Re: hi, i'm new

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Welcome to the group. I am once again amused to read my story with somebody

else's name on it! Don't fell like the lone ranger....even when Megatron (my

nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to you " , my explanations seem silly.

I know the sly, insulting and undermining things she has done are cruel and

abusive, but when I start to list them I sometimes feel like I am the

biggest, pettiest b***h in the world. Megatron spent years conditioning that

respopnse in me...I am trying to unlearn it. I remind myself that the bottom

line is not what other people (including herself) think of how she

acts....but how it makes me feel. Of course, after an encounter with

Megatron, I usually need bolstering and validation. Thank God for this list!

Look forward to " hearing " from you soon.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

hi Kathy....

welcome to the group...nice to " meet " you! This group has

helped me immensely.

Looks like you are dealing with what I've been dealing with...

Just wanted to say " welcome " . Have you read " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " ?

In my case, I've had to set tough boundaries around my self

which means not communicating with my Family of origin --

except the two who are " awake " with me.

This is tough as it is the Christmas season.

Well..I understand what you are going through....and there is lots

of help here, so welcome.....

Kathleen

> Greetings All,

>

> I am 48 yrs old, and I believe my mother either has BPD (never

> diagnosed) or at least has many BPD-like behaviors. I was on

the list

> for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are WonderKid and

still

> here???), and that was when I first began to make sense of

the

> incredible pain and confusion. I made a lot of progress then,

as far as

> being able to recognize and understand what was happening

and why, but

> I've never been able to figure out how to protect myself from

being

> continually hurt by her. Maybe it's unrealisitc, but I thought once

I

> understood, I would be able to " handle " her. I really don't want

to cut

> her out of my life. She is ill. She has been ill forever, but she

> probably doesn't have more than a year or two left now. It would

be

> hurtful to me and the whole family if I totally cut ties with her.

But I

> don't want her to be able to mess with my head like this.

>

> We used to be best friends (to my detriment, but she groomed

me for this

> role from the time I was young). She told me everything. She

had a lot

> of trauma in her life, and I became something of a container for

all of

> her pain and anger. She hated my father, and I listened for

many years

> to everything he had done to hurt her. She complained

continually about

> everyone from my aunt (her sister) to my siblings. Then I finally

woke

> up in my late 20s and began to understand that she had a

weird way of

> perceiving things, like putting " spin " on stories. I began to draw

> boundaries. That's when things started to get complicated with

Mom.

>

> As long as I agreed with everything she said, propped up her

fragile

> evil, and agreed that everyone else in the family was awful to

treat her

> the way they did, then I was the " golden child. " But as soon as I

> started speaking up and no longer wanted to listen to her rant

about

> everyone else in the family, she started in on me. It has been a

steady

> stream of persecution ever since. The thing is, it usually

happens when

> no one else is around. Even when someone else IS around,

it's subtle,

> and they don't know everything else that has been said, so they

don't

> get the significance of the whole picture. I feel like she has

twisted

> who I am and how I look to the rest of my family. Some of my

family

> members get it to a point, but some seem really clueless.

>

> Even after reading all of the literature and being in therapy

myself,

> she still gets to me. It's so subtle that I can't even describe it

> sometimes. I've worked so hard to try to disentangle myself

from her

> twisted reality, but she has this way of coming in the side door

when

> I'm not prepared. One phone call and a few remarks from her

can ruin my

> day. She has WAY too much power to affect me. She knows

how to push

> buttons that I don't even know I have! Just when I think I have

finally

> reached a place of peace, acceptance, and forgiveness, she

pulls

> something else (never obvious enough for me to even begin to

explain to

> others) and I end up angry and hurt and doubting my own

perception of

> reality. I know I cannot change her. The only person I have

control over

> is me. I'm smart, I " get it " , so why can't I stop hurting?

>

> The thing that really makes me crazy is that she doesn't treat

everyone

> like this. My younger sibs definitely felt her craziness at times in

the

> past, but she's even backed off on them. As far as I know, I'm

the only

> one she still messes with. Which makes me look like I'm at

least part of

> the problem to the rest of the family. If she says something

hurtful,

> and I call her on it, she denies it, or says, " Oh Kathy, I didn't say

it

> that way. You are SO sensitive. " And she tells everyone else

that she

> has to be so careful what she says to me. I'm tired of the lies,

the

> misrepresentations of me, her messing with my head, the

character

> assassination....

>

> Anyway... hi, I'm new. (

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

hi Kathy....

welcome to the group...nice to " meet " you! This group has

helped me immensely.

Looks like you are dealing with what I've been dealing with...

Just wanted to say " welcome " . Have you read " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " ?

In my case, I've had to set tough boundaries around my self

which means not communicating with my Family of origin --

except the two who are " awake " with me.

This is tough as it is the Christmas season.

Well..I understand what you are going through....and there is lots

of help here, so welcome.....

Kathleen

> Greetings All,

>

> I am 48 yrs old, and I believe my mother either has BPD (never

> diagnosed) or at least has many BPD-like behaviors. I was on

the list

> for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are WonderKid and

still

> here???), and that was when I first began to make sense of

the

> incredible pain and confusion. I made a lot of progress then,

as far as

> being able to recognize and understand what was happening

and why, but

> I've never been able to figure out how to protect myself from

being

> continually hurt by her. Maybe it's unrealisitc, but I thought once

I

> understood, I would be able to " handle " her. I really don't want

to cut

> her out of my life. She is ill. She has been ill forever, but she

> probably doesn't have more than a year or two left now. It would

be

> hurtful to me and the whole family if I totally cut ties with her.

But I

> don't want her to be able to mess with my head like this.

>

> We used to be best friends (to my detriment, but she groomed

me for this

> role from the time I was young). She told me everything. She

had a lot

> of trauma in her life, and I became something of a container for

all of

> her pain and anger. She hated my father, and I listened for

many years

> to everything he had done to hurt her. She complained

continually about

> everyone from my aunt (her sister) to my siblings. Then I finally

woke

> up in my late 20s and began to understand that she had a

weird way of

> perceiving things, like putting " spin " on stories. I began to draw

> boundaries. That's when things started to get complicated with

Mom.

>

> As long as I agreed with everything she said, propped up her

fragile

> evil, and agreed that everyone else in the family was awful to

treat her

> the way they did, then I was the " golden child. " But as soon as I

> started speaking up and no longer wanted to listen to her rant

about

> everyone else in the family, she started in on me. It has been a

steady

> stream of persecution ever since. The thing is, it usually

happens when

> no one else is around. Even when someone else IS around,

it's subtle,

> and they don't know everything else that has been said, so they

don't

> get the significance of the whole picture. I feel like she has

twisted

> who I am and how I look to the rest of my family. Some of my

family

> members get it to a point, but some seem really clueless.

>

> Even after reading all of the literature and being in therapy

myself,

> she still gets to me. It's so subtle that I can't even describe it

> sometimes. I've worked so hard to try to disentangle myself

from her

> twisted reality, but she has this way of coming in the side door

when

> I'm not prepared. One phone call and a few remarks from her

can ruin my

> day. She has WAY too much power to affect me. She knows

how to push

> buttons that I don't even know I have! Just when I think I have

finally

> reached a place of peace, acceptance, and forgiveness, she

pulls

> something else (never obvious enough for me to even begin to

explain to

> others) and I end up angry and hurt and doubting my own

perception of

> reality. I know I cannot change her. The only person I have

control over

> is me. I'm smart, I " get it " , so why can't I stop hurting?

>

> The thing that really makes me crazy is that she doesn't treat

everyone

> like this. My younger sibs definitely felt her craziness at times in

the

> past, but she's even backed off on them. As far as I know, I'm

the only

> one she still messes with. Which makes me look like I'm at

least part of

> the problem to the rest of the family. If she says something

hurtful,

> and I call her on it, she denies it, or says, " Oh Kathy, I didn't say

it

> that way. You are SO sensitive. " And she tells everyone else

that she

> has to be so careful what she says to me. I'm tired of the lies,

the

> misrepresentations of me, her messing with my head, the

character

> assassination....

>

> Anyway... hi, I'm new. (

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

hi Kathy....

welcome to the group...nice to " meet " you! This group has

helped me immensely.

