Re: Re: Is it AS or Isn't It? My Husband Has a Few Words

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote:

> WD Loughman wrote:

> > srabande wrote:

> > > Anita Wrote:

> > ... a big angry bunch. { snipped here, for brevity only ]

>

> You read way too much into my words Bill, I am not angry at all.

That's what my wife sometimes says, breathing heavily and obviously

barely containing herself.

Almost, obviously not quite, ...I very nearly didn't answer this. You

and I don't have the same " chemistry " ; our exchanges are not my idea of

fun. Maybe not yours either.

One last stab at it (After 2-3 times glancing at the <delete> key).

>

> Anita: I learned here that comparing NT to AS is WRONGheaded.

>

> Bill: If you mean *equating* NT to AS is wrong-headed -- you're absolutely

> RIGHT, and I AGREE. If you mean " making comparisons of NT to AS, to

> understand differences "

> is wrong-headed, I couldn't DISAGREE more. "

>

> Right now, Bill...in our lives there must be a hierarchy of what must

> come first before anything else. I believe my husband and I have

> understood there are differences for a very long time. Those

> differences just didn't have a name, we didn't know it was neurological

> and we didn't know there was set of characteristics that go with that

> name. Now we do. The irony to the whole thing is, I'm not trying to

> figure out what NT is, my husband isn't trying to figure out what NT

> is...we are both trying to figure out what AS is. This list is

> fabulous for learning about AS! I understand it more, and he reads and

> nods and nods .........and the other day with Ron's post on sexuality he

> actually jumped up and yelled, " that's it! " I've never seen him THAT

> animated! :-)

In the end, it's what works for both of you.

>

> Neither my husband nor myself find any comfort in making comparisons to

> understand differences. We now view that sort of thing as a distraction

> from the most important thing of all at this time. ACCEPTANCE of AS.

> It means me not comparing him to NT in my mind every time he does

> something and it means him not feeling bad because he didn't do

> something like an NT would have done it and making comparisons like

> that. The whole thing is unproductive. We understand we're

> different, Bill. That's why we've been miserable.

I spent decades " understanding " I was different. I was " miserable "

because I didn't understand HOW, or most importantly WHY. And nobody I

knew could tell me.

I got the answers myself by close (Close!) observation of a control

group. Even in high-school I knew to do that. My classmates and

teachers were the control group (although NT, AS, and all the other

alphabet soup hadn't been invented yet). Then I began to see what the

differences really were. And they weren't what I thought.

I'd been told so many things... Only one was true. That *may* have

something to do with what your husband calls " stuff " in his head.

>

> At this moment it is imperative that I give him a safe place to be AS

> and that we both work very hard for him to be AS in that space. We want

> to see if he feels less of a need to apply maladaptive behavior if he is

> free to be AS. He is unsure and I am unsure, but we will give it a

> shot. One thing at a time, one stage at a time, one breath at a time.

> The goal is to embrace AS.

Excellent goal!

I would wonder, I have wondered, here: What *is* it you think AS

_is_? Does he, in his most private thoughts, think the same?

If there is behavior either of you, or both, of you *feel* is peculiar

to AS (but in fact it isn't)... Wouldn't you think it a distraction and

a waste of energy to try correcting it?

IF it were actually a very commonplace behavior among men in general?

Had nothing to do with AS? [but do see my 1st Commandment, below]

This is the essence of coping with AS - whether it's you or him.

Understanding what's *real*, what *AS* brings to the table, is

important. Own *that*, and you " own " AS.

But coping with anything and everything that *BUGS* either of you, AS or

not, is very important too. It's where we, my wife and I, started.

*My* First Commandment was " Thou Shalt Not Bug Thy Wife. "

Turned out a huge proportion of those things had nothing to do AS, and

she recognized that (because she knew what AS was, and wasn't). On the

other hand, most of them were easy for me to " fix " , once I understood

what they were - so I did.

Before very long, she was " fixing " things too. Within a few months we'd

gotten into the habit of discussing matters that somehow over the years

had become taboo: Dangerous territory, disputed territory, and a

guaranteed fight.

Or more commonly with me a *HUGE* days-long sulk. That'll tear a

relationship apart, and it was. So I stopped that as well.

Whatever anyone else may tell you, AS **can** change!!

[ Non-speaking autists can change; think T. Grandin. Kim Peak has

developed a genuine, even puckish, sense of humor _Certainly_ mere

Aspergians can change? ]

Out of *that* (discussing taboos) came two Rules of Engagement:

Don't fire the first shot in any argument, and

Don't fire back when fired upon.

[A bunch of this stuff already is in the ASPIRES archives.]

This all was about regaining the trust, even love, we'd once had -

thirty-odd years earlier. *Nothing* in there about AS, ...yet.

The single Commandment and two Rules are the only things we needed for a

long time. We understood what might be AS, and what likely, or

certainly, was not.

This understanding informed our earliest approaches to one another,

and set the stage for harder issues to come.

But our lives had improved so-o-o-o much, in only a few months. It was

during that time my wife began to sing again - a lovely voice I'd not

heard in decades. This was working, and we both knew it.

