Re: Mark Henry - Powerlifting to Olympic Lifting?

[Guest guest]

There was an excellent review in a recent Strength and Conditioning Journal

concerning the merits of both weightlifting and powerlifting for athletic

performance.

Powerlifting Versus Weightlifting for Athletic Performance

Chiu, Favre et al.,

doi: 10.1519/1533-4295(2007)29[55:PVWFAP]2.0.CO;2

Strength and Conditioning Journal: Vol. 29, No. 5, pp. 55–57.

Extracts:

ABSTRACT

Most current strength and conditioning programs for athletic

performance rely greatly on weightlift-ing methodology. In recent

years, coaches associated with powerlifting have promoted the

benefits of powerlifting methodology. Both methodologies have merit

in the training of athletes for enhanced performance. Thus,

weightlifting and powerlifting should not be considered competing but

rather complimentary methodologies....

In addition to various kinetic considerations, it is also important

to consider the kinematics of each sport. If one analyzes common

sporting actions, a frequently recurring position is the " power

position, " characterized by the athlete standing with slightly flexed

hips and knees similar to the starting position of a vertical jump.

This position has favorable leverages, allowing the athlete to move

quickly in response to a given stimulus during competition. One

benefit of weightlifting exercises is that during the second pull

phase of both the clean and snatch, a position similar to the

athletic power position is achieved. Therefore, extending the hips

and knees under load from this position would serve as a highly

specific training stimulus. While this is more than likely true, it

is not clear as to whether or not this training effect is limited to

weightlifting movements. For instance, during the powerlifting squat

and deadlift, the power position may be achieved under both maximal

and submaximal loading conditions. In addition, utilizing partial

range of motion exercises common in powerlifting training, such as

partial squats and presses, can be used to apply highly specific

overload stimuli necessary for many sports....

Recently, powerlifting training has evolved such that it is much more

similar to weightlifting training than may have been previously

thought. Despite differences regarding technique and specific rules

regarding equipment regulations, etc., both sports aspire to develop

extremely explosive and strong athletes.

The weightlifting movements also require great balance, coordination

(inter- and intramuscular), and flexibility, which are physical

qualities imperative in almost all sports. The rapid displays of

speed, quickness, agility, power, and strength observed in many

sports are executed in coordinated, full-body actions. These are also

qualities that need to be trained to be enhanced. Weightlifting

movements allow the athlete to train in such a manner in a controlled

environment. If an athlete wishes to compete explosively, then they

must train explosively.

The time intensiveness of teaching weightlifting technique is another

often cited argument. These lifts do require great skill to master.

This skill does not come easy or quickly, but neither do sporting

skills or championships. Proper exercise technique is the foundation

for future development. If proper technique (sporting, lifting, or

otherwise) is not established, the development of the athlete will

not be optimal. An experienced, certified coach can establish the

beginnings of sound technique in the power clean and or power snatch

with as little as 15–20 minutes each workout the first week.

In conclusion, maximal strength training is only half of the

equation (Power = force × velocity). Rather than one or the other, it

is the combination of both maximal strength training and explosive

weight training, in a sequenced manner, that will elicit the best

results for the strength and conditioning professional.

==================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

There was an excellent review in a recent Strength and Conditioning Journal

concerning the merits of both weightlifting and powerlifting for athletic

performance.

Powerlifting Versus Weightlifting for Athletic Performance

Chiu, Favre et al.,

doi: 10.1519/1533-4295(2007)29[55:PVWFAP]2.0.CO;2

Strength and Conditioning Journal: Vol. 29, No. 5, pp. 55–57.

Extracts:

ABSTRACT

Most current strength and conditioning programs for athletic

performance rely greatly on weightlift-ing methodology. In recent

years, coaches associated with powerlifting have promoted the

benefits of powerlifting methodology. Both methodologies have merit

in the training of athletes for enhanced performance. Thus,

weightlifting and powerlifting should not be considered competing but

rather complimentary methodologies....

In addition to various kinetic considerations, it is also important

to consider the kinematics of each sport. If one analyzes common

sporting actions, a frequently recurring position is the " power

position, " characterized by the athlete standing with slightly flexed

hips and knees similar to the starting position of a vertical jump.

