I did look before- but there were times it was

interrupted. I would never know when this would happen- and now, I never worry about that anymore. And, I intuitively know how long to stare- as I did before, when the little bit of anxiousness did not cause me to need to look away. My father, who made excellent eye contact and often instructed me (with frustration and bewilderment!) when I was a child, to look him in the eye when he was talking to me, was faceblind as well. Eye contact will help me to remember the parts of the eyes that deal with the few facial emotions I recognize (list growing from week to week!), but will not get me the rest of the face. Still, if I look at a person when he or she speaks (especially if several of us are talking- that gives me longer that I can look without seeming to stare), then I can memorize more features. The thing that really helps is if the person is talking very

animatedly- excitedly- and his or her facial features are in flux constantly! When that happens for long enough, a face can imprint- or partly imprint- and then I can just do things as you do with that person. I have had this happen a few times. About 2 1/2 minutes will do the trick, I think. I do get distracted as well, but do not mind it when someone comes upon me unexpectedly. Daneka Wheeler wrote: Thanks ,I actually printed your description out to keep. It's absolutely fascinating how you've managed so thoughtfully to break down the steps of recognizing someone. You're very resourceful and creative. There's some irony there. You, who I've come to know through your posts, are a real "people person" in the sense that you seem very interested in other people's concerns. You're very encouraging to others, very generous in your advice, and very kind in your judgments. Yet, there's the face blindness that leads some people to think you're "stuck up." I do exactly the opposite. I just returned from a week away to attend my son's grammar school reunion in LA. I haven't seen these people in over 10 years, and they've all changed in significant ways - some have gained weight, hair color and style is different, some

now wear eye glasses, age affects facial features, etc. I instantly recognized every one, yet I could not tell you if any one of them has smile lines or a straight nose. The prominent features I could - one friend has unusually dark eyes, another has very large teeth when she smiles, and another has a very prominent nose. For the most part, though, I could recognize them instantly but couldn't tell you their particular facial features. After reading your description, I tried to think of how exactly I recognize them, and I can't come up with an answer. I definitely take in an overall snapshot, subconsciously .I have more questions. (1) I forget whether you make eye contact. My understanding is that some with Aspergers have less trouble with eye contact than others. Do the two go together, so that if you do make eye contact, are you more likely to remember that person out of context? (2) When you

approach someone or someone approaches you, do you actually mentally go through the process you described? for everyone or just more casual acquaintances? Is your checklist always there, like a library or a mental spreadsheet? so that someone you met a year ago would have a "coordinate," and if you're given the time to match their particular features, you'd recognize them? (3) Do you think that part of not recognizing someone is that you are "in the moment" when you see them, so that at church, people are more familiar because you're mental state is open to visiting with people following the service. On the other hand, when you bump into someone across town, your mind is somewhere else not expecting to see them, so that they're sort of a distraction. My husband, AS, is not face blind, but he can appear to be face blind because his normal mental state is intense focus. He is literally jolted out of his own mental place

when he unexpectedly meets someone. Very interesting that face blindness is NOT typical of people with Aspergers. I've got to run, but I thank you very much for your response. Daneka Hi ,You mentioned that you were face blind. Would you mind describing what exactly that means? I've heard descriptions before, but they always sort of assumed that it was a self-evident term.Are there varying degrees? For instance, can you read a face in one setting, but not

recognize it in another. Does it happen to people you've known for a long time?Also, is that different from not being able to read facial expressions and other nonverbal signals? My husband is able to read obvious expressions but misses the more subtle ones. I hope you don't mind all the questions.thanks,Daneka Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend,

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[Guest guest]

Thanks, ! I can really see how this works. Maybe, we'll have a faceblind president one day! wrote: Don't know if I am typical of NTs, but I can place the face to where I know someone from, and can usually attach a rather long set of backstory—as in, "she's a novelist, married to that journalist with the mustache who carries a cane whom she met through an article he wrote for the paper, and they have three sons"—but am very bad at

names. Have tried for years to do the Dale Carnegie thing of a mental picture or creating a mnemonic, but that generally results in me making too broad an association and guessing wrong from among the limited choices. (I remember she had the same name of someone at my table in cooking class in junior high school. Is it Sue? Kathy?) I once had a face-blind boss who had a quite unusual job; everyone who worked with him remembered him in great detail and would approach him (I'd never given any thought to how many people held a grudge because he didn't speak to them first!) On my first day of work, he said, "If I don't introduce you within in 10 seconds, and I rarely will, your job is to offer your hand and say, 'He gets so wrapped up chatting with old friends that he forgets to introduce me. I'm , I'm handling the <insert name here> project. And you are?" They inevitably responded with, "I'm Annette. I worked on the such and such project." Memory in place,

he jumped back into the conversation with some witty story about that project. > I think yours is a bit different from mine, but it is> interesting: let me know what pattern you discover. I> know that soft oval faces can be hard for me as well, if> there are no other features of interest. I tell them, > Speak to me please- or better yet- wear a name tag! I have> been konwn to stare at hands or other body parts in> situations like these. Do you?> > __________________________________________________________Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

