Re: Something I want to share...

[Guest guest]

Oh my gosh! I can relate to this stuff.................. See my

comments inserted below.

Best wishes,

Carol

WonderrKid@... wrote:

> In her book, Understanding The Borderline Mother, Ann

> Lawson wrote:

>

> " Children of borderlines cannot understand themselves without

> first understanding their mothers. ... (p 299)

So so so so so so true!

> " Children of borderlnes are not sure what their own minds are like

> and are frightened by what they see in their mother. ... (p 299)

I think this is true, because I'm just now beginning to realize how much

in denial I've been for my entire life.

> " Children of borderlines try to avoid seeing their mother's darkness.

> (p 299)

Absolutely! I had mother on a pedestal, until this last decade, when

things began to steadily crumble.

> Although they sense their mother's helplessness, emptiness, fear, and

> anger, they develop defenses that prevent them from drowning in

> anxiety. (p 299)

Anxiety! That's the key word. My anxiety levels increased to

exponential proportions this past decade, as mother's problems

increasingly encroached into my life. Now that mother and I are

divorced, my life has gotten back on track. No tension, no anxiety,

renewed health and vigor, and increasing happiness. It took getting

away from mother to realize how anxious I'd become.

> " Children of borderlines may spend their entire lives trying to

> understand their mother and themselves.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! I've spent my entire adult life, and even my

later teen years, trying to figure mother out. And I've done a pretty

good job of it too, except I missed the boat with one

thing.............. mental illness. I never in a million years thought

she was mentally ill, not even when it was subtly suggested by others.

No way! Mother was just an alcoholic.

> They [children] are preoccupied with sorting out the meanings of

> interactions, studying their own perceptions, and questioning the

> intentions of others. ... (p 301)

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! I've also spent my entire adult life studying

astrology, because it gave me insight to other people's natures so I

could better understand them. And yes, if I really am honest about it,

I have a very natural distrust of other's intentions. I always want to

know " where they're coming from " , so I can position myself accordingly.

I'm extremely perceptive and can pick up on stuff that others miss. I'm

an excellent judge of character too. And I've prided myself on these

well honed abilities too. It's a defense mechanism for coping with a

BPD mother, isn't it? It's all making sense now.

> " Children of borderlines must work through intense feelings of rage

> not only toward their mothers, but also toward their fathers. ...

> (p 301)

Mother divorced dad when I was 8, and I've never lived with dad since,

so I didn't really get to know him until after I was married. And

surprise of all surprises, he wasn't the ogre I thought he was. Rage

for mother? Yes!!! I've had plenty of it the past ten years that

needed to be worked through.

> " The father, however, is often torn between loyalty to his wife and

> loyalty to his chidren.

Yes! Yes! Yes! This played out many times, not so much with me, but

with dad and my brother.

> The borderline wife's retaliatory rage and sensitivity to abandonment

> can leave both father and child fearful and torn between the objects

> of their love. ... Idealization of the father prevents depression

> and rage from surfacing and protects the child from feeling orphaned.

> (p 302)

Not sure I can relate to this part, except one thing comes to mind. I

never idolized my dad, not even before the divorce. Instead, I idolized

my mother's brother (my uncle), who'd bounce us on his knees, take us

places, etc. My memories of dad were faint, distant, aloof, maybe even

absent. Yet, dad worked hard, earned a good living, and adored his

family.

> " Adult children of borderline mothers must return to the past for the

> sake of their future.

So true! As these last nightmarish years unfolded, I couldn't

understand the basis for mother's horrific actions against me. I

desperately needed and wanted to know more about her childhood and the

years with dad. What REALLY made her tick? What didn't I know that

might help me to understand her better? I was forever trying to

understand, understand, understand.

> The last half of their [adult children's] lives can become the best half if

they

> disinter the real self and rediscover their lost exuberance, their own free

> will, and their uninhibited creative self. (p. 303)

So so so so so so true! In my case, it happened at the beginning of

what will probably be my last third of life. Better late then never!

> " No greater gift exists than a life of unrestrained love and joy.

> (p 303)

Amen!

[Guest guest]

Oh my gosh! I can relate to this stuff.................. See my

comments inserted below.

Best wishes,

Carol

WonderrKid@... wrote:

> In her book, Understanding The Borderline Mother, Ann

> Lawson wrote:

>

> " Children of borderlines cannot understand themselves without

> first understanding their mothers. ... (p 299)

So so so so so so true!

> " Children of borderlnes are not sure what their own minds are like

> and are frightened by what they see in their mother. ... (p 299)

I think this is true, because I'm just now beginning to realize how much

in denial I've been for my entire life.

> " Children of borderlines try to avoid seeing their mother's darkness.

> (p 299)

Absolutely! I had mother on a pedestal, until this last decade, when

things began to steadily crumble.

> Although they sense their mother's helplessness, emptiness, fear, and

> anger, they develop defenses that prevent them from drowning in

> anxiety. (p 299)

Anxiety! That's the key word. My anxiety levels increased to

exponential proportions this past decade, as mother's problems

increasingly encroached into my life. Now that mother and I are

divorced, my life has gotten back on track. No tension, no anxiety,

renewed health and vigor, and increasing happiness. It took getting

away from mother to realize how anxious I'd become.

