Re: Bias....An AHA Moment?

[Guest guest]

Anita, I believe that AS can communicate just like NTs do online- after all, there is no eye contact--indeed, there is no reading non-verbal cues at all. Still, well said- I like your post. : ~ ) I have been reading these, and can't wait for Bill's answer! srabande wrote: > Sort of

germane:> picked up on my use of the word "bias". She gave it the > meaning in common, merely social use, where its common *connotation* > implies malice.> I meant no such thing. In my world, my life, the connotation is > merely "unwanted". Often also it connotes "unconscious", or more simply > "unnoticed".> In science, "bias" may be the degree to which an instrument is "off", > not reading correctly. This may be because, unnoticed, its battery is > old and failing.> The "bias" I meant in my ASPIRES post *rarely* is malicious. It > arises in ordinary conversation from things we believe strongly about, > but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe.> Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in. > Like implied premises we *assume* "everybody knows".> > Like my own unthinking premise: Everybody knows the exact, technical

> use of the word, and "of course" will read it the way I meant it.> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...precision is no shield against bias.Precision indeed! This is it! It's NT/AS role reversal! It's what was being discussed in another post about how NT communication changes, so the same thing is said 80 different ways. This was fascinating because you felt took the word "bias" in its most common usage. You went on to say the word: bias, has several figurative uses as well. NT's use figurative speech all the time, which usually drives AS a bit crazy. You say, "things we believe strongly about, but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe." Welcome to the NT world!You say, "Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in." NT communication all the way!You say, "Like implied premises we

*assume* "everybody knows." Now your SWIMMING in a sea of NT'ness!Now all we have to do is define the matrix. Question: Communication: When is it literal, when is it figurative, when does it assume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS?Regards,Anita 55 NT

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[Guest guest]

Anita, I believe that AS can communicate just like NTs do online- after all, there is no eye contact--indeed, there is no reading non-verbal cues at all. Still, well said- I like your post. : ~ ) I have been reading these, and can't wait for Bill's answer! srabande wrote: > Sort of

germane:> picked up on my use of the word "bias". She gave it the > meaning in common, merely social use, where its common *connotation* > implies malice.> I meant no such thing. In my world, my life, the connotation is > merely "unwanted". Often also it connotes "unconscious", or more simply > "unnoticed".> In science, "bias" may be the degree to which an instrument is "off", > not reading correctly. This may be because, unnoticed, its battery is > old and failing.> The "bias" I meant in my ASPIRES post *rarely* is malicious. It > arises in ordinary conversation from things we believe strongly about, > but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe.> Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in. > Like implied premises we *assume* "everybody knows".> > Like my own unthinking premise: Everybody knows the exact, technical

> use of the word, and "of course" will read it the way I meant it.> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...precision is no shield against bias.Precision indeed! This is it! It's NT/AS role reversal! It's what was being discussed in another post about how NT communication changes, so the same thing is said 80 different ways. This was fascinating because you felt took the word "bias" in its most common usage. You went on to say the word: bias, has several figurative uses as well. NT's use figurative speech all the time, which usually drives AS a bit crazy. You say, "things we believe strongly about, but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe." Welcome to the NT world!You say, "Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in." NT communication all the way!You say, "Like implied premises we

*assume* "everybody knows." Now your SWIMMING in a sea of NT'ness!Now all we have to do is define the matrix. Question: Communication: When is it literal, when is it figurative, when does it assume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS?Regards,Anita 55 NT

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[Guest guest]

srabande wrote:

> Communication: When is it literal, when is it figurative, when does it

> assume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to

> describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS?

In this place most AS are at advanced level.

You want confusion? Write affect, ineffective with us, in effect

affecting basic word meaning.

[Guest guest]

Tim, This is funny! As Charley would write (from the movie): That that is not is not that that is is that is that that is not is not that that is (That that is not, is not. That that is, is. That is, that that is not, is not that that is.) Tim Channon wrote: srabande wrote:> Communication: When is it

literal, when is it figurative, when does it> assume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to> describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS?In this place most AS are at advanced level.You want confusion? Write affect, ineffective with us, in effect affecting basic word meaning.

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[Guest guest]

Your AHA moment I presume? I had mine a few years ago, and was very

well-primed decades before that.

srabande wrote:

>

>

>

> > Sort of germane:

> > picked up on my use of the word " bias " . She gave it the

> > meaning in common, merely social use, where its common *connotation*

> > implies malice.

