Greg/faking things/Jekyll and Hyde

[Guest guest]

Thank you Greg and everyone who responded to me. You have all helped me tremendously. May I ask another question? Can people with Aspergers kind of "fake" things? Everyone always thinks my husband is so nice and he makes jokes (though I can tell he's uncomfortable), but at home, he gets so freaked out about things, he punches the wall. I know that he hates to be embarrassed, but he has done some crazy things, like when he got mad at our son, he shoved him up against the wall by his neck because he thought my son was being rude to a little girl and he was embarrassed in front of her parents, but he didn't notice how horrible it was what he did to our son and how others reacted to him.

Sometimes I just think my husband is an abusive person and a sociopath.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

-------------- Original message from Greg Greer : --------------

/Heidi,

I was diagnosed with AS after 29 years of marriage and have now realised how difficult life for my partner was. She basically brought up the kids and initiated any social outings etc while I was focussed primarily on being a provider. I had to learn how to integrate into a work/ career situation and once I had learned the ropes was able to forge a good career, well paid and successful once I followed a technology career in the company. We do not like change and there is a definite lack of awareness. Now that I have some awareness of the problems this caused in my family, it may be too late to rekindle a relationship with my partner and my daughters as they have been so used to me being uninvolved in their lives. Like you, my partner often curtailed her own wants and social needs to look after the kids as she did not trust me to mind them suspecting that I was not responsible enough. The really painful part for me n

ow is that I want to create a better relationship but she does not trust me enough to commit to that when it can all end in the same pain and frustration. Just because I want that now is not going to mean that it can happen. It is really true about the lack of awareness and NTs do not believe we can be so blind to what is going on around us. Like your husband I am seen as kind and helpful at work and for my own sake I need to keep that public persona, while at home I tend to withdraw due to issues I have with emotional things. This leads to people not believing my partner and makes it very frustrating for her. I have been going to counselling on my own, but that is not sufficient as there needs to be a shared journey that both of us want to take in this regard. So it really comes down to how much I can change and be willing to suffer the rejection that confrontation may result in. AS people do not handle conflict very well. This is also a family trait and to make things worse my family have not accepted my partner which means there is no real support base for her. I have been made aware through discussions with my partner that I have never really been in the marriage. So it is not about trying to get back in, it is about trying to change from being outside to inside a relationship that I have never been really an integral part of. Imagine how hard that must be for her to accept. I still need to have time on my own, and that is not conducive to convincing her that I want to have time with her when it is done only on my terms. Hope this provides some worthwhile information.

Greg

dx AS at 53

zoo35511bellsouth (DOT) net Sent by: aspires-relationships 07/11/2007 02:42 AM

Please respond toaspires-relationships

To

aspires-relationships , aspires-relationships

cc

"Heidi Sali on salilab.org" <heidisalilab (DOT) org>

Subject

Jekyll and Hyde behavior of my husband

My husband, who I think has AS, has worked at the same job for 14 years. He manages about 20 people in a printing company. At home, he is so difficult and show a lot of AS characteristics. My husband's doctor thinks he can't possibly have AS because he does well at work. Does anyone have any experience with this? It seems my husband kind of "fakes" things with others and at work, he is the boss, so it's pretty cut and dry about how to act, but at home, with family and children, it's much more varied. I would appreciate any advice or experiences you all might have! Thanks,

[Guest guest]

zoo35511@... wrote:

> Thank you Greg and everyone who responded to me. You have all helped me

> tremendously. May I ask another question? Can people with Aspergers kind

> of " fake " things?

Can, yes. But usually don't. AS behavior at work is " real " . AS

behavior " at home " is just as " real " . Jekyll and Hyde -- both REAL, not

acting.

This is the _classic_ problem with NT/AS marriages.

> Everyone always thinks my husband is so nice and he

> makes jokes (though I can tell he's uncomfortable), but at home, he gets

> so freaked out about things, he punches the wall. I know that he hates

> to be embarrassed, but he has done some crazy things, like when he got

> mad at our son, he shoved him up against the wall by his neck because he

> thought my son was being rude to a little girl and he was embarrassed in

> front of her parents, but he didn't notice how horrible it was what he

> did to our son and how others reacted to him.

