Re: Forgiveness Article

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/16/2001 2:56:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Cyndie00@... writes:

>

> Forgiveness and letting go is a choice - it's not

> contingent upon whether or not the perpetrator goes to

> jail or whatever. We all want justice, but sometimes

> we all don't get it so we grow to learn that victory

> does come from the forgivenesses we find along the

> way. It's a release of negative energy and the bondage

> of it...

>

> Cyndie

>

>

Goodness, Cyndie - that was wonderful. I'd like to hear more.

Peace

Rob

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/16/2001 2:56:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Cyndie00@... writes:

>

> Forgiveness and letting go is a choice - it's not

> contingent upon whether or not the perpetrator goes to

> jail or whatever. We all want justice, but sometimes

> we all don't get it so we grow to learn that victory

> does come from the forgivenesses we find along the

> way. It's a release of negative energy and the bondage

> of it...

>

> Cyndie

>

>

Goodness, Cyndie - that was wonderful. I'd like to hear more.

Peace

Rob

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/16/2001 2:56:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Cyndie00@... writes:

>

> Forgiveness and letting go is a choice - it's not

> contingent upon whether or not the perpetrator goes to

> jail or whatever. We all want justice, but sometimes

> we all don't get it so we grow to learn that victory

> does come from the forgivenesses we find along the

> way. It's a release of negative energy and the bondage

> of it...

>

> Cyndie

>

>

Goodness, Cyndie - that was wonderful. I'd like to hear more.

Peace

Rob

[Guest guest]

Cyndie,

I think we are really are on the same page, just expressing it differently.

One of the defense mechanisms I have developed over the years is to filter

everything I hear and read and take the parts that are helpful and edifying

and leave the rest behind...that is probably why I didn't focus on the absurd

notion that we have to wait for society or whomever to dethrone the

abuser...like that will ever happen with Megatron....ha-ha-ha-ha! I don't

accept that in most cases the legal system or the church or the FOO will ever

dethrone the nadas of the world...and waiting for the highly improbable is a

waste of time. Many people on this list suffered horrible physical abuse and

sexual abuse...which in a better world would've been stopped by someone...or

noticed by someone. Many others, me for example, suffered from very subtle,

yet viscious and damaging psychological and emotinal abuse. Things that

teachers ignored because there is no real " proof " . Things that extended

family members and friends didn't believe because Megatron was " such a sweet

woman, the salt of the earth really. " I read somewhere that high functioning

bps are more damaging because they are flying under the radar. I agree.

I take the issue of dethroning and use it personally. (And I don't really

connect it to forgiveness as much as a way to avoid further hurt.) I will

dethrone Megatron and stage a coup...reclaiming my own soul...which is what I

meant by:

" We become the caretakers of ourselves.  We give ourselves the things we need

to feel whole and worthy.  The tables are turned and nada is without the

power over ourselves...as much as it was our lack of reason and choice that

gave it to her in the first place. "  

I expect that the battle will be long and difficult. In the meantime, I do

the best I can.

If I have completely misunderstood you, I apologize. In the meantime, I have

a question...how can you possible forgive someone who never really

apologizes...someone who says things like " I don't know what I have ever

done, but I am sorry. " This isn't really an acknowledgement of wrong doing,

but a cop out, I think. And if I don't accept this as the " magic bullet " to

kill the animosity in the family, am I guilty of splitting?

YUKKKKK!

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Cyndie,

I think we are really are on the same page, just expressing it differently.

One of the defense mechanisms I have developed over the years is to filter

everything I hear and read and take the parts that are helpful and edifying

and leave the rest behind...that is probably why I didn't focus on the absurd

notion that we have to wait for society or whomever to dethrone the

abuser...like that will ever happen with Megatron....ha-ha-ha-ha! I don't

accept that in most cases the legal system or the church or the FOO will ever

dethrone the nadas of the world...and waiting for the highly improbable is a

waste of time. Many people on this list suffered horrible physical abuse and

sexual abuse...which in a better world would've been stopped by someone...or

noticed by someone. Many others, me for example, suffered from very subtle,

yet viscious and damaging psychological and emotinal abuse. Things that

teachers ignored because there is no real " proof " . Things that extended

family members and friends didn't believe because Megatron was " such a sweet

woman, the salt of the earth really. " I read somewhere that high functioning

bps are more damaging because they are flying under the radar. I agree.

