RE: Anita, Sorry very long.

[Guest guest]

Hi Anita,

I found your comments very

interesting and familiar in their message. On ‘Jane being

rude at dinner’… yes this is just the sort of issue that I can

relate to. Problems in my case would often arise because either I had

been totally unaware of Jane’s attitude, and thus could not in all

honesty agree, or else perhaps my wife’s history of antagonism to Jane

was always painful to me, since perhaps I personally had always found Jane most

friendly. As well, of course, if there was the

suggestion that her comments about Jane were based on some unfounded jealousy

or whatever, then I might be totally unaware of it, or it might just be hurtful

to me to see one of our friends bad-mouthed and perhaps some uncalled for accusation

tossed at me.

Certainly the wife’s attempt to

connect by means of a hoped for agreement may well be a cause of such

situations. The Aspie of course will have in his mind the conviction that

there is already perfect connection because after all, he has just been out to

dinner with his wife, (and maybe in the process over-riding his social

discomforture) and also in the fact that he is sitting down and enjoying the

rest of the evening with her. In any case, to him it will probably

be one of the least important or interesting of things to even consider whether

Jane was rude or not.

As an Aspie too, he probably goes through

cringes and sheer pain innumerable times a day, in a fashion that his wife can

never dream of, and that he wouldn’t consider talking about for a single

moment. To bring up a tiny issue of Jane’s social faux pas,

would be almost irrelevant in the days doings. I guess that talk of

this kind about other people may actually be VERY much relationship ‘charged’

to the Aspie, after all. He may feel and resent the

fact that he is being pressured to think and feel about something that simply

glossed over the top of his head; and it would literally be painful to take it

on board and bother about it.

<<<Ron, I have

seen this situation in my marriage as well. Over the last

few months I've tried to understand why I insisted my husband

" support " my opinions or estimations of others or of situations. The

whole untangling of what a long term NT/AS can " become " is an arduous

task to say the least. I don't remember EVER needing these levels of

validation/confirmation in my life until after I married my husband.

I'm never sure why certain interactions became important to me, but my

guess is that I so desperately want him on a same page with me (any

page actually, just once?) that I would take offense to him not being

on the page. I *think* the NT introduction of " opinion " about other

people, other places, things outside the marriage is supposed to

create conversation that is not relationship " charged " . Surely, we

could agree Jane was rude at dinner this evening, right? This tactic

on the part of an NT is as feeble as an AS pretending to be intuitive.

In my opinion, the arguments stemming from her opinions on things

outside the marriage, had little to do with those things and

everything to do with another misguided attempt to " connect " with

you.

My comment about how my wife often envied

me for my range of friends and

the good and successful life I led, (or

that which I appeared to live) maybe needs

a little elaboration. She was

not a person who could take control of her own life

and found friends easily, or things to do

with herself. I had no idea until we got

married that she was relying on me to

introduce her to things and people, to

initiate things for us to do, and so

on. All too frequently, Aspies are not folks

who can do these things. With the

tendency to neglect the needs and feelings

of our partners, we can be oblivious of

what they are going through. It was

on many an occasion that my wife virtually

bailed me up demanding that I

find something for us to ‘do’

together; and I just went into sheer panic and

paralysis, unable to think.

I was only good at finding things for

myself to do. Oh, I always encouraged

my wife to do whatever she wanted; and I

would cooperate with her, in

accompanying her in the process at times,

etc. And very often, I would

go through the pains of hell, trying to

talk to her about matters that were of

considerable importance to her but horrendously

tedious to myself.

Sadly it almost invariably turned out that

the people I liked and called friends

were folks that she would dislike. It

must be admitted that with my friends,

(and much to her disgust, I would so often

regard mere acquaintances as

‘friends’, not being able to

see the difference) I of course was not having

to deal in an intimate or ‘relationship

charged’ condition. They didn’t put

me under any pressure, and so consequently

appeared to remain on very

good and happy terms with me.

Of course, if or when she became aware

of the perhaps rather shallow nature of my

relations with them, she could

cease to envy me. But she might then

criticize me for not having ‘real’

friends.

I have to admit that in the long run, with

my inability to see into anything

of the REAL nature of anyone, including my

wife, I never really could

clearly distinguish my wife from anyone

else. I tended to treat everybody

all or much the same. I couldn’t

really distinguish a special sort of

loyalty that I owed her especially. Everyone

got much the same sort of

sympathy, politeness and

consideration. No, I never understood marriage,

and I don’t think I ever really

comprehended the business of being a wife or

a husband. One of the reasons I

guess, why I’m positive my character-

istics are of an AS variety, rather than just

typically male.