>

> Sometimes I just think my husband is an abusive person and a sociopath.

Too many marriages have that hidden component. The majority don't

involve AS.

Yours may be one, *without* invoking AS as a cause. Some males are

just thoughtless, uncaring a**holes.

In any case: Violence, ANY abuse, just _IS NOT ACCEPTABLE_ behavior,

whatever its origin. And AS _is not_ an acceptable excuse.

[ snip ]

> ---- Original message from Greg Greer : ----

> /Heidi,

> I was diagnosed with AS after 29 years of marriage and have now

> realised how difficult life for my partner was.

[ snip ]

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

>In any case: Violence, ANY abuse, just _IS NOT >ACCEPTABLE_ behavior, >whatever its origin. And AS _is not_ an acceptable >excuse.

I AGREE!! Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

I hope Beth does not mind my sharing this post from a few months ago... It was very enlightening to me and perhaps others out there will find it so as well.  Janet ZEEIn his Complete Guide book, Tony Attwood talks about the 4 main styles of managing socially with Asperger's. My partner primarily manages by the "imitation" way. He is so remarkable at this skill, that, as Tony Attwood puts it, some people would not immediately see any signs that internally, Dave's understanding of the intentions and emotions behind the behaviors, is different and sometimes just not even there.  Dave's skill invoves the same aspects that Ron describes are involved in being a technical actor. It involves studying people's faces, body language, tone of voice, and assuming the very same mannerisms/characteristics if he (Dave) has determined that these mannerisms or behaviors are best suited to the given social situation. Dave has a gift this way, and also, can be very funny if he decides to do a voice or character for the kids. Socially, taking on the observed face, body language, tone of voice, etc., of others can leave people feeling remarkably "understood" by Dave, whereas Dave explains to me he doesn't understand them much at all. Dave's lack of understanding people internally, became apparent to me only after spending so much time with him and being by his side at many different social (musical -- he and I are both musicians) events. (Dave wouldn't be at a "social" event unless there was a more significant agenda which he felt duty-bound to participate in, such as contributing to live music). Many people would be shocked to learn that he not only doesn't understand people's innerworkings much at all, he doesn't care to. This feeling for people, of being "understood" by Dave (when he actually doesn't understand), can happen especially if Dave is using one of his most significant skills, which is to reflect back to people what they themselves are doing (if they are behaving very enthusiastically, then he is too, if they are behaving very concerned about something, he is too, very sadly -- as long as this is a very quiet and short-lived very sad --, then he too, etc.) I think for the most part, he noticed that for whatever the reasons internally, people responded quite favourably to having their own manners/concerns/etc., mirrored back them. So this became one of Dave's main tools for managing socially. However, without his understanding of the deeper implications in his "mirroring" of others, it can become problematic if people spend enough time with him, because "his" interests, allegiances, and values appear to be constantly changing. What he is doing, is trying to control the intensity of emotions around him (keeping people happy, and therefore he hopes, calm, as he can't stand intense expression of human emotions). People do not know that he is not at all necessarily representing his own internal thoughts and feelings, opinions. While they think they are busy "learning" about his social likes, dislikes, passions, etc. during these exchanges with him, (because socially, this matters to NT's in terms of establishing friendship, connection, etc.), he is doing something completely different, unbeknownst to them.  For me, it can be frustrating and hurtful (much more so, pre AS awareness) when, being a very gentle looking attractive man, both women and men will occasionally flash him not just a lovely smile, but a special "I find you attractive" smile, and without reading what is behind this special smile (a very subtle "cue" about finding him attractive, which is watching for a subtle response in him), he simply mirrors back to them the same type of smile. This inadvertently sends the message back to them "I find you attractive too!!". (And yet most humans just aren't that attractive to him). He is aiming to please thereby controlling the emotional intensity in his environment when he mirrors "positive" emotions. He so often misses the subtleties in the social cues that are emotionally motivated by others. When he does this with the "I find you attractive" smiles by inadvertently sending back the message "I find you attractive too!", the NT's sending these smiles may go so far as to interpret this to mean that he is not completely happily partnered, or that he is flirtateous (albeit in the most impressive "boy next door" polite manner)! This can later become mystifying when Dave has to wholely "drop out" and go "flat"-- completely withdrawing for a moment or much longer in the same situations. The same relationship oriented NT's might try to link Dave's two behaviors inaccurately (as they have already misinterpretted his "mirroring" behaviors). They don't know that it is simply that the acting/mirroring has simply fallen away as he has become exhausted or just had a "blip" on his AS screen. They may have thoughts such as "oh the poor sweet heart" (remember, handsome, angelic faced), "he is so giving, and well mannered, and charming, and yet something has happened to him. Something must be terribly wrong. Perhaps he is not happy (drum roll please..............) in his relationship!?"  