Re: Interest/Alarm/Provoke or Discuss? Yes Discuss, that's it.

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote: hi anita, i am glad your back, you do need to be here. please note this isnt a plea to your nt sense of resonance. i do mean it. you said: Anita Writes:The article, as well as the general sense of what Dawson is trying toachieve is in response to those who feel they would like to develop,treatments, medications, strategies, etc. to eradicate autism from thepopulation. It all sounds like a great idea as a concept. Until

onereads the "other" stuff that has previously gone with this ideologyand perhaps may still be going on like aversion therapy where apatient is made to feel bad, is chastised, or actually beelectronically shocked if they give a wrong answer, or are notcomporting to what NT psychiatrists tout as "normal." Dawson argues against people who make analogies to autism as a"cancer" that must be cut out and destroyed. She takes great issuewith many of these ideas. I think 's last, rather cordial emailto me on the list about maladaptive behaviors fishtails Dawson'spoint. me here: errrm whats fishtail mean? didnt respond to anything else below: 36 m diagnosed AS cordial. I believe she is advocating for autistics to be "left alone"to be autistic. Therefore anyone who attempts to do

anything aboutautism, even utilizing Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) is viewed ascontrary to The Autism Acceptance Project of which she is a hugeproponent.Once again, I believe the NT and AS worlds collide like two race carsat full throttle. An NT looks at autism as something even theautistic can't wait to get rid of, but NT ends up being wrong becauseAS doesn't translate to AS that way. AS doesn't seem to cause aperson to want to be rid of it in the NT sense, it just causes them towant to be alone with it in the AS sense.So the original posters comment "those among us who are down on AS" isrepresentative of an AS who is in agreement with Dawson, that autismshould be left alone to be what it is. It also attempts to provoke NTon the list (because I sense AS wouldn't be alarmed or provoked by theconcept of being left alone). The interest/alarm/provocation is with NT thought on this subject. Most

NT who have interacted or been married to AS want nothing morethan a "cure" for it with an eye toward eradicating it from the planetso people don't have to suffer. (The suffering one's being NT's.) AS(to greater or lesser degrees) have no passionate desire to doanything about AS because they are AS.- NT more often than not cannot be in a relationship with AS- AS more often than not cannot be in a relationship with AS- AS has a tough time in mainstream schools when they are young- AS has a tough time in mainstream society when they are olderThe Dawson article raises some incredible questions about education,employment, health care, relationships, who's responsible and a slewof other issues that bubble up if AS, autism is just left to be whatit is. Perhaps it would be fruitful if a discussion could go forward aboutthe issues that bubble up as a result of Dawson's advocacy. Would itall be good if Dawson

was successful, or would there be a lot ofunanswered questions or problems that need to be working out first?Regards,Anita NT 55

Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail.

[Guest guest]

That's a great link - thanks for that, Bill. And I agree absolutely that AS is happy being AS. And can be just as badly damaged by relating to NT as NT is in relating to AS. Sadly. The stronger I grew and the better I recognised my own individuality, and set my own boundaries, the more my husband sufferered, grew less confident, became more aware of his own 'deficiencies', and the lower his self-esteem. It's awful to think that only one person can survive an AS/NT marriage in good mental, emotional and physical health.

>Once again, I believe the NT and AS worlds collide like two race cars at full throttleLOL Great analogy. I once described myself as a car crash kind of person - perhaps that's why!! ;-) But I don't see AS as something my husband wants to get rid of - he wants to be left alone with it. My son...that's something else. He wants to fit in, be 'accepted' - and it's difficult to say (as I do) that he must find self-acceptance first. I find him fascinating. And i admire him for the way he thinks and his intelligence.

It is beginning to be acknowledged here in the UK that children with AS from the age of 11 upwards need a different kind of education. But it's going to be a long time coming. We need to adapt to their way of learning - we do that for 'mainstream' kids - there is an acknowledgement that there are different ways of learning. But AS is different again - a different way of thinking - it's too different to fit in to the average classroom. We do need specialist facilities and services for highly intelligent people - not patronising ones!!