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I can usually recognize the voices. I can almost always recognize the faces too, I just don't always remember how I know them or their names.

Sandy

Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind -

I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them.

Greg

dx AS at 53

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Daneka

I couldn't agree with you more about your beautiful description about . you are a gem (as in diamond.) And Daneka, so are you.

Sandy

Re: Face blind -

Thanks ,I actually printed your description out to keep. It's absolutely fascinating how you've managed so thoughtfully to break down the steps of recognizing someone. You're very resourceful and creative. There's some irony there. You, who I've come to know through your posts, are a real "people person" in the sense that you seem very interested in other people's concerns. You're very encouraging to others, very generous in your advice, and very kind in your judgments. Yet, there's the face blindness that leads some people to think you're "stuck up." I do exactly the opposite. I just returned from a week away to attend my son's grammar school reunion in LA. I haven't seen these people in over 10 years, and they've all changed in significant ways - some have gained weight, hair color and style is different, some now wear eye glasses, age affects facial features, etc. I

instantly recognized every one, yet I could not tell you if any one of them has smile lines or a straight nose. The prominent features I could - one friend has unusually dark eyes, another has very large teeth when she smiles, and another has a very prominent nose. For the most part, though, I could recognize them instantly but couldn't tell you their particular facial features. After reading your description, I tried to think of how exactly I recognize them, and I can't come up with an answer. I definitely take in an overall snapshot, subconsciously .I have more questions. (1) I forget whether you make eye contact. My understanding is that some with Aspergers have less trouble with eye contact than others. Do the two go together, so that if you do make eye contact, are you more likely to remember that person out of context? (2) When you approach someone or someone approaches you, do

you actually mentally go through the process you described? for everyone or just more casual acquaintances? Is your checklist always there, like a library or a mental spreadsheet? so that someone you met a year ago would have a "coordinate, " and if you're given the time to match their particular features, you'd recognize them? (3) Do you think that part of not recognizing someone is that you are "in the moment" when you see them, so that at church, people are more familiar because you're mental state is open to visiting with people following the service. On the other hand, when you bump into someone across town, your mind is somewhere else not expecting to see them, so that they're sort of a distraction. My husband, AS, is not face blind, but he can appear to be face blind because his normal mental state is intense focus. He is literally jolted out of his own mental place when he unexpectedly meets

someone. Very interesting that face blindness is NOT typical of people with Aspergers. I've got to run, but I thank you very much for your response. Daneka

Hi ,You mentioned that you were face blind. Would you mind describing what exactly that means? I've heard descriptions before, but they always sort of assumed that it was a self-evident term.Are there varying degrees? For instance, can you read a face in one setting, but not recognize it in another. Does it happen to people you've known for a long time?Also, is that different from not being able to read facial expressions and other nonverbal signals? My husband is able to read obvious expressions but misses the more subtle ones. I hope you don't mind all the questions.thanks,Daneka

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[Guest guest]

Sandy, I have had it happen to me that a name is familiar to me, and that I am not sure from where. I think this is a bit how you miht feel wihe a face is familiar, but you are not too sure where you know the face from. I have another friend stuck in my head since yesterday- she just moved nearby, and I had no idea I would know her out of context, but I saw her at the post office without knowing in advance thatr she would be there. When she said hellp to me, I actually knew who it was! I was praising the Lord for the rest of the day! Still am! Dahlberg wrote: I can usually recognize the voices. I can almost always recognize the faces too, I just don't always remember how I know them or their names. Sandy Re: [aspires-relationsh ips] Face blind - I have taken the faceblind test online. I found out that I was below par in face recognition. Mainly to do with people who I might meet and expect to see only in certain places and I do not recognise them outside that context. This becomes a realproblemin a crowd if you are looking for someone and cannot see them. I have often walked right past people when looking for them to my embarrassment. They do not accept that I did not see them. Greg dx AS at 53 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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