As an NT, who is also very relationship oriented and unusually self disclosing and driven to honesty, (which is ironically why Dave finds me to be so potentially good for him -- as he puts it, I am "so real"), I am having to come to terms with the following likelihood: That Dave will to most people, remain mysterious, and in turn, our "coupleness" will also remain mysterious. If I am to self disclose, I will need to navigate carefully around how Dave and I "work", and how Dave really "works", unless Dave decides to share openly about his AS. Of course, this raises a very compelling question to me, which is: Who would want to know that Dave really doesn't care about them the way in which they thought he did? (Not that he doesn't care at all -- it is just different). Any feedback, or further conversation on the topic of mirroring, imitation as coping strategies would be great. I may have sounded pretty analytical, but my heart has often been involved (concerned, hurt), in situations with Dave regarding his mirroring/imitation coping strategies. Sincerely,Beth.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Thank you Greg and everyone who responded to me. You have all helped me tremendously. May I ask another question? Can people with Aspergers kind of "fake" things? Everyone always thinks my husband is so nice and he makes jokes (though I can tell he's uncomfortable), but at home, he gets so freaked out about things, he punches the wall. I know that he hates to be embarrassed, but he has done some crazy things, like when he got mad at our son, he shoved him up against the wall by his neck because he thought my son was being rude to a little girl and he was embarrassed in front of her parents, but he didn't notice how horrible it was what he did to our son and how others reacted to him. Sometimes I just think my husband is an abusive person and a sociopath. Thanks for sharing your experiences.   -------------- Original message from Greg Greer <ggreer@....com>: --------------  /Heidi,I was diagnosed with AS after 29 years of marriage and have now realised how difficult life for my partner was.  She basically brought up the kids and initiated any social outings etc while I was focussed primarily on being a provider.  I had to learn how to integrate into a work/ career situation and once I had learned the ropes was able to forge a good career, well paid and successful once I followed a technology career in the company.  We do not like change and there is a definite lack of awareness.  Now that I have some awareness of the problems this caused in my family, it may be too late to rekindle a relationship with my partner and my daughters as they have been so used to me being uninvolved in their lives.  Like you, my partner often curtailed her own wants and social needs to look after the kids as she did not trust me to mind them suspecting that I was not responsible enough.  The really painful part for me n ow is that I want to create a better relationship but she does not trust me enough to commit to that when it can all end in the same pain and frustration.  Just because I want that now is not going to mean that it can happen.  It is really true about the lack of awareness and NTs do not believe we can be so blind to what is going on around us.  Like your husband I am seen as kind and helpful at work and for my own sake I need to keep that public persona, while at home I tend to withdraw due to issues I have with emotional things.  This leads to people not believing my partner and makes it very frustrating for her.I have been going to counselling on my own, but that is not sufficient as there needs to be a shared journey that both of us want to take in this regard.  So it really comes down to how much I can change and be willing to suffer the rejection that confrontation may result in.  AS people do not handle conflict very well.  This is also a family trait and to make things worse my family have not accepted my partner which means there is no real support base for her.I have been made aware through discussions with my partner that I have never really been in the marriage.  So it is not about trying to get back in, it is about trying to change from being outside to inside a relationship that I have never been really an integral part of.  Imagine how hard that must be for her to accept.  I still need to have time on my own, and that is not conducive to convincing her that I want to have time with her when it is done only on my terms.Hope this provides some worthwhile information.Gregdx AS at 53zoo35511bellsouth (DOT) net Sent by: aspires-relationships 07/11/2007 02:42 AMPlease respond toaspires-relationships Toaspires-relationships , aspires-relationships cc"Heidi Sali on salilab.org" <heidisalilab (DOT) org>Subject Jekyll and Hyde behavior of my husbandMy husband, who I think has AS, has worked at the same job for 14 years. He manages about 20 people in a printing company. At home, he is so difficult and show a lot of AS characteristics. My husband's doctor thinks he can't possibly have AS because he does well at work. Does anyone have any experience with this? It seems my husband kind of "fakes" things with others and at work, he is the boss, so it's pretty cut and dry about how to act, but at home, with family and children, it's much more varied.   I would appreciate any advice or experiences you all might have!   Thanks,  

