Re: Trust the NT!

[Guest guest]

trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one. let me try and explain; inductive processes argue from the particular to the general. whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular. if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up. i can deduce the odds of this happening. the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin? if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up. , while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin? Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario

may not be so in a given scenario. i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned. but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it. it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation. i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it. i am deficient in doing same when you have. you are deficient when asking for same when you havent. you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine. 36 m diagnosed ASsrabande wrote: "me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps

a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things). Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way! Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NT

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[Guest guest]

> "me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" > it worked."> > Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!> > It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things). > > Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!> > Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way! > > Trust the NT!!!!> > Regards,> Anita 55 NT> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good>

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote:

[ snip ]

> *Trust the NT!!!!*

....and take no prisoners.

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

that is what it feels like to me... a lack of  trust on his part and it is very hurtful, discouraging and deadening.   He would probably argue that that is not what it is at all, but that is my perception as to how he views his human contacts and interactions.  He even said that to me once... "I don't want to be like "them".   Love does not grow in an atmosphere of percieved suspicion and disdain.  jkz who is remorseful  for venting ealier with why why why. "me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this !   Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles?   Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things).   Only GOOD things will happen!  NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way!  Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NT

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote: --- Anita Responds:Can you explain the levels of trust needed between AS and NT before teeth can be brushed, showers taken, doctor visits scheduled? me here: trust is one of those intangible quantities that cannot be proven that you dont have it. you said: Are relationships between AS and NT so highly charged even these basic levels of trust cannot be accomplished? me here: it can be so. it takes more time, effort and work. there is AS involved as well. you said:I fully understand your position about earned trust, this has me pondering whether AS and NT relationships never really contained mutually earned and respected trust.Regards,Anita 55 NT> > --- me here: mutually earned? unlikely. 36 m diagnosed AS. .

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[Guest guest]

I have to agree with this from . I hear what you are saying but I think it is not likely to occur. And I am guessing that you weren't entirely serious, maybe just expressing frustration and looking for an easy answer.

In my case it's just simplistic to expect my husband to trust everything I say and honestly, in truth I don't want that burden. Because I don't want myself in the parent or mommy role. I want a partner, not another child. I think too many women forget that aspect (and if sex is out the window in your relationship, that may be why. Or you don't care about sex and that is why you have a different perspective. Which is also fine, I'm not here to judge at all, it's just to explain why it might not work for others.) For me if I have to be his "mom", sex kind of goes out the window. And pardon me but I'd rather keep it in the house....

Although I didn't understand his AS condition (and he still doesn't, and is undisagnosed formally) I was attracted to my husband's intelligence and I like to focus on the positives. Of course we're together 19 years (17 married) and so there isn't much that fazes anymore. My goal (as he is quite an intelligent man, and does the same job/career as I do in lawyering, and I want to be able to love him which for me necessitates respect) is that I am not his Mommy, but his wife, lover, friend. Therefore I am way past telling him to brush his teeth. I get enough stress when I find that i am put in the role of driving him here or there because he doesn't want to deal with something, or calling to order a pizza because he can't handle it (after trying a case in front of a jury) or that he otherwise is so emotionally dependent on me that I want to run and hide, when I also do the same job he does and raise our child with virtually no help from him. I don't mind when he asks me how a particular suit looks, for going to court -- I consider it a loving touch to help him look his best. But reminding him to brush his teeth... I have enough other work to do.

Anyway I'm just trying to say, if those are issues you are dealing with (whether to brush his teeth), more power to you, but every relationship is different and that "trust" thing is not going to necessarily be the panacea for others that it might be for you at this particular spot. And five years from now if you are still together, I am guessing it might not be the same there either.

Best,

Re: Trust the NT!

trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one.

let me try and explain;

inductive processes argue from the particular to the general.

whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular.

if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up.

i can deduce the odds of this happening.

the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin?

if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up.

, while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin?

Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario may not be so in a given scenario.

i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.

but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it.

it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation.

i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it.

i am deficient in doing same when you have.

you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.

you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine.

36 m diagnosed ASsrabande <SRABANDEaol> wrote:

"me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things). Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way! Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NT

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[Guest guest]

so war-like and confrontational Bill... I shut down... what DO you mean... ???  Take no prisioners to me indicates that all those who surrender will be shot! jkz cringingsrabande wrote:[ snip ]> *Trust the NT!!!!*...and take no prisoners.- Bill, 75, AS-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> so war-like and confrontational Bill... I shut down... what DO you

> mean... ??? Take no prisioners to me indicates that all those who

> surrender will be shot! jkz cringing

The tone of the original was too " war-like and confrontational " for

*me*. *I* shut down. ...Something I don't do very often anymore.