[There's a lot more to this story. Not tonight; maybe not even soon.

But perhaps you can see where this was going, ...where it went?]

>

> He read your post, he's standing next to me, he asked me to type this

> for him:

>

> " I didn't want to read about how NT males can be just like me in the

> bedroom. It implies that NT/NT sex can be like NT/AS sex and that NT

> women end up in the same boat even though they are with NT. I envy NT

> men because even though they might not want to change something, they

> have the ability to change it and they can know the way to change it

> because of an explanation. NT males don't have all that " stuff " in

> their heads that I have and that's why it's not a comparison.

Believe me! Every AS on this List, male and female alike, knows about

" stuff " in our heads. You're not completely unique. You're not

completely alone either.

> It's

> better to compare AS males to AS males in how they are in the bedroom.

You'll find as wide an array of problems, and successes, among AS as

among NT. The " solutions " almost always are nearly the same.

The AS on this List aren't nearly so alike as you both seem to

believe. Of the 4-5 vocal male AS hereon, I'd wager you couldn't get

much of a consensus on any but the most narrowly conceived issues.

For example: If I compare my personal *intimate* experiences with what

Ron reveals of his, I see we have almost nothing in common. If we were

to contrast our *behaviors* to our respective wives; again not so much

in common. Some similarities; but some very big differences.

On generalization, as was posted hereon several times:

" If you've met one aspie, ...well, ...you've met one aspie. "

Be careful what you think you learn when you pry open an AS.

> This way I can understand if it is possible for me to have sexual

> relations in a better way because it's comparing apples to apples. I

> don't want to be compared to NT men who don't have all of the things

> Ron said, lack of coordination, deciding where to put a hand at the same

> time as a leg or whatever. That's me! NT men don't get confused in bed,

> I get confused and lost in a million thoughts, I do that because I am

> AS.

I too have " a million thoughts " - my damn' head *never* shuts off -

likely because I'm AS.

But I learned to control it, to disallow it controlling me. To

compartmentalize, to submerge some thoughts and emphasize others. I

*had* to do that, couldn't afford not to, so I did it. It's training.

> If NT men are getting the same result I am, it has nothing to do

> with me or AS. I can't learn anything from comparing myself to an NT

> man who has the chance to just think about something and just change

> it. I might never get the chance to change it because I don't feel

> it. I'd much rather hear from the AS men about whether they have been

> able to have better sex lives in spite of AS and how they did it because

> maybe I can learn something. "

*Better* sex life? " In spite of " ? I'm AS, and I've not had a bad one.

Not because of AS, nor in spite of it. But because I learned what

" real men " know, " what women want " . That all was a slow *learning*

process - the same process NTs go through, but later in life. My wife's

responses were gratifying; I'll stop right there.

In the end I *owned* the capacities, the skills. No pretending, no

acting; it's a *skill* like any other, and can be learned.

What many men don't know: The *real* intimate skills are in the

head. They can be learned as well.

God knows I'm no stud. I've had bad days. But *my* wife's complaints

aren't what you read on this List. We're both grateful.

>

> There you have it Bill. Not my words, my husbands. He wrinkled up his

> forehead reading your post too.

Yes, forehead-wrinkling. Ominous sign that, usually; ...lost my reader.

I don't have to continue any of this. Not a problem.

- Bill, 75, AS; Yes, still er, ...active; but uh, ...slower.

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Just a few thoughts....

I found it very liberating to learn that many of my 'issues' were actually the issues of ALL women not just my AS. It made me feel like maybe I'm not such a freak after all.

If being AS means everything goes through the screen of AS thinking then we should all be the same. Being a male AS should be the same as being a female AS. In which case my words should be just as relevant as those of the male AS. I think it's been pretty clear even on this list, let alone research, that there are differences between the sexes, even when we are AS. Then we have also the differences created by environment and personality. Each person needs to get to know themself and how AS affects them personally. There have been times I have doubted my diagnosis just because I am so different from many others with AS. But the fact is... I am diagnosed. I am AS.

I found it necessary to know what parts of me are NT and which are AS. I wanted to know if what I want from my husband was an unreasonable thing based in AS thinking or if what I wanted was a typical desire of most women. If it was typical then it would seem reasonable to expect some movement on his part. If it was AS then it would seem reasonable for ME to change and/or adapt and/or HELP him to know how to get around my issues.

I grew up knowing I was different. More than that... I was completely convinced that I was crazy and that I needed to hide who I was or people would think I needed locked up. That is a burden I carried as a teen. Later in life I found out about AS and I instantly recognized myself. It was such a relief to know I was not 'crazy' just different. Once I knew what I was dealing with it empowered me to filter through my thoughts, problems, issues, etc and determine which were a result of AS and which were just normal. That in turn showed me what I needed to work on and what could be left alone. I can't imagine thinking that every last part of me is essentially 'broken'. I found great encourgement in knowing:

1. what was 'ok' (acceptable to the world) and

2. what was not acceptable to the world but was acceptable to me, and

3. what was not acceptable to the world or to me.