[Guest guest]

I'm leaving Beth's stuff completely intact, not my usual practice of

" snipping " excess material. It *can't be* re-read too often!

The description of AS Dave, and how he " does it " socially, is as good as

anything I've ever read on the subject. Attwood himself doesn't measure

up to Beth and *her* summary.

It describes *me* too (better than I have); and I'll bet every AS on

this List will recognize themselves.

It should be required reading for List newbies; NTs especially.

Good Stuff, Beth!

- Bill, 75, AS; ...'chameleon' who identifies 100%!

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

> I hope Beth does not mind my sharing this post from a few months ago...

> It was very enlightening to me and perhaps others out there will find it

> so as well. Janet ZEE

>

Beth had written much earlier:

>

> In his Complete Guide book, Tony Attwood talks about the 4 main styles

> of managing socially with Asperger's. My partner primarily manages by

> the " imitation " way. He is so remarkable at this skill, that, as Tony

> Attwood puts it, some people would not immediately see any signs that

> internally, Dave's understanding of the intentions and emotions behind

> the behaviors, is different and sometimes just not even there.

>

> Dave's skill invoves the same aspects that Ron describes are involved in

> being a technical actor. It involves studying people's faces, body

> language, tone of voice, and assuming the very same

> mannerisms/characteristics if he (Dave) has determined that these

> mannerisms or behaviors are best suited to the given social situation.

> Dave has a gift this way, and also, can be very funny if he decides to

> do a voice or character for the kids.

>

> Socially, taking on the observed face, body language, tone of voice,

> etc., of others can leave people feeling remarkably " understood " by

> Dave, whereas Dave explains to me he doesn't understand them much at

> all. Dave's lack of understanding people internally, became apparent to

> me only after spending so much time with him and being by his side

> at many different social (musical -- he and I are both musicians)

> events. (Dave wouldn't be at a " social " event unless there was a more

> significant agenda which he felt duty-bound to participate in, such as

> contributing to live music). Many people would be shocked to learn that

> he not only doesn't understand people's innerworkings much at all, /he

> doesn't care to./

>

> This feeling for people, of being " understood " by Dave (when he actually

> doesn't understand), can happen especially if Dave is using one of his

> most significant skills, which is to reflect back to people what they

> themselves are doing (if they are behaving very enthusiastically, then

> he is too, if they are behaving very concerned about something, he is

> too, very sadly -- as long as this is a very quiet and short-lived very

> sad --, then he too, etc.) I think for the most part, he noticed that

> for whatever the reasons internally, people responded quite favourably

> to having their own manners/concerns/etc., mirrored back them. So this

> became one of Dave's main tools for managing socially. However, without

> his understanding of the deeper implications in his " mirroring " of

> others, it can become problematic if people spend enough time with him,

> because " his " interests, allegiances, and values appear to be constantly

> changing. What he is doing, is trying to control the intensity of

> emotions around him (keeping people happy, and therefore he hopes, calm,

> as he can't stand intense expression of human emotions). People do not

> know that he is not at all necessarily representing his /own/ internal

> thoughts and feelings, opinions. While they think they are busy

> " learning " about his social likes, dislikes, passions, etc. during these

> exchanges with him, (because socially, this matters to NT's in terms of

> establishing friendship, connection, etc.), he is doing something

> completely different, unbeknownst to them.

>

> For me, it can be frustrating and hurtful (much more so, pre AS

> awareness) when, being a very gentle looking attractive man, both women

> and men will occasionally flash him not just a lovely smile, but

> a special " I find you attractive " smile, and without reading what is

> behind this special smile (a very subtle " cue " about finding him

> attractive, which is watching for a subtle response in him), he simply

> mirrors back to them the same type of smile. This inadvertently sends

> the message back to them " I find you attractive too!! " . (And yet most

> humans just aren't that attractive to him). He is aiming to /please/

> thereby controlling the emotional intensity in his environment when he

> mirrors " positive " emotions.