You should have seen all the responses I *didn't* send.

>

>

>

>> srabande wrote:

>> [ snip ]

>>

>>> *Trust the NT!!!!*

>>

>> ...and take no prisoners.

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Janet Zee here,  I am  the wife with the tooth brushing issues... it is not about  being the Mommy... it is about not being able to respond to the husband sexually because he has very bad breath.. being wakened from a sound sleep with eyes watering from his dragon breath... It is also about spending extra money we really don't have  at the dentist to save the teeth all because he is too_______(you fill in the blank) to brush and floss like the rest of us.   jkz being clear. I have to agree with this from .  I hear what you are saying but I think it is not likely to occur.  And I am guessing that you weren't entirely serious, maybe just expressing frustration and looking for an easy answer.  In my case it's just simplistic to expect my husband to trust everything I say and honestly, in truth I don't want that burden.  Because I don't want myself in the parent or mommy role.  I want a partner, not another child.  I think too many women forget that aspect (and if sex is out the window in your relationship, that may be why.  Or you don't care about sex and that is why you have a different perspective.  Which is also fine, I'm not here to judge at all, it's just to explain why it might not work for others.)  For me if I have to be his "mom", sex kind of goes out the window. And pardon me but I'd rather keep it in the house.... Although I didn't understand his AS condition (and he still doesn't, and is undisagnosed formally) I was attracted to my husband's intelligence and I like to focus on the positives.  Of course we're together 19 years (17 married) and so there isn't much that fazes anymore.  My goal (as he is quite an intelligent man, and does the same job/career as I do in lawyering, and I want to be able to love him which for me necessitates respect) is that I am not his Mommy, but his wife, lover, friend.  Therefore I am way past telling him to brush his teeth.  I get enough stress when I find that i am put in the role of driving him here or there because he doesn't want to deal with something, or calling to order a pizza because he can't handle it (after trying a case in front of a jury) or that he otherwise is so emotionally dependent on me that I want to run and hide, when I also do the same job he does and raise our child with virtually no help from him.   I don't mind when he asks me how a particular suit looks, for going to court -- I consider it a loving touch to help him look his best.  But reminding him to brush his teeth... I have enough other work to do. Anyway I'm just trying to say, if those are issues you are dealing with (whether to brush his teeth), more power to you, but every relationship is different and that "trust" thing is not going to necessarily be the panacea for others that it might be for you at this particular spot.  And five years from now if you are still together, I am guessing it might not be the same there either. Best,   Re: Trust the NT!trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one.let me try and explain; inductive processes argue from the particular to the general.whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular. if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up.i can deduce the odds of this happening.the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin? if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up., while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin? Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario may not be so in a given scenario. i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it. it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation.i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it.i am deficient in doing same when you have.you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine.  36 m diagnosed ASsrabande <SRABANDEaol> wrote:"me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this !   Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles?   Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things).   Only GOOD things will happen!  NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way!  Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NTSupport the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good

[Guest guest]

I hear you, janet. I understand. I wasn't addressing your situation though. It may be that your husband's dental issues started this talk but I didn't know that and I was just really responding to Srabande with "trust the nt!" because if it has progressed to that point it has with your husband with serious dental issues it probably isn't going to help if now he "trusts you" and brushes his teeth daily anyway. So it becomes sort of moot. If you now say "trust me... brush your teeth!" it isn't advice that is going to be meaningful for you. I doubt if you said it years ago it would have helped you, either. That is my only point, that someone was making it sound like a panacea and I was just playing "devil's advocate" that it may not really be. Now it's about spending money and other issues and you are either willing, or you aren't. There really isn't a wrong answer. It is what it is. Years back on this list i posted about my husband burying his truck in the backyard in the mud because he wouldn't listen to my advice to use a wheelbarrow, which almost resulted in his blowing a transmission but he ultimately listened to me about calling a tow truck (I had to call it because he was too embarrassed.) So yes I understand these things. But he wouldnt' "trust me" to use a wheelbarrow because he thought it made more sense to not have to exert his personal muscle, but to drive the truck back there and fill the truck bed. Seemed logical to him at the time. I have the photo of the truck buried in the yard which some day I hope to smile with him over....

