Re: creating healthy friendships

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

You wrote:

<<

Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have " fooled " me

many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying

in relationships with people who betrayed me only served to

lower my self esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been.

But I think, because I was so conditioned to see this as normal

family behavior, it took me a long time to actually see it for

what it was.

>>

Not only that, but we are conditioned by our families (AND

society) to believe that families are sacred -- anyone who

severs ties with a family member must automatically be bad and

screwed up. The societal (and familial) pressure to maintain

ties with family members (even abusive ones -- emotionally,

verbally, physically, etc.) is immense. Don't beat yourself up

for doing this!

<<

I questioned my own perception of everything for years, only to

recently realize that my perception was just fine, it was the

people around me who were crazy.

>>

Good for you! It's nice to finally understand that, isn't it?

<<

I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

particular, have treated me badly and used me.

>>

I, too, have had abusive relationships -- both romantic and

friendships. You ask how people have dealt with this (the

friendships), and I'm not sure I have a clear answer. Each of

mine has resolved itself in a unique manner, and most have

seemed to fade away mutually (thankfully). I haven't really

been put in a position of having to confront and draw a

boundary, so I fear I'm not of much help here. I do urge you to

listen to your own thoughts and feelings. If you feel you are

not getting something out of the relationship, don't maintain it

simply out of fear, obligation, or guilt (FOG) -- that's what we

do with our families too.

<<

If so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

friendships?

>>

I only have a few friends that are very close (I know lots of

good people through my neighborhood, though). I met one through

school, two through my husband, and the other is a neighbor. If

I was feeling short on friends, though, I would look for people

that go places and do things that I like. For instance, I like

yoga, so perhaps I would sign up for a yoga class and try to

meet people there. I've always been interested in buddhism and

meditation, so perhaps I would join a buddhist temple or sign up

for meditation classes. I'm a big environmentalist, so maybe I

would become more active and volunteer for some of the local

groups I donate money to. I love photography, so maybe I would

sign up for a photography class and meet other people with the

same interests (BTW, I did sign up for a class, although I spent

all my time working on the craft and didn't pay too much

attention to the people, since that wasn't important to me.

Loved the class, though!). There's a Unitarian church near my

house that has all sorts of neat programs -- including some

exclusively for women. Are you religious? What are your

interests? Do you like animals, gardening, crafts, cooking,

reading, music? There are all sorts of clubs, societies,

charities and local classes (through community colleges and

continuing ed). There are also some groups that organize group

travel -- for singles, couples, families, and some exclusively

for women (if you want more info, let me know and I'll dig it

up). If you're strapped for time and energy, then you might

want to pick one thing, and put a few hours a week into it

(you're worth it!). If you are not happy with something in your

life, you have to take responsibility for it, and try to do

right by yourself (even if it won't be very easy). Try not to

get discouraged, too. Close friends are very special, and it

may take some time to find someone that fits the bill.

I hope this helps, and best of luck and warm wishes from an

internet friend!

Anon

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> You know the old saying, " Fool me once shame on you, fool me

> twice shame

> on me? " Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have

> " fooled " me

> many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying

> in

> relationships with people who betrayed me only served to lower

> my self

> esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been. But I think,

> because I

> was so conditioned to see this as normal family behavior, it

> took me a

> long time to actually see it for what it was. Plus, whenever I

> did say

> something, I would get, " Oh Kathy, you are way too sensitive. "

> Which

> filled me with self doubt... I questioned my own perception of

> everything for years, only to recently realize that my

> perception was

> just fine, it was the people around me who were crazy.