The last are the things I chose to work on. The second are the things that I just don't endulge openly in front of people with no understanding. And the first are the things I knew I could fall back on without fear of people going through the roof at me.

Finding out about AS released me from so much uncertainty and so much mess. I was now able to look at what I was thinking and tell myself... 'thats AS thinking shut it down' or 'people don't want to hear about that'. It was not necessary that I understand WHY people don't want to know the details of history which in my opinion gives us a more truthful understanding of the present. It is enough to know that people don't want to know. I was able to figure out what exactly people expect. What are the expectations of normalacy. This has rung true in my sex life as well. It was imparitive that I define 'normal' behavior. Both for myself AND my husband. I found some things about me were just typical female. That told me not that I was hopeless, but that like every other female on the planet I could deal with this thing. In fact I would go so far as to say that in some cases my ASness gave me the ability to more thoroughly deal with some of my normal negative female traits than is typical of most women.

Anyway... Maybe this will be of help to someone out there.

Jennie - not crazy - AS

[Guest guest]

jenny i think this is what Bill was getting at in his recent posts. Knowing where AS ends and non AS begins, Bill is self aware and knows this distinction, i think Anita and anitas husbands are having a lot of "a-haaaa" moments and anything that APPEARS to buck thier current thinking is met with rejection. to clarify...yes Anita everything about your AS husbands 61 years of maladaptive behaviour is "him", what bill is saying, is, in time, the next step of the process is when you differentiate between what is AS and what is non AS behaviour then you are getting toward what jenny has written about, self limiting behaviour and adaptations to AS. or "knowing the difference" knowing when to help your husband to adapt, and knowing when he is just being a selfish jerk hiding behind an AS label. At the moment he is ALL AS. in time , and what i think bill is getting at is, there is AS behaviour and then there is typical

male behaviour that some with AS can get away with and hide behind the "disability" just as you need to help your husband to adapt to what he needs help on, you also need to not let him "fall" into just being a "jerk" 36 m diagnosed AS who has learned as much as Bill has forgotten.Jennie Unknown wrote: Just a few thoughts.... I found it very liberating to

learn that many of my 'issues' were actually the issues of ALL women not just my AS. It made me feel like maybe I'm not such a freak after all. If being AS means everything goes through the screen of AS thinking then we should all be the same. Being a male AS should be the same as being a female AS. In which case my words should be just as relevant as those of the male AS. I think it's been pretty clear even on this list, let alone research, that there are differences between the sexes, even when we are AS. Then we have also the differences created by environment and personality. Each person needs to get to know themself and how AS affects them personally. There have been times I have doubted my diagnosis just because I am so different from many others with AS. But the fact is... I am diagnosed. I am AS. I found it necessary to know what parts of me are NT and which are AS. I wanted to know if what I want from my husband was an unreasonable thing based in AS thinking or if what I wanted was a typical desire of most women. If it was typical then it would seem reasonable to expect some movement on his part. If it was AS then it would seem reasonable for ME to change and/or adapt and/or HELP him to know how to get around my issues. I grew up knowing I was different. More than that... I was completely convinced that I was crazy and that I needed to hide who I was or people would think I needed locked up. That is a burden I carried as a teen. Later in life I found out about AS and I instantly recognized myself. It was such a relief to know I was not 'crazy' just different. Once I knew what I was dealing with it empowered me to filter through my thoughts, problems,

issues, etc and determine which were a result of AS and which were just normal. That in turn showed me what I needed to work on and what could be left alone. I can't imagine thinking that every last part of me is essentially 'broken'. I found great encourgement in knowing: 1. what was 'ok' (acceptable to the world) and 2. what was not acceptable to the world but was acceptable to me, and 3. what was not acceptable to the world or to me. The last are the things I chose to work on. The second are the things that I just don't endulge openly in front of people with no understanding. And the

first are the things I knew I could fall back on without fear of people going through the roof at me. Finding out about AS released me from so much uncertainty and so much mess. I was now able to look at what I was thinking and tell myself... 'thats AS thinking shut it down' or 'people don't want to hear about that'. It was not necessary that I understand WHY people don't want to know the details of history which in my opinion gives us a more truthful understanding of the present. It is enough to know that people don't want to know. I was able to figure out what exactly people expect. What are the expectations of normalacy. This has rung true in my sex life as well. It was imparitive that I define 'normal' behavior. Both for myself AND my husband. I found some things about me were just typical female. That told me not that I was hopeless, but that like every

other female on the planet I could deal with this thing. In fact I would go so far as to say that in some cases my ASness gave me the ability to more thoroughly deal with some of my normal negative female traits than is typical of most women. Anyway... Maybe this will be of help to someone out there. Jennie - not crazy - AS