I take the issue of dethroning and use it personally. (And I don't really

connect it to forgiveness as much as a way to avoid further hurt.) I will

dethrone Megatron and stage a coup...reclaiming my own soul...which is what I

meant by:

" We become the caretakers of ourselves.  We give ourselves the things we need

to feel whole and worthy.  The tables are turned and nada is without the

power over ourselves...as much as it was our lack of reason and choice that

gave it to her in the first place. "  

I expect that the battle will be long and difficult. In the meantime, I do

the best I can.

If I have completely misunderstood you, I apologize. In the meantime, I have

a question...how can you possible forgive someone who never really

apologizes...someone who says things like " I don't know what I have ever

done, but I am sorry. " This isn't really an acknowledgement of wrong doing,

but a cop out, I think. And if I don't accept this as the " magic bullet " to

kill the animosity in the family, am I guilty of splitting?

YUKKKKK!

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Cyndie,

I think we are really are on the same page, just expressing it differently.

One of the defense mechanisms I have developed over the years is to filter

everything I hear and read and take the parts that are helpful and edifying

and leave the rest behind...that is probably why I didn't focus on the absurd

notion that we have to wait for society or whomever to dethrone the

abuser...like that will ever happen with Megatron....ha-ha-ha-ha! I don't

accept that in most cases the legal system or the church or the FOO will ever

dethrone the nadas of the world...and waiting for the highly improbable is a

waste of time. Many people on this list suffered horrible physical abuse and

sexual abuse...which in a better world would've been stopped by someone...or

noticed by someone. Many others, me for example, suffered from very subtle,

yet viscious and damaging psychological and emotinal abuse. Things that

teachers ignored because there is no real " proof " . Things that extended

family members and friends didn't believe because Megatron was " such a sweet

woman, the salt of the earth really. " I read somewhere that high functioning

bps are more damaging because they are flying under the radar. I agree.

I take the issue of dethroning and use it personally. (And I don't really

connect it to forgiveness as much as a way to avoid further hurt.) I will

dethrone Megatron and stage a coup...reclaiming my own soul...which is what I

meant by:

" We become the caretakers of ourselves.  We give ourselves the things we need

to feel whole and worthy.  The tables are turned and nada is without the

power over ourselves...as much as it was our lack of reason and choice that

gave it to her in the first place. "  

I expect that the battle will be long and difficult. In the meantime, I do

the best I can.

If I have completely misunderstood you, I apologize. In the meantime, I have

a question...how can you possible forgive someone who never really

apologizes...someone who says things like " I don't know what I have ever

done, but I am sorry. " This isn't really an acknowledgement of wrong doing,

but a cop out, I think. And if I don't accept this as the " magic bullet " to

kill the animosity in the family, am I guilty of splitting?

YUKKKKK!

Debbie

[Guest guest]

--- sweepea1215@... wrote:

> Hey,

>

> I read the article and I think I get it and maybe I

> can explain what I think

> it is saying. I think the " hierarchy " issue goes to

> the fact that people can

> only hurt us if they are in a position of power.

Yes, I think that's part of what it's saying too.

However I don't agree with this. I believe that peers

as well people of lesser positions than you can hold

power over you as well. An invalidating sib for

instance.

> Our nadas had the ability

> to hurt us because they were our caretakers and had

> charge of us. Now, one

> of you mentioned that we were owed a certain amount

> of care and love from our

> parents. I agree with this statement but not with

> the idea that it makes our

> parents indebted to us.