This position has favorable leverages, allowing the athlete to move

quickly in response to a given stimulus during competition. One

benefit of weightlifting exercises is that during the second pull

phase of both the clean and snatch, a position similar to the

athletic power position is achieved. Therefore, extending the hips

and knees under load from this position would serve as a highly

specific training stimulus. While this is more than likely true, it

is not clear as to whether or not this training effect is limited to

weightlifting movements. For instance, during the powerlifting squat

and deadlift, the power position may be achieved under both maximal

and submaximal loading conditions. In addition, utilizing partial

range of motion exercises common in powerlifting training, such as

partial squats and presses, can be used to apply highly specific

overload stimuli necessary for many sports....

Recently, powerlifting training has evolved such that it is much more

similar to weightlifting training than may have been previously

thought. Despite differences regarding technique and specific rules

regarding equipment regulations, etc., both sports aspire to develop

extremely explosive and strong athletes.

The weightlifting movements also require great balance, coordination

(inter- and intramuscular), and flexibility, which are physical

qualities imperative in almost all sports. The rapid displays of

speed, quickness, agility, power, and strength observed in many

sports are executed in coordinated, full-body actions. These are also

qualities that need to be trained to be enhanced. Weightlifting

movements allow the athlete to train in such a manner in a controlled

environment. If an athlete wishes to compete explosively, then they

must train explosively.

The time intensiveness of teaching weightlifting technique is another

often cited argument. These lifts do require great skill to master.

This skill does not come easy or quickly, but neither do sporting

skills or championships. Proper exercise technique is the foundation

for future development. If proper technique (sporting, lifting, or

otherwise) is not established, the development of the athlete will

not be optimal. An experienced, certified coach can establish the

beginnings of sound technique in the power clean and or power snatch

with as little as 15–20 minutes each workout the first week.

In conclusion, maximal strength training is only half of the

equation (Power = force × velocity). Rather than one or the other, it

is the combination of both maximal strength training and explosive

weight training, in a sequenced manner, that will elicit the best

results for the strength and conditioning professional.

==================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Damien states:

" You will find more athletes utilizing the 3 powerlifts as the core to

there training as these lifts are much more easier to master. "

Where? Not around here. Most of the kids are doing body building

training. Haven't seen any athletes doing Powerlifting as part of

their GPP in the last 40 years. Not in prep school, college, Olympic

or professinal sports. You should come to the California State High

School Clean and Jerk contest that is held bi-annually here in San

Diego. Many schools, like nationally renowned Mater Dei in Orange

county send all their athletes and their cheerleaders to compete.

Dozens of high schools all over California compete. We have hundreds

of kids, boys and girls, executing this incredibly complex and

difficult lift. Olympic Weightlifting is so technical and difficult

Mike Burgener teaches the Olympic lifts as part of the coed PE

curriculum at a middle class, multi racial high school in Vista Ca.

Mike's PE kids have to demonstrate proficiency to get a passing grade.

Check out Mike's web site: http://www.mikesgym.org/

Access Mike's Gym videos here:

http://www.mikesgym.org/gallery/gallery.php?show=gallery & galleryID=26

Among them is a 16 yr old, Moser, snatching 140kg. Yes the

Powerlifts are easier to do, but its been our experience, Mike

Burgener and myself, that the biggest impediment to kids is not enough

Weightlifting coaches.

Damien states:

" he idea of utilizing the full OL lifts for athletes, non weightlifing

athletes, is not efficient. "

Tell that to the coaches of the kids mentioned above. What non

Weightlifting athletes? Name a sport that you can't do better with

more speed-strength, joint integrity and full range of motion of the

joints? Chess?

I can't remember the last time one of my prep Weightlifting athletes,

from basketball to tennis to wrestling got beat by a non Weightlifting

trained athlete.

Damien states:

" I get the feeling that we as a group some time lose this covenant due

to the passions that each individual has for a particular style of

training with weights. "

What are you talking about? What covenant? We are supposed to be

engaged in a science based dialogue to determine the most efficacious

methods for athlete development. There is no passion for " a particular

style of training " . Only a passion for optimized training. We're

trying to modify the most complex thing in the universe, the human

body. There's no room for passion, only empirical evidence, science

and results.