> " Children of borderlines may spend their entire lives trying to

> understand their mother and themselves.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! I've spent my entire adult life, and even my

later teen years, trying to figure mother out. And I've done a pretty

good job of it too, except I missed the boat with one

thing.............. mental illness. I never in a million years thought

she was mentally ill, not even when it was subtly suggested by others.

No way! Mother was just an alcoholic.

> They [children] are preoccupied with sorting out the meanings of

> interactions, studying their own perceptions, and questioning the

> intentions of others. ... (p 301)

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! I've also spent my entire adult life studying

astrology, because it gave me insight to other people's natures so I

could better understand them. And yes, if I really am honest about it,

I have a very natural distrust of other's intentions. I always want to

know " where they're coming from " , so I can position myself accordingly.

I'm extremely perceptive and can pick up on stuff that others miss. I'm

an excellent judge of character too. And I've prided myself on these

well honed abilities too. It's a defense mechanism for coping with a

BPD mother, isn't it? It's all making sense now.

> " Children of borderlines must work through intense feelings of rage

> not only toward their mothers, but also toward their fathers. ...

> (p 301)

Mother divorced dad when I was 8, and I've never lived with dad since,

so I didn't really get to know him until after I was married. And

surprise of all surprises, he wasn't the ogre I thought he was. Rage

for mother? Yes!!! I've had plenty of it the past ten years that

needed to be worked through.

> " The father, however, is often torn between loyalty to his wife and

> loyalty to his chidren.

Yes! Yes! Yes! This played out many times, not so much with me, but

with dad and my brother.

> The borderline wife's retaliatory rage and sensitivity to abandonment

> can leave both father and child fearful and torn between the objects

> of their love. ... Idealization of the father prevents depression

> and rage from surfacing and protects the child from feeling orphaned.

> (p 302)

Not sure I can relate to this part, except one thing comes to mind. I

never idolized my dad, not even before the divorce. Instead, I idolized

my mother's brother (my uncle), who'd bounce us on his knees, take us

places, etc. My memories of dad were faint, distant, aloof, maybe even

absent. Yet, dad worked hard, earned a good living, and adored his

family.

> " Adult children of borderline mothers must return to the past for the

> sake of their future.

So true! As these last nightmarish years unfolded, I couldn't

understand the basis for mother's horrific actions against me. I

desperately needed and wanted to know more about her childhood and the

years with dad. What REALLY made her tick? What didn't I know that

might help me to understand her better? I was forever trying to

understand, understand, understand.

> The last half of their [adult children's] lives can become the best half if

they

> disinter the real self and rediscover their lost exuberance, their own free

> will, and their uninhibited creative self. (p. 303)

So so so so so so true! In my case, it happened at the beginning of

what will probably be my last third of life. Better late then never!

> " No greater gift exists than a life of unrestrained love and joy.

> (p 303)

Amen!

[Guest guest]

>

> " Adult children of borderline mothers must return to the past for

the sake of

> their future. The last half of their lives can become the best half

if they

> disinter the real self and rediscover their lost exuberance, their

own free

> will, and their uninhibited creative self. (p. 303)

>

> " No greater gift exists than a life of unrestrained love and joy. (p

303)

That is what I am trying to do. Oh it is hard sometimes. Today I

was feeling " wobbly " about nada. I was remembering the good

times we had and wondering if she missed me. Then I thought

about the possibility of getting in touch with her. Then......I thought

about how she did not love my sister, and how hateful she was

and how judgemental my family was to me. No one has called

me or contacted me to see how I am doing. Only received two

attack emails from my brothers. That is the family in its natural

state.

I have to remember that I am the one who has always tried to

give them the benefit of the doubt. I've made peace, made

meetings, and expended myself in the work of keeping the family

together. I consoled my brothers when my sister died, I was

there for my mother.

But was any one of them there for me even once? Nope. They

really don't care, and now I am finding my own way without them.

I have this book by the Friels on What is Normal and I enjoy

looking through it. I also read over and over the definition of the

Good Mom vs. the Borderline Mom that Edith put up.

I really have tried to be the Good Mom and from the looks of

things, I'm on the right track. I cannot believe how many years I've

wasted putting my energy into my FOO. I'm very motivated to

make up for any lost time there.

Wish me strength for the journey because today it was harder

than usual.

What gave me some strength was realizing that when my mother

was basically my age, she had decided that we would all work

and contribute to the household. Contribute the whole paycheck.

My father and mother depended on the kids to support them

when they were MY age. I could hardly believe that today when I

calculated their ages and mine when I was 20. Today I am 44

and I would NEVER think of putting my teenagers in a

breadwinning role. How could nada have thought such a thing?

But looking back at how I viewed her then, I looked at her as a

frail little old lady. Even when she was in her 40's. In fact, I can

see very little change in her demeanor from the time she was in

her 40's to now in her 70's. What I was seeing was the shift from

Queen/Witch to Waif.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

--- WonderrKid@... wrote:

> " Children of borderlines cannot understand

> themselves without first

> understanding their mothers. ... (p 299)

>

> " Children of borderlnes are not sure what their own

> minds are like and are

> frightened by what they see in their mother. ... (p

> 299)

Thank you for sharing Edith. When I first made the

choice to face my fears and delve into what *is* nada,

this was exactly what I needed to do - to learn about

nada so I could learn about myself. I was posting on

another board and had posted about the last

interaction I'd had w/my brother & his wife. I was

given advice like - *Let go, don't give them power

over you. No one can *make* you feel anything...* It's

not that simple - for me, I had to know what it was

that I was to let go of. I had to understand it.