>

> He so often misses the subtleties in the social cues that are

> emotionally motivated by others. When he does this with the " I find you

> attractive " smiles by inadvertently sending back the message " I find you

> attractive too! " , the NT's sending these smiles may go so far as to

> interpret this to mean that he is not completely happily partnered, or

> that he is flirtateous (albeit in the most impressive " boy next door "

> polite manner)! This can later become mystifying when Dave has to

> wholely " drop out " and go " flat " -- completely withdrawing for a moment

> or much longer in the same situations. The same relationship oriented

> NT's might try to link Dave's two behaviors inaccurately (as they have

> already misinterpretted his " mirroring " behaviors). They don't know that

> it is simply that the acting/mirroring has simply fallen away as he has

> become exhausted or just had a " blip " on his AS screen. They may have

> thoughts such as " oh the poor sweet heart " (remember, handsome, angelic

> faced), " he is so giving, and well mannered, and charming, and

> yet something has happened to him. Something must be terribly wrong.

> Perhaps he is not happy (drum roll please..............) in his

> /relationship/!? "

>

> As an NT, who is also very relationship oriented and unusually self

> disclosing and driven to honesty, (which is ironically why Dave finds me

> to be so potentially good for him -- as he puts it, I am " so real " ), I

> am having to come to terms with the following likelihood: That Dave will

> to most people, remain mysterious, and in turn, our " coupleness " will

> also remain mysterious. If I am to self disclose, I will need to

> navigate carefully around how Dave and I " work " , and how Dave really

> " works " , unless Dave decides to share openly about his AS. Of course,

> this raises a very compelling question to me, which is: Who would want

> to know that Dave really doesn't care about them the way in which they

> /thought/ he did? (Not that he doesn't care at all -- it is just different).

>

> Any feedback, or further conversation on the topic of mirroring,

> imitation as coping strategies would be great.

>

> I may have sounded pretty analytical, but my heart has often been

> involved (concerned, hurt), in situations with Dave regarding

> his mirroring/imitation coping strategies.

>

> Sincerely,

> Beth.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Bill, I won't snip either-- for clarity. I believe, after reading the other letter about Beth's Dave, that I have never had the ability to do that if I wanted. I have difficulty reading facial emotion, though I am better with interpreting tone of voice. I hope that nobody takes offense-- but I would completely give up, in any social situation that required me to act that way, as a result. ToM is much easier for me than trying to read complex facial emotions, at least at present. I doubt i am likely to fool anyone. , ASWD Loughman wrote: I'm leaving Beth's stuff completely intact, not my usual practice of "snipping" excess material. It *can't be* re-read too often!The description of AS Dave, and how he "does it" socially, is as good as anything I've ever read on the subject. Attwood himself doesn't measure up to Beth and *her* summary.It describes *me* too (better than I have); and I'll bet every AS on this List will recognize themselves.It should be required reading for List newbies; NTs especially.Good Stuff, Beth!- Bill, 75, AS; ...'chameleon' who identifies 100%!Janet Zimmerman wrote:> I hope Beth does not mind my sharing this post from a few months ago... > It was very enlightening to me and perhaps others out there will find it > so as well. Janet ZEE>Beth had written much

earlier:> > In his Complete Guide book, Tony Attwood talks about the 4 main styles > of managing socially with Asperger's. My partner primarily manages by > the "imitation" way. He is so remarkable at this skill, that, as Tony > Attwood puts it, some people would not immediately see any signs that > internally, Dave's understanding of the intentions and emotions behind > the behaviors, is different and sometimes just not even there. > > Dave's skill invoves the same aspects that Ron describes are involved in > being a technical actor. It involves studying people's faces, body > language, tone of voice, and assuming the very same > mannerisms/characteristics if he (Dave) has determined that these > mannerisms or behaviors are best suited to the given social situation. > Dave has a gift this way, and also, can be very funny if he decides to > do a voice or character