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anita, you have a lot of forward momentum in your marraige right now... accolades to you both.  I am looking forward to having your spouse (name?) joining you on the list... I  find this 'sex talk' very compelling.   Both you and your spouse are the same age as I and mine (grammar?) .    In our case, the journey to a sex life has been rife with hills and valleys.   I could write a book about this, a very sad but funny book.  but I choose not to, instead I will tell you simply what works for me.  I have chosen to be very passive which is not my personal style.   He likes it when I 'instigate' but then likes to have it 'his way'.  He does not like it when I tell him what I like, or show him, so I don't anymore.  I think that EVERY MAN  can be expected to reciprocate.  A man who refuses is immature. We can all learn.I'm like   who is not entirely comfortable sharing on this subject, but I offer this to be helpful to you.  Janet ZEE> ... a big angry bunch. { snipped here, for brevity only ]You read way too much into my words Bill,  I am not angry at all. Anita:  I learned here that comparing NT to AS is WRONGheaded.Bill:  If you mean *equating* NT to AS is wrong-headed -- you're absolutelyRIGHT, and I AGREE.  If you mean "making comparisons of NT to AS, to understand differences"is wrong-headed, I couldn't DISAGREE more."Right now, Bill...in our lives there must be a hierarchy of what must come first before anything else.   I believe my husband and I have understood there are differences for a very long time.  Those differences just didn't have a name, we didn't know it was neurological and we didn't know there was set of characteristics that go with that name.   Now we do.   The irony to the whole thing is, I'm not trying to figure out what NT is, my husband isn't trying to figure out what NT is...we are both trying to figure out what AS is.   This list is fabulous for learning about AS!  I understand it more, and he reads and nods and nods .........and the other day with Ron's post on sexuality he actually jumped up and yelled, "that's it!"    I've never seen him THAT animated!  :-)Neither my husband nor myself find any comfort in making comparisons to understand differences.  We now view that sort of thing as a distraction from the most important thing of all at this time.  ACCEPTANCE of AS.  It means me not comparing him to NT in my mind every time he does something and it means him not feeling bad because he didn't do something like an NT would have done it and making comparisons like that.   The whole thing is unproductive.   We understand we're different, Bill.   That's why we've been miserable.    At this moment it is imperative that I give him a safe place to be AS and that we both work very hard for him to be AS in that space.  We want to see if he feels less of a need to apply maladaptive behavior if he is free to be AS.  He is unsure and I am unsure, but we will give it a shot.  One thing at a time, one stage at a time, one breath at a time.  The goal is to embrace AS.He read your post, he's standing next to me, he asked me to type this for him: "I didn't want to read about how NT males can be just like me in the bedroom.  It implies that NT/NT sex can be like NT/AS sex and that NT women end up in the same boat even though they are with NT.   I envy NT men because even though they might not want to change something, they have the ability to change it and they can know the way to change it because of an explanation.  NT males don't  have all that "stuff" in their heads that I have and that's why it's not a comparison.  It's better to compare AS males to AS males in how they are in the bedroom.  This way I can understand if it is possible for me to have sexual relations in a better way because it's comparing apples to apples.   I don't want to be compared to  NT men who don't have all of the things Ron said, lack of coordination, deciding where to put a hand at the same time as a leg or whatever. That's me!  NT men don't get confused in bed, I get confused and lost in a million thoughts, I do that because I am AS.  If NT men are getting the same result I am, it has nothing to do with me or AS.  I can't learn anything from comparing myself to an NT man who has the chance to just think about something and just change it.    I might never get the chance to change it because I don't feel it.  I'd much rather hear from the AS men about whether they have been able to have better sex lives in spite of AS and how they did it because maybe I can learn something."There you have it Bill.  Not my words, my husbands.  He wrinkled up his forehead reading your post too.My husband and I spend time reading the posts together.  It's a good thing, we are at the computer together, it has a sense of intimacy and most importantly we are discussing the things we are reading.   He nods a LOT at some of the posts and he feels the men here have said things he could never put into words.  It's a good thing.I have asked him to join the group.  He feels shy about actually writing directly to the group for now.  He asked if once in a while I would quote him when he felt particularly motivated to say something.  I said I would be happy to.  I hope you all don't mind for now.  We are both smiling here, perhaps he will join the group at some point and be able to speak a bit himself.  We think it would be wonderful, but it will take time. Regards,Anita 55 NT (Married to 61 AS Dxd 4 Months Ago and Getting a Bit Clearer about what AS means. YAY from both of us!)

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote: , Thank you so much for taking the time to remember what it was like atthe beginning and understanding what I was trying to explain in thoseposts. I don't want to ruffle anything up again, but Bill is 75 and hasstated that his wife is singing for only the last two years. me here: yes, it isnt too late to figure it out and adapt. you said: He alsosays he knew things were

different since High School and studiedcontrol groups since that time. That's a LONG time folks! A LONG time of studying control groups andtrying to digest AS to the point any distinctions can be made betweenintentional behavior (NT) and unintentional behavior (AS) andintentional maladaptive behavior (AS) and intentional adaptivebehavior (AS)....and every permutation in between. me here: presumably bill would say that he only had 2 years with a name and a label for what has always had. prior to this, it was all speculation and confusion, despite this, bill seems to have been successfull. one of the few, one of the many. you said:I didn't even write this part of the post to him [bill] because in myworld, someone who has learned so much doesn't say things like, "I wasgoing to hit the delete button." If one has become that adaptive,they either hit the delete button or just answer