Re: Trust the NT!

trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one.

let me try and explain;

inductive processes argue from the particular to the general.

whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular.

if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up.

i can deduce the odds of this happening.

the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin?

if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up.

, while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin?

Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario may not be so in a given scenario.

i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.

but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it.

it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation.

i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it.

i am deficient in doing same when you have.

you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.

you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine.

36 m diagnosed ASsrabande <SRABANDEaol> wrote:

"me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things). Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way! Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NT

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[Guest guest]

I don't understand the rigidness...exhibited in many areas...  it makes it  HARDER for the AS too.  Perhaps if the AS gets some help with this when they are young, it might be possible for them to 'change'... by change, I mean confidant to take a chance and trying out new ways of doing things.  And not viewing the advice of those who are well- intentioned and do know what they are doing, with such a great deal of mistrust, suspicion and stubborness.    If AS are so 'logical' why aren't they sensible as well.. back to tooth brushing... everyone around you is brushing their teeth, flossing, bleaching, cleaning.etc.   Why (sorry, there is just no other word) does not the AS person see that they are just as subject to tooth decay and dental disease as anyone else?   What exactly is so important that they reject what seems to most common sense and deliberately head down a path toward most certain pain , discomfort, expense, and possibly false teeth?   I use this as an example but there are other subjects this concept applies to. NT, grim-faced and sweating,"I'll show you, I'll just nag and nag and nag until that toothbrush is actually in your mouth.  What a victory that will be for me!   I'll win, I'll be right, it's the most important thing ever and I won't stop until I get my way and break you down into a mindless idiot with toothpaste on your chin... victory at last, so sweet. "   really , who would bother to try to help the AS with hygeine issues... only the one who cares about them ... everyone else says ugh and moves away.    jkz rambling, must fix food before he faints.  I hear you, janet.  I understand.  I wasn't addressing your situation though.  It may be that your husband's dental issues started this talk but I didn't know that and I was just really responding to Srabande with "trust the nt!" because if it has progressed to that point it has with your husband with serious dental issues it probably isn't going to help if now he "trusts you" and brushes his teeth daily anyway. So it becomes sort of moot.  If you now say "trust me... brush your teeth!" it isn't advice that is going to be meaningful for you.  I doubt if you said it years ago it would have helped you, either.  That is my only point, that someone was making it sound like a panacea and I was just playing "devil's advocate" that it may not really be.  Now it's about spending money and other issues and you are either willing, or you aren't.  There really isn't a wrong answer.  It is what it is.  Years back on this list i posted about my husband burying his truck in the backyard in the mud because he wouldn't listen to my advice to use a wheelbarrow, which almost resulted in his blowing a transmission but he ultimately listened to me about calling a tow truck (I had to call it because he was too embarrassed.)  So yes I understand these things.  But he wouldnt' "trust me" to use a wheelbarrow because he thought it made more sense to not have to exert his personal muscle, but to drive the truck back there and fill the truck bed.  Seemed logical to him at the time.  I have the photo of the truck buried in the yard which some day I hope to smile with him over....       Re: Trust the NT!trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one.let me try and explain; inductive processes argue from the particular to the general.whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular. if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up.i can deduce the odds of this happening.the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin? if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up., while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin? Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario may not be so in a given scenario. i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it. it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation.i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it.i am deficient in doing same when you have.you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine.  36 m diagnosed ASsrabande <SRABANDEaol> wrote:"me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this !   Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles?   Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things).   Only GOOD things will happen!  NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way!  Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NTSupport the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good

[Guest guest]

Janet,

This is how I understand it from my husband, my friends, and things I have read and learned. Which actually highlights the differences between people, including AS people, and why I get so "spazzed- out" when "fellow" NTS make what I view as generalizations.

As an AS person, just in other ways like an NT, there is a limited amount of energy, that one can have, at any given point in time. It may just be more compartmentalized with an AS person.

It is, I think truly, about a person's energy.

Some people have no trouble at all (even AS people) with hygeine issues, so those issues take no energy at all. They are non-issues. In fact those persons (one of whom, who is AS, I am very very close to) may even perseverate a bit on toothbrushing... One AS friend is very "serious" about brushing his teeth, and is attracted to women with nice white teeth among other attributes... and is very tuned in to personal hygiene. He is no less AS than another AS friend of mine... he just has different interests/tastes/focuses.