A

WD Loughman wrote:

Recommended:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?

id=71fae5dc-7eb5-48fd-8f60-78deebee9879 & p=1

This might interest/alarm/provoke those among us who are " down " on AS

and the autism-spectrum. I hope it does.

Janet Zimmerman wrote:

Who among us is down on the AS and autism spectrum? I repeat:

anyone who is down on AS would not bother to take the time to follow

the posts on this list. I say if anyone is down on the autistic

community, they will avoid such and go elsewhere .

Anita Writes:

The article, as well as the general sense of what Dawson is trying to

achieve is in response to those who feel they would like to develop,

treatments, medications, strategies, etc. to eradicate autism from the

population. It all sounds like a great idea as a concept. Until one

reads the " other " stuff that has previously gone with this ideology

and perhaps may still be going on like aversion therapy where a

patient is made to feel bad, is chastised, or actually be

electronically shocked if they give a wrong answer, or are not

comporting to what NT psychiatrists tout as " normal. "

Dawson argues against people who make analogies to autism as a

" cancer " that must be cut out and destroyed. She takes great issue

with many of these ideas. I think 's last, rather cordial email

to me on the list about maladaptive behaviors fishtails Dawson's

point. I believe she is advocating for autistics to be " left alone "

to be autistic. Therefore anyone who attempts to do anything about

autism, even utilizing Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) is viewed as

contrary to The Autism Acceptance Project of which she is a huge

proponent.

Once again, I believe the NT and AS worlds collide like two race cars

at full throttle. An NT looks at autism as something even the

autistic can't wait to get rid of, but NT ends up being wrong because

AS doesn't translate to AS that way. AS doesn't seem to cause a

person to want to be rid of it in the NT sense, it just causes them to

want to be alone with it in the AS sense.

So the original posters comment " those among us who are down on AS " is

representative of an AS who is in agreement with Dawson, that autism

should be left alone to be what it is. It also attempts to provoke NT

on the list (because I sense AS wouldn't be alarmed or provoked by the

concept of being left alone).

The interest/alarm/provocation is with NT thought on this subject.

Most NT who have interacted or been married to AS want nothing more

than a " cure " for it with an eye toward eradicating it from the planet

so people don't have to suffer. (The suffering one's being NT's.) AS

(to greater or lesser degrees) have no passionate desire to do

anything about AS because they are AS.

- NT more often than not cannot be in a relationship with AS

- AS more often than not cannot be in a relationship with AS

- AS has a tough time in mainstream schools when they are young

- AS has a tough time in mainstream society when they are older

The Dawson article raises some incredible questions about education,

employment, health care, relationships, who's responsible and a slew

of other issues that bubble up if AS, autism is just left to be what

it is.

Perhaps it would be fruitful if a discussion could go forward about

the issues that bubble up as a result of Dawson's advocacy. Would it

all be good if Dawson was successful, or would there be a lot of

unanswered questions or problems that need to be working out first?

Regards,

Anita NT 55

[Guest guest]

Astryngia wrote:

> That's a great link - thanks for that, Bill. And I agree absolutely that

> AS is happy being AS. And can be just as badly damaged by relating to

> NT as NT is in relating to AS. Sadly. The stronger I grew and the

> better I recognised my own individuality, and set my own boundaries, the

> more my husband sufferered, grew less confident, became more aware of

> his own 'deficiencies', and the lower his self-esteem. It's awful to

> think that only one person can survive an AS/NT marriage in good mental,

> emotional and physical health.

[ snip ]

That " ...only one person can survive... " simply! isn't! true!

Bill, 75, AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Re-reading my own last post...

Sorry! It came out much more harshly than I wanted. " Freudian " slip?

I dunno.