I also appreciate what you posted about idealizing the

father. Sometimes facing the fact that other members

of the family are not as wonderful as we idealize them

to be is a diffficult but necessary thing to do. We

perceive them as being healthy - at least more so than

nada. We have expectations that they can see and

understand our plight. Expectations in toxic families

can be devasting when they don't come to fruition.

I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and came

upon some interesting passages that I'd highlighted.

One of them being that the victim is often the

healthiest person in the family - because they ARE the

victim, they've had the worst experience. It's easiest

for them to see the truth - they have the most pain.

We may expect that other members in the family see and

feel the same way we do - when in reality, they just

don't.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- WonderrKid@... wrote:

> " Children of borderlines cannot understand

> themselves without first

> understanding their mothers. ... (p 299)

>

> " Children of borderlnes are not sure what their own

> minds are like and are

> frightened by what they see in their mother. ... (p

> 299)

Thank you for sharing Edith. When I first made the

choice to face my fears and delve into what *is* nada,

this was exactly what I needed to do - to learn about

nada so I could learn about myself. I was posting on

another board and had posted about the last

interaction I'd had w/my brother & his wife. I was

given advice like - *Let go, don't give them power

over you. No one can *make* you feel anything...* It's

not that simple - for me, I had to know what it was

that I was to let go of. I had to understand it.

I also appreciate what you posted about idealizing the

father. Sometimes facing the fact that other members

of the family are not as wonderful as we idealize them

to be is a diffficult but necessary thing to do. We

perceive them as being healthy - at least more so than

nada. We have expectations that they can see and

understand our plight. Expectations in toxic families

can be devasting when they don't come to fruition.

I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and came

upon some interesting passages that I'd highlighted.

One of them being that the victim is often the

healthiest person in the family - because they ARE the

victim, they've had the worst experience. It's easiest

for them to see the truth - they have the most pain.

We may expect that other members in the family see and

feel the same way we do - when in reality, they just

don't.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- WonderrKid@... wrote:

> " Children of borderlines cannot understand

> themselves without first

> understanding their mothers. ... (p 299)

>

> " Children of borderlnes are not sure what their own

> minds are like and are

> frightened by what they see in their mother. ... (p

> 299)

Thank you for sharing Edith. When I first made the

choice to face my fears and delve into what *is* nada,

this was exactly what I needed to do - to learn about

nada so I could learn about myself. I was posting on

another board and had posted about the last

interaction I'd had w/my brother & his wife. I was

given advice like - *Let go, don't give them power

over you. No one can *make* you feel anything...* It's

not that simple - for me, I had to know what it was

that I was to let go of. I had to understand it.

I also appreciate what you posted about idealizing the

father. Sometimes facing the fact that other members

of the family are not as wonderful as we idealize them

to be is a diffficult but necessary thing to do. We

perceive them as being healthy - at least more so than

nada. We have expectations that they can see and

understand our plight. Expectations in toxic families

can be devasting when they don't come to fruition.

I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and came

upon some interesting passages that I'd highlighted.

One of them being that the victim is often the

healthiest person in the family - because they ARE the

victim, they've had the worst experience. It's easiest

for them to see the truth - they have the most pain.

We may expect that other members in the family see and

feel the same way we do - when in reality, they just

don't.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyndie

Thanks for this. In our entire family, I'm the only one who has researched

the nada problem and has some insight into the root of it - in fact, the

only one who cared at all to figure out what on earth is going on. Does this

mean I'm healthy?

Minja

> Re: Something I want to share...

> I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and came

> upon some interesting passages that I'd highlighted.

> One of them being that the victim is often the

> healthiest person in the family - because they ARE the

> victim, they've had the worst experience. It's easiest

> for them to see the truth - they have the most pain.

> We may expect that other members in the family see and

> feel the same way we do - when in reality, they just

> don't.

>

> Cyndie

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyndie

Thanks for this. In our entire family, I'm the only one who has researched

the nada problem and has some insight into the root of it - in fact, the

only one who cared at all to figure out what on earth is going on. Does this

mean I'm healthy?

Minja

> Re: Something I want to share...

> I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and came

> upon some interesting passages that I'd highlighted.

> One of them being that the victim is often the

> healthiest person in the family - because they ARE the

> victim, they've had the worst experience. It's easiest

> for them to see the truth - they have the most pain.

> We may expect that other members in the family see and

> feel the same way we do - when in reality, they just

> don't.

>

> Cyndie

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyndie

Thanks for this. In our entire family, I'm the only one who has researched

the nada problem and has some insight into the root of it - in fact, the

only one who cared at all to figure out what on earth is going on. Does this

mean I'm healthy?

Minja

> Re: Something I want to share...

> I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and came

> upon some interesting passages that I'd highlighted.

> One of them being that the victim is often the

> healthiest person in the family - because they ARE the

> victim, they've had the worst experience. It's easiest

> for them to see the truth - they have the most pain.