However, I know another person (AS) who spends little time thinking about person hygiene... who, with his example, grew up in a family with AS parents, who really didn't focus on teeth or teeth brushing... in fact, surprising as it was to me, given their upper middle class existence, in fact the Dad who is definitely AS to me, is the political leader of a village and the Mom is also AS, and these are people who have successfully run businesses, and are very wealthy... well, the daily brushing of teeth, takes a lot of energy, for one of these persons. It is just not something he can handle. He'd rather spend 5,000 at a clip getting his teeth fixed if they are falling out of his mouth.

Do you understand, a little? It's not logic, for many. It's energy. It's "I don't care... I can't handle that right now... I'll deal with it later... or never... or whenever."

I don't know if this makes any sense, but I've found that energy is a huge thing among AS friends and family members.

Re: Trust the NT!

trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one.

let me try and explain;

inductive processes argue from the particular to the general.

whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular.

if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up.

i can deduce the odds of this happening.

the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin?

if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up.

, while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin?

Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario may not be so in a given scenario.

i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.

but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it.

it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation.

i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it.

i am deficient in doing same when you have.

you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.

you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine.

36 m diagnosed ASsrabande <SRABANDEaol> wrote:

"me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things). Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way! Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NT

Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good

[Guest guest]

Amen! My AS husband and I have a fairly successful marriage. I'm

not looking to leave. One reason - he does trust me and looks for me

to solve many problems, because I can. He also contributes to our

marriage in the ways that he can. He is a very reliable and honest

person. I do get a tad discouraged when I read of some of the

terrible situations that others are experiencing here. Hence, some

of my most negative replies are in response to these.

Without trust, there is nothing worth building on. I couldn't stand

being married to someone who distrusts me and what I say. I would

leave in an instant and allow us both to find a happier life. Verleen

> " me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some

> filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided

> that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well.

> we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight

> with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her

> judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand

> some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well.

> prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it

> did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to

> adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an

> conversation with her saying... " your just not gunna get this one, so

> let me do it and you dont have to worry about it "

> it worked. "

>

> Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the

> quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things

> usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!

>

> It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean

> clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of

> these things).

>

> Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS

> will be the recipient of compliments and praise!

>

> Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way!

>

> Trust the NT!!!!

>

> Regards,

> Anita 55 NT

>

[Guest guest]

Amen! My AS husband and I have a fairly successful marriage. I'm

not looking to leave. One reason - he does trust me and looks for me

to solve many problems, because I can. He also contributes to our

marriage in the ways that he can. He is a very reliable and honest

person. I do get a tad discouraged when I read of some of the

terrible situations that others are experiencing here. Hence, some

of my most negative replies are in response to these.

Without trust, there is nothing worth building on. I couldn't stand

being married to someone who distrusts me and what I say. I would

leave in an instant and allow us both to find a happier life. Verleen

> " me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some

> filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided

> that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well.

> we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight

> with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her

> judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand

> some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well.

> prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it

> did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to

> adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an

> conversation with her saying... " your just not gunna get this one, so

> let me do it and you dont have to worry about it "

> it worked. "

>

> Thank you for this ! Could this, perhaps be the the

> quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles? Trust the NT! The things

> usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!

>

> It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean

> clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of

> these things).

>

> Only GOOD things will happen! NT will start to do the happy dance, AS

> will be the recipient of compliments and praise!

>

> Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way!

>

> Trust the NT!!!!

>

> Regards,

> Anita 55 NT

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.

> > but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean

> it.

> >

> > it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the

> equation.

> > i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when

> you havent earned it.

> > i am deficient in doing same when you have.

> > you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.

> > you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it

> is mine.

> >

> > 36 m diagnosed AS

>

> Anita Responds:

>

> Can you explain the levels of trust needed between AS and NT before

> teeth can be brushed, showers taken, doctor visits scheduled?

>

> Are relationships between AS and NT so highly charged even these basic

> levels of trust cannot be accomplished?

>

> I fully understand your position about earned trust, this has me

> pondering whether AS and NT relationships never really contained

> mutually earned and respected trust.

>

> Regards,

> Anita 55 NT

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.

> > but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean

> it.

> >

> > it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the

> equation.

> > i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when

> you havent earned it.

> > i am deficient in doing same when you have.

> > you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.

> > you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it

> is mine.