the post without thethreat. me here: bit like saying i dont want to ruffle feathers but...... anyway anita, bill presumably now deletes your posts, it is a real shame as there is a lot here who's feathers i do ruffle but bill seems to be able to speak with a little more clarity and tact than i can or do, or chose too. bill is the Yoda of this list, he has a lot of accumulated wisdom. that can only come with.....time. you said:Yes...we are having TONS of "AHaaaaaaaa moments" now..and they allfocus on what AS has been in our marriage coupled with what I keptwanting as an NT. Conversations between us are like, "oh my god,remember when we had that huge fight over __________ and you said youcouldn't understand because it was about too many things, and I saidcan't you think of more than one thing at the same time?" He can nowsay he's on overload and I can

sort of rifle through the last 10things we said or did and understand how the combination of thingsoverloaded him.But is ALL about AS for us now. EVERYTHING is AS focused because ithas to be right now, and if we believe "once you've met one Aspie,you've met one Aspie" to be true....my husband may be on a differentlocation on the spectrum than, say Bill or you, . He may not beable to adapt and learn from knowing any of this. He nods and nodsbecause the words ring true to him, but that may be no indication heis able to, or even wants to (take action)try to correct anything. me here: it will take time for him. he does need room to breathe and think digest and know. im glad your not badgering him. you said: Hemay find it much more soothing to just back away from it all becauseit's overwhelming, and that would be 100% AS burnout and in the end hejust may want to

be left alone and not feel forced to "save" hismarriage. He needs to have these options, in my opinion. He reportsnot feeling like he's EVER had options and he is liking it thus far. me here: i could imagine living with you anita would be pretty reduced options. you seem bossy. you said:The next step in the process may be to differentiate between AS or nonAS behavior. If he does not engage that next step, or becomesoverwhelmed with it, or cannot develop and access a set of internaltools to deal with it...that would be AS preventing him from doing so,because that's just the way it could turn out. me here: yes, it could be this. you said:I continue to be intrigued by the concept that it is even possible formy husband to ultimately "know better" and become an NT'like selfishjerk hiding behind

AS. me here: read jennies post, it is explained very well. knowing who you are, and knowing what is and what isnt normal for you allows self acceptance, knowing better flows from this. you said:Everything we've both read indicates that AS is a neurologicalsituation, as such my brain tells me it would be cruel to accuse himof "using" AS to be anything other than AS. me here: many do. they hide behind it, if you trust i have met more AS than you, then believe me, it happens. i have never known i had AS to hide behind it. now that i do know i accept it and adapt to it, but never try and hide behind it or use it as an excuse for any preferential treatment. you said: How does one overcomeneurology? I'm hearing statements like, "knowing were AS ends and nonAS begins." We've not read anywhere, or was there

any theory likethat presented in the two AANE Boston conferences. Tony Attwoods bookand AANE presentation did not indicate there was a line were AS endsand non AS or NT begins. The information from what we believe are twovery credible sources (AANE and Tony Attwood) approach AS aspervasive, not situational. They say AS is managed as AS, not that AScan slide into NT and back to AS cognitively. me here: im have read attwood, we all have. Attwood doesnt have AS. he describes it well, like a male obstretician describing how to give birth, all hi s experience, skills facts and knowledge he can talk a good shop. he doesnt actually have it (AS) he has never given birth he doesnt understand it, like one with AS does. talk to Attwood about AS sure, talk to me about having AS, i'll tell you what he cant because i can. curiously he can regurgitate and tell you different experiences he has had and recalls, a bit like an AS

with delayed echolalia, not really understanding the context but regurgitating where he can. where he thinks it is appropriate. ask him anything about AS he will tell you what he knows ask him what it feels like to have AS he will tell you what others have told him, each is different, ask me what is it like to have AS and i will tell you, a key to knowing about AS is also knowing what is normal for you as an AS and what beyond that is non-AS behaviour. iyou said:Is there some literature out there that specifically speaks to how ASis just an inch a kilometer or a lightyear from NT? Please let meknow about such information, as we have not seen it at all. me here: i havent read it, perhaps i havent explained it well, i feel jennies post did. you said:Thanks Again , I felt you understood much of what I was trying toconvey. me here: i do understand you

anita. you said:For anyone else out there, just to be clear.......I do NOT think myhusband (or anyone else with Asperger's) is broken, defective or anyother negative words like that. Right now, I'm pretty opposed to himattempting to try to appear NT though. It's exhausting, he doesn't doit well, it ends up a disaster, it drives him into hiding and I'drather he just be free to be AS. It's who he is authentically andlearning acceptable manners and social skills by rote might come downthe road. If he is not so far into the spectrum to be able to handleit with some success.Regards,Anita 55 NT 36 m diagnosed AS.>> jenny i think this is what Bill was getting at in his