>>Friendship to an NT

means they share information about themselves,

establish a trust to be able to confide in each other, many times

about very personal and sensitive information. When you said you were

" like many Aspies of the secretive variety " I (an NT) coupled that up

with the NT meaning attached to friendship and came to a lose

conclusion that she may have felt you must have been more open with

your friends than you were with her. Which wasn't true at all, but

(NT thinking here) how could you maintain friendships with people you

aren't conversationally intimate with?

I don’t know if my ‘secretive’

style of AS is typical of many. Probably one of

the varieties that crops up among our breed.

But a great deal of this I think is

learned behaviour due to habits born early

in our lives, when we found that it

was consistently unsafe to express our thoughts

and feelings to other folk.

What went on in our heads was proven again

and again to be unpopular and

politically incorrect if pronounced. Then

in my relationships as a mature

person, this was substantiated, with many occasions

of unguardedly speaking

what was in my mind, and getting blasted for

it, - when from my point of view,

I could see absolutely nothing wrong with what

I said.

I mentioned earlier that I am simply not aware

of the realness and the inner

nature of other people, even of the one I might

have lived with for twenty years

or more. And when you don’t know

their inner selves, one of the effects is that

you really only see their outer selves. The

goodness, the inner beauty can

escape you; and so the inherent faults and

failings however small whether

physical or habitual, simply put you off. You

are not connecting with trust

and closeness, and therefore you never truly

relax with them or communicate

with genuine spontaneity. You can

be literally intimidated by the very things

that might well make them genuine persons.

So perhaps it can be clear just

why a person like myself will keep quiet rather

than speak the truth at every

point and blurt out things that would hurt

or disturb.

Now, theoretically I know that people are ‘good’

for the most part, and in

practice, day by day, I do trust them, and

I make a deliberate attempt to treat

just about everyone with due respect for the

inherent goodness and importance

that I believe about them in principle. But

in the intimate situation, I don’t

feel the same sort of confidence in any way.

Like most Aspergians, I want

to have friendship and contact with a select

group of people. But I need them

on my own terms. Any other way will put

me off. So in my intimate relations

as well as in my friendships, I literally work

hard, putting up with much that to

me is literally unpleasant, in order to get

the very few things that I do want out

of the association. And looking

back, I have to admit quite truthfully, that

there were really very few things that I wanted,

that motivated me towards the

business of being married. I was an eternal

optimist, going into my three

marriages. Each time it was something

of a shock to me. All too much of it

turned out to be painful. I

was simply never prepared for marriage.

Perhaps a lot of NTs chose marriage, in order

to have the person that they

desired. With me it was the opposite

process. I chose the person, in order to

have the relationship that I saw myself as

desiring. (In some ways it was true

that I strictly speaking didn’t choose

my partners, I arranged it so that they

would choose me.

I guess I can say now at the age of 72,

that with the diminution of the sexual

Interest, there are not the same set of motivations

that I would have had

and enjoyed in my younger days, to get me prepared

to cope with the

business of cohabitation. That

is why I live alone most cheerfully now,

knowing that I would not want to inflict myself

on any other – male or

female, old or young, in a ‘live-in’

situation, let alone to cope with my own

continual closeness to another. Interesting

to note that my third wife still

keeps in very close contact with me, despite

having a steady b/f; and comes

to me with so much she still wants to talk

about.

I’d better go. I’ve probably

said enough.

Cheers, Ron.

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I must very politely, very respectfully and VERY sincerely request

that you NEVER apologize for a post or a conversation like that

again. You're brand of AS as you describe it here is a precise

thesis of my life with a husband who clearly has your brand of AS.

If you wrote 4,000 more posts about specific incidences and

elaborated on each, I don't think I could reach my fill.

I stand and applaud your self introspection and complete acceptance

of all that makes you, Ron. I admire the intense amount of work you

may have had to do to be able to speak this eloquently.

I will take this post and re-read it until I have memorized it,

because it is SPOT ON and delivered in the kindest way possible by a

very capable and sincere man.

Thank you so much for this effort and clarity.

Regards,

Anita 55 NT

>

> Hi Anita,

>

>

>

> I found your comments very interesting and familiar in their

message. On

> 'Jane being rude at dinner'. yes this is just the sort of issue

that I can

> relate to. Problems in my case would often arise because either I

had been

> totally unaware of Jane's attitude, and thus could not in all

honesty agree,

> or else perhaps my wife's history of antagonism to Jane was always

painful

> to me, since perhaps I personally had always found Jane most

friendly.