> >

> > 36 m diagnosed AS

>

> Anita Responds:

>

> Can you explain the levels of trust needed between AS and NT before

> teeth can be brushed, showers taken, doctor visits scheduled?

>

> Are relationships between AS and NT so highly charged even these basic

> levels of trust cannot be accomplished?

>

> I fully understand your position about earned trust, this has me

> pondering whether AS and NT relationships never really contained

> mutually earned and respected trust.

>

> Regards,

> Anita 55 NT

>

[Guest guest]

Bill and Janet, I have been reading your continuing discussions on

communication, ie asking if the book was read. Perhaps your

discussion is an example of the failure between an AS and NT when

communicating?? Bill, it seemed to me that you added dialog to what

Janet originally posted and now attribute what you wrote to her. And

now attack her on it (what you wrote). I thought Janet was

non-confrontational and felt Bill will sometimes very confrontational.

So much so, that I made a mental note to not read Bill's postings

any more. I don't like the confrontation and sarcasm. Verleen

> >> [ snip ]

> >>

> >>> *Trust the NT!!!!*

> >>

> >> ...and take no prisoners.

>

> - Bill, 75, AS

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Bill and Janet, I have been reading your continuing discussions on

communication, ie asking if the book was read. Perhaps your

discussion is an example of the failure between an AS and NT when

communicating?? Bill, it seemed to me that you added dialog to what

Janet originally posted and now attribute what you wrote to her. And

now attack her on it (what you wrote). I thought Janet was

non-confrontational and felt Bill will sometimes very confrontational.

So much so, that I made a mental note to not read Bill's postings

any more. I don't like the confrontation and sarcasm. Verleen

> >> [ snip ]

> >>

> >>> *Trust the NT!!!!*

> >>

> >> ...and take no prisoners.

>

> - Bill, 75, AS

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

, thanks for your thoughtful and helpful reply.  I understand what you are saying, although I am not sure I can articulate it right now, so I won't try but I am thinking about what you said. I am hoping that some of the other AS on the list can speak to this concept... I can feel some understanding creeping into my brain !  There is the other thing I talked about, what I am coming to see as a 'trust' issue, but maybe that is not really what it is about... Why does the AS person seem like they don't want to take any advice or direction if it conflicts with their ideas?   I think in general that people are all like this but there seems to be a certain brand of stubborn streak in AS .    I admit I don't know very many, none , really except my husband and those on the list here.   Maybe it is just the difficulty that AS have with reciprocation... exhibited in decision making.   does this make sense to anyone?  jkz corn-fusedJanet, This is how I understand it from my husband, my friends, and things I have read and learned.  Which actually highlights the differences between people, including AS people, and why I get so "spazzed- out" when "fellow" NTS make what I view as generalizations. As an AS person, just in other ways like an NT, there is a limited amount of energy, that one can have, at any given point in time.  It may just be more compartmentalized with an AS person. It is, I think truly, about a person's energy. Some people have no trouble at all (even AS people) with hygeine issues, so those issues take no energy at all.  They are non-issues.  In fact those persons (one of whom, who is AS, I am very very close to) may even perseverate a bit on toothbrushing... One AS friend is very "serious" about brushing his teeth, and is attracted to women with nice white teeth among other attributes... and is very tuned in to personal hygiene.  He is no less AS than another AS friend of mine... he just has different interests/tastes/focuses. However, I know another person (AS) who spends little time thinking about person hygiene... who, with his example, grew up in a family with AS parents, who really didn't focus on teeth or teeth brushing... in fact, surprising as it was to me, given their upper middle class existence, in fact the Dad who is definitely AS to me, is the political leader of a village and the Mom  is also AS, and these are people who have successfully run businesses, and are very wealthy... well, the daily brushing of teeth, takes  a lot of energy, for one of these persons.  It is just not something he can handle.  He'd rather spend 5,000 at a clip getting his teeth fixed if they are falling out of his mouth. Do you understand, a little?  It's not logic, for many.  It's energy.  It's "I don't care... I can't handle that right now... I'll deal with it later... or never... or whenever." I don't know if this makes any sense, but I've found that energy is a huge thing among AS friends and family members.  Re: Trust the NT!trust is not an inductive concept, it i s for me as an AS a deductive one.let me try and explain; inductive processes argue from the particular to the general.whereas deductive argure from the general to the particular. if i toss a coin 10 times. and 8 heads and two tails come up.i can deduce the odds of this happening.the underlying unwritten rule is: is it a fair coin? if i toss a coin 10 times and 8 heads and two tails come up., while i can deduce the odds of this occuring, i will probably try and induce the underlying question: was it a fair coin? Most AS have had that many biased coins tossed against them that they no longer deduce the odds. they pick up the freacking coin and check to see that is is a fair coin, point being, blanket trust of an NT while helpfull in my scenario may not be so in a given scenario. i could have put this in one sentence: trust needs to be earned.but it is such an NT cliche you would think i actually didnt mean it. it is an answer: yes. but it is an answer with two parties to the equation.i am not deficient for not autmotically giving you my trust , when you havent earned it.i am deficient in doing same when you have.you are deficient when asking for same when you havent.you cannot ask for same and say you have. it isnt your privelege; it is mine.  36 m diagnosed ASsrabande <SRABANDEaol> wrote:"me and my GF discussed this yesterday. we were talking about some filing issues relating to invoices, credit notes etc. anyway, we decided that there were and are some things i cant do or understand very well. we both decided that she can make decisions and avoid me having to fight with the thought process involved in making them if i were to trust her judgment and allow her to make them. we agreed. if i didn't understand some things, i defer to her abilities, because i trust her to do well. prior to this, i had to know every little decision and process, and it did snag me and i became stuck nothing got done. now i am learning to adapt, better. she helps, she helps a lot. we actually ended an conversation with her saying..." your just not gunna get this one, so let me do it and you dont have to worry about it" it worked."Thank you for this !   Could this, perhaps be the the quintessential root of the AS/NT struggles?   Trust the NT! The things usually being asked could never harm AS in a million years!It could start with bathe, brush teeth, see the dentist, wear clean clothes, things of this nature (nothing bad can happen if AS does any of these things).   Only GOOD things will happen!  NT will start to do the happy dance, AS will be the recipient of compliments and praise!Nothing is a panacea, but this one would go a LONG way!  Trust the NT!!!!Regards,Anita 55 NTSupport the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good