recent posts.> Knowing where AS ends and non AS begins, Bill is self aware andknows this distinction, i think Anita and anitas husbands are having alot of "a-haaaa" moments and anything that APPEARS to buck thiercurrent thinking is met with rejection.> to clarify...yes Anita everything about your AS husbands 61 yearsof maladaptive behaviour is "him", what bill is saying, is, in time,the next step of the process is when you differentiate between whatis AS and what is non AS behaviour then you are getting toward whatjenny has written about, self limiting behaviour and adaptations toAS. or "knowing the difference" knowing when to help your husband toadapt, and knowing when he is just being a selfish jerk hiding behindan AS label. At the moment he is ALL AS. in time , and what i thinkbill is getting at is, there is AS behaviour and then there is typicalmale behaviour that some with AS can get away with and hide

behind the"disability" just as you need to help your husband to adapt to what heneeds help on, you also need to not let him "fall" into just being a"jerk"> > 36 m diagnosed AS who has learned as much as Bill has forgotten.

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Contained in Bill's message is a very valid caution to all NT spouses. It's not a matter of "getting away with something" or "hiding behind AS." An NT needs to choose among battles. There are hills out there that you won't want to die on. I've been on this list long enough to have heard NT spouses say many times, "Is this AS or is something else going on?" I've become more tolerant of behaviors I dislike very much because I understand their AS root. Sometimes, though, I'm not sure if a behavior is AS or deliberate. In the example you gave of your husband's unwillingness to reciprocate sexually -- and I apologize if I step over a line of privacy -- there is NOTHING about Aspergers that would dictate that behavior. On the other hand, the clumsiness, etc. is ALL about Aspergers. I don't have literature to back this assertion, but if you want scholarship to answer questions about Aspergers, you'll

be sadly disappointed. It's a relatively new area of study, and studies are too often absent or "soft." The members here, NT and AS alike, are the best source of information, and most have read everything written about Aspergers.However late in life, Bill has embraced his Aspergers. The discovery has saved his marriage, and he is very proud to be among Aspergians. I also think that in his maturity with Aspergers comes a clearer line between AS behavior and deliberate behavior - whether male or female. I like that you used the term "deliberate." That makes sense to me.Anita, I recoiled as well when Bill used the term "demonize." But - he really is a friend. He has studied Aspergers in a way that would satisfy someone smart like you. If there is scholarship out there, he's aware of it. Again, I'm very glad that you're here,Danekasrabande

wrote: , Thank you so much for taking the time to remember what it was like at the beginning and understanding what I was trying to explain in those posts. I don't want to ruffle anything up again, but Bill is 75 and has stated that his wife is singing for only the last two years. He also says he knew things were different since High School and studied control groups since that time. That's a LONG time folks! A LONG time of studying control groups and trying to digest AS to the point any distinctions can be made between

intentional behavior (NT) and unintentional behavior (AS) and intentional maladaptive behavior (AS) and intentional adaptive behavior (AS)....and every permutation in between. I didn't even write this part of the post to him [bill] because in my world, someone who has learned so much doesn't say things like, "I was going to hit the delete button." If one has become that adaptive, they either hit the delete button or just answer the post without the threat. Yes...we are having TONS of "AHaaaaaaaa moments" now..and they all focus on what AS has been in our marriage coupled with what I kept wanting as an NT. Conversations between us are like, "oh my god, remember when we had that huge fight over __________ and you said you couldn't understand because it was about too many things, and I said can't you think of more than one thing at the same time?" He can now say he's on overload and I can sort of rifle

through the last 10 things we said or did and understand how the combination of things overloaded him. But is ALL about AS for us now. EVERYTHING is AS focused because it has to be right now, and if we believe "once you've met one Aspie, you've met one Aspie" to be true....my husband may be on a different location on the spectrum than, say Bill or you, . He may not be able to adapt and learn from knowing any of this. He nods and nods because the words ring true to him, but that may be no indication he is able to, or even wants to (take action)try to correct anything. He may find it much more soothing to just back away from it all because it's overwhelming, and that would be 100% AS burnout and in the end he just may want to be left alone and not feel forced to "save" his marriage. He needs to have these options, in my opinion. He reports not feeling like he's EVER had options and he is liking it thus

far. The next step in the process may be to differentiate between AS or non AS behavior. If he does not engage that next step, or becomes overwhelmed with it, or cannot develop and access a set of internal tools to deal with it...that would be AS preventing him from doing so, because that's just the way it could turn out. I continue to be intrigued by the concept that it is even possible for my husband to ultimately "know better" and become an NT'like selfish jerk hiding behind AS. Everything we've both read indicates that AS is a neurological situation, as such my brain tells me it would be cruel to accuse him of "using" AS to be anything other than AS. How does one overcome neurology? I'm hearing statements like, "knowing were AS ends and non AS begins." We've not read anywhere, or was there any theory like that presented in the two AANE Boston conferences. Tony Attwoods book and AANE