Any marriage, any relationship of any kind, carries some risk of, er,

dissatisfaction, to one partner or the other. Or to both. That was the

point of my Bhagavad-Gita mention a few days ago.

*This* list sees the worse side of NT/AS relationships. Most of the

books, articles, and anecdotes " out there " portray the worse side. Even

while trying to be generally update, they do that through use of words

like " suffering " or even just " therapy " .

Thats only one side. *Of course* there is another.

One case does not a valid scientific study make. But I and my wife are

at least one case. *This* NT/AS marriage is doing well, as are the

human bodies and minds within it.

It can be done. What I/we can do, others can do. And I'm absolutely

certain others have. But they're scarce on this List.

- Bill, 75, AS; ...a little too feisty sometimes.

WD Loughman wrote:

> Astryngia wrote:

>

>>That's a great link - thanks for that, Bill. And I agree absolutely that

>>AS is happy being AS. And can be just as badly damaged by relating to

>>NT as NT is in relating to AS. Sadly. The stronger I grew and the

>>better I recognised my own individuality, and set my own boundaries, the

>>more my husband sufferered, grew less confident, became more aware of

>>his own 'deficiencies', and the lower his self-esteem. It's awful to

>>think that only one person can survive an AS/NT marriage in good mental,

>>emotional and physical health.

>

> [ snip ]

>

> That " ...only one person can survive... " simply! isn't! true!

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Anita Wrote:

" Dawson argues against people who make analogies to autism as " cancer "

that must be cut out and destroyed. She takes great issue with many of

these ideas. I think 's last, rather cordial email to me on the

list about maladaptive behaviors fishtails Dawson's

point. "

Asks:

" errrm whats fishtail mean? "

I'm not sure if it's a wholly American expression. If you could

imagine two fish swimming side by side, their movements would be in

sync with the other, presumably because that's the way fish swim.

Your last substantive post to me about maladaptive behaviors sent a

clear message regarding the " pretense " that is part and parcel of an

AS day (to lesser or greater degrees) and how, essentially AS would

prefer to be left alone to just be AS without the pretense.

So, if you and Dawson were metaphorically swimming together, your

ideology would be " fish-tailing " and each of your metaphorical

swimming motions would be in sync with the other.

Like I said, it's an expression simply meant to mean I sensed you were

in agreement with Dawson.

Regards,

Anita 55 NT

[Guest guest]

srabande wrote: Anita Writes:The article, as well as the general sense of what Dawson is trying toachieve is in response to those who feel they would like to develop,treatments, medications, strategies, etc. to eradicate autism from thepopulation. It all sounds like a great idea as a concept. Until onereads the "other" stuff that has previously gone with this ideologyand perhaps may still be going on like aversion therapy where apatient is made to feel bad, is chastised, or actually

beelectronically shocked if they give a wrong answer, or are notcomporting to what NT psychiatrists tout as "normal." me here: yeah i heard of this. i would like to volunteer for it. would take as many out as i could. ( your laughing because you think i am joking) you said:Dawson argues against people who make analogies to autism as a"cancer" that must be cut out and destroyed. She takes great issuewith many of these ideas. I think 's last, rather cordial emailto me on the list about maladaptive behaviors fishtails Dawson'spoint. I believe she is advocating for autistics to be "left alone"to be autistic. Therefore anyone who attempts to do anything aboutautism, even utilizing Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) is viewed ascontrary to The Autism Acceptance Project of which she is a hugeproponent. me here: ok now i know what a fishtail is in this CONTEXT i can agree, except i have never heard of dawson. in ausralia, when you lose control of your car on a wet surface and your front wheels go right and your back wheels go left and your motion is in a forward direction. and then the car reaches a point where the wheels go the other way, we call this fishtailing......usually ends up in a crash. you said:Once again, I believe the NT and AS worlds collide like two race carsat full throttle. me here: this is why i was confused. you said: An NT looks at autism as something even theautistic can't wait to get rid of, me here: if this is so, then this is unhealthy. you said: but NT ends up being wrong becauseAS doesn't translate to AS that way. AS doesn't seem to cause aperson to