> We may expect that other members in the family see and

> feel the same way we do - when in reality, they just

> don't.

>

> Cyndie

[Guest guest]

ditto here....actually my sisters, Mimi and Lizzie (who passed

away) were very interested in dissecting the nada problem. Other

family members called it " obsessing " . I found it to be like a

scientific inquiry.

That book " Understanding the Borderline Mother " is so good for

this.

You know how " normal " people have this internal wealth of

nurturing that comes from having a mother not a nada? You

know how they go into big smiles when they have a smell of

food, or smell their mother's perfume, or meet someone who

reminds them of their mother?

I don't have that. I have no nurturing memories. My kids do bec.

I've cooked with them and made them memories, but I've been

working from empty most of the time. I read books about

homemaking and try out things like cinnamon rolls. etc. The big

kids already have a wealth of memories based on my mothering

and I can see them passing them to the younger siblings.

But they don't know that I'm shooting from empty and making it

up as I go along. But I love that I am filling them up with good

memories.

when my kids where at the mean dour dreadful parochial school,

they had to take the bus. It was hard for them bec. they were

formerly backyard sunshine CA homeschooled kids, and now

they were on the bus in a Northeastern city, and it was gritty and

gray and the school was emotionally icy. We are still working

through the effects of that episode.

Anyway, I would walk the 6 blocks everyday to meet the

schoolbus and one day my big girl told me, " Oh Mommy, the best

part of the day is when I see you at the bus stop " .

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

Hi Minja,

Wouldn't it be wonderful if after reading that, one

could say *poof you're cured!* Unfortunately, it only

means we're the healthiest - doesn't mean we're

healthy. There are issues to sort through, thought

processes that need rearranging and behaviors to

modify. All in all, I'm still light years ahead of FOO

as I'm sure we all are.

We're on the right path Minja!

Cyndie

--- Minja Simpson wrote:

> Hi Cyndie

> Thanks for this. In our entire family, I'm the only

> one who has researched

> the nada problem and has some insight into the root

> of it - in fact, the

> only one who cared at all to figure out what on

> earth is going on. Does this

> mean I'm healthy?

> Minja

> > Re: Something I want to

> share...

> > I was reading Toxic Parents again last night and

> came

> > upon some interesting passages that I'd

> highlighted.

> > One of them being that the victim is often the

> > healthiest person in the family - because they ARE

> the

> > victim, they've had the worst experience. It's

> easiest

> > for them to see the truth - they have the most

> pain.

> > We may expect that other members in the family see

> and

> > feel the same way we do - when in reality, they

> just

> > don't.

> >

> > Cyndie

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/15/01 6:46:26 PM Central Standard Time,

Cyndie00@... writes:

<< Isn't it sad

that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

give her/him more than this? >>

I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell myself every day that she

loves me to the best of her ability. It's just that she can't do very much.

She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to do any better. It doesn't

make it right, it does make me feel better to view it this way.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/15/01 6:46:26 PM Central Standard Time,

Cyndie00@... writes:

<< Isn't it sad

that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

give her/him more than this? >>

I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell myself every day that she

loves me to the best of her ability. It's just that she can't do very much.

She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to do any better. It doesn't

make it right, it does make me feel better to view it this way.

[Guest guest]

--- thanksforthisday@... wrote:

> That is what I am trying to do. Oh it is hard

> sometimes. Today I

> was feeling " wobbly " about nada. I was remembering

> the good

> times we had and wondering if she missed me.

I don't recall ever having any good times with nada.

The only good I recall her giving or sharing is having

her cook fabulous Thanksgiving meals and Easter

dinners when we were children. Funny, now that I think

of it - that was IT! All it ever was that I clung to.

This is what I've idealized as family all these years.

Other than those Holiday meals there was never any

other bonding, sharing or - fun? Hah. Our interactions

have never been anything more than her miserable

suffering or her shaming of me. That was the extent of

our relationship. That bonding during the holiday

feasts were the extent of our familial relationship.

No wonder my brother only finds it only important

enough to want to be with me on the holidays.

That's all it's ever been. Isn't it amazing that I've

only just *really* realized this now? Isn't it sad

that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

give her/him more than this?

Amazing... that FOGging really must be some VERY

powerful stuff. I feel incredibly foolish.

Cyndie

Everyday another piece of the puzzle gets put into

place. *Flash* - that was the light bulb lighting up

the puzzle.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- thanksforthisday@... wrote:

> That is what I am trying to do. Oh it is hard

> sometimes. Today I

> was feeling " wobbly " about nada. I was remembering

> the good

> times we had and wondering if she missed me.

I don't recall ever having any good times with nada.

The only good I recall her giving or sharing is having

her cook fabulous Thanksgiving meals and Easter

dinners when we were children. Funny, now that I think

of it - that was IT! All it ever was that I clung to.

This is what I've idealized as family all these years.

Other than those Holiday meals there was never any

other bonding, sharing or - fun? Hah. Our interactions

have never been anything more than her miserable

suffering or her shaming of me. That was the extent of

our relationship. That bonding during the holiday

feasts were the extent of our familial relationship.

No wonder my brother only finds it only important

enough to want to be with me on the holidays.

That's all it's ever been. Isn't it amazing that I've

only just *really* realized this now? Isn't it sad

that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

give her/him more than this?