I believe that person was me. Hi, I'm Cyndie...(0:

Yes, the word owe is strong language and so it was

*starred.* I don't believe nada owes me anything

persey, however there is an obligation one does have

as a parent. Obligations do carry with them a sense of

duty just as the clergyman - and in the instance of

heirarchy which was what the link was about, I can see

his points there too. I don't necessarily disagree

with those. But there are things that I did disagree

with and I've shared them below.

Here is my logic on this

> idea...children ultimately

> belong to God. He lends them to us...requiring that

> we treat them with

> love, tenderness and respect. Failure to live up to

> this would makes us

> indebted to God.

Yes, I understood this part of what he was saying, but

he also said this:

" Those who object to the idea that abusers must give

up power often raise the idea of

" repentance. " Just as abusive clergy often express

sorrow and remorse (at least when they are

caught), wife-beaters are notorious for saying they

are sorry, in order to get their wives to take

them back (at least until next time). But these are

empty expressions of contrition. Actual

repentance (as spelled out in Christian Scripture)

requires a real, substantive change. The Greek

word for repentance in the New Testament is metanoia,

which means " a reversal " or " turning

around. " Remorse is not enough; metanoia, repentance,

means that the power relationship has to

change. The abusers -- the perpetrators of pain and

injustice -- must no longer have the power to

continue their abuse. Put simply, the meaning of

repentance is the giving up of power. "

In this, I believe that he is asking that in order for

his wife and the victim of incest to be able to

forgive that it must mean that the people who were in

power must be *dethroned.* I don't agree with this. By

insisting that the only way you can forgive is to see

these people dethroned is remaining stuck. You

continue to give your power to them because *they

won't do what they're supposed to do.* That is *they*

are not taking responsiblity and living up to the true

meaning of repentence. If I wait around forever for my

BP nada to own her stuff I'd be stuck in my sh!t

forever. Sometimes the dethroning needs to occur in

ones own mind rather than sitting around waiting for

the physical act.

He put us (children) into the

> lives of our parents. We are

> on loan and they (parents) are indebted to HIM.

Yes, we are all endebted to God - so are we too

endebted to nada in the scheme of heirarchy? And that

was partly the jixt of what he was writing - " The

Politics of Forgiveness: How the Christian Church

Guilt-Trips Survivors. " And that is where the guilt

trip comes in... yes, yes, yes! I understand this -

but I still don't agree with what he says is

*required* in order to forgive.

He writes:

" There are two approaches to implementing this concept

of repentance. The one that first occurred

to me when I started working with questions of

forgiveness was that the person with power must

give it up -- or have it taken away. When I discussed

this with Rev. Marie M. Fortune, she told

me she saw it differently. As founder and director of

the Center for the Prevention of Sexual and

Domestic Violence, an interreligious educational

ministry based in Seattle, Rev. Fortune has

devoted most of her career to fighting sexual

violence. She advocated " justice-making as a

prerequisite to forgiveness. " She saw justice-making

as efforts to " help empower those rendered

powerless by abuse so that forgiveness becomes an

option. " In other words, I wanted to take

the power away from the perpetrator, and Rev. Fortune

wanted to give power to the survivor. "

With special attention to the last line, he wanted to

take power away from the perpetrator and then Marie

Fortune sees the only way as exacting the physical act

of justice (I'm assuming this means legally taking to

task.) In regards to Marie Fortune and her advocation

for victimes of sexual and domestic violence, it's

amicable. However, sometimes this is not always

possible. Many of us have lived with childhood sexual

abuse for many years well beyond what the courts will

allow for trial. So what do you do then??? It needs to

come from within...

Then with what he wrote in the prior paragraph - he

means this in a literal sense. I don't think it's

healthy or realistic to think this is ever going to

happen with nada. So I must reclaim my own power -

give it to mySelf, the survivor. I can't *make* nada

do anything, this is something that needs to be

accepted in order to move on. If I were to take his

priniciples to heart, I might sit here forever banging

my head against the wall saying - " nada, change your

ways and own your stuff... " over and over again. (As

I've done... to no avail.)