[Guest guest]

Verleen, thanks for the support, but I do have to say that even though Bill comes across harshly at times, I have learned a lot from him even when he pisses me off!  ;-)?   I am here to learn and sometimes the learning is rather painful.  He admits to being a crochety curmudgeon and I respect that.  I appreciate this opportunity to communicate with Bill even though we sometimes doen't see eye to eye.  I think he enjoys that and I am trying to as well even though it is not in my nature.  I agree that sarcasm on this list is mostly a cheap shot.  jkz responding Bill and Janet, I have been reading your continuing discussions oncommunication, ie asking if the book was read. Perhaps yourdiscussion is an example of the failure between an AS and NT whencommunicating?? Bill, it seemed to me that you added dialog to whatJanet originally posted and now attribute what you wrote to her. Andnow attack her on it (what you wrote). I thought Janet wasnon-confrontational and felt Bill will sometimes very confrontational.So much so, that I made a mental note to not read Bill's postingsany more. I don't like the confrontation and sarcasm. Verleen> >> [ snip ]> >>> >>> *Trust the NT!!!!*> >>> >> ...and take no prisoners.> > - Bill, 75, AS> > -- > WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm>

[Guest guest]

Tim, this man has fabulous teeth, otherwise they would be rotted out of his head. At the recent dental visit, no cavities were found, just peridontal disease (we went throught this 5 years ago) It is possible that he doesn't like the toothpaste.  I am skipping around here.. As far as the intention.. Most people tell you things to be helpful.  And most people make suggestions based on the confidance they have in their own skills and knowledge.  I am going out on a limb here but I say that most people believe this and intuitively trust each other.  We try to take care of each other by being helpful.  I don't think AS can sense this.  Or can tell the difference between genuine helpful advice and those who would be malicious.   We are all viewed with suspicion?    that is  a problem for all. and I am thinking about you being in just the immediate.. that can be a handicap, I would think.  All for now... jkz Janet Zimmerman wrote:> I don't understand the rigidness...exhibited in many areas... it makes > it HARDER for the AS too. That's viagra. ;-)Perhaps if the AS gets some help with this> when they are young, it might be possible for them to 'change'... by > change, I mean confidant to take a chance and trying out new ways of > doing things. And not viewing the advice of those who are well- > intentionedDoesn't figure and how can anyone tell intention?and do know what they are doing,How can anyone tell?with such a great deal of> mistrust, suspicion and stubborness. If AS are so 'logical' why > aren't they sensible as well.. back to tooth brushing... everyone around > you is brushing their teeth, flossing, bleaching, cleaning.etc. I don't know the answer but I do notice some things.I'd be interested to know if gum sensitivity is a particular problem, I certainly used to suffer and hated certain tooth stuff, texture, smell.This doesn't mean I didn't brush.There is loads of product which does not work to do with minor dental pain. As a slight aside I heard someone talking about how most pain is emotional, with my reaction of huh? That does fit with how NT cannot be told the information that you have some medical problem, gets an instant mine is worse, is a game and all you want was informing so that acting out of normal would have a known reason.Then there is the self image thing, highly important to NT, lots of emotional stuff too, going scatty, almost become a whole industry.Tomorrow does not exist either. Effect on others does not notice.So I am not surprised if there is some kind of issue.Why> (sorry, there is just no other word) does not the AS person see that > they are just as subject to tooth decay and dental disease as anyone > else?There is no relation to other people, sorry, to objects.Note the emotional and future in