>

> I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

> particular,

> have treated me badly and used me. On some level, I must be

> attracted to

> people who like to use other people. It's like a lock and key

> -- the

> user and the usee fit perfectly. It gets to the point where I

> simply let

> the " friendship " die. But I don't know how to go about making

> friends

> with women who don't use people. How do we (the abusive women

> and I)

> find each other??? I swear we all have energetic imprints that

> we pick

> up on subconsciously -- it's a familiar fit, but one that no

> longer

> works for me. So I find myself without friends now. I'm not in

> any great

> position to make friends right now. I am a nontraditional

> student, and

> most of the people in my program (including me) are older,

> commute to

> classes, and then go home to our families. I'm not working

> right now,

> because I want to finish grad school as fast as I can. I also

> have a

> daughter with some serious health issues who takes a lot of

> my time.

>

> Right now I am struggling with a long term friendship. Jan & I

> have

> known each other since kindergarten and were best friends

> through eighth

> grade. But it's a phone friendship, because we live hundreds

> of miles

> apart and haven't seen each other for 30 yrs. Over the years I

> feel like

> I've created the same role with her that I have with everyone.

> The

> listener. The counselor. The one who will always be there for

> everyone.

> Jan always seems to be in relationship crises -- she often has

> more than

> one therapist, a support group or two, and several friends she

> calls.

> I'm tired of that role, but it is hard to reprogram old

> dynamics.

> Especially 30-yr-old dynamics. Yet I feel funny ending a 30+

> year

> friendship. I don't know if it can be reshaped at this point,

> and I

> don't even know if I want to spend the energy trying! I have

> so many

> other things to attend to in my life. I seem to attract

> selfish,

> self-centered people. I seem to function as a container for

> others'

> overwhelming feelings. I'm sure this all served me well &

> helped me

> survive in a dysfunctional home. But it's getting REAL old at

> this

> point.

>

> Anyway, does anyone have a similar history (with " bad "

> friendships)? If

> so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

> friendships?

> I love the company of women who are authentic and have

> interesting

> things to talk about (besides other people). I've met many

> wonderful

> women over the Internet, but it would be nice to have a good

> friend or

> two close to home. Maybe when I start working again this will

> be easier.

>

> Kathy

>

> p.s. interesting that my post on " boundaries " has already

> shown up in my

> mailbox, but my earlier post on perfection has not come back

> to me

> yet... the mysteries of cyberspace! )

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

You wrote:

<<

Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have " fooled " me

many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying

in relationships with people who betrayed me only served to

lower my self esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been.

But I think, because I was so conditioned to see this as normal

family behavior, it took me a long time to actually see it for

what it was.

>>

Not only that, but we are conditioned by our families (AND

society) to believe that families are sacred -- anyone who

severs ties with a family member must automatically be bad and

screwed up. The societal (and familial) pressure to maintain

ties with family members (even abusive ones -- emotionally,

verbally, physically, etc.) is immense. Don't beat yourself up

for doing this!

<<

I questioned my own perception of everything for years, only to

recently realize that my perception was just fine, it was the

people around me who were crazy.

>>

Good for you! It's nice to finally understand that, isn't it?

<<

I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

particular, have treated me badly and used me.

>>

I, too, have had abusive relationships -- both romantic and

friendships. You ask how people have dealt with this (the

friendships), and I'm not sure I have a clear answer. Each of

mine has resolved itself in a unique manner, and most have

seemed to fade away mutually (thankfully). I haven't really

been put in a position of having to confront and draw a

boundary, so I fear I'm not of much help here. I do urge you to

listen to your own thoughts and feelings. If you feel you are

not getting something out of the relationship, don't maintain it

simply out of fear, obligation, or guilt (FOG) -- that's what we

do with our families too.

<<

If so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

friendships?

>>

I only have a few friends that are very close (I know lots of

good people through my neighborhood, though). I met one through

school, two through my husband, and the other is a neighbor. If

I was feeling short on friends, though, I would look for people

that go places and do things that I like. For instance, I like

yoga, so perhaps I would sign up for a yoga class and try to

meet people there. I've always been interested in buddhism and

meditation, so perhaps I would join a buddhist temple or sign up

for meditation classes. I'm a big environmentalist, so maybe I

would become more active and volunteer for some of the local

groups I donate money to. I love photography, so maybe I would

sign up for a photography class and meet other people with the

same interests (BTW, I did sign up for a class, although I spent

all my time working on the craft and didn't pay too much

attention to the people, since that wasn't important to me.