Amazing... that FOGging really must be some VERY

powerful stuff. I feel incredibly foolish.

Cyndie

Everyday another piece of the puzzle gets put into

place. *Flash* - that was the light bulb lighting up

the puzzle.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>

> << Isn't it sad

> that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

> give her/him more than this? >>

it is sad for kids to feel that. I know that somewhere my mother

has some attachment to me. I also know that for my sister she

has nothing. That hurts awfully, because I don't want nada to love

me and not love my sister.

But looking at things truthfully, she does not love my sister, or my

sister's kids, or my dead sister's kids the way she is attached to

mine. I don't know how to explain it, but that is how it is.

That is sad, because I see my sis still left in the dark and making

it on her own alone. My sis is much stronger now that she was

and has found real happiness in her 2nd marriage and with her

kids. She is an incredible mother and has boundless empathy

and compassion for people. I shake my head in amazement at

how wonderful she is and just don't understand why SHE was

on nada's non-existant child list. To this day.

My sister who died was bad split like this sister, but she made a

HUGE attempt in courting my mother, catering to her, buying her

plane tickets and nice presents, and on and on. She was going

to make nada love her, by golly, come what may. Nada likes

being catered to and fussed over. so it worked on the surface.

But when my sister died, the attention stopped. Nada has called

my sister's house maybe 2 times in the year since she died. She

is not in contact with my nephews. I think that is awful. But it is

true.

I look at it this way. I've sort of chosen to " leave the country " and

" go into exile " with my dear sister. We are emotional pioneers,

seeking out new and uncharted territory with the promise of the

happiness of a meaningful life.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

>

> << Isn't it sad

> that a mother could not love a child enough to want to

> give her/him more than this? >>

it is sad for kids to feel that. I know that somewhere my mother

has some attachment to me. I also know that for my sister she

has nothing. That hurts awfully, because I don't want nada to love

me and not love my sister.

But looking at things truthfully, she does not love my sister, or my

sister's kids, or my dead sister's kids the way she is attached to

mine. I don't know how to explain it, but that is how it is.

That is sad, because I see my sis still left in the dark and making

it on her own alone. My sis is much stronger now that she was

and has found real happiness in her 2nd marriage and with her

kids. She is an incredible mother and has boundless empathy

and compassion for people. I shake my head in amazement at

how wonderful she is and just don't understand why SHE was

on nada's non-existant child list. To this day.

My sister who died was bad split like this sister, but she made a

HUGE attempt in courting my mother, catering to her, buying her

plane tickets and nice presents, and on and on. She was going

to make nada love her, by golly, come what may. Nada likes

being catered to and fussed over. so it worked on the surface.

But when my sister died, the attention stopped. Nada has called

my sister's house maybe 2 times in the year since she died. She

is not in contact with my nephews. I think that is awful. But it is

true.

I look at it this way. I've sort of chosen to " leave the country " and

" go into exile " with my dear sister. We are emotional pioneers,

seeking out new and uncharted territory with the promise of the

happiness of a meaningful life.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

--- southernes@... wrote:

> I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell

> myself every day that she

> loves me to the best of her ability. It's just that

> she can't do very much.

> She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to

> do any better. It doesn't

> make it right, it does make me feel better to view

> it this way.

Southernes,

Thank you for your reply. However, I don't think that

my nada is capable of knowing what love is. I'm not

sure that as a KO that *I* can possibly conceive of

the all possibilities that the word love invokes as it

does for children who grew up living with it. I don't

think I am a good enough judge of it at this point to

be able to make that statement. I also don't think

that anyone else can tell me how I should I feel about

nadas love or that they can presume to know my nada

well enough to tell me that she really does love me.

You are however, I believe, correct to some degree and

I have to agree with that. But lets not minimize the

effect nada has had on my life by telling me my nada

loves me. That is incredibly invalidating. (My

brothers wife, this past spring - after I told her

what nada had done to me? Know what she said??? " Yes,

relationships between mothers and daughters are

special. " ) You might as well have said the same thing

to me. She's said what you said above...

I think you missed the whole point of the post you

were responding to. But thank you for bringing this

up. I needed a good healthy vent. If I may continue...

Southernes, what you wrote is exactly what I and

others have told me for years. What you wrote kept me

sitting in my shxt for much longer than I had to. It

kept me in denial and was a great manipulator of my

personal integretity and my right to my own feelings

about nada. nada is nada no matter if she loves

distortly or not - it doesn't excuse what she's done -

it only makes it forgiveable because she's got a

mental illness. But it doesn't change the fact that

she's damaged and controlled my life for all these

years. It also doesn't change the fact that her love

sucks.

If I may expound on nadas love a bit...