for the kids.> > Socially, taking on the observed face, body language, tone of voice, > etc., of others can leave people feeling remarkably "understood" by > Dave, whereas Dave explains to me he doesn't understand them much at > all. Dave's lack of understanding people internally, became apparent to > me only after spending so much time with him and being by his side > at many different social (musical -- he and I are both musicians) > events. (Dave wouldn't be at a "social" event unless there was a more > significant agenda which he felt duty-bound to participate in, such as > contributing to live music). Many people would be shocked to learn that > he not only doesn't understand people's innerworkings much at all, /he > doesn't care to./> > This feeling for people, of being "understood" by Dave (when he actually > doesn't understand), can happen especially if Dave is

using one of his > most significant skills, which is to reflect back to people what they > themselves are doing (if they are behaving very enthusiastically, then > he is too, if they are behaving very concerned about something, he is > too, very sadly -- as long as this is a very quiet and short-lived very > sad --, then he too, etc.) I think for the most part, he noticed that > for whatever the reasons internally, people responded quite favourably > to having their own manners/concerns/etc., mirrored back them. So this > became one of Dave's main tools for managing socially. However, without > his understanding of the deeper implications in his "mirroring" of > others, it can become problematic if people spend enough time with him, > because "his" interests, allegiances, and values appear to be constantly > changing. What he is doing, is trying to control the intensity of >

emotions around him (keeping people happy, and therefore he hopes, calm, > as he can't stand intense expression of human emotions). People do not > know that he is not at all necessarily representing his /own/ internal > thoughts and feelings, opinions. While they think they are busy > "learning" about his social likes, dislikes, passions, etc. during these > exchanges with him, (because socially, this matters to NT's in terms of > establishing friendship, connection, etc.), he is doing something > completely different, unbeknownst to them. > > For me, it can be frustrating and hurtful (much more so, pre AS > awareness) when, being a very gentle looking attractive man, both women > and men will occasionally flash him not just a lovely smile, but > a special "I find you attractive" smile, and without reading what is > behind this special smile (a very subtle "cue" about finding him

> attractive, which is watching for a subtle response in him), he simply > mirrors back to them the same type of smile. This inadvertently sends > the message back to them "I find you attractive too!!". (And yet most > humans just aren't that attractive to him). He is aiming to /please/ > thereby controlling the emotional intensity in his environment when he > mirrors "positive" emotions.> > He so often misses the subtleties in the social cues that are > emotionally motivated by others. When he does this with the "I find you > attractive" smiles by inadvertently sending back the message "I find you > attractive too!", the NT's sending these smiles may go so far as to > interpret this to mean that he is not completely happily partnered, or > that he is flirtateous (albeit in the most impressive "boy next door" > polite manner)! This can later become mystifying when Dave has to

> wholely "drop out" and go "flat"-- completely withdrawing for a moment > or much longer in the same situations. The same relationship oriented > NT's might try to link Dave's two behaviors inaccurately (as they have > already misinterpretted his "mirroring" behaviors). They don't know that > it is simply that the acting/mirroring has simply fallen away as he has > become exhausted or just had a "blip" on his AS screen. They may have > thoughts such as "oh the poor sweet heart" (remember, handsome, angelic > faced), "he is so giving, and well mannered, and charming, and > yet something has happened to him. Something must be terribly wrong. > Perhaps he is not happy (drum roll please..............) in his > /relationship/!?" > > As an NT, who is also very relationship oriented and unusually self > disclosing and driven to honesty, (which is ironically why Dave finds

me > to be so potentially good for him -- as he puts it, I am "so real"), I > am having to come to terms with the following likelihood: That Dave will > to most people, remain mysterious, and in turn, our "coupleness" will > also remain mysterious. If I am to self disclose, I will need to > navigate carefully around how Dave and I "work", and how Dave really > "works", unless Dave decides to share openly about his AS. Of course, > this raises a very compelling question to me, which is: Who would want > to know that Dave really doesn't care about them the way in which they > /thought/ he did? (Not that he doesn't care at all -- it is just different).> > Any feedback, or further conversation on the topic of mirroring, > imitation as coping strategies would be great.> > I may have sounded pretty analytical, but my heart has often been > involved (concerned, hurt), in

situations with Dave regarding > his mirroring/imitation coping strategies.> > Sincerely,> Beth.> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~- Bill, 75, AS-- WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USAhttp://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>>I believe, after reading the other letter about Beth's Dave, that I have never had the ability to do that if I wanted. I have difficulty reading facial emotion, though I am better with interpreting tone of voice. I hope that nobody takes offense-- but I would completely give up, in any social situation that required me to act that way, as a result. ToM is much easier for me than trying to read complex facial emotions, at least at present. I doubt i am likely to fool anyone.