Loved the class, though!). There's a Unitarian church near my

house that has all sorts of neat programs -- including some

exclusively for women. Are you religious? What are your

interests? Do you like animals, gardening, crafts, cooking,

reading, music? There are all sorts of clubs, societies,

charities and local classes (through community colleges and

continuing ed). There are also some groups that organize group

travel -- for singles, couples, families, and some exclusively

for women (if you want more info, let me know and I'll dig it

up). If you're strapped for time and energy, then you might

want to pick one thing, and put a few hours a week into it

(you're worth it!). If you are not happy with something in your

life, you have to take responsibility for it, and try to do

right by yourself (even if it won't be very easy). Try not to

get discouraged, too. Close friends are very special, and it

may take some time to find someone that fits the bill.

I hope this helps, and best of luck and warm wishes from an

internet friend!

Anon

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> You know the old saying, " Fool me once shame on you, fool me

> twice shame

> on me? " Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have

> " fooled " me

> many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying

> in

> relationships with people who betrayed me only served to lower

> my self

> esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been. But I think,

> because I

> was so conditioned to see this as normal family behavior, it

> took me a

> long time to actually see it for what it was. Plus, whenever I

> did say

> something, I would get, " Oh Kathy, you are way too sensitive. "

> Which

> filled me with self doubt... I questioned my own perception of

> everything for years, only to recently realize that my

> perception was

> just fine, it was the people around me who were crazy.

>

> I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

> particular,

> have treated me badly and used me. On some level, I must be

> attracted to

> people who like to use other people. It's like a lock and key

> -- the

> user and the usee fit perfectly. It gets to the point where I

> simply let

> the " friendship " die. But I don't know how to go about making

> friends

> with women who don't use people. How do we (the abusive women

> and I)

> find each other??? I swear we all have energetic imprints that

> we pick

> up on subconsciously -- it's a familiar fit, but one that no

> longer

> works for me. So I find myself without friends now. I'm not in

> any great

> position to make friends right now. I am a nontraditional

> student, and

> most of the people in my program (including me) are older,

> commute to

> classes, and then go home to our families. I'm not working

> right now,

> because I want to finish grad school as fast as I can. I also

> have a

> daughter with some serious health issues who takes a lot of

> my time.

>

> Right now I am struggling with a long term friendship. Jan & I

> have

> known each other since kindergarten and were best friends

> through eighth

> grade. But it's a phone friendship, because we live hundreds

> of miles

> apart and haven't seen each other for 30 yrs. Over the years I

> feel like

> I've created the same role with her that I have with everyone.

> The

> listener. The counselor. The one who will always be there for

> everyone.

> Jan always seems to be in relationship crises -- she often has

> more than

> one therapist, a support group or two, and several friends she

> calls.

> I'm tired of that role, but it is hard to reprogram old

> dynamics.

> Especially 30-yr-old dynamics. Yet I feel funny ending a 30+

> year

> friendship. I don't know if it can be reshaped at this point,

> and I

> don't even know if I want to spend the energy trying! I have

> so many

> other things to attend to in my life. I seem to attract

> selfish,

> self-centered people. I seem to function as a container for

> others'

> overwhelming feelings. I'm sure this all served me well &

> helped me

> survive in a dysfunctional home. But it's getting REAL old at

> this

> point.

>

> Anyway, does anyone have a similar history (with " bad "

> friendships)? If

> so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

> friendships?

> I love the company of women who are authentic and have

> interesting

> things to talk about (besides other people). I've met many

> wonderful

> women over the Internet, but it would be nice to have a good

> friend or

> two close to home. Maybe when I start working again this will

> be easier.