This is nadas love - I hate you, don't leave me. I

will tell everyone you hold dear in your heart what a

worthless whore you are so that no one else will love

you. I will stalk you by phone, day and night. I will

stalk the people in your life day and night. I will

leave you ugly distorted vile messages on your vm. I

will leave ugly distorted vile messages for your

husband on your vm. I will destroy your life. I will

tell your kids that they are shameful like I did to

you. I will never let you forget that you are my

daughter and that all of these things I have said to

you ARE you because they are me. I hate myself so much

that I will make sure you feel that hate and shame

about yourself so much that you will never forget

where you came from. I will make sure you cling to me

because you're all I have and if it takes destroying

your heart and soul and manipulate you with obligation

and pity for me I will do it because I hate myself so

much that I will do anything in the world to possess

your soul and spirit to give me the love I cannot give

myself OR YOU. Remember daughter (not even the

privielege of possessing my own name,) that you are

mine - all mine for the rest of your life. I would

rather see you dead than dessert me on this earth. You

are a baaaaaaad SHAMEFUL LITTLE GIRL AND I HATE YOU

WHEN YOU TELL ME I AM THE BAAAAAAD SHAMEFUL LITTLE

GIRL BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT AND YOU CAN NEVER BE RIGHT

BECAUSE *I AM THE MOTHER.* And when you are dead

because I've killed you like I did your two brothers,

I will come and claim my just glory as your MOTHER

because *I AM THE MOTHER.*

That is nadas love. You want it? You can have it.

But in the end, Southernes, you are right. I know that

she does love me. But yuk - I don't want that love. I

just don't. I'm sorry that you took my post and

decided to reply to it out of context. And I'm sorry

to let you have it here. But I've just had that line

shoved down my throat one too many times and I really

won't stand to have my thoughts and feelings

invalidated by anyone anymore. I really dislike being

misunderstood.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- southernes@... wrote:

> I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell

> myself every day that she

> loves me to the best of her ability. It's just that

> she can't do very much.

> She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to

> do any better. It doesn't

> make it right, it does make me feel better to view

> it this way.

Southernes,

Thank you for your reply. However, I don't think that

my nada is capable of knowing what love is. I'm not

sure that as a KO that *I* can possibly conceive of

the all possibilities that the word love invokes as it

does for children who grew up living with it. I don't

think I am a good enough judge of it at this point to

be able to make that statement. I also don't think

that anyone else can tell me how I should I feel about

nadas love or that they can presume to know my nada

well enough to tell me that she really does love me.

You are however, I believe, correct to some degree and

I have to agree with that. But lets not minimize the

effect nada has had on my life by telling me my nada

loves me. That is incredibly invalidating. (My

brothers wife, this past spring - after I told her

what nada had done to me? Know what she said??? " Yes,

relationships between mothers and daughters are

special. " ) You might as well have said the same thing

to me. She's said what you said above...

I think you missed the whole point of the post you

were responding to. But thank you for bringing this

up. I needed a good healthy vent. If I may continue...

Southernes, what you wrote is exactly what I and

others have told me for years. What you wrote kept me

sitting in my shxt for much longer than I had to. It

kept me in denial and was a great manipulator of my

personal integretity and my right to my own feelings

about nada. nada is nada no matter if she loves

distortly or not - it doesn't excuse what she's done -

it only makes it forgiveable because she's got a

mental illness. But it doesn't change the fact that

she's damaged and controlled my life for all these

years. It also doesn't change the fact that her love

sucks.

If I may expound on nadas love a bit...

This is nadas love - I hate you, don't leave me. I

will tell everyone you hold dear in your heart what a

worthless whore you are so that no one else will love

you. I will stalk you by phone, day and night. I will

stalk the people in your life day and night. I will

leave you ugly distorted vile messages on your vm. I

will leave ugly distorted vile messages for your

husband on your vm. I will destroy your life. I will

tell your kids that they are shameful like I did to

you. I will never let you forget that you are my

daughter and that all of these things I have said to

you ARE you because they are me. I hate myself so much

that I will make sure you feel that hate and shame

about yourself so much that you will never forget

where you came from. I will make sure you cling to me

because you're all I have and if it takes destroying

your heart and soul and manipulate you with obligation

and pity for me I will do it because I hate myself so

much that I will do anything in the world to possess

your soul and spirit to give me the love I cannot give

myself OR YOU. Remember daughter (not even the

privielege of possessing my own name,) that you are

mine - all mine for the rest of your life. I would

rather see you dead than dessert me on this earth. You

are a baaaaaaad SHAMEFUL LITTLE GIRL AND I HATE YOU

WHEN YOU TELL ME I AM THE BAAAAAAD SHAMEFUL LITTLE

GIRL BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT AND YOU CAN NEVER BE RIGHT

BECAUSE *I AM THE MOTHER.* And when you are dead

because I've killed you like I did your two brothers,

I will come and claim my just glory as your MOTHER

because *I AM THE MOTHER.*

That is nadas love. You want it? You can have it.

But in the end, Southernes, you are right. I know that

she does love me. But yuk - I don't want that love. I

just don't. I'm sorry that you took my post and

decided to reply to it out of context. And I'm sorry

to let you have it here. But I've just had that line

shoved down my throat one too many times and I really

won't stand to have my thoughts and feelings

invalidated by anyone anymore. I really dislike being

misunderstood.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- southernes@... wrote:

> I don't think that she doesn't love you. I tell

> myself every day that she

> loves me to the best of her ability. It's just that

> she can't do very much.

> She really doesn't have the wiring in her brain to

> do any better. It doesn't

> make it right, it does make me feel better to view

> it this way.