Looks like you are dealing with what I've been dealing with...

Just wanted to say " welcome " . Have you read " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " ?

In my case, I've had to set tough boundaries around my self

which means not communicating with my Family of origin --

except the two who are " awake " with me.

This is tough as it is the Christmas season.

Well..I understand what you are going through....and there is lots

of help here, so welcome.....

Kathleen

> Greetings All,

>

> I am 48 yrs old, and I believe my mother either has BPD (never

> diagnosed) or at least has many BPD-like behaviors. I was on

the list

> for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are WonderKid and

still

> here???), and that was when I first began to make sense of

the

> incredible pain and confusion. I made a lot of progress then,

as far as

> being able to recognize and understand what was happening

and why, but

> I've never been able to figure out how to protect myself from

being

> continually hurt by her. Maybe it's unrealisitc, but I thought once

I

> understood, I would be able to " handle " her. I really don't want

to cut

> her out of my life. She is ill. She has been ill forever, but she

> probably doesn't have more than a year or two left now. It would

be

> hurtful to me and the whole family if I totally cut ties with her.

But I

> don't want her to be able to mess with my head like this.

>

> We used to be best friends (to my detriment, but she groomed

me for this

> role from the time I was young). She told me everything. She

had a lot

> of trauma in her life, and I became something of a container for

all of

> her pain and anger. She hated my father, and I listened for

many years

> to everything he had done to hurt her. She complained

continually about

> everyone from my aunt (her sister) to my siblings. Then I finally

woke

> up in my late 20s and began to understand that she had a

weird way of

> perceiving things, like putting " spin " on stories. I began to draw

> boundaries. That's when things started to get complicated with

Mom.

>

> As long as I agreed with everything she said, propped up her

fragile

> evil, and agreed that everyone else in the family was awful to

treat her

> the way they did, then I was the " golden child. " But as soon as I

> started speaking up and no longer wanted to listen to her rant

about

> everyone else in the family, she started in on me. It has been a

steady

> stream of persecution ever since. The thing is, it usually

happens when

> no one else is around. Even when someone else IS around,

it's subtle,

> and they don't know everything else that has been said, so they

don't

> get the significance of the whole picture. I feel like she has

twisted

> who I am and how I look to the rest of my family. Some of my

family

> members get it to a point, but some seem really clueless.

>

> Even after reading all of the literature and being in therapy

myself,

> she still gets to me. It's so subtle that I can't even describe it

> sometimes. I've worked so hard to try to disentangle myself

from her

> twisted reality, but she has this way of coming in the side door

when

> I'm not prepared. One phone call and a few remarks from her

can ruin my

> day. She has WAY too much power to affect me. She knows

how to push

> buttons that I don't even know I have! Just when I think I have

finally

> reached a place of peace, acceptance, and forgiveness, she

pulls

> something else (never obvious enough for me to even begin to

explain to

> others) and I end up angry and hurt and doubting my own

perception of

> reality. I know I cannot change her. The only person I have

control over

> is me. I'm smart, I " get it " , so why can't I stop hurting?

>

> The thing that really makes me crazy is that she doesn't treat

everyone

> like this. My younger sibs definitely felt her craziness at times in

the

> past, but she's even backed off on them. As far as I know, I'm

the only

> one she still messes with. Which makes me look like I'm at

least part of

> the problem to the rest of the family. If she says something

hurtful,

> and I call her on it, she denies it, or says, " Oh Kathy, I didn't say

it

> that way. You are SO sensitive. " And she tells everyone else

that she

> has to be so careful what she says to me. I'm tired of the lies,

the

> misrepresentations of me, her messing with my head, the

character

> assassination....

>

> Anyway... hi, I'm new. (

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy and welcome,

I was in exactly your situation. You nada has so many hooks in you,

you don't know where they are all embedded. She can tug those hooks

and spin you around just like a puppet, and you have no idea what's

going on. I was the golden child too. My nada's caretaker, defender,

therapist, and surrogate spouse. It's called parentification, and

it's abuse.

It took me 30 years to realize what she had done to me all of these

years. I still have virtually no memory of specific examples, and

when I go to describe the abuse to some people, I lack the words.

Most people who know my nada understand that she is nuts. But the

closer you get, the harder it is for others to see. You need distance

to see the grand scheme of her work.

I separated from my nada about three years ago and gave myself a good

six months to myself before I talked to her again. It was just what I

needed to get persepective and allow myself to figure out who I was,

to start getting those tentacles and hooks removed enough to learn to

stand on my own.

Eventually, when I realized that she was not going to change no

matter how strong I was, I divorced her. It's been two years, and I

feel like a new person. I, as a person, have discovered that I

actually have needs and wants. And boundaries! I see my life in two

sections: nada years, and after nada years. But, that's just me. It's

different for everyone. Just understand that you are not alone. We

speak your language here, and we're glad you joined us.

Take care,

Rosemary

> Greetings All,

>

> I am 48 yrs old, and I believe my mother either has BPD (never

> diagnosed) or at least has many BPD-like behaviors. I was on the

list

> for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are WonderKid and Chris

still

> here???), and that was when I first began to make sense of the

> incredible pain and confusion. I made a lot of progress then, as

far as

> being able to recognize and understand what was happening and why,

but

> I've never been able to figure out how to protect myself from being

> continually hurt by her. Maybe it's unrealisitc, but I thought once

I

> understood, I would be able to " handle " her. I really don't want to

cut

> her out of my life. She is ill. She has been ill forever, but she

> probably doesn't have more than a year or two left now. It would be

> hurtful to me and the whole family if I totally cut ties with her.

But I

> don't want her to be able to mess with my head like this.

>

> We used to be best friends (to my detriment, but she groomed me for

this

> role from the time I was young). She told me everything. She had a

lot

> of trauma in her life, and I became something of a container for

all of

> her pain and anger. She hated my father, and I listened for many

years

> to everything he had done to hurt her. She complained continually

about

> everyone from my aunt (her sister) to my siblings. Then I finally

woke

> up in my late 20s and began to understand that she had a weird way

of

> perceiving things, like putting " spin " on stories. I began to draw

> boundaries. That's when things started to get complicated with Mom.

>

> As long as I agreed with everything she said, propped up her fragile

> evil, and agreed that everyone else in the family was awful to

treat her

> the way they did, then I was the " golden child. " But as soon as I

> started speaking up and no longer wanted to listen to her rant about

> everyone else in the family, she started in on me. It has been a

steady

> stream of persecution ever since. The thing is, it usually happens

when

> no one else is around. Even when someone else IS around, it's

subtle,

> and they don't know everything else that has been said, so they

don't

> get the significance of the whole picture. I feel like she has

twisted

> who I am and how I look to the rest of my family. Some of my family

> members get it to a point, but some seem really clueless.

>

> Even after reading all of the literature and being in therapy

myself,

> she still gets to me. It's so subtle that I can't even describe it

> sometimes. I've worked so hard to try to disentangle myself from her

> twisted reality, but she has this way of coming in the side door

when

> I'm not prepared. One phone call and a few remarks from her can

ruin my

> day. She has WAY too much power to affect me. She knows how to push

> buttons that I don't even know I have! Just when I think I have

finally

> reached a place of peace, acceptance, and forgiveness, she pulls

> something else (never obvious enough for me to even begin to

explain to

> others) and I end up angry and hurt and doubting my own perception

of

> reality. I know I cannot change her. The only person I have control

over

> is me. I'm smart, I " get it " , so why can't I stop hurting?

>

> The thing that really makes me crazy is that she doesn't treat

everyone

> like this. My younger sibs definitely felt her craziness at times

in the

> past, but she's even backed off on them. As far as I know, I'm the

only

> one she still messes with. Which makes me look like I'm at least

part of

> the problem to the rest of the family. If she says something

hurtful,

> and I call her on it, she denies it, or says, " Oh Kathy, I didn't

say it

> that way. You are SO sensitive. " And she tells everyone else that

she

> has to be so careful what she says to me. I'm tired of the lies, the

> misrepresentations of me, her messing with my head, the character

> assassination....