>

> Kathy

>

> p.s. interesting that my post on " boundaries " has already

> shown up in my

> mailbox, but my earlier post on perfection has not come back

> to me

> yet... the mysteries of cyberspace! )

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

You wrote:

<<

Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have " fooled " me

many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying

in relationships with people who betrayed me only served to

lower my self esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been.

But I think, because I was so conditioned to see this as normal

family behavior, it took me a long time to actually see it for

what it was.

>>

Not only that, but we are conditioned by our families (AND

society) to believe that families are sacred -- anyone who

severs ties with a family member must automatically be bad and

screwed up. The societal (and familial) pressure to maintain

ties with family members (even abusive ones -- emotionally,

verbally, physically, etc.) is immense. Don't beat yourself up

for doing this!

<<

I questioned my own perception of everything for years, only to

recently realize that my perception was just fine, it was the

people around me who were crazy.

>>

Good for you! It's nice to finally understand that, isn't it?

<<

I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

particular, have treated me badly and used me.

>>

I, too, have had abusive relationships -- both romantic and

friendships. You ask how people have dealt with this (the

friendships), and I'm not sure I have a clear answer. Each of

mine has resolved itself in a unique manner, and most have

seemed to fade away mutually (thankfully). I haven't really

been put in a position of having to confront and draw a

boundary, so I fear I'm not of much help here. I do urge you to

listen to your own thoughts and feelings. If you feel you are

not getting something out of the relationship, don't maintain it

simply out of fear, obligation, or guilt (FOG) -- that's what we

do with our families too.

<<

If so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

friendships?

>>

I only have a few friends that are very close (I know lots of

good people through my neighborhood, though). I met one through

school, two through my husband, and the other is a neighbor. If

I was feeling short on friends, though, I would look for people

that go places and do things that I like. For instance, I like

yoga, so perhaps I would sign up for a yoga class and try to

meet people there. I've always been interested in buddhism and

meditation, so perhaps I would join a buddhist temple or sign up

for meditation classes. I'm a big environmentalist, so maybe I

would become more active and volunteer for some of the local

groups I donate money to. I love photography, so maybe I would

sign up for a photography class and meet other people with the

same interests (BTW, I did sign up for a class, although I spent

all my time working on the craft and didn't pay too much

attention to the people, since that wasn't important to me.

Loved the class, though!). There's a Unitarian church near my

house that has all sorts of neat programs -- including some

exclusively for women. Are you religious? What are your

interests? Do you like animals, gardening, crafts, cooking,

reading, music? There are all sorts of clubs, societies,

charities and local classes (through community colleges and

continuing ed). There are also some groups that organize group

travel -- for singles, couples, families, and some exclusively

for women (if you want more info, let me know and I'll dig it

up). If you're strapped for time and energy, then you might

want to pick one thing, and put a few hours a week into it

(you're worth it!). If you are not happy with something in your

life, you have to take responsibility for it, and try to do

right by yourself (even if it won't be very easy). Try not to

get discouraged, too. Close friends are very special, and it

may take some time to find someone that fits the bill.

I hope this helps, and best of luck and warm wishes from an

internet friend!

Anon

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> You know the old saying, " Fool me once shame on you, fool me

> twice shame

> on me? " Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have

> " fooled " me

> many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying

> in

> relationships with people who betrayed me only served to lower

> my self

> esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been. But I think,

> because I

> was so conditioned to see this as normal family behavior, it

> took me a

> long time to actually see it for what it was. Plus, whenever I

> did say

> something, I would get, " Oh Kathy, you are way too sensitive. "

> Which

> filled me with self doubt... I questioned my own perception of

> everything for years, only to recently realize that my

> perception was

> just fine, it was the people around me who were crazy.