> As well, of course, if there was the suggestion that her comments

about Jane

> were based on some unfounded jealousy or whatever, then I might be

totally

> unaware of it, or it might just be hurtful to me to see one of our

friends

> bad-mouthed and perhaps some uncalled for accusation tossed at me.

>

>

>

> Certainly the wife's attempt to connect by means of a hoped for

agreement

> may well be a cause of such situations. The Aspie of course will

have in

> his mind the conviction that there is already perfect connection

because

> after all, he has just been out to dinner with his wife, (and maybe

in the

> process over-riding his social discomforture) and also in the fact

that he

> is sitting down and enjoying the rest of the evening with her. In

any

> case, to him it will probably be one of the least important or

interesting

> of things to even consider whether Jane was rude or not.

>

>

>

> As an Aspie too, he probably goes through cringes and sheer pain

innumerable

> times a day, in a fashion that his wife can never dream of, and

that he

> wouldn't consider talking about for a single moment. To bring up

a tiny

> issue of Jane's social faux pas, would be almost irrelevant in the

days

> doings. I guess that talk of this kind about other people may

actually be

> VERY much relationship 'charged' to the Aspie, after all. He

may feel

> and resent the fact that he is being pressured to think and feel

about

> something that simply glossed over the top of his head; and it would

> literally be painful to take it on board and bother about it.

>

>

> <<<Ron, I have seen this situation in my marriage as well. Over the

last

> few months I've tried to understand why I insisted my husband

> " support " my opinions or estimations of others or of situations. The

> whole untangling of what a long term NT/AS can " become " is an

arduous

> task to say the least. I don't remember EVER needing these levels of

> validation/confirmation in my life until after I married my

husband.

> I'm never sure why certain interactions became important to me, but

my

> guess is that I so desperately want him on a same page with me (any

> page actually, just once?) that I would take offense to him not

being

> on the page. I *think* the NT introduction of " opinion " about other

> people, other places, things outside the marriage is supposed to

> create conversation that is not relationship " charged " . Surely, we

> could agree Jane was rude at dinner this evening, right? This tactic

> on the part of an NT is as feeble as an AS pretending to be

intuitive.

> In my opinion, the arguments stemming from her opinions on things

> outside the marriage, had little to do with those things and

> everything to do with another misguided attempt to " connect " with

you.

>

>

>

>

>

> My comment about how my wife often envied me for my range of

friends and

>

> the good and successful life I led, (or that which I appeared to

live) maybe

> needs

>

> a little elaboration. She was not a person who could take control

of her

> own life

>

> and found friends easily, or things to do with herself. I had no

idea until

> we got

>

> married that she was relying on me to introduce her to things and

people, to

>

>

> initiate things for us to do, and so on. All too frequently,

Aspies are

> not folks

>

> who can do these things. With the tendency to neglect the needs and

> feelings

>

> of our partners, we can be oblivious of what they are going

through. It

> was

>

> on many an occasion that my wife virtually bailed me up demanding

that I

>

> find something for us to 'do' together; and I just went into sheer

panic and

>

>

> paralysis, unable to think.

>

>

>

> I was only good at finding things for myself to do. Oh, I always

encouraged

>

>

> my wife to do whatever she wanted; and I would cooperate with her,

in

>

> accompanying her in the process at times, etc. And very often, I

would

>

> go through the pains of hell, trying to talk to her about matters

that were

> of

>

> considerable importance to her but horrendously tedious to myself.

>

>

>

> Sadly it almost invariably turned out that the people I liked and

called

> friends

>

> were folks that she would dislike. It must be admitted that with my

> friends,

>

> (and much to her disgust, I would so often regard mere

acquaintances as

>

> 'friends', not being able to see the difference) I of course was

not having

>

> to deal in an intimate or 'relationship charged' condition. They

didn't

> put

>

> me under any pressure, and so consequently appeared to remain on

very

>

> good and happy terms with me. Of course, if or when she became

aware

>

> of the perhaps rather shallow nature of my relations with them, she

could

>

> cease to envy me. But she might then criticize me for not

having 'real'

>

> friends.