>

> Anyway... hi, I'm new. (

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy and welcome,

I was in exactly your situation. You nada has so many hooks in you,

you don't know where they are all embedded. She can tug those hooks

and spin you around just like a puppet, and you have no idea what's

going on. I was the golden child too. My nada's caretaker, defender,

therapist, and surrogate spouse. It's called parentification, and

it's abuse.

It took me 30 years to realize what she had done to me all of these

years. I still have virtually no memory of specific examples, and

when I go to describe the abuse to some people, I lack the words.

Most people who know my nada understand that she is nuts. But the

closer you get, the harder it is for others to see. You need distance

to see the grand scheme of her work.

I separated from my nada about three years ago and gave myself a good

six months to myself before I talked to her again. It was just what I

needed to get persepective and allow myself to figure out who I was,

to start getting those tentacles and hooks removed enough to learn to

stand on my own.

Eventually, when I realized that she was not going to change no

matter how strong I was, I divorced her. It's been two years, and I

feel like a new person. I, as a person, have discovered that I

actually have needs and wants. And boundaries! I see my life in two

sections: nada years, and after nada years. But, that's just me. It's

different for everyone. Just understand that you are not alone. We

speak your language here, and we're glad you joined us.

Take care,

Rosemary

> Greetings All,

>

> I am 48 yrs old, and I believe my mother either has BPD (never

> diagnosed) or at least has many BPD-like behaviors. I was on the

list

> for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are WonderKid and Chris

still

> here???), and that was when I first began to make sense of the

> incredible pain and confusion. I made a lot of progress then, as

far as

> being able to recognize and understand what was happening and why,

but

> I've never been able to figure out how to protect myself from being

> continually hurt by her. Maybe it's unrealisitc, but I thought once

I

> understood, I would be able to " handle " her. I really don't want to

cut

> her out of my life. She is ill. She has been ill forever, but she

> probably doesn't have more than a year or two left now. It would be

> hurtful to me and the whole family if I totally cut ties with her.

But I

> don't want her to be able to mess with my head like this.

>

> We used to be best friends (to my detriment, but she groomed me for

this

> role from the time I was young). She told me everything. She had a

lot

> of trauma in her life, and I became something of a container for

all of

> her pain and anger. She hated my father, and I listened for many

years

> to everything he had done to hurt her. She complained continually

about

> everyone from my aunt (her sister) to my siblings. Then I finally

woke

> up in my late 20s and began to understand that she had a weird way

of

> perceiving things, like putting " spin " on stories. I began to draw

> boundaries. That's when things started to get complicated with Mom.

>

> As long as I agreed with everything she said, propped up her fragile

> evil, and agreed that everyone else in the family was awful to

treat her

> the way they did, then I was the " golden child. " But as soon as I

> started speaking up and no longer wanted to listen to her rant about

> everyone else in the family, she started in on me. It has been a

steady

> stream of persecution ever since. The thing is, it usually happens

when

> no one else is around. Even when someone else IS around, it's

subtle,

> and they don't know everything else that has been said, so they

don't

> get the significance of the whole picture. I feel like she has

twisted

> who I am and how I look to the rest of my family. Some of my family

> members get it to a point, but some seem really clueless.

>

> Even after reading all of the literature and being in therapy

myself,

> she still gets to me. It's so subtle that I can't even describe it

> sometimes. I've worked so hard to try to disentangle myself from her

> twisted reality, but she has this way of coming in the side door

when

> I'm not prepared. One phone call and a few remarks from her can

ruin my

> day. She has WAY too much power to affect me. She knows how to push

> buttons that I don't even know I have! Just when I think I have

finally

> reached a place of peace, acceptance, and forgiveness, she pulls

> something else (never obvious enough for me to even begin to

explain to

> others) and I end up angry and hurt and doubting my own perception

of

> reality. I know I cannot change her. The only person I have control

over

> is me. I'm smart, I " get it " , so why can't I stop hurting?

>

> The thing that really makes me crazy is that she doesn't treat

everyone

> like this. My younger sibs definitely felt her craziness at times

in the

> past, but she's even backed off on them. As far as I know, I'm the

only

> one she still messes with. Which makes me look like I'm at least

part of

> the problem to the rest of the family. If she says something

hurtful,

> and I call her on it, she denies it, or says, " Oh Kathy, I didn't

say it

> that way. You are SO sensitive. " And she tells everyone else that

she

> has to be so careful what she says to me. I'm tired of the lies, the

> misrepresentations of me, her messing with my head, the character

> assassination....

>

> Anyway... hi, I'm new. (

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy and welcome,

I was in exactly your situation. You nada has so many hooks in you,

you don't know where they are all embedded. She can tug those hooks

and spin you around just like a puppet, and you have no idea what's

going on. I was the golden child too. My nada's caretaker, defender,

therapist, and surrogate spouse. It's called parentification, and

it's abuse.

It took me 30 years to realize what she had done to me all of these

years. I still have virtually no memory of specific examples, and

when I go to describe the abuse to some people, I lack the words.

Most people who know my nada understand that she is nuts. But the

closer you get, the harder it is for others to see. You need distance

to see the grand scheme of her work.

I separated from my nada about three years ago and gave myself a good

six months to myself before I talked to her again. It was just what I

needed to get persepective and allow myself to figure out who I was,

to start getting those tentacles and hooks removed enough to learn to

stand on my own.

Eventually, when I realized that she was not going to change no

matter how strong I was, I divorced her. It's been two years, and I

feel like a new person. I, as a person, have discovered that I

actually have needs and wants. And boundaries! I see my life in two

sections: nada years, and after nada years. But, that's just me. It's

different for everyone. Just understand that you are not alone. We

speak your language here, and we're glad you joined us.

Take care,

Rosemary

> Greetings All,

>

> I am 48 yrs old, and I believe my mother either has BPD (never

> diagnosed) or at least has many BPD-like behaviors. I was on the

list

> for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are WonderKid and Chris

still

> here???), and that was when I first began to make sense of the

> incredible pain and confusion. I made a lot of progress then, as

far as

> being able to recognize and understand what was happening and why,

but

> I've never been able to figure out how to protect myself from being

> continually hurt by her. Maybe it's unrealisitc, but I thought once

I

> understood, I would be able to " handle " her. I really don't want to

cut

> her out of my life. She is ill. She has been ill forever, but she

> probably doesn't have more than a year or two left now. It would be

> hurtful to me and the whole family if I totally cut ties with her.

But I

> don't want her to be able to mess with my head like this.

>

> We used to be best friends (to my detriment, but she groomed me for

this

> role from the time I was young). She told me everything. She had a

lot

> of trauma in her life, and I became something of a container for

all of

> her pain and anger. She hated my father, and I listened for many

years

> to everything he had done to hurt her. She complained continually

about

> everyone from my aunt (her sister) to my siblings. Then I finally

woke

> up in my late 20s and began to understand that she had a weird way

of

> perceiving things, like putting " spin " on stories. I began to draw

> boundaries. That's when things started to get complicated with Mom.

>

> As long as I agreed with everything she said, propped up her fragile

> evil, and agreed that everyone else in the family was awful to

treat her

> the way they did, then I was the " golden child. " But as soon as I

> started speaking up and no longer wanted to listen to her rant about

> everyone else in the family, she started in on me. It has been a

steady

> stream of persecution ever since. The thing is, it usually happens

when

> no one else is around. Even when someone else IS around, it's

subtle,

> and they don't know everything else that has been said, so they

don't

> get the significance of the whole picture. I feel like she has

twisted

> who I am and how I look to the rest of my family. Some of my family

> members get it to a point, but some seem really clueless.

>

> Even after reading all of the literature and being in therapy

myself,

> she still gets to me. It's so subtle that I can't even describe it

> sometimes. I've worked so hard to try to disentangle myself from her

> twisted reality, but she has this way of coming in the side door

when

> I'm not prepared. One phone call and a few remarks from her can

ruin my

> day. She has WAY too much power to affect me. She knows how to push

> buttons that I don't even know I have! Just when I think I have

finally

> reached a place of peace, acceptance, and forgiveness, she pulls

> something else (never obvious enough for me to even begin to

explain to

> others) and I end up angry and hurt and doubting my own perception

of

> reality. I know I cannot change her. The only person I have control

over

> is me. I'm smart, I " get it " , so why can't I stop hurting?