what you wrote, we are just us in the immediate.What exactly is so important that they reject what seems to most> common sense and deliberately head down a path toward most certain pain > , discomfort, expense, and possibly false teeth?Just the immediate, no past no future. The future is fiction, not real.In fact tooth decay etc. is a fact of life and has a strong genetic component, so to a degree there is not a lot you can do about it. Diet probably comes into it rather strongly too but not in quite the way often put forward. There is a whole industry doing very nicely out of pushing dreams, using fear as a way of selling way overpriced product.A lot of that will smash to pieces on an AS, emotional advertising by sharks.Q: why is it that most toothpaste tastes terrible, riddled with sweeteners, flavourings, scent? Yuk.Makes little sense to me to have a primary ingredient of sorbitol!I use this as an> example but there are other subjects this concept applies to.> > NT, grim-faced and sweating,> "I'll show you, I'll just nag and nag and nag until that toothbrush is > actually in your mouth. What a victory that will be for me! I'll win, > I'll be right, it's the most important thing ever and I won't stop until > I get my way and break you down into a mindless idiot with toothpaste on > your chin... victory at last, so sweet. " really , who would bother to > try to help the AS with hygeine issues... only the one who cares about > them ... everyone else says ugh and moves away.Actually the matter is very likely not what you expect, like stinking sweat is not caused by the sweat.Brushing probably won't help much.Note the presence on market of essentially deodorants, same problem as deodorants for sweat, are hiding a deeper problem the vendor does not want fixed, they would have no sales then.It might be that brushing using the right stuff is part of a long term answer to a deeper problem. Advice on that would I suspect be difficult to obtain, such being the nature of dentists etc., most probably don't know that much.

[Guest guest]

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> Tim, this man has fabulous teeth, otherwise they would be rotted out of

> his head. At the recent dental visit, no cavities were found, just

> peridontal disease (we went throught this 5 years ago)

I guess a key thing might be finding a dentist who is not a social

communicator and will not try it on.

I'm lucky that I have a dentist I can actually talk to sensibly.

[Guest guest]

Verleen, you just hit the nail on the head. Doesn't matter if a person

is AS, NT, or otherwise. Before there's trust, there must be respect.

Without respect, nothing can be built. Trust comes, then everything

else. Amazing how people will trust others and then something like

infidelity or anything major comes and trust is gone.

I am very happy and content in my life right now, and I am not even in

a relationship with anyone else.

>

> Without trust, there is nothing worth building on. I couldn't stand

> being married to someone who distrusts me and what I say. I would

> leave in an instant and allow us both to find a happier life.

Verleen

[Guest guest]

Scheduled.

Also rather nicely the practice telephone the day before with a

reminder. This is of course stupidly simple and cost effective.

Don't talk to me about anything NHS though, whole different game.

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> Tim, the key is for him to take care of his teeth like a big boy. Like

> you, you take care of your teeth and find a dentist you like. Do you

> make your own appointments ? jkz just wondering.

[Guest guest]

what is NHS? jkz simple is goodScheduled.Also rather nicely the practice telephone the day before with a reminder. This is of course stupidly simple and cost effective.Don't talk to me about anything NHS though, whole different game.Janet Zimmerman wrote:> Tim, the key is for him to take care of his teeth like a big boy. Like > you, you take care of your teeth and find a dentist you like. Do you > make your own appointments ? jkz just wondering.