want to be rid of it in the NT sense, it just causes them towant to be alone with it in the AS sense.So the original posters comment "those among us who are down on AS" isrepresentative of an AS who is in agreement with Dawson, that autismshould be left alone to be what it is. It also attempts to provoke NTon the list (because I sense AS wouldn't be alarmed or provoked by theconcept of being left alone). The interest/alarm/provocation is with NT thought on this subject. Most NT who have interacted or been married to AS want nothing morethan a "cure" for it with an eye toward eradicating it from the planetso people don't have to suffer. (The suffering one's being NT's.) AS(to greater or lesser degrees) have no passionate desire to doanything about AS because they are AS. me here: while your going the right way your not entirely correct in my opinion. I as a father of an AS child do

want to educate people about it. i as an AS do accept and embrace my AS. you said:- NT more often than not cannot be in a relationship with AS- AS more often than not cannot be in a relationship with AS- AS has a tough time in mainstream schools when they are young- AS has a tough time in mainstream society when they are olderThe Dawson article raises some incredible questions about education,employment, health care, relationships, who's responsible and a slewof other issues that bubble up if AS, autism is just left to be whatit is. Perhaps it would be fruitful if a discussion could go forward aboutthe issues that bubble up as a result of Dawson's advocacy. Would itall be good if Dawson was successful, or would there be a lot ofunanswered questions or problems that need to be working out first?Regards,Anita NT 55 me here: never heard of dawson, glad she agrees with me. 36 m diagnosed AS doesnt only like to be alone, i like to swim alone........no other fish in the vicinity please.

Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately I don't have enough time to participate much on this

list... I really wish I did.

I just want to say that I am NT with an AS husband and we have a good

relationship now.

We are able to resolve conflict instead of going round in circles,

express our needs in a way that the other can understand and respond

sensitively to, and we are both making the necessary changes in our

behaviour to allow our relationship to thrive.

I guess we are learning how to communicate successfully with each other

- which is the crux of any relationship and will be different for every

couple.

My experience is that the more I understand my partner, the less

anxious he is, the more able he is to be in a relationship and the more

he can understand me. And none of this is achieved at either person's

expense. Both of us are happy.

It's difficult to explain.....

Anyway.... it's not just Bill and his wife who can do it!

I wish everyone who is on this journey the same success.

Delyth

[Guest guest]

Thank you! You and Bill give me much hope. My wife and I have only begun to address our relationship in terms of AS/NT issues and there is a lot of ground to cover still. There's also the pain my wife feels with learning of the loss (NT/NT relationship) we can never have. It's a very difficult imbalance because in my eyes I have always been happily married with the exception of knowing how unhappily married my wife has been. I want to change what I can for her and I want her to know how much I love and appreciate her but all too often I'm completely oblivious of the things I thoughtlessly say or do that makes her feel just the

opposite. But there's hope!

Ben

Re: Interest/Alarm/Provoke or Discuss? Yes Discuss, that's it.

Unfortunately I don't have enough time to participate much on this list... I really wish I did.I just want to say that I am NT with an AS husband and we have a good relationship now.We are able to resolve conflict instead of going round in circles, express our needs in a way that the other can understand and respond sensitively to, and we are both making the necessary changes in our behaviour to allow our relationship to thrive.I guess we are learning how to communicate successfully with each other - which is the crux of any relationship and will be different for every couple.My experience is that the more I understand my partner, the less anxious he is, the more able he is to be in a relationship and the more he can understand me. And none of this is achieved at either person's expense. Both of us are happy.It's difficult to explain.....Anyway.... it's not just Bill and

his wife who can do it!I wish everyone who is on this journey the same success.Delyth

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.