>

>

>

> I have to admit that in the long run, with my inability to see into

anything

>

> of the REAL nature of anyone, including my wife, I never really

could

>

> clearly distinguish my wife from anyone else. I tended to treat

everybody

>

> all or much the same. I couldn't really distinguish a special sort

of

>

> loyalty that I owed her especially. Everyone got much the same

sort of

>

> sympathy, politeness and consideration. No, I never understood

marriage,

>

> and I don't think I ever really comprehended the business of being

a wife or

>

>

> a husband. One of the reasons I guess, why I'm positive my

character-

>

> istics are of an AS variety, rather than just typically male.

>

>

>

> >>Friendship to an NT means they share information about themselves,

> establish a trust to be able to confide in each other, many times

> about very personal and sensitive information. When you said you

were

> " like many Aspies of the secretive variety " I (an NT) coupled that

up

> with the NT meaning attached to friendship and came to a lose

> conclusion that she may have felt you must have been more open with

> your friends than you were with her. Which wasn't true at all, but

> (NT thinking here) how could you maintain friendships with people

you

> aren't conversationally intimate with?

>

>

>

> I don't know if my 'secretive' style of AS is typical of many.

Probably one

> of

>

> the varieties that crops up among our breed. But a great deal of

this I

> think is

>

> learned behaviour due to habits born early in our lives, when we

found that

> it

>

> was consistently unsafe to express our thoughts and feelings to

other folk.

>

>

> What went on in our heads was proven again and again to be

unpopular and

>

> politically incorrect if pronounced. Then in my relationships as

a mature

>

> person, this was substantiated, with many occasions of unguardedly

speaking

>

> what was in my mind, and getting blasted for it, - when from my

point of

> view,

>

> I could see absolutely nothing wrong with what I said.

>

>

>

> I mentioned earlier that I am simply not aware of the realness and

the inner

>

>

> nature of other people, even of the one I might have lived with for

twenty

> years

>

> or more. And when you don't know their inner selves, one of the

effects is

> that

>

> you really only see their outer selves. The goodness, the inner

beauty can

>

>

> escape you; and so the inherent faults and failings however small

whether

>

> physical or habitual, simply put you off. You are not connecting

with trust

>

>

> and closeness, and therefore you never truly relax with them or

communicate

>

> with genuine spontaneity. You can be literally intimidated by the

very

> things

>

> that might well make them genuine persons. So perhaps it can be

clear just

>

>

> why a person like myself will keep quiet rather than speak the

truth at

> every

>

> point and blurt out things that would hurt or disturb.

>

>

>

> Now, theoretically I know that people are 'good' for the most part,

and in

>

> practice, day by day, I do trust them, and I make a deliberate

attempt to

> treat

>

> just about everyone with due respect for the inherent goodness and

> importance

>

> that I believe about them in principle. But in the intimate

situation, I

> don't

>

> feel the same sort of confidence in any way. Like most Aspergians,

I want

>

> to have friendship and contact with a select group of people. But

I need

> them

>

> on my own terms. Any other way will put me off. So in my intimate

> relations

>

> as well as in my friendships, I literally work hard, putting up

with much

> that to

>

> me is literally unpleasant, in order to get the very few things

that I do

> want out

>

> of the association. And looking back, I have to admit quite

truthfully,

> that

>

> there were really very few things that I wanted, that motivated me

towards

> the

>

> business of being married. I was an eternal optimist, going into

my three

>

> marriages. Each time it was something of a shock to me. All too

much of it

>

> turned out to be painful. I was simply never prepared for

marriage.

>

>

>

> Perhaps a lot of NTs chose marriage, in order to have the person

that they

>

> desired. With me it was the opposite process. I chose the

person, in

> order to

>

> have the relationship that I saw myself as desiring. (In some

ways it was

> true

>

> that I strictly speaking didn't choose my partners, I arranged it

so that

> they

>

> would choose me.

>

>

>

> I guess I can say now at the age of 72, that with the diminution

of the

> sexual

>

> Interest, there are not the same set of motivations that I would

have had

>

> and enjoyed in my younger days, to get me prepared to cope with the

>

> business of cohabitation. That is why I live alone most

cheerfully now,

>

> knowing that I would not want to inflict myself on any other - male

or

>

> female, old or young, in a 'live-in' situation, let alone to cope

with my

> own

>

> continual closeness to another. Interesting to note that my third

wife

> still

>

> keeps in very close contact with me, despite having a steady b/f;

and comes

>

> to me with so much she still wants to talk about.

>

>

>

> I'd better go. I've probably said enough.

>

> Cheers, Ron.

>