RE: Jennie and dynamic.

[Guest guest]

Hello Jennie,

Thanks for the feedback. It’s

always good to find out just how your comments have been thought about.

A lot of my own dysfunction during my

marriages was very much because of my inherent self-centredness.

But it was probably not obvious that that was the trouble. I paid very

close attention to whatever was being said by the other party, in an endeavour

to exhibit politeness and respect.; - and this was and is always very hard

work. I think it was in Stanford’s book that one wife (may even

have been the author) told how she asked her AS husband whether it was true

that even in their most intimate and personal talks, was he managing to be

reasonably spontaneous? He shocked and hurt her when he told her

that it was still hard work, and was calculated and

contrived. I know exactly what he was talking

about. Actually I could talk a very great deal to my wives and

indeed it was made plain to me that after our split-ups, all three of them

deeply missed the communication that they’d had with me. But of

course, the interaction remained in the intellectual for the most part, and

they were rather intellectual types themselves. But they didn’t get

contact in the truly personal and intimate level.

I absolutely hated (small) talk about the

routine days doings, or how much I’d spent on this or that, or about my

conversation with Joe Bloggs when I ran into him down the street. But otherwise

and a lot of the time, I could talk my head off, and discuss many things quite

freely But perhaps my wives found a complete blank when they made the normal

attempt to see beneath the talkative exterior. They liked my intellect

and my knowledge; but on the other hand, they found an almost complete

disconnect when it came to personal issues. I could appear to be empathic

and personal, but somehow it was surface only. My thinking in

those matters was probably rather abstract and theoretical, as well as

non-judgemental. I must add that so long as I felt no

personal threat or any degree of interrogation, I could quite happily describe

or talk freely about my emotions, my inner problems and inhibitions. As

soon though, as the questioning took on any tension or pressure, my freedom

seized up and I withdrew. One thing of interest I’ve

mentioned before is that in any sort of personal or ‘intimate’

discussion, I could not cope with any physical contact. Body touching

while lying in bed during talk was totally wrong for me. Similarly even

holding hands during a personal talk was inhibiting. Though I am

used to looking anyone in the eyes while talking, it was most uncomfortable for

me during intimate talk. Tended almost to ‘jam’ my thinking

processes rather.

Come to think of it, during any intimate

or personal talk, I needed to mentally separate myself from my partner. I

guess I became the proverbial (little) Professor, engaging almost in a lecture

rather than a relationship interaction. It’s described so often in

the literature as ‘talking at’ rather than ‘talking with’.

In the traditional systems of Psychotherapy, one was always told to get out of

‘one’s head’ as it were and to be real. Any attempt on

my part to do this would mean that I simply went dead or blank.

Shut up my talk and my intellectual processes, and the other party became

oppressively alien; while their emotional expressions became too much for me.

Your comment about certain of the problems

being in my wives, is true enough in regard to numbers one and three.

There were probably neurotic needs there that I had no hope of fulfilling.

Very odd to be needed and valued on one hand, and at times despised and

despaired of on the other hand, by the same person. The subsequent

ups and downs in the relationships just destroyed me in the long

run. Big ups and big downs I found terribly difficult to

take. They might work with a passionate and volatile NT lover who

is physically sexual, but not with an Aspie who just lives for ‘steady

state’ day by day living.

Anyway, I’m answering Anita after

this, and some of my discussion there may be of interest, as it will overlap

with this.

Cheers, Ron

Subject:

RE: male/female dynamic... rather long.

Ron, I would guess you are right that AS exacerbates

tendancies. Since I am female and tend to think like men, it stands to reason

that AS men would tend to be on the fringe of male thinking. I can't say that I

know enough guarenteed NT men to know whether or not they are more empathetic.

All I know is every women's group I've ever been too, most women sit around and

complain about their husbands about how they 'don't understand', 'don't care',

don't take care of stuff, are selfish, etc. I actually stopped joining women's

groups because I felt like a freak being the only one there who wasn't

complaining about my husband..... even though I justifiably could have.