Southernes,

Thank you for your reply. However, I don't think that

my nada is capable of knowing what love is. I'm not

sure that as a KO that *I* can possibly conceive of

the all possibilities that the word love invokes as it

does for children who grew up living with it. I don't

think I am a good enough judge of it at this point to

be able to make that statement. I also don't think

that anyone else can tell me how I should I feel about

nadas love or that they can presume to know my nada

well enough to tell me that she really does love me.

You are however, I believe, correct to some degree and

I have to agree with that. But lets not minimize the

effect nada has had on my life by telling me my nada

loves me. That is incredibly invalidating. (My

brothers wife, this past spring - after I told her

what nada had done to me? Know what she said??? " Yes,

relationships between mothers and daughters are

special. " ) You might as well have said the same thing

to me. She's said what you said above...

I think you missed the whole point of the post you

were responding to. But thank you for bringing this

up. I needed a good healthy vent. If I may continue...

Southernes, what you wrote is exactly what I and

others have told me for years. What you wrote kept me

sitting in my shxt for much longer than I had to. It

kept me in denial and was a great manipulator of my

personal integretity and my right to my own feelings

about nada. nada is nada no matter if she loves

distortly or not - it doesn't excuse what she's done -

it only makes it forgiveable because she's got a

mental illness. But it doesn't change the fact that

she's damaged and controlled my life for all these

years. It also doesn't change the fact that her love

sucks.

If I may expound on nadas love a bit...

This is nadas love - I hate you, don't leave me. I

will tell everyone you hold dear in your heart what a

worthless whore you are so that no one else will love

you. I will stalk you by phone, day and night. I will

stalk the people in your life day and night. I will

leave you ugly distorted vile messages on your vm. I

will leave ugly distorted vile messages for your

husband on your vm. I will destroy your life. I will

tell your kids that they are shameful like I did to

you. I will never let you forget that you are my

daughter and that all of these things I have said to

you ARE you because they are me. I hate myself so much

that I will make sure you feel that hate and shame

about yourself so much that you will never forget

where you came from. I will make sure you cling to me

because you're all I have and if it takes destroying

your heart and soul and manipulate you with obligation

and pity for me I will do it because I hate myself so

much that I will do anything in the world to possess

your soul and spirit to give me the love I cannot give

myself OR YOU. Remember daughter (not even the

privielege of possessing my own name,) that you are

mine - all mine for the rest of your life. I would

rather see you dead than dessert me on this earth. You

are a baaaaaaad SHAMEFUL LITTLE GIRL AND I HATE YOU

WHEN YOU TELL ME I AM THE BAAAAAAD SHAMEFUL LITTLE

GIRL BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT AND YOU CAN NEVER BE RIGHT

BECAUSE *I AM THE MOTHER.* And when you are dead

because I've killed you like I did your two brothers,

I will come and claim my just glory as your MOTHER

because *I AM THE MOTHER.*

That is nadas love. You want it? You can have it.

But in the end, Southernes, you are right. I know that

she does love me. But yuk - I don't want that love. I

just don't. I'm sorry that you took my post and

decided to reply to it out of context. And I'm sorry

to let you have it here. But I've just had that line

shoved down my throat one too many times and I really

won't stand to have my thoughts and feelings

invalidated by anyone anymore. I really dislike being

misunderstood.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

You're a sweetie Kathleen...:0)

--- thanksforthisday@... wrote:

>

> >

> > << Isn't it sad

> > that a mother could not love a child enough to

> want to

> > give her/him more than this? >>

>

> it is sad for kids to feel that. I know that

> somewhere my mother

> has some attachment to me. I also know that for my

> sister she

> has nothing. That hurts awfully, because I don't

> want nada to love

> me and not love my sister.

You are a generous and empathetic person to want this

for your sisters. My SIL relished in her limelight and

could have cared less if anyone else got MILs love.

>

> But looking at things truthfully, she does not love

> my sister, or my

> sister's kids, or my dead sister's kids the way she

> is attached to

> mine. I don't know how to explain it, but that is

> how it is.

Yes, and that is what it is like in my Inlaws family.

There is blatant favoritism. The best gift we can give

to our children is mutuality and respect for

individuality and differences. That is love.

>

> That is sad, because I see my sis still left in the

> dark and making

> it on her own alone. My sis is much stronger now

> that she was

> and has found real happiness in her 2nd marriage and

> with her

> kids. She is an incredible mother and has boundless

> empathy

> and compassion for people. I shake my head in

> amazement at

> how wonderful she is and just don't understand why

> SHE was

> on nada's non-existant child list. To this day.

I don't get it either, but that's us. Nada thinks

differently. She has a distorted brain which has told

itself so many lies that it doesn't know how not to

believe them anymore. It's like they've found

different parts of themselves in each child with which

to identify specific projections onto. Of course, in

their reality - what they think defines a person once

it's projected onto them is reality.

>

> My sister who died was bad split like this sister,

> but she made a

> HUGE attempt in courting my mother, catering to her,

> buying her

> plane tickets and nice presents, and on and on. She

> was going

> to make nada love her, by golly, come what may. Nada

> likes

> being catered to and fussed over. so it worked on

> the surface.

> But when my sister died, the attention stopped. Nada

> has called

> my sister's house maybe 2 times in the year since

> she died. She

> is not in contact with my nephews. I think that is

> awful. But it is

> true.