Here he goes on to say:

" Both Marie Fortune and I now agree that each of these

two approaches to substantive change in

an abusive relationship can be appropriate, depending

on the context. But I would insist that

empowerment must mean giving real power to the

survivor, not merely some vague psychological

or " spiritual " power. "

So okay, he does note that empowerment must mean

giving real power to the survivor (albeit in the

context of the sweeping under the rug, you *need* to

forgive context (as I read it from preceding

paragraphs.))

However in the preceding paragraphs - to him, it means

the physical dethroning of the perpetrator. This is

not ever going to happen in my lifetime - so do I hold

onto my anger forever? Then do I not perpetuate the

vicitmization by giving her this power over me?

Forgiveness and letting go is a choice - it's not

contingent upon whether or not the perpetrator goes to

jail or whatever. We all want justice, but sometimes

we all don't get it so we grow to learn that victory

does come from the forgivenesses we find along the

way. It's a release of negative energy and the bondage

of it...

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- sweepea1215@... wrote:

> Hey,

>

> I read the article and I think I get it and maybe I

> can explain what I think

> it is saying. I think the " hierarchy " issue goes to

> the fact that people can

> only hurt us if they are in a position of power.

Yes, I think that's part of what it's saying too.

However I don't agree with this. I believe that peers

as well people of lesser positions than you can hold

power over you as well. An invalidating sib for

instance.

> Our nadas had the ability

> to hurt us because they were our caretakers and had

> charge of us. Now, one

> of you mentioned that we were owed a certain amount

> of care and love from our

> parents. I agree with this statement but not with

> the idea that it makes our

> parents indebted to us.

I believe that person was me. Hi, I'm Cyndie...(0:

Yes, the word owe is strong language and so it was

*starred.* I don't believe nada owes me anything

persey, however there is an obligation one does have

as a parent. Obligations do carry with them a sense of

duty just as the clergyman - and in the instance of

heirarchy which was what the link was about, I can see

his points there too. I don't necessarily disagree

with those. But there are things that I did disagree

with and I've shared them below.

Here is my logic on this

> idea...children ultimately

> belong to God. He lends them to us...requiring that

> we treat them with

> love, tenderness and respect. Failure to live up to

> this would makes us

> indebted to God.

Yes, I understood this part of what he was saying, but

he also said this:

" Those who object to the idea that abusers must give

up power often raise the idea of

" repentance. " Just as abusive clergy often express

sorrow and remorse (at least when they are

caught), wife-beaters are notorious for saying they

are sorry, in order to get their wives to take

them back (at least until next time). But these are

empty expressions of contrition. Actual

repentance (as spelled out in Christian Scripture)

requires a real, substantive change. The Greek

word for repentance in the New Testament is metanoia,

which means " a reversal " or " turning

around. " Remorse is not enough; metanoia, repentance,

means that the power relationship has to

change. The abusers -- the perpetrators of pain and

injustice -- must no longer have the power to

continue their abuse. Put simply, the meaning of

repentance is the giving up of power. "

In this, I believe that he is asking that in order for

his wife and the victim of incest to be able to

forgive that it must mean that the people who were in

power must be *dethroned.* I don't agree with this. By

insisting that the only way you can forgive is to see

these people dethroned is remaining stuck. You

continue to give your power to them because *they

won't do what they're supposed to do.* That is *they*

are not taking responsiblity and living up to the true

meaning of repentence. If I wait around forever for my

BP nada to own her stuff I'd be stuck in my sh!t

forever. Sometimes the dethroning needs to occur in

ones own mind rather than sitting around waiting for

the physical act.

He put us (children) into the

> lives of our parents. We are

> on loan and they (parents) are indebted to HIM.

Yes, we are all endebted to God - so are we too

endebted to nada in the scheme of heirarchy? And that

was partly the jixt of what he was writing - " The

Politics of Forgiveness: How the Christian Church

Guilt-Trips Survivors. " And that is where the guilt

trip comes in... yes, yes, yes! I understand this -

but I still don't agree with what he says is

*required* in order to forgive.