>

> The thing that really makes me crazy is that she doesn't treat

everyone

> like this. My younger sibs definitely felt her craziness at times

in the

> past, but she's even backed off on them. As far as I know, I'm the

only

> one she still messes with. Which makes me look like I'm at least

part of

> the problem to the rest of the family. If she says something

hurtful,

> and I call her on it, she denies it, or says, " Oh Kathy, I didn't

say it

> that way. You are SO sensitive. " And she tells everyone else that

she

> has to be so careful what she says to me. I'm tired of the lies, the

> misrepresentations of me, her messing with my head, the character

> assassination....

>

> Anyway... hi, I'm new. (

> Kathy

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the welcome everyone. Reading you guys feels like coming

home. There is an understanding here that I can't find anywhere else. I

can't believe how much I could write, and write, and write... I feel

like the dam is breaking! So please bear with me as I get some things

off my chest. I know you will all understand, and of course, the delete

button is always handy in case I get to be too much!

Kathleen, I haven't read, " Understanding the Borderline Mother. " I will

check it out though. I've read quite a bit on BPD, including, _Walking

on Eggshells_. I am working on my master's degree in counseling, and I

have a good basic knowledge of personality disorders. Although I learned

more about BPD just being on this list a few years ago than any

counseling program could ever give me.

That's what stumps me. I " get it. " I even " get " why my mom turned out

the way she did, and I have tremendous compassion for what she has

suffered. That is why I am so stymied at how she can still affect me the

way she does. I also feel like I need to be able to work through this

before I start practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own

subconscious baggage to interfere with someone else's process.

It seems to me that just knowing and understanding doesn't change the

feeling part of the relationship. I don't think it's about forgiveness

either. I am not holding things against her. But I still hurt. I think

there is some kind of subconscious energy connection between me and mom

that I have yet to sever. Sometimes I even wonder if there isn't some

kind of bigger reason we are in this relationship. She lost her

biological mom, Grace, when she was 3. She lost her 2nd mom, Peg, when

she was 11. Her 3rd mom was a raging maniac. I look so much like Grace,

her bio mom. Maybe I AM Grace, reincarnated to take care of the damaged

self of my mother? I know, it's far fetched, but if you listen to some

of our modern day gurus, like Caroline Myss, Ram Dass, Wayne Dyer,

Zukav etc... you will at least understand where I am coming from. Like,

there are no accidents. Maybe I have this mom, at this time, and this

role for a reason... Maybe it's karma. Maybe I'm just desperate to

understand.... I even had one new-agey kind of healer person say to me,

" You came to contain her fear and rage so the family could survive. " How

nice. They could have at least given me a manual with directions so my

own self wouldn't have been so damaged in the process! And if it's true,

then I did indeed save the family. I should be grateful for my role.

I've done my job well. Gag.

And Rosemary wrote:

> I was in exactly your situation. You nada has so many hooks in you,

> you don't know where they are all embedded. She can tug those hooks

> and spin you around just like a puppet, and you have no idea what's

> going on. I was the golden child too. My nada's caretaker, defender,

> therapist, and surrogate spouse. It's called parentification, and it's

> abuse.

Exactly. It's the hooks. She can get me so fast and so hard. I have

often said that I was her surrogate spouse. She got her intimacy and

friendship needs met through me. When she was depressed, I listened.

When she was suicidal, I set my own needs aside and took care of hers.

She is agoraphobic. I rescued, rescued, rescued... was terrified and

didn't even know it at the time. My awareness is all hindsight.

It seems to me that mom needs to be a victim. If no one is abusing her,

she will somehow spin things and make it appear that way. I don't think

this is conscious. I don't think she knows how to be any other way. So

you would think, if I " get " that, then I would not be so hurt when she

does her stuff. But she often catches me by surprise. Maybe because she

often seems perfectly nice and normal. It's like, I begin to relax,

maybe open the window just a crack, and I'm just so relieved to have a

mom that seems to like me again. Then the other side of her comes out of

nowhere. I have no idea what triggers that other side, but I'm usually

the recipient of it. I never know what I will get when I call her or she

calls me.

> It took me 30 years to realize what she had done to me all of these

> years. I still have virtually no memory of specific examples, and when

> I go to describe the abuse to some people, I lack the words.

I understand this so clearly, Rosemary. That is why I came back to this

list. I think people actually have to experience the weirdness to

understand. It cannot be described in words alone. You have to actually

have felt the energetic tug that people with BPD are so good at. I have

described my mom to my therapist as an emotional vampire... she quite

literally sucks the life out of me. It only takes one phone call, and I

am teary & unsettled for the rest of the day... sometimes a week. I was

her primary caretaker until about a year ago. I thought it would get

better with the distance between us (I only see her once a year now). I

was wrong. It's actually worse now. Now that she doesn't need me

anymore, she can abuse me all the more.

> Eventually, when I realized that she was not going to change no matter

> how strong I was, I divorced her. It's been two years, and I feel like

> a new person.

By " divorced her, " do you mean you no longer have any contact with her?

This is what my therapist has suggested. I think it is probably a very

wise and strong thing to do. But it doesn't seem like the right thing to

do for me. Not now anyway. My family would think I was totally insane.

It would hurt mom so deeply, and because she is so ill and probably

close to the end of her life, they would all see me as heartless and

cruel. I think I would even see myself that way. I feel like my time is

gone for drawing really good boundaries or ending my relationship with

her entirely.

I should have done this a long time ago, but I didn't get it then like I

do now.

And Debbie wrote:

> even when Megatron (my nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to

you " ,

> my explanations seem silly. I know the sly, insulting and undermining

things

> she has done are cruel and abusive, but when I start to list them I

sometimes

> feel like I am the biggest, pettiest b***h in the world.

Debbie, my mom just did this number on me yesterday! My birthday. I had

sent a Christmas package to her, and she called to thank me and told me

how I always send the most thoughtful and perfect gifts. And the card

made her cry. She was even choked up a bit on the phone as she told me.

Then she got real. Sounded very genuine, and said something like she

felt like she had lost her best friend. I told her I felt the same way.

But then she said, " Well, how can I defend myself if you won't tell me

what it is that I've said to hurt you? " We've been here before. I tried

to tell her previously and all she would say is, " Oh, Kathy, I didn't

say it like that. " Or she even totally denies the things she's said and

done. So yesterday, I just said, " Mom, you don't need to defend

yourself. Whenever I do tell you, you deny that you said it, so we

obviously perceived things very differently. We'll just have to agree to

disagree. " She pushed a little further, and I could just feel the hooks

digging in. So I said, " No. There is too much water under the bridge.

Let's just let it go. " But see, she can't. She told me she feels hatred

from me. ???????? I feel hatred from her... palpable hostility that

feels like it's poisoning me. What the heck? That's when I lose my grip.

I start to think, " What if I AM part of the problem? What if it's me? "

And my biggest, BIGGEST, mistake, is that we really were best friends.

She knows me inside and out. I had no idea my own mother would ever

betray me the way she has.

And woven into all of this was what she wants at her funeral (which

realistically will probably take place sooner than later). I was always

the musical one in the family, so she wants me to take care of the

music. So I'm planning my mom's funeral, saying goodbye to my best

friend and worst enemy, and still trying to protect myself from the

side-door hooks... This is the stuff that makes people crazy.

Thanks for being there, gang...

Kathy

p.s. Debbie... Megatron??? LOL

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the welcome everyone. Reading you guys feels like coming

home. There is an understanding here that I can't find anywhere else. I

can't believe how much I could write, and write, and write... I feel

like the dam is breaking! So please bear with me as I get some things

off my chest. I know you will all understand, and of course, the delete

button is always handy in case I get to be too much!

Kathleen, I haven't read, " Understanding the Borderline Mother. " I will

check it out though. I've read quite a bit on BPD, including, _Walking

on Eggshells_. I am working on my master's degree in counseling, and I

have a good basic knowledge of personality disorders. Although I learned

more about BPD just being on this list a few years ago than any

counseling program could ever give me.