, AS<<

, Actually if you were born being able to do this you would just do it as the available coping mechanism. It wouldn't occur to you that there are other options. It only occurred to me when I was much older. As a teen I went through a period of severe depression because I was aware enough to know that no one really knew who I was, therefore they weren't really accepting ME but everytime I tried to be ME I was no longer acceptable. I was not aware enough to work through all that and figure out what to do so I became extremely depressed. I became virtually non responsive to life. No one noticed.

It wasn't until a few years later in life that I began to work through realizing that I needed to treat each person as an individual and try to find some folks that were willing to accept me in all my 'weirdness'. I haven't found many, but then again I'm not to very old yet so I have hopes that as life goes on I might find more. I have found I am reasonably good at facial and voice tones but I am not so good at filtering out what people want me to know, versus what they do not want me to know but are showing anyway. This gets me in trouble.

Jennie AS -not offended BTW!

[Guest guest]

Jennie, I accept you as you are! If I ever meet you face to face, and need to know what you are thinking, I will be bold enough to ask-- I ask about all kinds of things I am not sure of (that can get ME into trouble at times-- smile). I finally realized just last week why my NT friends think I am too analytical about feelings- I use ToM to correct for the fact that I cannot read emotion from a face very well (my dad thinks there are ways I can compensate, and learn to read faces a bit- I think he is still in denial about my being AS, but anyway, it is a great idea- I hope he is right!). Like you, I often cannot get the things I am supposed to know separated from the things I know but am not supposed to know- and have gotten into social "hot water" that way, too. Tone of voice is not too hard, most of the time- but sometimes, I pick up that someone is offended, and do not know why at all-- or even if it

has to do with me. Like you, I had the experience, growing up, that a lot of people did not accept me- but in my case, they knew that they did not, because I could not hide very much. Now, I seek people who have a realness about them, wherever I find them. I have learned to disclose a little bit to my friends, to make it easier for them to give me the clues I need. When my friend told me that I seemed analytical about people's feelings, I confessed that I could not read emotions from a face very well- and that answered it for her completely! I was relieved at how accepting she has been. Other friends I have told have taken to reaching out and squeezing my shoulder lightly in addition to looking kindly at me, because they want to make sure that I get the message that they are glad to see me, and want me to feel their warmth-- and they know that eyes alone may not convey it. they are really trying to accept

me, and I feel great about that, because it means that in their innermost beings, they would like me to be accepted by them. And, I try to accept other people, even if they do not know me or accept who I am (I often do not tell people much till I am sure, anyway)-- and that helps me feel better, because it makes me feel that I can learn of them, and that it will work for good in a way. Before I accepted being AS this last summer, I rarely tried to learn of other people's feelings, unless I knew them well- I am still awkward. Jennie Unknown wrote: , AS<< , Actually if you were born being able to do this you would just do it as the available coping mechanism. It wouldn't occur to you that there are other options. It only occurred to me when I was much older. As a teen I went through a period of severe depression because I was aware enough to know that no one really knew who I was, therefore they weren't really accepting ME but everytime I tried to be ME I was no longer acceptable. I was not aware enough to work through all that and figure out what to do so I became extremely depressed. I became virtually non responsive to life. No one noticed. It wasn't until a few years later in life that I began to

work through realizing that I needed to treat each person as an individual and try to find some folks that were willing to accept me in all my 'weirdness'. I haven't found many, but then again I'm not to very old yet so I have hopes that as life goes on I might find more. I have found I am reasonably good at facial and voice tones but I am not so good at filtering out what people want me to know, versus what they do not want me to know but are showing anyway. This gets me in trouble. Jennie AS -not offended BTW! __________________________________________________