He writes:

" There are two approaches to implementing this concept

of repentance. The one that first occurred

to me when I started working with questions of

forgiveness was that the person with power must

give it up -- or have it taken away. When I discussed

this with Rev. Marie M. Fortune, she told

me she saw it differently. As founder and director of

the Center for the Prevention of Sexual and

Domestic Violence, an interreligious educational

ministry based in Seattle, Rev. Fortune has

devoted most of her career to fighting sexual

violence. She advocated " justice-making as a

prerequisite to forgiveness. " She saw justice-making

as efforts to " help empower those rendered

powerless by abuse so that forgiveness becomes an

option. " In other words, I wanted to take

the power away from the perpetrator, and Rev. Fortune

wanted to give power to the survivor. "

With special attention to the last line, he wanted to

take power away from the perpetrator and then Marie

Fortune sees the only way as exacting the physical act

of justice (I'm assuming this means legally taking to

task.) In regards to Marie Fortune and her advocation

for victimes of sexual and domestic violence, it's

amicable. However, sometimes this is not always

possible. Many of us have lived with childhood sexual

abuse for many years well beyond what the courts will

allow for trial. So what do you do then??? It needs to

come from within...

Then with what he wrote in the prior paragraph - he

means this in a literal sense. I don't think it's

healthy or realistic to think this is ever going to

happen with nada. So I must reclaim my own power -

give it to mySelf, the survivor. I can't *make* nada

do anything, this is something that needs to be

accepted in order to move on. If I were to take his

priniciples to heart, I might sit here forever banging

my head against the wall saying - " nada, change your

ways and own your stuff... " over and over again. (As

I've done... to no avail.)

Here he goes on to say:

" Both Marie Fortune and I now agree that each of these

two approaches to substantive change in

an abusive relationship can be appropriate, depending

on the context. But I would insist that

empowerment must mean giving real power to the

survivor, not merely some vague psychological

or " spiritual " power. "

So okay, he does note that empowerment must mean

giving real power to the survivor (albeit in the

context of the sweeping under the rug, you *need* to

forgive context (as I read it from preceding

paragraphs.))

However in the preceding paragraphs - to him, it means

the physical dethroning of the perpetrator. This is

not ever going to happen in my lifetime - so do I hold

onto my anger forever? Then do I not perpetuate the

vicitmization by giving her this power over me?

Forgiveness and letting go is a choice - it's not

contingent upon whether or not the perpetrator goes to

jail or whatever. We all want justice, but sometimes

we all don't get it so we grow to learn that victory

does come from the forgivenesses we find along the

way. It's a release of negative energy and the bondage

of it...

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- sweepea1215@... wrote:

> Hey,

>

> I read the article and I think I get it and maybe I

> can explain what I think

> it is saying. I think the " hierarchy " issue goes to

> the fact that people can

> only hurt us if they are in a position of power.

Yes, I think that's part of what it's saying too.

However I don't agree with this. I believe that peers

as well people of lesser positions than you can hold

power over you as well. An invalidating sib for

instance.

> Our nadas had the ability

> to hurt us because they were our caretakers and had

> charge of us. Now, one

> of you mentioned that we were owed a certain amount

> of care and love from our

> parents. I agree with this statement but not with

> the idea that it makes our

> parents indebted to us.

I believe that person was me. Hi, I'm Cyndie...(0:

Yes, the word owe is strong language and so it was

*starred.* I don't believe nada owes me anything

persey, however there is an obligation one does have

as a parent. Obligations do carry with them a sense of

duty just as the clergyman - and in the instance of

heirarchy which was what the link was about, I can see

his points there too. I don't necessarily disagree

with those. But there are things that I did disagree

with and I've shared them below.

Here is my logic on this

> idea...children ultimately

> belong to God. He lends them to us...requiring that

> we treat them with

> love, tenderness and respect. Failure to live up to

> this would makes us

> indebted to God.