That's what stumps me. I " get it. " I even " get " why my mom turned out

the way she did, and I have tremendous compassion for what she has

suffered. That is why I am so stymied at how she can still affect me the

way she does. I also feel like I need to be able to work through this

before I start practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own

subconscious baggage to interfere with someone else's process.

It seems to me that just knowing and understanding doesn't change the

feeling part of the relationship. I don't think it's about forgiveness

either. I am not holding things against her. But I still hurt. I think

there is some kind of subconscious energy connection between me and mom

that I have yet to sever. Sometimes I even wonder if there isn't some

kind of bigger reason we are in this relationship. She lost her

biological mom, Grace, when she was 3. She lost her 2nd mom, Peg, when

she was 11. Her 3rd mom was a raging maniac. I look so much like Grace,

her bio mom. Maybe I AM Grace, reincarnated to take care of the damaged

self of my mother? I know, it's far fetched, but if you listen to some

of our modern day gurus, like Caroline Myss, Ram Dass, Wayne Dyer,

Zukav etc... you will at least understand where I am coming from. Like,

there are no accidents. Maybe I have this mom, at this time, and this

role for a reason... Maybe it's karma. Maybe I'm just desperate to

understand.... I even had one new-agey kind of healer person say to me,

" You came to contain her fear and rage so the family could survive. " How

nice. They could have at least given me a manual with directions so my

own self wouldn't have been so damaged in the process! And if it's true,

then I did indeed save the family. I should be grateful for my role.

I've done my job well. Gag.

And Rosemary wrote:

> I was in exactly your situation. You nada has so many hooks in you,

> you don't know where they are all embedded. She can tug those hooks

> and spin you around just like a puppet, and you have no idea what's

> going on. I was the golden child too. My nada's caretaker, defender,

> therapist, and surrogate spouse. It's called parentification, and it's

> abuse.

Exactly. It's the hooks. She can get me so fast and so hard. I have

often said that I was her surrogate spouse. She got her intimacy and

friendship needs met through me. When she was depressed, I listened.

When she was suicidal, I set my own needs aside and took care of hers.

She is agoraphobic. I rescued, rescued, rescued... was terrified and

didn't even know it at the time. My awareness is all hindsight.

It seems to me that mom needs to be a victim. If no one is abusing her,

she will somehow spin things and make it appear that way. I don't think

this is conscious. I don't think she knows how to be any other way. So

you would think, if I " get " that, then I would not be so hurt when she

does her stuff. But she often catches me by surprise. Maybe because she

often seems perfectly nice and normal. It's like, I begin to relax,

maybe open the window just a crack, and I'm just so relieved to have a

mom that seems to like me again. Then the other side of her comes out of

nowhere. I have no idea what triggers that other side, but I'm usually

the recipient of it. I never know what I will get when I call her or she

calls me.

> It took me 30 years to realize what she had done to me all of these

> years. I still have virtually no memory of specific examples, and when

> I go to describe the abuse to some people, I lack the words.

I understand this so clearly, Rosemary. That is why I came back to this

list. I think people actually have to experience the weirdness to

understand. It cannot be described in words alone. You have to actually

have felt the energetic tug that people with BPD are so good at. I have

described my mom to my therapist as an emotional vampire... she quite

literally sucks the life out of me. It only takes one phone call, and I

am teary & unsettled for the rest of the day... sometimes a week. I was

her primary caretaker until about a year ago. I thought it would get

better with the distance between us (I only see her once a year now). I

was wrong. It's actually worse now. Now that she doesn't need me

anymore, she can abuse me all the more.

> Eventually, when I realized that she was not going to change no matter

> how strong I was, I divorced her. It's been two years, and I feel like

> a new person.

By " divorced her, " do you mean you no longer have any contact with her?

This is what my therapist has suggested. I think it is probably a very

wise and strong thing to do. But it doesn't seem like the right thing to

do for me. Not now anyway. My family would think I was totally insane.

It would hurt mom so deeply, and because she is so ill and probably

close to the end of her life, they would all see me as heartless and

cruel. I think I would even see myself that way. I feel like my time is

gone for drawing really good boundaries or ending my relationship with

her entirely.

I should have done this a long time ago, but I didn't get it then like I

do now.

And Debbie wrote:

> even when Megatron (my nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to

you " ,

> my explanations seem silly. I know the sly, insulting and undermining

things

> she has done are cruel and abusive, but when I start to list them I

sometimes

> feel like I am the biggest, pettiest b***h in the world.

Debbie, my mom just did this number on me yesterday! My birthday. I had

sent a Christmas package to her, and she called to thank me and told me

how I always send the most thoughtful and perfect gifts. And the card

made her cry. She was even choked up a bit on the phone as she told me.

Then she got real. Sounded very genuine, and said something like she

felt like she had lost her best friend. I told her I felt the same way.

But then she said, " Well, how can I defend myself if you won't tell me

what it is that I've said to hurt you? " We've been here before. I tried

to tell her previously and all she would say is, " Oh, Kathy, I didn't

say it like that. " Or she even totally denies the things she's said and

done. So yesterday, I just said, " Mom, you don't need to defend

yourself. Whenever I do tell you, you deny that you said it, so we

obviously perceived things very differently. We'll just have to agree to

disagree. " She pushed a little further, and I could just feel the hooks

digging in. So I said, " No. There is too much water under the bridge.

Let's just let it go. " But see, she can't. She told me she feels hatred

from me. ???????? I feel hatred from her... palpable hostility that

feels like it's poisoning me. What the heck? That's when I lose my grip.

I start to think, " What if I AM part of the problem? What if it's me? "

And my biggest, BIGGEST, mistake, is that we really were best friends.

She knows me inside and out. I had no idea my own mother would ever

betray me the way she has.

And woven into all of this was what she wants at her funeral (which

realistically will probably take place sooner than later). I was always

the musical one in the family, so she wants me to take care of the

music. So I'm planning my mom's funeral, saying goodbye to my best

friend and worst enemy, and still trying to protect myself from the

side-door hooks... This is the stuff that makes people crazy.

Thanks for being there, gang...

Kathy

p.s. Debbie... Megatron??? LOL

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the welcome everyone. Reading you guys feels like coming

home. There is an understanding here that I can't find anywhere else. I

can't believe how much I could write, and write, and write... I feel

like the dam is breaking! So please bear with me as I get some things

off my chest. I know you will all understand, and of course, the delete

button is always handy in case I get to be too much!

Kathleen, I haven't read, " Understanding the Borderline Mother. " I will

check it out though. I've read quite a bit on BPD, including, _Walking

on Eggshells_. I am working on my master's degree in counseling, and I

have a good basic knowledge of personality disorders. Although I learned

more about BPD just being on this list a few years ago than any

counseling program could ever give me.

That's what stumps me. I " get it. " I even " get " why my mom turned out

the way she did, and I have tremendous compassion for what she has

suffered. That is why I am so stymied at how she can still affect me the

way she does. I also feel like I need to be able to work through this

before I start practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own

subconscious baggage to interfere with someone else's process.

It seems to me that just knowing and understanding doesn't change the

feeling part of the relationship. I don't think it's about forgiveness

either. I am not holding things against her. But I still hurt. I think

there is some kind of subconscious energy connection between me and mom

that I have yet to sever. Sometimes I even wonder if there isn't some

kind of bigger reason we are in this relationship. She lost her

biological mom, Grace, when she was 3. She lost her 2nd mom, Peg, when

she was 11. Her 3rd mom was a raging maniac. I look so much like Grace,

her bio mom. Maybe I AM Grace, reincarnated to take care of the damaged

self of my mother? I know, it's far fetched, but if you listen to some

of our modern day gurus, like Caroline Myss, Ram Dass, Wayne Dyer,

Zukav etc... you will at least understand where I am coming from. Like,

there are no accidents. Maybe I have this mom, at this time, and this

role for a reason... Maybe it's karma. Maybe I'm just desperate to

understand.... I even had one new-agey kind of healer person say to me,

" You came to contain her fear and rage so the family could survive. " How

nice. They could have at least given me a manual with directions so my

own self wouldn't have been so damaged in the process! And if it's true,

then I did indeed save the family. I should be grateful for my role.