So while I can't begin to comment on everything you

said..... It was very interesting by the way, I do think that there's probably

alot that AS men are thinking is AS behavior when in reality it's just normal

male behavior/thinking. I could be way out in left field. All I know is that

there have been many things in myself that I viewed as dysfunctional and

clearly part of my psychological problems only to find out that it is normal

female thinking/behavior. A lot of this has to do with point of view and who've

we've been around all our life.

Jennie

P.S. I also think your wives sound like just maybe a lot of

the problem lies with them, not just you and your AS.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ron,

I'm not sure why spontaneity is the acid test for whether one is 'loved'. If you ask me all that effort aught to count for something? If one is spontaneous then it means they are simply having a knee jerk reaction which might have a whole lot more to do with what they ate/drank or what the weather is than it does with me. I would rather my husband put effort and thought into the reationship. We use words like 'calculated' 'contrived' 'acted' 'pretended' etc but why not say, "I am willing to put huge amounts of effort into pleasing this person because I believe they are important." Or something.... Why does it have to be a negative thing that we are not spontaneous?

I believe it was who posted a while back about what a compliment it was to his ex girlfriend that he was just as happy with her there as when he was by himself. This is a similar thing. Spontaneous takes no effort and quickly disappears if there is no effort made. Lots of people today are all spontaneous and no effort. I'd rather have no spontaneous and lots of effort. I'm sure both would be nice to someone who is NT but if one has to chose effort will last longer and have more value in the long run.

Spontaneous without substance is worthless

Jennie

RE: male/female dynamic... rather long.

Ron, I would guess you are right that AS exacerbates tendancies. Since I am female and tend to think like men, it stands to reason that AS men would tend to be on the fringe of male thinking. I can't say that I know enough guarenteed NT men to know whether or not they are more empathetic. All I know is every women's group I've ever been too, most women sit around and complain about their husbands about how they 'don't understand', 'don't care', don't take care of stuff, are selfish, etc. I actually stopped joining women's groups because I felt like a freak being the only one there who wasn't complaining about my husband..... even though I justifiably could have.

So while I can't begin to comment on everything you said..... It was very interesting by the way, I do think that there's probably alot that AS men are thinking is AS behavior when in reality it's just normal male behavior/thinking. I could be way out in left field. All I know is that there have been many things in myself that I viewed as dysfunctional and clearly part of my psychological problems only to find out that it is normal female thinking/behavior. A lot of this has to do with point of view and who've we've been around all our life.

Jennie

P.S. I also think your wives sound like just maybe a lot of the problem lies with them, not just you and your AS.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM

[Guest guest]