Yes, I understood this part of what he was saying, but

he also said this:

" Those who object to the idea that abusers must give

up power often raise the idea of

" repentance. " Just as abusive clergy often express

sorrow and remorse (at least when they are

caught), wife-beaters are notorious for saying they

are sorry, in order to get their wives to take

them back (at least until next time). But these are

empty expressions of contrition. Actual

repentance (as spelled out in Christian Scripture)

requires a real, substantive change. The Greek

word for repentance in the New Testament is metanoia,

which means " a reversal " or " turning

around. " Remorse is not enough; metanoia, repentance,

means that the power relationship has to

change. The abusers -- the perpetrators of pain and

injustice -- must no longer have the power to

continue their abuse. Put simply, the meaning of

repentance is the giving up of power. "

In this, I believe that he is asking that in order for

his wife and the victim of incest to be able to

forgive that it must mean that the people who were in

power must be *dethroned.* I don't agree with this. By

insisting that the only way you can forgive is to see

these people dethroned is remaining stuck. You

continue to give your power to them because *they

won't do what they're supposed to do.* That is *they*

are not taking responsiblity and living up to the true

meaning of repentence. If I wait around forever for my

BP nada to own her stuff I'd be stuck in my sh!t

forever. Sometimes the dethroning needs to occur in

ones own mind rather than sitting around waiting for

the physical act.

He put us (children) into the

> lives of our parents. We are

> on loan and they (parents) are indebted to HIM.

Yes, we are all endebted to God - so are we too

endebted to nada in the scheme of heirarchy? And that

was partly the jixt of what he was writing - " The

Politics of Forgiveness: How the Christian Church

Guilt-Trips Survivors. " And that is where the guilt

trip comes in... yes, yes, yes! I understand this -

but I still don't agree with what he says is

*required* in order to forgive.

He writes:

" There are two approaches to implementing this concept

of repentance. The one that first occurred

to me when I started working with questions of

forgiveness was that the person with power must

give it up -- or have it taken away. When I discussed

this with Rev. Marie M. Fortune, she told

me she saw it differently. As founder and director of

the Center for the Prevention of Sexual and

Domestic Violence, an interreligious educational

ministry based in Seattle, Rev. Fortune has

devoted most of her career to fighting sexual

violence. She advocated " justice-making as a

prerequisite to forgiveness. " She saw justice-making

as efforts to " help empower those rendered

powerless by abuse so that forgiveness becomes an

option. " In other words, I wanted to take

the power away from the perpetrator, and Rev. Fortune

wanted to give power to the survivor. "

With special attention to the last line, he wanted to

take power away from the perpetrator and then Marie

Fortune sees the only way as exacting the physical act

of justice (I'm assuming this means legally taking to

task.) In regards to Marie Fortune and her advocation

for victimes of sexual and domestic violence, it's

amicable. However, sometimes this is not always

possible. Many of us have lived with childhood sexual

abuse for many years well beyond what the courts will

allow for trial. So what do you do then??? It needs to

come from within...

Then with what he wrote in the prior paragraph - he

means this in a literal sense. I don't think it's

healthy or realistic to think this is ever going to

happen with nada. So I must reclaim my own power -

give it to mySelf, the survivor. I can't *make* nada

do anything, this is something that needs to be

accepted in order to move on. If I were to take his

priniciples to heart, I might sit here forever banging

my head against the wall saying - " nada, change your

ways and own your stuff... " over and over again. (As

I've done... to no avail.)

Here he goes on to say:

" Both Marie Fortune and I now agree that each of these

two approaches to substantive change in

an abusive relationship can be appropriate, depending

on the context. But I would insist that

empowerment must mean giving real power to the

survivor, not merely some vague psychological

or " spiritual " power. "

So okay, he does note that empowerment must mean

giving real power to the survivor (albeit in the

context of the sweeping under the rug, you *need* to

forgive context (as I read it from preceding

paragraphs.))