I've done my job well. Gag.

And Rosemary wrote:

> I was in exactly your situation. You nada has so many hooks in you,

> you don't know where they are all embedded. She can tug those hooks

> and spin you around just like a puppet, and you have no idea what's

> going on. I was the golden child too. My nada's caretaker, defender,

> therapist, and surrogate spouse. It's called parentification, and it's

> abuse.

Exactly. It's the hooks. She can get me so fast and so hard. I have

often said that I was her surrogate spouse. She got her intimacy and

friendship needs met through me. When she was depressed, I listened.

When she was suicidal, I set my own needs aside and took care of hers.

She is agoraphobic. I rescued, rescued, rescued... was terrified and

didn't even know it at the time. My awareness is all hindsight.

It seems to me that mom needs to be a victim. If no one is abusing her,

she will somehow spin things and make it appear that way. I don't think

this is conscious. I don't think she knows how to be any other way. So

you would think, if I " get " that, then I would not be so hurt when she

does her stuff. But she often catches me by surprise. Maybe because she

often seems perfectly nice and normal. It's like, I begin to relax,

maybe open the window just a crack, and I'm just so relieved to have a

mom that seems to like me again. Then the other side of her comes out of

nowhere. I have no idea what triggers that other side, but I'm usually

the recipient of it. I never know what I will get when I call her or she

calls me.

> It took me 30 years to realize what she had done to me all of these

> years. I still have virtually no memory of specific examples, and when

> I go to describe the abuse to some people, I lack the words.

I understand this so clearly, Rosemary. That is why I came back to this

list. I think people actually have to experience the weirdness to

understand. It cannot be described in words alone. You have to actually

have felt the energetic tug that people with BPD are so good at. I have

described my mom to my therapist as an emotional vampire... she quite

literally sucks the life out of me. It only takes one phone call, and I

am teary & unsettled for the rest of the day... sometimes a week. I was

her primary caretaker until about a year ago. I thought it would get

better with the distance between us (I only see her once a year now). I

was wrong. It's actually worse now. Now that she doesn't need me

anymore, she can abuse me all the more.

> Eventually, when I realized that she was not going to change no matter

> how strong I was, I divorced her. It's been two years, and I feel like

> a new person.

By " divorced her, " do you mean you no longer have any contact with her?

This is what my therapist has suggested. I think it is probably a very

wise and strong thing to do. But it doesn't seem like the right thing to

do for me. Not now anyway. My family would think I was totally insane.

It would hurt mom so deeply, and because she is so ill and probably

close to the end of her life, they would all see me as heartless and

cruel. I think I would even see myself that way. I feel like my time is

gone for drawing really good boundaries or ending my relationship with

her entirely.

I should have done this a long time ago, but I didn't get it then like I

do now.

And Debbie wrote:

> even when Megatron (my nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to

you " ,

> my explanations seem silly. I know the sly, insulting and undermining

things

> she has done are cruel and abusive, but when I start to list them I

sometimes

> feel like I am the biggest, pettiest b***h in the world.

Debbie, my mom just did this number on me yesterday! My birthday. I had

sent a Christmas package to her, and she called to thank me and told me

how I always send the most thoughtful and perfect gifts. And the card

made her cry. She was even choked up a bit on the phone as she told me.

Then she got real. Sounded very genuine, and said something like she

felt like she had lost her best friend. I told her I felt the same way.

But then she said, " Well, how can I defend myself if you won't tell me

what it is that I've said to hurt you? " We've been here before. I tried

to tell her previously and all she would say is, " Oh, Kathy, I didn't

say it like that. " Or she even totally denies the things she's said and

done. So yesterday, I just said, " Mom, you don't need to defend

yourself. Whenever I do tell you, you deny that you said it, so we

obviously perceived things very differently. We'll just have to agree to

disagree. " She pushed a little further, and I could just feel the hooks

digging in. So I said, " No. There is too much water under the bridge.

Let's just let it go. " But see, she can't. She told me she feels hatred

from me. ???????? I feel hatred from her... palpable hostility that

feels like it's poisoning me. What the heck? That's when I lose my grip.

I start to think, " What if I AM part of the problem? What if it's me? "

And my biggest, BIGGEST, mistake, is that we really were best friends.

She knows me inside and out. I had no idea my own mother would ever

betray me the way she has.

And woven into all of this was what she wants at her funeral (which

realistically will probably take place sooner than later). I was always

the musical one in the family, so she wants me to take care of the

music. So I'm planning my mom's funeral, saying goodbye to my best

friend and worst enemy, and still trying to protect myself from the

side-door hooks... This is the stuff that makes people crazy.

Thanks for being there, gang...

Kathy

p.s. Debbie... Megatron??? LOL

[Guest guest]

Yes, this subtlety and insidiousness is exactly my experience as

well. I also end up feeling like a whiny, selfish b***h. I

cope with it the same way as you... how does it make me FEEL.

If I'm hurt, angry, unhappy, etc., then that's good enough.

Luckily, my husband and friends are very understanding, and

trust me to know what's going on. In other words, they don't

ask me to " prove " that I have the right to feel the way I do

(i.e., come up with evidence and explanations). As far as

extended family, it's really not an issue for me. My father was

an only child, and both of his parents are dead. My mom has two

sisters and a surviving father, but they live half way across

the country, and I have never been close to them. My in-laws

more or less keep their nose out of my business (especially

after a recent situation where I made it clear I did not want

them involved in what goes on between me and my mom).

So, for me, the main issue is how do *I* deal with her, and

thankfully, I don't have to take the extended FOO into

consideration. Also, I don't have any kids yet, so that hasn't

been a complication. And, yes, I need that bolstering and

support too -- those encounters can really shake your center!

Hugs,

Anon

--- sweepea1215@... wrote:

> Kathy,

>

> Welcome to the group. I am once again amused to read my story

> with somebody

> else's name on it! Don't fell like the lone ranger....even

> when Megatron (my

> nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to you " , my

> explanations seem silly.

> I know the sly, insulting and undermining things she has done

> are cruel and

> abusive, but when I start to list them I sometimes feel like I

> am the

> biggest, pettiest b***h in the world. Megatron spent years

> conditioning that

> respopnse in me...I am trying to unlearn it. I remind myself

> that the bottom

> line is not what other people (including herself) think of how

> she

> acts....but how it makes me feel. Of course, after an

> encounter with

> Megatron, I usually need bolstering and validation. Thank God

> for this list!

>

>

> Look forward to " hearing " from you soon.

>

> Debbie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Yes, this subtlety and insidiousness is exactly my experience as

well. I also end up feeling like a whiny, selfish b***h. I

cope with it the same way as you... how does it make me FEEL.

If I'm hurt, angry, unhappy, etc., then that's good enough.

Luckily, my husband and friends are very understanding, and

trust me to know what's going on. In other words, they don't

ask me to " prove " that I have the right to feel the way I do

(i.e., come up with evidence and explanations). As far as

extended family, it's really not an issue for me. My father was

an only child, and both of his parents are dead. My mom has two

sisters and a surviving father, but they live half way across

the country, and I have never been close to them. My in-laws

more or less keep their nose out of my business (especially

after a recent situation where I made it clear I did not want

them involved in what goes on between me and my mom).

So, for me, the main issue is how do *I* deal with her, and

thankfully, I don't have to take the extended FOO into

consideration. Also, I don't have any kids yet, so that hasn't

been a complication. And, yes, I need that bolstering and

support too -- those encounters can really shake your center!

Hugs,

Anon

--- sweepea1215@... wrote:

> Kathy,

>

> Welcome to the group. I am once again amused to read my story

> with somebody

> else's name on it! Don't fell like the lone ranger....even

> when Megatron (my

> nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to you " , my

> explanations seem silly.

> I know the sly, insulting and undermining things she has done

> are cruel and

> abusive, but when I start to list them I sometimes feel like I

> am the

> biggest, pettiest b***h in the world. Megatron spent years

> conditioning that

> respopnse in me...I am trying to unlearn it. I remind myself

> that the bottom

> line is not what other people (including herself) think of how

> she

> acts....but how it makes me feel. Of course, after an

> encounter with

> Megatron, I usually need bolstering and validation. Thank God

> for this list!