presentation did not indicate there was a line were AS ends and non AS or NT begins. The information from what we believe are two very credible sources (AANE and Tony Attwood) approach AS as pervasive, not situational. They say AS is managed as AS, not that AS can slide into NT and back to AS cognitively. Is there some literature out there that specifically speaks to how AS is just an inch a kilometer or a lightyear from NT? Please let me know about such information, as we have not seen it at all. Thanks Again , I felt you understood much of what I was trying to convey. For anyone else out there, just to be clear.......I do NOT think my husband (or anyone else with Asperger's) is broken, defective or any other negative words like that. Right now, I'm pretty opposed to him attempting to try to appear NT though. It's exhausting, he doesn't do it well, it ends up a disaster, it drives him

into hiding and I'd rather he just be free to be AS. It's who he is authentically and learning acceptable manners and social skills by rote might come down the road. If he is not so far into the spectrum to be able to handle it with some success. Regards, Anita 55 NT > > jenny i think this is what Bill was getting at in his recent posts. > Knowing where AS ends and non AS begins, Bill is self aware and knows this distinction, i think Anita and anitas husbands are having a lot of "a-haaaa" moments and anything that APPEARS to buck thier current thinking is met with rejection. > to clarify...yes Anita everything about your AS husbands 61 years of maladaptive behaviour is "him", what bill is saying, is, in time, the next

step of the process is when you differentiate between what is AS and what is non AS behaviour then you are getting toward what jenny has written about, self limiting behaviour and adaptations to AS. or "knowing the difference" knowing when to help your husband to adapt, and knowing when he is just being a selfish jerk hiding behind an AS label. At the moment he is ALL AS. in time , and what i think bill is getting at is, there is AS behaviour and then there is typical male behaviour that some with AS can get away with and hide behind the "disability" just as you need to help your husband to adapt to what he needs help on, you also need to not let him "fall" into just being a "jerk" > > 36 m diagnosed AS who has learned as much as Bill has forgotten.

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[Guest guest]

srabande wrote:

> ,

[ snip ]

> I don't want to ruffle anything up again, but Bill is 75 and has

[ snip ]

> That's a LONG time folks!

I wondered when you'd feel a need to play the age card.

[ snip ]

> I didn't even write this part of the post to him [bill] because in my

> world, someone who has learned so much doesn't say things like, " I was

> going to hit the delete button. " If one has become that adaptive,

> they either hit the delete button or just answer the post without the

> threat.

My bad. It didn't occur to me the phrase could be read two ways.

I _meant_ I was considering not sending *my* response. That I was

considering just letting the issue slide by, and make no response at

all. But/and clearly I had reconsidered and was making a response.

My apologies for not being clear.

[ snip ]

> Is there some literature out there that specifically speaks to how AS

> is just an inch a kilometer or a lightyear from NT? Please let me

> know about such information, as we have not seen it at all.

There's no such literature.

Why do you ask? Are you implying someone made a fact-claim: " AS is

just an inch ... from NT? "

In a later post:

Someone suggested I might have started filtering your (Anita's) emails.

I have not.

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Anita said: >> I don't want to ruffle anything up again, but Bill is 75 and hasstated that his wife is singing for only the last two years. He alsosays he knew things were different since High School and studiedcontrol groups since that time.<<

Jennie (not ruffled) says: Well for what's it's worth... (probably not much) 2 things.....

1. knowledge of Asperger's has only been out for 12 yrs, so Bill did not exactly have opportunity all those years to really gain understanding into himself. I would think it would be more to the point to ask the following:

Bill, how long did it take you and your wife to come to this good place in marriage once you learned about AS?

2. I seem to have come to the same/similar conclusions as Bill and I am less than half his age.

Anyway,

Jennie AS

[Guest guest]

Jennie Unknown wrote:

> Anita said: >> I don't want to ruffle anything up again, but Bill is 75

> and has

> stated that his wife is singing for only the last two years. He also

> says he knew things were different since High School and studied

> control groups since that time.<<

>

> Jennie (not ruffled) says: Well for what's it's worth... (probably not

> much) 2 things.....

>

> 1. knowledge of Asperger's has only been out for 12 yrs, so Bill did not

> exactly have opportunity all those years to really gain understanding

> into himself. I would think it would be more to the point to ask the

> following:

>

> Bill, how long did it take you and your wife to come to this good place

> in marriage once you learned about AS?

The quick answer is less than a year.

It took longer maybe for my wife to *really* believe the change was

real and likely permanent. My own belief was almost instantaneous.

The better answer recognizes we both were primed beforehand by prior

separate knowledge. So the process' beginning and end-points, and

duration, were different for each of us.

I'd say the duration so far of the " good place " is two years.

As with marriage itself though, *nurturing* the process is and must be

ongoing and continual.

>

> 2. I seem to have come to the same/similar conclusions as Bill and I am

> less than half his age.

My reading of the experiences of other AS List-members: We all had a

critical point of discovery; eventually we all came to similar

conclusions. That's a virtually universal experience on all the

autistic-run autistic-populated lists with which I'm familiar.

>

> Anyway,

>

> Jennie AS

Asidem: L.Wing called attention to Asperger's 1944 paper in her own of

1991 and 1992. It percolated slowly through a resistant psychological

community. Your " ...only been out for 12 yrs " is about right.