>

> I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

> particular,

> have treated me badly and used me. On some level, I must be

> attracted to

> people who like to use other people. It's like a lock and key

> -- the

> user and the usee fit perfectly. It gets to the point where I

> simply let

> the " friendship " die. But I don't know how to go about making

> friends

> with women who don't use people. How do we (the abusive women

> and I)

> find each other??? I swear we all have energetic imprints that

> we pick

> up on subconsciously -- it's a familiar fit, but one that no

> longer

> works for me. So I find myself without friends now. I'm not in

> any great

> position to make friends right now. I am a nontraditional

> student, and

> most of the people in my program (including me) are older,

> commute to

> classes, and then go home to our families. I'm not working

> right now,

> because I want to finish grad school as fast as I can. I also

> have a

> daughter with some serious health issues who takes a lot of

> my time.

>

> Right now I am struggling with a long term friendship. Jan & I

> have

> known each other since kindergarten and were best friends

> through eighth

> grade. But it's a phone friendship, because we live hundreds

> of miles

> apart and haven't seen each other for 30 yrs. Over the years I

> feel like

> I've created the same role with her that I have with everyone.

> The

> listener. The counselor. The one who will always be there for

> everyone.

> Jan always seems to be in relationship crises -- she often has

> more than

> one therapist, a support group or two, and several friends she

> calls.

> I'm tired of that role, but it is hard to reprogram old

> dynamics.

> Especially 30-yr-old dynamics. Yet I feel funny ending a 30+

> year

> friendship. I don't know if it can be reshaped at this point,

> and I

> don't even know if I want to spend the energy trying! I have

> so many

> other things to attend to in my life. I seem to attract

> selfish,

> self-centered people. I seem to function as a container for

> others'

> overwhelming feelings. I'm sure this all served me well &

> helped me

> survive in a dysfunctional home. But it's getting REAL old at

> this

> point.

>

> Anyway, does anyone have a similar history (with " bad "

> friendships)? If

> so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

> friendships?

> I love the company of women who are authentic and have

> interesting

> things to talk about (besides other people). I've met many

> wonderful

> women over the Internet, but it would be nice to have a good

> friend or

> two close to home. Maybe when I start working again this will

> be easier.

>

> Kathy

>

> p.s. interesting that my post on " boundaries " has already

> shown up in my

> mailbox, but my earlier post on perfection has not come back

> to me

> yet... the mysteries of cyberspace! )

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy

Yes, I've noticed the tendency you've mentioned. My friends at school were

all normal, cheerful girls, but as soon as I left home I started attracting

women friends who were either MI (I suspect) or who needed me to listen to

neverending emotional problems for hours at a time. I have broken off a few

of these friendships, sadly but necessarily.

More recently, I've met some people who seem gentle and comfortable with

themselves. Men friends seem to be OK, no problems there.

It's definitely to do with the role nada forced on me, she was a great

complainer and extremely demanding of my attention and energy. She used to

dump her depressions and other afflictions on me when I was still a kid, I

could hardly understand what she was experiencing. No boundaries were

respected.

Take care

Minja

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy

Yes, I've noticed the tendency you've mentioned. My friends at school were

all normal, cheerful girls, but as soon as I left home I started attracting

women friends who were either MI (I suspect) or who needed me to listen to

neverending emotional problems for hours at a time. I have broken off a few

of these friendships, sadly but necessarily.

More recently, I've met some people who seem gentle and comfortable with

themselves. Men friends seem to be OK, no problems there.

It's definitely to do with the role nada forced on me, she was a great

complainer and extremely demanding of my attention and energy. She used to

dump her depressions and other afflictions on me when I was still a kid, I

could hardly understand what she was experiencing. No boundaries were

respected.

Take care

Minja

[Guest guest]

> You know the old saying, " Fool me once shame on you, fool

me twice shame

> on me? " Well, there are a few people in my FOO that have

" fooled " me

> many times. I would replace " fooled " with " betrayed. " Staying in

> relationships with people who betrayed me only served to

lower my self

> esteem over the years. What a doormat I've been. But I think,

because I

> was so conditioned to see this as normal family behavior, it

took me a

> long time to actually see it for what it was. Plus, whenever I did

say

> something, I would get, " Oh Kathy, you are way too sensitive. "

Which

> filled me with self doubt... I questioned my own perception of

> everything for years, only to recently realize that my perception

was

> just fine, it was the people around me who were crazy.