Damien:

" The skill, flexibility, coordination and strength to perform a true

deep catch snatch are high. "

This unqualified statement is already addressed above. However,

" skill, flexibility and strength " are rather basic requirements of

being an athlete. The skill can be quickly learned, particularly if

the coach is experienced. Go back and look at that video of 16 yr old

Moser. I used to help Mike Burgener put on clinics for prep

football coaches who often maintained Weightlifting was too difficult

for high school kids to learn. Then we brought out Mike's 6 yr old

daughter to demonstrate the lifts with a special 20 lb aluminum bar.

Our point was driven home quite forcefully. The kids could learn the

lifts, the coaches just didn't know how to teach them.

The remainder of your post is fairly obvious if not entirely accurate.

Your final point is addressed separately in separate post.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

> >

> > I don't think the fact an elite athlete uses a system as supplementary

> > training can be used to demonstrate efficacy. I recall Mike

Singletary,

> > the middle linebacker for Chicago Bears, used a gigantic 'twist'

machine

> > and eschewed weight training. It was hard to argue with his success -

> > the hall of fame isn't an easy place to get to. There are numerous

> > training modalities used by various athletes as supplementary

training -

> > everything from ballet to weightlifting.

> >

> > I could certainly see an offensive lineman using the box squat of

> > westside. I also thing the squat is one of those basic movements that

> > most athletes should be using. Bill's excellent post on the

requirements

> > to develop as an elite weightlifter are a good argument for _not_

using

> > olympic style weightlifting movements as supplementary training. You

> > spend so much time learning technique. Having said that, I think

you can

> > still use the clean and power snatch to good effect as supplementary

> > training without an elite level mastery of technique.

> >

> > But there is little need to do so. You don't need to learn to clean or

> > snatch. You could simply perform a back squat for strength, a high

pull

> > for power and use jump training for speed and you'd have a pretty good

> > leg/hip/core program for many athletes.

> >

> > One of the things I enjoy about weightlifting is the challenge of

> > technique and flexibility. I would never go back to powerlifting -

> > although if they would eliminate the support gear I'd be more

likely to

> > do so. I enjoy the 'athletic' aspect of olympic style

weightlifting. Of

> > course, I've found an excuse to deadlift, which should keep

> > somewhat mollified about my position.

> >

> > Anyhow, the point is: there is more than one road to Rome and more

than

> > one way for athletes to develop physical, motor and mental skills with

> > supplementary training. But if you want to be an Olympic lifter -

> > perform the classic lifts, squat and jump.

> >

> > :^)

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

In your haste to tear my post apart you failed to read the words " the three

powerlifts " as the squat, bench , deadlift and read them as " powerlifting

training " .. I did not say " powerlifting training " . I really must ask, Do you

think there are more kids doing the snatch and clean and jerk than there are

kids squatting, benching and deadlifting across this country. Practically every

program from highschool through prep school , college, Olympic and pro sports

squat , bench , deadlift and of course they throw in the power clean as core

lifts. Bodybuilding training incorporates benching, squatting and deadlifting

so I guess the kids around where you are located do the 3 powerlifts. So you

haven't seen these lifts performed in 40 years? Reviewing the information at

your friend Mike's website he incorporates the bench press and various squats

into his athletes workouts.

BTW..His gym looks like an incredible place to train. His students are fortunate

to have such a dedicated educator. I tip my hat to his work.

While your sarcasm regarding the difficulty of the Olympic lifts is appreciated,

the fact is that snatching is more difficult than squatting, benching and

deadlifting. The majority of people do not exhibit the general flexibility to

execute the snatch properly. That is not to say it is not attainable by many

with work it just has a longer curve than teaching the squat, bench, deadlift.

I would also agree that there is not enough qualified weightlifting coaches.

You also do not need to excel at the Oly lifts to excel at sports. You stated "

Name a sport that you can't do better with more speed-strength, joint integrity

and full range of motion of the joints. " You may not realize this but you can

train for those 3 elements without ever doing an OLY lift.

Wow! Your kids never lose? That is one hell of a program.