>

>

> Look forward to " hearing " from you soon.

>

> Debbie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy.....

Is there a way to set boundaries around the life you have? Like

controlled phone calling, so you can prepare for the interaction.

My nada is happiest when she has everyone jumping for her.

It was my birthday on Friday and she blew me off, also blew off

my sister who is coming out of the fog with me.

My problem, my true problem and shortcoming is that for the

past 20 years I have put my parents and siblings first over my

own SIX kids and husband. I was aiming attention to them that

should have been for my kids. They have occupied my mind, my

resources,....what Edit says...living rent free in my head.

My nada was a kid during WW2 in the Philippines.No matter

what she has been responsible for as a mother, she will morph

it to look like a victim and leave her children in the dust. She

comes first.

Anyway, since I " divorced " her by asking her to leave one day

early from her 6 month annual visit, things got worse and then

got better. I went into therapy and that, and this list (more of this

list) has been very helpful. I survived the scathing aftermath of my

siblings backlash for " throwing Mama out " , and the subsequent

violent email etc. It was not pleasant but it served to make the

boundary an absolute necessity.

In that period when everyone left me alone I felt better and better.

On my birthday I got 2 phone calls and unfortunately, I took them.

I now know that No One has the right to burst into my head

without my permission. I cannot be cooking or reading or going

with my life and then take a phone call from one of my sibs who

is championing nada. It puts me in a position of being defensive

and having to " think of my feet " and yes, take abuse.

Well...that episode didn't spoil my birthday but it was an

eye-opener and showed me what I have to do to keep in a " safe

zone " .

I can see that this is a serious job to undo a lifetime of

invalidation. It has really bothered me, come to the crisis point

because my sister died last year. In my sibling group, there were

three of us who were extremely close. My sister Lizzie was my

soul sister, and she had suffered extensively from the Witch,

Queen, and Waif nada modes. She never dealt with the dirt from

the childhood except to forgive at the end of her life. After Lizzie

died, I found it totally unbearable, completely impossible to deal

with nada's games, which had taken a twist of fantastic

" memories " of things that didn't happen. It so bothered me, and

given my cultural upbringing with kneejerk obedience to adults, I

had never had the experience of " talking back " or being angry to

my mother's face. So when I was finally able to get my feelings

out - I was totally punished for it.

Most recently she has decided to go around me to my children.

But I have closed that hole in the fence too.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy.....

Is there a way to set boundaries around the life you have? Like

controlled phone calling, so you can prepare for the interaction.

My nada is happiest when she has everyone jumping for her.

It was my birthday on Friday and she blew me off, also blew off

my sister who is coming out of the fog with me.

My problem, my true problem and shortcoming is that for the

past 20 years I have put my parents and siblings first over my

own SIX kids and husband. I was aiming attention to them that

should have been for my kids. They have occupied my mind, my

resources,....what Edit says...living rent free in my head.

My nada was a kid during WW2 in the Philippines.No matter

what she has been responsible for as a mother, she will morph

it to look like a victim and leave her children in the dust. She

comes first.

Anyway, since I " divorced " her by asking her to leave one day

early from her 6 month annual visit, things got worse and then

got better. I went into therapy and that, and this list (more of this

list) has been very helpful. I survived the scathing aftermath of my

siblings backlash for " throwing Mama out " , and the subsequent

violent email etc. It was not pleasant but it served to make the

boundary an absolute necessity.

In that period when everyone left me alone I felt better and better.

On my birthday I got 2 phone calls and unfortunately, I took them.

I now know that No One has the right to burst into my head

without my permission. I cannot be cooking or reading or going

with my life and then take a phone call from one of my sibs who

is championing nada. It puts me in a position of being defensive

and having to " think of my feet " and yes, take abuse.

Well...that episode didn't spoil my birthday but it was an

eye-opener and showed me what I have to do to keep in a " safe

zone " .

I can see that this is a serious job to undo a lifetime of

invalidation. It has really bothered me, come to the crisis point

because my sister died last year. In my sibling group, there were

three of us who were extremely close. My sister Lizzie was my

soul sister, and she had suffered extensively from the Witch,

Queen, and Waif nada modes. She never dealt with the dirt from

the childhood except to forgive at the end of her life. After Lizzie

died, I found it totally unbearable, completely impossible to deal

with nada's games, which had taken a twist of fantastic

" memories " of things that didn't happen. It so bothered me, and

given my cultural upbringing with kneejerk obedience to adults, I

had never had the experience of " talking back " or being angry to

my mother's face. So when I was finally able to get my feelings

out - I was totally punished for it.

Most recently she has decided to go around me to my children.

But I have closed that hole in the fence too.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy.....

Is there a way to set boundaries around the life you have? Like

controlled phone calling, so you can prepare for the interaction.

My nada is happiest when she has everyone jumping for her.

It was my birthday on Friday and she blew me off, also blew off

my sister who is coming out of the fog with me.

My problem, my true problem and shortcoming is that for the

past 20 years I have put my parents and siblings first over my

own SIX kids and husband. I was aiming attention to them that

should have been for my kids. They have occupied my mind, my

resources,....what Edit says...living rent free in my head.

My nada was a kid during WW2 in the Philippines.No matter

what she has been responsible for as a mother, she will morph

it to look like a victim and leave her children in the dust. She

comes first.

Anyway, since I " divorced " her by asking her to leave one day

early from her 6 month annual visit, things got worse and then

got better. I went into therapy and that, and this list (more of this

list) has been very helpful. I survived the scathing aftermath of my

siblings backlash for " throwing Mama out " , and the subsequent

violent email etc. It was not pleasant but it served to make the

boundary an absolute necessity.

In that period when everyone left me alone I felt better and better.

On my birthday I got 2 phone calls and unfortunately, I took them.

I now know that No One has the right to burst into my head

without my permission. I cannot be cooking or reading or going

with my life and then take a phone call from one of my sibs who

is championing nada. It puts me in a position of being defensive

and having to " think of my feet " and yes, take abuse.

Well...that episode didn't spoil my birthday but it was an

eye-opener and showed me what I have to do to keep in a " safe

zone " .

I can see that this is a serious job to undo a lifetime of

invalidation. It has really bothered me, come to the crisis point

because my sister died last year. In my sibling group, there were

three of us who were extremely close. My sister Lizzie was my

soul sister, and she had suffered extensively from the Witch,

Queen, and Waif nada modes. She never dealt with the dirt from

the childhood except to forgive at the end of her life. After Lizzie

died, I found it totally unbearable, completely impossible to deal

with nada's games, which had taken a twist of fantastic

" memories " of things that didn't happen. It so bothered me, and

given my cultural upbringing with kneejerk obedience to adults, I

had never had the experience of " talking back " or being angry to

my mother's face. So when I was finally able to get my feelings

out - I was totally punished for it.

Most recently she has decided to go around me to my children.

But I have closed that hole in the fence too.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

>>Exactly what have I done to you " , my explanations seem silly.>>>

I'm not sure, but isn't this called discounting? She did it to us and now we do

it to ourselves.

I've been caught on this so many times and kept playing the same old record over

and over and over and over.......

Ilene

[Guest guest]

>>Exactly what have I done to you " , my explanations seem silly.>>>

I'm not sure, but isn't this called discounting? She did it to us and now we do

it to ourselves.

I've been caught on this so many times and kept playing the same old record over

and over and over and over.......

Ilene

[Guest guest]

>>Exactly what have I done to you " , my explanations seem silly.>>>

I'm not sure, but isn't this called discounting? She did it to us and now we do

it to ourselves.

I've been caught on this so many times and kept playing the same old record over

and over and over and over.......

Ilene

[Guest guest]

" I also feel like I need to be able to work through this before I start

practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own subconscious

baggage to interfere with someone else's process. "

If you wait till you work through all of this you'll never work as

counselor. There's always another layer uncovered. It's good to keep

that in mind, and it's good to be working on it. You want to be one

level higher than the clients, (at least) but don't expect to be baggage

free.