However in the preceding paragraphs - to him, it means

the physical dethroning of the perpetrator. This is

not ever going to happen in my lifetime - so do I hold

onto my anger forever? Then do I not perpetuate the

vicitmization by giving her this power over me?

Forgiveness and letting go is a choice - it's not

contingent upon whether or not the perpetrator goes to

jail or whatever. We all want justice, but sometimes

we all don't get it so we grow to learn that victory

does come from the forgivenesses we find along the

way. It's a release of negative energy and the bondage

of it...

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I have

> a question...how can you possible forgive someone who never

really

> apologizes...someone who says things like " I don't know what I

have ever

> done, but I am sorry. " This isn't really an acknowledgement of

wrong doing,

> but a cop out, I think. And if I don't accept this as the " magic

bullet " to

> kill the animosity in the family, am I guilty of splitting?

>

My nada does the version of the same thing. But there are no

signs of remorse, no changing of the way of life. In my FOO

there were never any apologies, just a resumation of " normal "

life as if nothing happened.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

I have

> a question...how can you possible forgive someone who never

really

> apologizes...someone who says things like " I don't know what I

have ever

> done, but I am sorry. " This isn't really an acknowledgement of

wrong doing,

> but a cop out, I think. And if I don't accept this as the " magic

bullet " to

> kill the animosity in the family, am I guilty of splitting?

>

My nada does the version of the same thing. But there are no

signs of remorse, no changing of the way of life. In my FOO

there were never any apologies, just a resumation of " normal "

life as if nothing happened.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

Thanks Cyndie...night-night and sweet dreams!

[Guest guest]

Thanks Cyndie...night-night and sweet dreams!

[Guest guest]

Thanks Cyndie...night-night and sweet dreams!

[Guest guest]

--- sweepea1215@... wrote:

Hi Debbie,

I think we're on the same page too...

> In the meantime, I have

> a question...how can you possible forgive someone

> who never really

> apologizes...someone who says things like " I don't

> know what I have ever

> done, but I am sorry. " This isn't really an

> acknowledgement of wrong doing,

> but a cop out, I think. And if I don't accept this

> as the " magic bullet " to

> kill the animosity in the family, am I guilty of

> splitting?

Yes, to the cop out. No to the splitting. You haven't

been validated - just patronized and your

intelligience insulted. By this flat and blanket

apology she puts the onus back onto you... See what a

nice person she is by apologizing? And see how

ungrateful and unforgiving you are for not accepting

it? What more do you want? Her blood? See where this

is going? This is manipulation. My ex did it all the

time - cleverly. It's called discounting in verbal

abuse language. My nada tried this a couple of times

but coming from her it was ludicrous.

I understand what it's like to be around a

highfunctioning BP or at the least, a high functioning

abusive personality. My nada is a very low-functioning

one. My exh and his mother are high functioning

whatevers. And you're right, they are the hardest to

work through. Their psychological and emotional abuse

is so covert you really need a fine toothed comb to

work through it. My exh catches me unawares all the

time - even recently. I can find myself in a place of

strength and clarity and he'll come up with some very

interesting manipulations which happen over a period

of time. But during that time I find myself doubting

my reality and the truth as he appears to be so

*nice.* However, it doesn't take long before the

hidden agenda emerges and that new light bulb goes

off. I'm catching on though. With each and every new

tactic he pulls... He is the master at the misuse of

language, I'll give him that much. In the meantime the

*nice* things he does serve well as a cover for what

really lies beneath. Only I know what the real story

is, to the average guy, they don't see it. He's a

great guy. heh heh

Anyways, take care and sleep well.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In some ways, I think I understand completely about the forgiveness being from

the powerful to the less......