You state :We are supposed to be

engaged in a science based dialog to determine the most efficacious

methods for athlete development. There is no passion for " a particular

style of training " . Only a passion for optimized training. We're trying to

modify the most complex thing in the universe, the human

body. There's no room for passion, only empirical evidence, science

and results.

Bill your job as a coach is to provide the tools to increase athletic

performance not produce Olympic weightlifters. Empirical evidence, science and

results I guess you ignore the results if they do not fit your beliefs. There

are a huge number of successful athletes who strength train that have never

completed an Olympic lift. If you travel the country you would see that a great

many successful programs do not use the Olympic lifts as a core to their

program.

I do not disagree that you can produce results with OLY lifting however you seem

to have a passion only for utilizing that type of training while eliminating the

possibility that other methods work as well. So do I think your biased...yes. Do

I think you ignore evidence that other programs work as well...yes.

Skill , flexibility and strength are basic requirements of being an athlete (not

always) however you can attain these qualities without ever completing an

Olympic lift.

Continued success with the kids. They are lucky to have a group of coaches who

have a desire to provide the tools for athletic improvement.

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh, PA.

Re: Mark Henry - Powerlifting to Olympic Lifting?

Damien states:

" You will find more athletes utilizing the 3 powerlifts as the core to

there training as these lifts are much more easier to master. "

Where? Not around here. Most of the kids are doing body building

training. Haven't seen any athletes doing Powerlifting as part of

their GPP in the last 40 years. Not in prep school, college, Olympic

or professinal sports. You should come to the California State High

School Clean and Jerk contest that is held bi-annually here in San

Diego. Many schools, like nationally renowned Mater Dei in Orange

county send all their athletes and their cheerleaders to compete.

Dozens of high schools all over California compete. We have hundreds

of kids, boys and girls, executing this incredibly complex and

difficult lift. Olympic Weightlifting is so technical and difficult

Mike Burgener teaches the Olympic lifts as part of the coed PE

curriculum at a middle class, multi racial high school in Vista Ca.

Mike's PE kids have to demonstrate proficiency to get a passing grade.

Check out Mike's web site: http://www.mikesgym .org/

Access Mike's Gym videos here:

http://www.mikesgym .org/gallery/ gallery.php? show=gallery & galleryID= 26

Among them is a 16 yr old, Moser, snatching 140kg. Yes the

Powerlifts are easier to do, but its been our experience, Mike

Burgener and myself, that the biggest impediment to kids is not enough

Weightlifting coaches.

Damien states:

" he idea of utilizing the full OL lifts for athletes, non weightlifing

athletes, is not efficient. "

Tell that to the coaches of the kids mentioned above. What non

Weightlifting athletes? Name a sport that you can't do better with

more speed-strength, joint integrity and full range of motion of the

joints? Chess?

I can't remember the last time one of my prep Weightlifting athletes,

from basketball to tennis to wrestling got beat by a non Weightlifting

trained athlete.

Damien states:

" I get the feeling that we as a group some time lose this covenant due

to the passions that each individual has for a particular style of

training with weights. "

What are you talking about? What covenant? We are supposed to be

engaged in a science based dialogue to determine the most efficacious

methods for athlete development. There is no passion for " a particular

style of training " . Only a passion for optimized training. We're

trying to modify the most complex thing in the universe, the human

body. There's no room for passion, only empirical evidence, science

and results.

Damien:

" The skill, flexibility, coordination and strength to perform a true

deep catch snatch are high. "

This unqualified statement is already addressed above. However,

" skill, flexibility and strength " are rather basic requirements of

being an athlete. The skill can be quickly learned, particularly if

the coach is experienced. Go back and look at that video of 16 yr old

Moser. I used to help Mike Burgener put on clinics for prep

football coaches who often maintained Weightlifting was too difficult

for high school kids to learn. Then we brought out Mike's 6 yr old

daughter to demonstrate the lifts with a special 20 lb aluminum bar.

Our point was driven home quite forcefully. The kids could learn the

lifts, the coaches just didn't know how to teach them.

The remainder of your post is fairly obvious if not entirely accurate.

Your final point is addressed separately in separate post.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

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