But L.Kanner's 1943 and 1944 description of autism *was* available to

me. I read it early-on in college, maybe 1951 or so. That and other

references nearly convinced me I was autistic.

It was " Asperger's " which pulled all the pieces together. It allowed

good verbal skill and higher-than-average cognitive skills, *Then* I

knew! With high confidence I self-dx'd in 2003 or so. Formal c. 2004.

- Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

said: >>jenny i think this is what Bill was getting at in his recent posts.

Knowing where AS ends and non AS begins, Bill is self aware and knows this distinction,<<

Jennie says: Yep I was just saying it my way as sort of an agreement to what Bill was saying.

said>>i think Anita and anitas husbands are having a lot of "a-haaaa" moments and anything that APPEARS to buck thier current thinking is met with rejection.

to clarify...yes Anita everything about your AS husbands 61 years of maladaptive behaviour is "him", what bill is saying, is, in time, the next step of the process is when you differentiate between what is AS and what is non AS behaviour then you are getting toward what jenny has written about, self limiting behaviour and adaptations to AS. or "knowing the difference"<<

Jennie says: Yes! Yes! Yes! When I learned about AS I had only heard of autism once or twice. I had never heard of any related diagnosis, AS included. I immediately recognized myself because I had (like Bill) spent a lot of time analyzing myself and why I was different, trying to make sense of my existance and lack of 'fitting in'. I spent about a half a year of intense learning (probably perservating) about AS. After that I starting intense learning about what is 'NT' or 'normal'. Then I began to mesh the two, analyze the different parts of me, make decisions about what needed to change and what was just fine even though folks don't like it. Thus began self limiting behaviors, adapting, learning what triggers my AS behavior and monitoring that, etc. There are things for example that if I allow them in my life all the time will cause me to be much more AS in my actions/thinking/talking.

said: >>knowing when to help your husband to adapt, and knowing when he is just being a selfish jerk hiding behind an AS label. At the moment he is ALL AS. in time , and what i think bill is getting at is, there is AS behaviour and then there is typical male behaviour that some with AS can get away with and hide behind the "disability" just as you need to help your husband to adapt to what he needs help on, you also need to not let him "fall" into just being a "jerk"<<

Jennie says: >> Definitely agree with 's assessment here.

Jennie diagnosed AS

_______________________________________Jennie Unknown <mossbtweenmetoestds (DOT) net> wrote:

Just a few thoughts....

I found it very liberating to learn that many of my 'issues' were actually the issues of ALL women not just my AS. It made me feel like maybe I'm not such a freak after all.

If being AS means everything goes through the screen of AS thinking then we should all be the same. Being a male AS should be the same as being a female AS. In which case my words should be just as relevant as those of the male AS. I think it's been pretty clear even on this list, let alone research, that there are differences between the sexes, even when we are AS. Then we have also the differences created by environment and personality. Each person needs to get to know themself and how AS affects them personally. There have been times I have doubted my diagnosis just because I am so different from many others with AS. But the fact is... I am diagnosed. I am AS.

I ound it necessary to know what parts of me are NT and which are AS. I wanted to know if what I want from my husband was an unreasonable thing based in AS thinking or if what I wanted was a typical desire of most women. If it was typical then it would seem reasonable to expect some movement on his part. If it was AS then it would seem reasonable for ME to change and/or adapt and/or HELP him to know how to get around my issues.

I grew up knowing I was different. More than that... I was completely convinced that I was crazy and that I needed to hide who I was or people would think I needed locked up. That is a burden I carried as a teen. Later in life I found out about AS and I instantly recognized myself. It was such a relief to know I was not 'crazy' just different. Once I knew what I was dealing with it empowered me to filter through my thoughts, problems, issues, etc and determine which were a result of AS and which were just normal. That in turn showed me what I needed to work on and what could be left alone. I can't imagine thinking that every last part of me is essentially 'broken'. I found great encourgement in knowing:

1. what was 'ok' (acceptable to the world) and

2. what was not acceptable to the world but was acceptable to me, and

3. what was not acceptable to the world or to me.

The last are the things I chose to work on. The second are the things that I just don't endulge openly in front of people with no understanding. And the first are the things I knew I could fall back on without fear of people going through the roof at me.

Finding out about AS released me from so much uncertainty and so much mess. I was now able to look at what I was thinking and tell myself... 'thats AS thinking shut it down' or 'people don't want to hear about that'. It was not necessary that I understand WHY people don't want to know the details of history which in my opinion gives us a more truthful understanding of the present. It is enough to know that people don't want to know. I was able to figure out what exactly people expect. What are the expectations of normalacy. This has rung true in my sex life as well. It was imparitive that I define 'normal' behavior. Both for myself AND my husband. I found some things about me were just typical female. That told me not that I was hopeless, but that like every other female on the planet I could deal with this thing. In fact I would go so far as to say that in some cases my ASness gave me the ability to more thoroughly deal with some of my normal negative female traits than is typical of most women.

Anyway... Maybe this will be of help to someone out there.

Jennie - not crazy - AS