I find that even now I learn from my clients and they learn from me. If

an issue comes up, and it does very rarely, probably less than 5 times

in 18 years, I just ask the client be transfered or... I try to figure

out why that client was but into my life at that time and what is it

that I need to be working on. Then eventually both the client and I

grow. Not because I shared anything that would ruin the client/counselor

relationship, but because I go home and journal and ask why this client

stirred up feelings.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

" I also feel like I need to be able to work through this before I start

practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own subconscious

baggage to interfere with someone else's process. "

If you wait till you work through all of this you'll never work as

counselor. There's always another layer uncovered. It's good to keep

that in mind, and it's good to be working on it. You want to be one

level higher than the clients, (at least) but don't expect to be baggage

free.

I find that even now I learn from my clients and they learn from me. If

an issue comes up, and it does very rarely, probably less than 5 times

in 18 years, I just ask the client be transfered or... I try to figure

out why that client was but into my life at that time and what is it

that I need to be working on. Then eventually both the client and I

grow. Not because I shared anything that would ruin the client/counselor

relationship, but because I go home and journal and ask why this client

stirred up feelings.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

" I also feel like I need to be able to work through this before I start

practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own subconscious

baggage to interfere with someone else's process. "

If you wait till you work through all of this you'll never work as

counselor. There's always another layer uncovered. It's good to keep

that in mind, and it's good to be working on it. You want to be one

level higher than the clients, (at least) but don't expect to be baggage

free.

I find that even now I learn from my clients and they learn from me. If

an issue comes up, and it does very rarely, probably less than 5 times

in 18 years, I just ask the client be transfered or... I try to figure

out why that client was but into my life at that time and what is it

that I need to be working on. Then eventually both the client and I

grow. Not because I shared anything that would ruin the client/counselor

relationship, but because I go home and journal and ask why this client

stirred up feelings.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

Kathy wrote:

<<

.... I was on the list for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are

WonderKid and still here???) ...

>>

Hi Kathy,

Yup, its me -- WondrrKid.

Wow, we're talking about 1996 and maybe 1997 cuz that's when was

on the list. It was on July 4, 1997 I learned that my nada (ie,

not-a-mother) was an emotional 2-year-old. And, over the years I've

found more and more of the missing pieces of the puzzle -- eg, my nada

was both NPD (Narcissistic PD) and BPD. I was parentified, like you.

And, a year or so later I learned that my nada was still living

rent-free in my head -- that was 12 years *after* her death -- and I

kicked her arse OUT!! Then I went through a period where I stared at the

wall for about a month -- trying to figure out which thoughts were HERS

and which were mine. I had to re-process all the 'scripts' in my head

and, in the process, I came out of a lifetime of depression that I

wasn't even aware of. And, all along the way as I became aware of them,

I worked on my 'fleas' (ie, projection, denial, splitting,

rationalization) -- ie, traits that I had *learned* from having had a

nada as one of my most important role models in my FOO (family of

origin). My hypervigilance and PTSD left two years ago. And, now, here I

am standing in the light at the end of the tunnel. It took a **LOT** of

work to arrive at where I am now. I now have peace in my life and my

life is gooooood.

I'm glad you found us.

Hugs,

Edith

- Moderator

[Guest guest]

Kathy wrote:

<<

.... I was on the list for adult children of BPs a few years ago (are

WonderKid and still here???) ...

>>

Hi Kathy,

Yup, its me -- WondrrKid.

Wow, we're talking about 1996 and maybe 1997 cuz that's when was

on the list. It was on July 4, 1997 I learned that my nada (ie,

not-a-mother) was an emotional 2-year-old. And, over the years I've

found more and more of the missing pieces of the puzzle -- eg, my nada

was both NPD (Narcissistic PD) and BPD. I was parentified, like you.

And, a year or so later I learned that my nada was still living

rent-free in my head -- that was 12 years *after* her death -- and I

kicked her arse OUT!! Then I went through a period where I stared at the

wall for about a month -- trying to figure out which thoughts were HERS

and which were mine. I had to re-process all the 'scripts' in my head

and, in the process, I came out of a lifetime of depression that I

wasn't even aware of. And, all along the way as I became aware of them,

I worked on my 'fleas' (ie, projection, denial, splitting,

rationalization) -- ie, traits that I had *learned* from having had a

nada as one of my most important role models in my FOO (family of

origin). My hypervigilance and PTSD left two years ago. And, now, here I

am standing in the light at the end of the tunnel. It took a **LOT** of

work to arrive at where I am now. I now have peace in my life and my

life is gooooood.

I'm glad you found us.

Hugs,

Edith

- Moderator

[Guest guest]

Kathy-

You have to get Understanding the Borderline Mother. My sister and I

sat there and read it together. It explained our entire lives. I'd

like to nominate Lawson for a Nobel Prize.

Rosemary

>

> > even when Megatron (my nada) asks me " Exactly what have I done to

> you " ,

> > my explanations seem silly. I know the sly, insulting and

undermining

> things

> > she has done are cruel and abusive, but when I start to list them

I

> sometimes

> > feel like I am the biggest, pettiest b***h in the world.

>

> Debbie, my mom just did this number on me yesterday! My birthday. I

had

> sent a Christmas package to her, and she called to thank me and

told me

> how I always send the most thoughtful and perfect gifts. And the

card

> made her cry. She was even choked up a bit on the phone as she told

me.

> Then she got real. Sounded very genuine, and said something like she

> felt like she had lost her best friend. I told her I felt the same

way.

> But then she said, " Well, how can I defend myself if you won't tell

me

> what it is that I've said to hurt you? " We've been here before. I

tried

> to tell her previously and all she would say is, " Oh, Kathy, I

didn't

> say it like that. " Or she even totally denies the things she's said

and

> done. So yesterday, I just said, " Mom, you don't need to defend

> yourself. Whenever I do tell you, you deny that you said it, so we

> obviously perceived things very differently. We'll just have to

agree to

> disagree. " She pushed a little further, and I could just feel the

hooks

> digging in. So I said, " No. There is too much water under the

bridge.

> Let's just let it go. " But see, she can't. She told me she feels

hatred

> from me. ???????? I feel hatred from her... palpable hostility that

> feels like it's poisoning me. What the heck? That's when I lose my

grip.

> I start to think, " What if I AM part of the problem? What if it's

me? "

> And my biggest, BIGGEST, mistake, is that we really were best

friends.

> She knows me inside and out. I had no idea my own mother would ever

> betray me the way she has.

> And woven into all of this was what she wants at her funeral (which

> realistically will probably take place sooner than later). I was

always

> the musical one in the family, so she wants me to take care of the

> music. So I'm planning my mom's funeral, saying goodbye to my best

> friend and worst enemy, and still trying to protect myself from the

> side-door hooks... This is the stuff that makes people crazy.

>

> Thanks for being there, gang...

> Kathy

>

> p.s. Debbie... Megatron??? LOL

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

said:

>>If you wait till you work through all of this you'll never work as

>>counselor.

I second that motion. Here we talk about being on a journey together.

Some of us are further along on the road than others, but it's all

the same road.

There's also an idea in mythology called the " wounded healer. " The

wounded healer is a better doctor because he/she understands pain and

has the capacity for compassion.

Take care,

Rosemary

> " I also feel like I need to be able to work through this before I

start

> practicing as a counselor. I don't want any of my own subconscious

> baggage to interfere with someone else's process. "

>

> If you wait till you work through all of this you'll never work as

> counselor. There's always another layer uncovered. It's good to keep

> that in mind, and it's good to be working on it. You want to be one

> level higher than the clients, (at least) but don't expect to be

baggage

> free.

>

> I find that even now I learn from my clients and they learn from

me. If

> an issue comes up, and it does very rarely, probably less than 5

times

> in 18 years, I just ask the client be transfered or... I try to

figure

> out why that client was but into my life at that time and what is it

> that I need to be working on. Then eventually both the client and I

> grow. Not because I shared anything that would ruin the

client/counselor

> relationship, but because I go home and journal and ask why this

client

> stirred up feelings.

>

> ** , Stinky's caretaker**

> Froehliche Weihnachten,

> Merry Christmas