It is awful and it is true.

>

> I look at it this way. I've sort of chosen to " leave

> the country " and

> " go into exile " with my dear sister. We are

> emotional pioneers,

> seeking out new and uncharted territory with the

> promise of the

> happiness of a meaningful life.

hehehe! You're a sweetie...:0)

Cyndie

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

You're a sweetie Kathleen...:0)

--- thanksforthisday@... wrote:

>

> >

> > << Isn't it sad

> > that a mother could not love a child enough to

> want to

> > give her/him more than this? >>

>

> it is sad for kids to feel that. I know that

> somewhere my mother

> has some attachment to me. I also know that for my

> sister she

> has nothing. That hurts awfully, because I don't

> want nada to love

> me and not love my sister.

You are a generous and empathetic person to want this

for your sisters. My SIL relished in her limelight and

could have cared less if anyone else got MILs love.

>

> But looking at things truthfully, she does not love

> my sister, or my

> sister's kids, or my dead sister's kids the way she

> is attached to

> mine. I don't know how to explain it, but that is

> how it is.

Yes, and that is what it is like in my Inlaws family.

There is blatant favoritism. The best gift we can give

to our children is mutuality and respect for

individuality and differences. That is love.

>

> That is sad, because I see my sis still left in the

> dark and making

> it on her own alone. My sis is much stronger now

> that she was

> and has found real happiness in her 2nd marriage and

> with her

> kids. She is an incredible mother and has boundless

> empathy

> and compassion for people. I shake my head in

> amazement at

> how wonderful she is and just don't understand why

> SHE was

> on nada's non-existant child list. To this day.

I don't get it either, but that's us. Nada thinks

differently. She has a distorted brain which has told

itself so many lies that it doesn't know how not to

believe them anymore. It's like they've found

different parts of themselves in each child with which

to identify specific projections onto. Of course, in

their reality - what they think defines a person once

it's projected onto them is reality.

>

> My sister who died was bad split like this sister,

> but she made a

> HUGE attempt in courting my mother, catering to her,

> buying her

> plane tickets and nice presents, and on and on. She

> was going

> to make nada love her, by golly, come what may. Nada

> likes

> being catered to and fussed over. so it worked on

> the surface.

> But when my sister died, the attention stopped. Nada

> has called

> my sister's house maybe 2 times in the year since

> she died. She

> is not in contact with my nephews. I think that is

> awful. But it is

> true.

It is awful and it is true.

>

> I look at it this way. I've sort of chosen to " leave

> the country " and

> " go into exile " with my dear sister. We are

> emotional pioneers,

> seeking out new and uncharted territory with the

> promise of the

> happiness of a meaningful life.

hehehe! You're a sweetie...:0)

Cyndie

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

You're a sweetie Kathleen...:0)

--- thanksforthisday@... wrote:

>

> >

> > << Isn't it sad

> > that a mother could not love a child enough to

> want to

> > give her/him more than this? >>

>

> it is sad for kids to feel that. I know that

> somewhere my mother

> has some attachment to me. I also know that for my

> sister she

> has nothing. That hurts awfully, because I don't

> want nada to love

> me and not love my sister.

You are a generous and empathetic person to want this

for your sisters. My SIL relished in her limelight and

could have cared less if anyone else got MILs love.

>

> But looking at things truthfully, she does not love

> my sister, or my

> sister's kids, or my dead sister's kids the way she

> is attached to

> mine. I don't know how to explain it, but that is

> how it is.

Yes, and that is what it is like in my Inlaws family.

There is blatant favoritism. The best gift we can give

to our children is mutuality and respect for

individuality and differences. That is love.

>

> That is sad, because I see my sis still left in the

> dark and making

> it on her own alone. My sis is much stronger now

> that she was

> and has found real happiness in her 2nd marriage and

> with her

> kids. She is an incredible mother and has boundless

> empathy

> and compassion for people. I shake my head in

> amazement at

> how wonderful she is and just don't understand why

> SHE was

> on nada's non-existant child list. To this day.

I don't get it either, but that's us. Nada thinks

differently. She has a distorted brain which has told

itself so many lies that it doesn't know how not to

believe them anymore. It's like they've found

different parts of themselves in each child with which

to identify specific projections onto. Of course, in

their reality - what they think defines a person once

it's projected onto them is reality.

>

> My sister who died was bad split like this sister,

> but she made a

> HUGE attempt in courting my mother, catering to her,

> buying her

> plane tickets and nice presents, and on and on. She

> was going

> to make nada love her, by golly, come what may. Nada

> likes

> being catered to and fussed over. so it worked on

> the surface.

> But when my sister died, the attention stopped. Nada

> has called

> my sister's house maybe 2 times in the year since

> she died. She

> is not in contact with my nephews. I think that is

> awful. But it is

> true.

It is awful and it is true.

>

> I look at it this way. I've sort of chosen to " leave

> the country " and

> " go into exile " with my dear sister. We are

> emotional pioneers,

> seeking out new and uncharted territory with the

> promise of the

> happiness of a meaningful life.

hehehe! You're a sweetie...:0)

Cyndie

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I apologize for trying to fix things! Pass the flea powder!

Ilene

[Guest guest]

I apologize for trying to fix things! Pass the flea powder!

Ilene