Jesus forgave from the cross, because he understood their problem. We, too, can

forgive from our position of power because we know that nada/fada are sick. It

takes a while and no one can tell someone " to just forgive " , it's something that

just happens as you heal - imho. I stumbled over this for years - thinking I

was the bad one because I couldn't forgive - well, I didn't have any answers

then. I'm no longer at her mercy now because I have the answers.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

In some ways, I think I understand completely about the forgiveness being from

the powerful to the less......

Jesus forgave from the cross, because he understood their problem. We, too, can

forgive from our position of power because we know that nada/fada are sick. It

takes a while and no one can tell someone " to just forgive " , it's something that

just happens as you heal - imho. I stumbled over this for years - thinking I

was the bad one because I couldn't forgive - well, I didn't have any answers

then. I'm no longer at her mercy now because I have the answers.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

In some ways, I think I understand completely about the forgiveness being from

the powerful to the less......

Jesus forgave from the cross, because he understood their problem. We, too, can

forgive from our position of power because we know that nada/fada are sick. It

takes a while and no one can tell someone " to just forgive " , it's something that

just happens as you heal - imho. I stumbled over this for years - thinking I

was the bad one because I couldn't forgive - well, I didn't have any answers

then. I'm no longer at her mercy now because I have the answers.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

<<<

sometimes the abuse is subtle that you don't realize that you were

abused until years later.>>>>>>>>>

Tell me about it! I was almost 42 before someone read one of her letters and

told me it was abuse. I was so conditioned to it that I just thought it was

normal.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

<<<

sometimes the abuse is subtle that you don't realize that you were

abused until years later.>>>>>>>>>

Tell me about it! I was almost 42 before someone read one of her letters and

told me it was abuse. I was so conditioned to it that I just thought it was

normal.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

<<<

sometimes the abuse is subtle that you don't realize that you were

abused until years later.>>>>>>>>>

Tell me about it! I was almost 42 before someone read one of her letters and

told me it was abuse. I was so conditioned to it that I just thought it was

normal.

Ilene

[Guest guest]

Thanks Rosemary! Speaking of the Corleones...oh, to have Mama

Corleone....loving, supportive, always turning a blind eye to every last

fault (even the murdeous ones) and what a fabulous cook!!!!!!!!!!!

Debbie

PS

Sarcasm and inappropriate humor are two of the few indulgences I allow

myself...mostly because they annoy Megatron because she never quite " got " my

humor and sarcasm is completely beyond her! Naughty, naughty ;-)

[Guest guest]

Thanks Rosemary! Speaking of the Corleones...oh, to have Mama

Corleone....loving, supportive, always turning a blind eye to every last

fault (even the murdeous ones) and what a fabulous cook!!!!!!!!!!!

Debbie

PS

Sarcasm and inappropriate humor are two of the few indulgences I allow

myself...mostly because they annoy Megatron because she never quite " got " my

humor and sarcasm is completely beyond her! Naughty, naughty ;-)

[Guest guest]

Thanks Rosemary! Speaking of the Corleones...oh, to have Mama

Corleone....loving, supportive, always turning a blind eye to every last

fault (even the murdeous ones) and what a fabulous cook!!!!!!!!!!!

Debbie

PS

Sarcasm and inappropriate humor are two of the few indulgences I allow

myself...mostly because they annoy Megatron because she never quite " got " my

humor and sarcasm is completely beyond her! Naughty, naughty ;-)

[Guest guest]

Oprah always says that forgiveness is the gift you give yourself. The

person you forgive does not need to be aware of the forgiveness for

it to work. Holding anger doesn't hurt the other person. It hurts you

and your body. Living well is the best revenge.

Take care,

Rosemary

> how can you forgive someone who doesn't show remorse? again, this

isn't

> about repentence or remorse of the causer of the problem, (like my

new

> word?) It's about our letting go of the anger and moving on. We hurt

> ourselves, not them by holding on the anger. they couldn't care

less if

> we are still angry, 5 days later, 5 years later, 50 years later.

Anger

> hurts us, it keeps us from being truely happy.

>

> ** , Stinky's caretaker**

> Froehliche Weihnachten,

> Merry Christmas