Ron,I really enjoy your posts and admirehow articulate you are in describing what for me is very similar experiences. This post struck a chord as it describes exactly how difficult itis for me to deal with confrontation and emotional ups and downs. Ido tend to talk at people rather than to people and I can get tagged withbeing arrogant but my intentions are to help and guide. Your contribution to this group is quitespecial.GregGreerManager, Enterprise Service ManagementService ManagementIBM Corporation-Level 2, 3 Brookhollow Ave, BaulkhamHills, NSW 2065'Tel: +61-2-9849-1989ÈMobile:+61-Fax: +61-2-9849-16568Email: ggreer@... " Ron H. " Sent by: aspires-relationships 05/12/2007 10:20 PMPlease respond toaspires-relationships To<aspires-relationships >ccSubjectRE: Jennie anddynamic.Hello Jennie,Thanks for the feedback. It’salways good to find out just how your comments have been thought about. A lot of my own dysfunctionduring my marriages was very much because of my inherent self-centredness. But it was probably not obvious that that was the trouble. Ipaid very close attention to whatever was being said by the other party,in an endeavour to exhibit politeness and respect.; - and this was andis always very hard work. I think it was in Stanford’s book thatone wife (may even have been the author) told how she asked her AS husbandwhether it was true that even in their most intimate and personal talks,was he managing to be reasonably spontaneous? He shocked and hurther when he told her that it was still hard work, and was calculated andcontrived. I know exactly what he was talking about. Actually I could talk a very great deal to my wives and indeed it was madeplain to me that after our split-ups, all three of them deeply missed thecommunication that they’d had with me. But of course, the interactionremained in the intellectual for the most part, and they were rather intellectualtypes themselves. But they didn’t get contact in the truly personaland intimate level. I absolutely hated (small) talkabout the routine days doings, or how much I’d spent on this or that,or about my conversation with Joe Bloggs when I ran into him down the street.But otherwise and a lot of the time, I could talk my head off, and discussmany things quite freely But perhaps my wives found a complete blank whenthey made the normal attempt to see beneath the talkative exterior. Theyliked my intellect and my knowledge; but on the other hand, they foundan almost complete disconnect when it came to personal issues. Icould appear to be empathic and personal, but somehow it was surface only. My thinking in those matters was probably rather abstractand theoretical, as well as non-judgemental. I must add thatso long as I felt no personal threat or any degree of interrogation, Icould quite happily describe or talk freely about my emotions, my innerproblems and inhibitions. As soon though, as the questioning tookon any tension or pressure, my freedom seized up and I withdrew. One thing of interest I’ve mentioned before is that in any sortof personal or ‘intimate’ discussion, I could not cope with any physicalcontact. Body touching while lying in bed during talk was totallywrong for me. Similarly even holding hands during a personal talkwas inhibiting. Though I am used to looking anyone in the eyes whiletalking, it was most uncomfortable for me during intimate talk. Tendedalmost to ‘jam’ my thinking processes rather. Come to think of it, duringany intimate or personal talk, I needed to mentally separate myself frommy partner. I guess I became the proverbial (little) Professor, engagingalmost in a lecture rather than a relationship interaction. It’sdescribed so often in the literature as ‘talking at’ rather than ‘talkingwith’. In the traditional systems of Psychotherapy, one was alwaystold to get out of ‘one’s head’ as it were and to be real. Anyattempt on my part to do this would mean that I simply went dead or blank. Shut up my talk and my intellectual processes, and the other partybecame oppressively alien; while their emotional expressions became toomuch for me. Your comment about certain ofthe problems being in my wives, is true enough in regard to numbers oneand three. There were probably neurotic needs there that I had nohope of fulfilling. Very odd to be needed and valued on one hand,and at times despised and despaired of on the other hand, by the same person. The subsequent ups and downs in the relationships just destroyedme in the long run. Big ups and big downs I found terribly difficultto take. They might work with a passionate and volatile NT loverwho is physically sexual, but not with an Aspie who just lives for ‘steadystate’ day by day living. Anyway, I’m answering Anitaafter this, and some of my discussion there may be of interest, as it willoverlap with this.Cheers, Ron Subject: RE: male/female dynamic...rather long. Ron, I would guess you are right that AS exacerbatestendancies. Since I am female and tend to think like men, it stands toreason that AS men would tend to be on the fringe of male thinking. I can'tsay that I know enough guarenteed NT men to know whether or not they aremore empathetic. All I know is every women's group I've ever been too,most women sit around and complain about their husbands about how they'don't understand', 'don't care', don't take care of stuff, are selfish,etc. I actually stopped joining women's groups because I felt like a freakbeing the only one there who wasn't complaining about my husband..... eventhough I justifiably could have. So while I can't begin to comment on everythingyou said..... It was very interesting by the way, I do think that there'sprobably alot that AS men are thinking is AS behavior when in reality it'sjust normal male behavior/thinking. I could be way out in left field. AllI know is that there have been many things in myself that I viewed as dysfunctionaland clearly part of my psychological problems only to find out that itis normal female thinking/behavior. A lot of this has to do with pointof view and who've we've been around all our life. Jennie P.S. I also think your wives sound like justmaybe a lot of the problem lies with them, not just you and your AS.