> > I meant no such thing. In my world, my life, the connotation is

> > merely " unwanted " . Often also it connotes " unconscious " , or more simply

> > " unnoticed " .

> > In science, " bias " may be the degree to which an instrument is " off " ,

> > not reading correctly. This may be because, unnoticed, its battery is

> > old and failing.

> > The " bias " I meant in my ASPIRES post *rarely* is malicious. It

> > arises in ordinary conversation from things we believe strongly about,

> > but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe.

> > Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in.

> > Like implied premises we *assume* " everybody knows " .

> >

> > Like my own unthinking premise: Everybody knows the exact, technical

> > use of the word, and " of course " will read it the way I meant it.

> >

> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...precision is no shield against bias.

>

> Precision indeed! This is it! It's NT/AS role reversal! It's what

> was being discussed in another post about how NT communication changes,

> so the same thing is said 80 different ways.

>

> This was fascinating because you felt took the word " bias " in its

> most common usage. You went on to say the word: bias, has several

> figurative uses as well. NT's use figurative speech all the time, which

> usually drives AS a bit crazy.

Not if one's used to it. Survival, doncha know?

>

> You say, " things we believe strongly about, but which merely, and

> innocently, we _forget to describe_. " Welcome to the NT world!

I was here first.

>

> You say, " Like disclaimers we think *surely* are _unnecessary_ and don't

> add in. " NT communication all the way!

Yeah. Sad, isn't it! (All those WMDs...)

>

> You say, " Like implied premises we _*assume*_ " everybody knows. " Now

> your SWIMMING in a sea of NT'ness!

Yup. All my life. Kinda salty, and a bit too acid, for my taste.

>

> Now all we have to do is define the matrix.

It defines itself. Think Zen.

>

> Question:

>

> Communication: When is it _literal_, when is it _figurative_, when does

> it _assume_, what parts are _unnecessary_, and which parts can we

> _forget to describe_ and *still* have reliable communication between

> NT's and AS?

IMHO - it's *utterly* situational, always.

There may be no set of fixed rules to *guarantee* reliable social

communication. NTs haven't found one for use among yourselves!

However there *are* useful approaches which accept some unreliability on

a " first pass " . Then repetition and reformulation leads to increased

reliability. Those are used by the military, marriage counselors,

labor-management people and many others.

My own " formal " approaches to advice, and what has worked for my wife

and me, are based on those approaches.

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

*chuckle chuckle* LOL Try saying that three times in a row fast

>

> You want confusion? Write affect, ineffective with us, in effect

> affecting basic word meaning.

>

[Guest guest]

Shoot! I'm still trying to read it, let alone say it! LOL Jennie

Re: Bias....An AHA Moment?

*chuckle chuckle* LOL Try saying that three times in a row fast > > You want confusion? Write affect, ineffective with us, in effect > affecting basic word meaning.>

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[Guest guest]

Anita wrote:

" Communication: When is it literal, when is it figurative, when does it

assume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to

describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS? "

In this place most AS are at advanced level.You want confusion?

Write affect, ineffective with us, in effect affecting basic word

meaning.

Anita Responds:

Great going Tim! In reading the responses to your line up there, you

have succeeded in confusing even the advanced levels! LOL

Regards,

Anita 55 NT (Whose husband has offered her $20 if she can repeat Tim's

line 5 times fast without messing up.....not sure $20 is enough

incentive...LOL)

[Guest guest]

Jennie...

I repeated myself a few times, just to say it once.. but I enjoy

those kinds of " Saw Seashells by the Seashore " or " Piped

a Peck of Pickled Peppers " type of things.

>

> >

> > You want confusion? Write affect, ineffective with us, in

effect

> > affecting basic word meaning.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1258 - Release Date:

2/4/2008 10:10 AM

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > Communication: When is it literal, when is it figurative, when

does it

> > assume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to

> > describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS?

>

> In this place most AS are at advanced level.

>

> You want confusion? Write affect, ineffective with us, in effect

> affecting basic word meaning.

>

Huh? What? I understood Anita's question very clearly. Tim, your

reply, well, I don't understand it. It doesn't seem to have anything

to do with Anita's question. Are you trying to be humorous? Can you

explain? This confusion is a good thing and may illustrate a bit of

miscommunication between a NT and AS. I often don't understand my AS

husband's responses too. Poor communication is a big problem in our

relationship. I just spent a morning working with him on a project.