I've had good friends when I've been away from the FOO. With

the FOO I was recruited by a religious cult, and actually saw it OK

to socialize with them as long as I didn't sign up. They were only

interested in recruiting so it was the ODDEST thing. In the end all

of those relationships were dropped.

After 9/11 I made the effort to get back in touch with them. It was

great.

>

> I also have had a string of abusive friendships. Women, in

particular,

> have treated me badly and used me. On some level, I must be

attracted to

> people who like to use other people. It's like a lock and key --

the

> user and the usee fit perfectly. It gets to the point where I

simply let

> the " friendship " die. But I don't know how to go about making

friends

> with women who don't use people. How do we (the abusive

women and I)

> find each other??? I swear we all have energetic imprints that

we pick

> up on subconsciously -- it's a familiar fit, but one that no longer

> works for me. So I find myself without friends now. I'm not in

any great

> position to make friends right now. I am a nontraditional

student, and

> most of the people in my program (including me) are older,

commute to

> classes, and then go home to our families. I'm not working

right now,

> because I want to finish grad school as fast as I can. I also

have a

> daughter with some serious health issues who takes a lot of

my time.

that is hard.....

>

> Right now I am struggling with a long term friendship. Jan & I

have

> known each other since kindergarten and were best friends

through eighth

> grade. But it's a phone friendship, because we live hundreds of

miles

> apart and haven't seen each other for 30 yrs. Over the years I

feel like

> I've created the same role with her that I have with everyone.

The

> listener. The counselor. The one who will always be there for

everyone.

> Jan always seems to be in relationship crises -- she often has

more than

> one therapist, a support group or two, and several friends she

calls.

> I'm tired of that role, but it is hard to reprogram old dynamics.

> Especially 30-yr-old dynamics. Yet I feel funny ending a 30+

year

> friendship. I don't know if it can be reshaped at this point, and I

> don't even know if I want to spend the energy trying! I have so

many

> other things to attend to in my life. I seem to attract selfish,

> self-centered people. I seem to function as a container for

others'

> overwhelming feelings. I'm sure this all served me well &

helped me

> survive in a dysfunctional home. But it's getting REAL old at this

> point.

>

> Anyway, does anyone have a similar history (with " bad "

friendships)? If

> so, have you found a better way to meet and develop healthy

friendships?

> I love the company of women who are authentic and have

interesting

> things to talk about (besides other people). I've met many

wonderful

> women over the Internet, but it would be nice to have a good

friend or

> two close to home. Maybe when I start working again this will

be easier.

Kathy....I count on my Internet friends for daily support. I have one

geographical friend who I buy antiques from. She is about 60

(I'm 45) and we share a lot. She is also French and I've been

through her daughter's wedding planning, and she's been

through my sister's death and divorce from nada. She has come

to dinner.

I would like to belong to a women's group, maybe a reading club.

That is on my list of things to do after Christmas.

I keep in touch with my old friends over the Internet, but it seems

that we are in this situation where they are in the middle of kids

and jobs and it is hard.

I do socialize with my inlaws and realized I do enjoy their

company and their network of friends who are sort of familiar

faces now that I've been in their family for 17 years.

I would like to have some more pop in drop in friends, but I am

still " waiting to meet them " (putting that in a positive light

I went through a period of attracting real using people (religious

culties). I got so sick of people calling me up to babysit their kids

or go to some retreat at their house.

I finally got to the point of preferring to be geographically alone

rather than deal with all the ups and downs of thinking someone

was interested in me but looking for a free babysitter. Having a

lot of kids sort of limits the social time anyway.....

Here's to a mentally healthier 2002!

Kathleen