I didn't lose too much hair on this one. We managed to get through

it without a fight. Since he has trouble organizing and planning, I

planned and organized the project. This includes explaining to him

why a certain thing needs to be done a certain way. I think this

helped prevent some problems from arising. Verleen

[Guest guest]

Oh my , how can I even talk now! ;-)/  jkz> Sort of germane:> picked up on my use of the word "bias". She gave it the > meaning in common, merely social use, where its common *connotation* > implies malice.> I meant no such thing. In my world, my life, the connotation is > merely "unwanted". Often also it connotes "unconscious", or more simply > "unnoticed".> In science, "bias" may be the degree to which an instrument is "off", > not reading correctly. This may be because, unnoticed, its battery is > old and failing.> The "bias" I meant in my ASPIRES post *rarely* is malicious. It > arises in ordinary conversation from things we believe strongly about, > but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe.> Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in. > Like implied premises we *assume* "everybody knows".> > Like my own unthinking premise: Everybody knows the exact, technical > use of the word, and "of course" will read it the way I meant it.> > - Bill, 75, AS; ...precision is no shield against bias.Precision indeed!  This is it!  It's NT/AS role reversal!   It's what was being discussed in another post about how NT communication changes, so the same thing is said 80 different ways.  This was fascinating because you felt took the word "bias" in its most common usage.  You went on to say the word: bias, has several figurative uses as well.  NT's use figurative speech all the time, which usually drives AS a bit crazy. You say, "things we believe strongly about, but which merely, and innocently, we forget to describe."  Welcome to the NT world!You say, "Like disclaimers we think *surely* are unnecessary and don't add in."  NT communication all the way!You say, "Like implied premises we *assume* "everybody knows."  Now your SWIMMING in a sea of NT'ness!Now all we have to do is define the matrix. Question:  Communication:  When is it literal, when is it figurative, when does itassume, what parts are unnecessary, and which parts can we forget to describe and *still* have reliable communication between NT's and AS?Regards,Anita 55 NT

[Guest guest]

Verleen wrote:

> Huh? What?

Excellent. :-)

I'm not sure I expected anyone to understand, more to take it as amusing.

It's multi-level, playing with words and meanings, but with a point

which is hard to get.

Are you familiar with the psychological term affect and yes it is jargon?

It would do no harm to explain anyway.

Aspies are often stated as having a " flat effect " , fancy language for

seems emotionless, although it is more subtle. The term is used more

generally, not to do with Aspies where for example clinically depressed

tend to get called that too.

Many people write in ways that put affect into the dialog, there is a

secret code of emotion woven into it. The actual words written range

from pertinent, actually has meaning, to precious little to do with the

message in the writing.

This is of course reading between the lines, yet that is not a

particularly accurate meaning because that can also be simply

non-literal, such as dispense with your services. The author does not

want to say what they mean, yet is just a plain statement.

I am useless at giving examples of emotion in language.

It might include you know why we are dispensing with your services Mr

. That is a poor example.

I am told there is emotion in some fiction works, novels and the like.

To me the words might describe a situation, any characters are just

immediate face value. Often the words are so opaque I give up, it drones

on saying nothing. Guess why I rarely read.

So when I wrote " ...in effect affecting basic word meaning. " you can

read that as the foregoing means the direct meaning of the words is

changed by emotion written into the dialog.

basic word meaning == literal words text book meaning

affecting == emotion added

This is a dire situation with AS/NT because many NT tend to both read

and write emotion, whereas AS tend to read and write information, as I

am doing here. This can be so bad there is gross miscommunication.

The following might help or it might not, actually a large and tricky

subject with a lot of contradictory opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_(psychology)

(lovely word in there for really bamboozling people conative)

One of the advantage of written text, to AS, is that NT tend to be

uncomfortable, tends to level the playing field relative to voice or

face to face, you are cut off from non-verbal. (yeah yeah, voice is

non-verbal, okay, non-verbalised communication)

Actually I do fairly well with voice, learnt, so I can usually tell

something even if I am not sure what. The latter is the horrible part,

it might be bad such as this person might be angry or annoyed but trying

to hide it)

I hope that wasn't talking down. Not intended and what do I know anyway.